ysabetwordsmith | Story: "Hairpins" Part 29

This story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."

Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.

Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28.

NOTE: The final two chapters are mostly adorable fluff during the next game night. However, they also involve some very sensitive territory for Bruce, and Phil has to navigate some delicate personal boundaries with not much verbal input from Bruce. Be advised of deep intimacy and tentative growth.

"Hairpins" Part 29

Bruce showed up for game night wearing worn track pants and a floppy denim shirt with one button gone and another hanging by a thread. It made a forlorn contrast to Clint's cheery purple flannels, Natka's dancing bears, and Tony's replica of the Captain America uniform. Bruce looked at them and tried to slip under the coffee table. He could be erratic about close contact with people, alternating between clingy and avoidant. At least that was an improvement over hiding all the time.

Uncle Phil sat down on the couch in his bathrobe and patted the cushion. "Bruce, would you sit here with me for just a minute?" he invited. "I want to show you something."

Bruce wedged himself into the far corner of the couch. "What?"

Phil held out a soft package, loosely wrapped in tissue to avoid making it seem like a big deal. "I thought you might like to fit in a little better. This should help. Go on, you can take a peek."

Slowly Bruce pushed the paper open. The brown plaid pajamas unfolded into his lap. "For me?" he breathed.

"Yes, those are for you," Phil said. "What do you think?"

"Nice," Bruce said, patting at the fabric with the flat of his left hand. Then he started pawing at the buttons on his shirt.

"Wait, you should change in the bathroom," Phil said. "Enjoy your privacy now that you have it."

Bruce stopped moving and just sat there. His huge dark eyes gazed up at Phil, swimming with some unspoken need.

Phil wracked his mind for possibilities. Sometimes his littles needed things they couldn't articulate, especially the 'younger' ones. Bruce was skittish to begin with, sometimes touch-resistant, and odd about clothes in general. Left to his own devices, he dressed like a rag-bag and wouldn't buy anything unless he had to, although Tony made repeated efforts to coax him into nicer clothes.

No wonder Bruce doesn't see the point to wearing anything good, Phil mused. After all, he goes through clothes pretty quickly when we get called out.

That plucked at Phil's memory, bringing up all the times he'd seen Bruce in shreds of fabric or nothing at all. Some of those were recent, but others went back to the time when SHIELD had kept watch from afar. Sometimes it was Hulk's fault; other times people just handled Bruce roughly, forcing him into or out of clothes depending on what they wanted from him. That made Phil angry even in retrospect.

Maybe Bruce wants help with something simple that he could do for himself, but would rather have me do for him, Phil thought. Maybe he wants to undress in a safer, more controlled environment and be seen on purpose ... or to be dressed, covered up instead of exposed. For certain, he needs to make his own decisions and get treated gently for a change.

"Would you like a hand getting into your jammies?" Phil offered.

Bruce nibbled on his lip, then gave a minute nod.

Phil held out a hand. "Come along," he said.

Bruce inched forward to slip his fingers into Phil's hand. "Okay."

* * *

Notes:

Some people disapprove of sloppy dressing, while others think it's great. People also vary in how long they wear clothes before discarding them as "worn out." Baggy clothes may be a practical adaptation to wilderness conditions or a symptom of depression. Bruce dresses the way he does as a combination of past poverty, indifference to self-care, and the needs of sharing a body with someone several times his size.

Another consideration is body image. Child abuse often causes problems with body image; survivors may use clothes to hide in, divert attention, or conceal injuries. Men as well as women may develop body image issues. Bruce often feels betrayed by and disconnected from his body, so he doesn't always take good care of it even when resources are available. There are tips for helping children form a positive body image.

Neglect can damage childhood development, impairing brain functions and emotional regulation. This often creates disorganized attachment. For example, Bruce shows signs of fearful-avoidant behavior. Caring parents or other guardians can help overcome this damage with extra patience and nurturing. In particular, notice that the boundary violations of sexual abuse closely mimic the effects of the experimentation and enslavement that Bruce survived; look at the parallel differentials of power, knowledge, and gratification. That means Uncle Phil has to work harder to make Bruce feel safe and supported.

Sensitive, withdrawn children may need extra support from adults. They often hesitate to join activities, even if they want to try. There are ways to encourage new experiences and introduce children to group activities. Uncle Phil is good at coaxing rather than pressuring his littles to indulge in game night opportunities.

Feeling unworthy can limit people's options. They may think they don't deserve anything good, or that poor people shouldn't want nice things. This problem applies to many of the Avengers. There are ways to stop thinking that you deserve nothing, such as writing about it.

There are many reasons why people don't ask for help, especially if they have tried in the past and it turned out badly. It's possible to encourage help-seeking behavior, often tailored for specific groups such as adolescents or men. Such reluctance and encouragement apply not just to major issues such as child abuse or mental illness, but also to everyday challenges. Know how to ask for help when you need it. As wary as Bruce seems in this chapter, he's actually making great progress by asking -- however silently -- for help from Uncle Phil.

Body privacy and safety are basic necessities. It takes extra sensitivity to talk with abuse survivors. Parenting sexually abused children requires special care in teaching privacy and boundaries. Bruce's horrible childhood, poverty, Hulk incidents, and assault by various organizations have left his sense of body-right in tatters. He may feel embarrassed about being naked, but he often doesn't feel that he has any control over it.

Children can have a hard time handling abuse. It may do lasting damage, and PTSD can manifest differently in survivors of child abuse, making it difficult to establish healthy boundaries. The most crucial step is to enable body awareness and empowerment. There is a very subtle conversation going on here as Bruce offers a fundamental piece of body-trust, Uncle Phil checks to make sure that it's what Bruce really wants, and then helps find a way forward that respects everyone's boundaries. Bruce needs both an objective check on his shaky navigation, and someone who can accept what he offers so that he has a chance to decide what happens with his body in safe space. Because he's so 'young' he needs more intimate contact than some of the 'older' littles, things he didn't get enough of growing up.

[To be concluded in Part 30 ...]

Current Mood: busy

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

dialecticdreamer

It's interesting to see the way you portray Bruce as an adult and Bruce as a four-year-old. As an adult, the major symptom of his crappy childhood- the 'is-everybody-else-calm-and-safe-to-be-around' fawning behavior and the tight, 'disappearing' body language could have come more from his problems with Ross and the Hulk, It could have come from being treated like a lab specimen by the vast majority of authority figures he's run into since the accident, and it is most likely certainly a combination of the things I've listed.

But Bruce's four-year-old body language is very different. Game nights let us see into /what Bruce thought of himself/ at age four, and in a lot of ways there's a MOUNTAIN of more damage there. Clearly, Betty has already had a positive effect on him, in ways he doesn't yet recognize.

The canon from the Hulk movie is that Bruce went into foster care sometime WHEN he was four. Why did Bruce choose that age? Why not three, or five? Not merely to match Tony, though that was his spoken reason. Maybe, because it gave him a chance to explore how the situation with his foster family /could/ have developed.

Phil is working out some of the details /everyone/ else in his life has overlooked, for decades.

Bruce is finally putting a direct but tentative weight on the bond forming between himself and Uncle Phil, testing to see what happens. By breaking the chapter where you did, there's only a slight feeling of suspense; Phil has already done the hardest work to identify Bruce's needs, and the only question is in the details of how things will play out in private.

I fully expect Bruce to have a sudden bout of bewildered tears, and his usual response of trying to stuff everything down-- Phil's going to have to tread gently in acknowledging the emotions as genuine and valid but NOT push Bruce into talking about it.

Because that-- a truly safe adult who didn't heap expectations on Bruce due to /x/-- is one of the things he didn't get, even after escaping his family life into foster care. (If he had, he would be much closer in mannerisms to the mainstream of 'shy geek'.)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> It's interesting to see the way you portray Bruce as an adult and Bruce as a four-year-old. <<

Part of that may be because I got adult!Bruce primarily from The Avengers but borrowed significant amounts of little!Bruce from Hulk.

>> As an adult, the major symptom of his crappy childhood- the 'is-everybody-else-calm-and-safe-to-be-around' fawning behavior and the tight, 'disappearing' body language could have come more from his problems with Ross and the Hulk, It could have come from being treated like a lab specimen by the vast majority of authority figures he's run into since the accident, and it is most likely certainly a combination of the things I've listed. <<

Yes, it's a combination. Bruce is very resigned and withdrawn. He's had long enough to incorporate the idea that people take advantage of him and nothing he can do really makes a difference.

>> But Bruce's four-year-old body language is very different. Game nights let us see into what Bruce thought of himself at age four, and in a lot of ways there's a MOUNTAIN of more damage there. <<

Yes, there is a lot more damage. It's also more feeling than thought. Adult!Bruce lives in his head. Little!Bruce is more in touch with his emotions, but doesn't know how to express them, so it takes a while for any of that to come out. He started repressing very early, as some abused children do. Also Hulk is much closer to the surface -- but as we've seen, not inclined to pop out, because game night is where Bruce starts expressing emotions himself.

Uncle Phil sets this up right at the beginning by asserting that Bruce and Natka are allowed to feel -- and show -- their wariness of each other. Once they're allowed to work through it in a safe environment, it starts to lose its grip on them.

>> Clearly, Betty has already had a positive effect on him, in ways he doesn't yet recognize. <<

Absolutely. There are hints of this in the next Hulk story, which shows JARVIS handling the early scene when Bruce hurts himself and Hulks out in the tower. Hulk keeps thinking of Betty.

>> The canon from the Hulk movie is that Bruce went into foster care sometime WHEN he was four. <<

For some reason I've got it in my head that Bruce's mother was killed when he was a toddler, so that's the way I've been writing this. Given his pernicious idea that family is bad, he may have bummed around with relatives before winding up in care.

>> Why did Bruce choose that age? Why not three, or five? Not merely to match Tony, though that was his spoken reason. <<

Left to his own devices, I think he would be two or three. He has shifted that young before. It's Tony who pulls him older. They don't like it when Bruce is older than Tony; they found that out the hard way. But Bruce yearns to be close to him. I think Bruce shifts around the most because of his erratic personality, but also because he can't feel himself very clearly. That makes it hard to know what to do without trial and error.

>> Maybe, because it gave him a chance to explore how the situation with his foster family could have developed. <<

That's possible.

>> Phil is working out some of the details everyone else in his life has overlooked, for decades. <<

Yes, that's true. Phil is one deep reader.

>> Bruce is finally putting a direct but tentative weight on the bond forming between himself and Uncle Phil, testing to see what happens. <<

Sooth. Bruce has a compulsion about testing people and situations, much as Tony does. Fortunately Uncle Phil can take the weight.

>> By breaking the chapter where you did, there's only a slight feeling of suspense; Phil has already done the hardest work to identify Bruce's needs, and the only question is in the details of how things will play out in private. <<

Likely so. The scene breaks are primarily set by wordcount; there are only a few that I set in advance.

>> I fully expect Bruce to have a sudden bout of bewildered tears, and his usual response of trying to stuff everything down-- Phil's going to have to tread gently in acknowledging the emotions as genuine and valid but NOT push Bruce into talking about it. <<

Sadly, Bruce isn't that far along yet. He is in no way ready to deal with strong feelings, so they only creep out in quiet ways.

>> Because that-- a truly safe adult who didn't heap expectations on Bruce due to /x/-- is one of the things he didn't get, even after escaping his family life into foster care. (If he had, he would be much closer in mannerisms to the mainstream of 'shy geek'.) <<

There is some delicate handling of that in the final scene, with Phil supporting Bruce's very tentative explorations of other people.

In foster care, as in dysfunctional families, there is a strong trend for the quiet children to get overlooked. There's just too much else demanding attention to stop and worry about anything that doesn't. So it's a very effective strategy for Bruce, who wants to be ignored. Unfortunately it means that none of his emotional injuries got treated, and now everything has grown together all wrong.

Which, yeah, now that I think about it is the exact emotional equivalent of all those times when Steve got hit by a tank and was so healed up by the time they got back to camp that everything had to be rebroken before it could be fixed right. No wonder Bruce is dragging his feet, later in the storyline, about not wanting to repair his relationship with Hulk and not wanting to give up the bad tape. I think if Steve and Bucky make the connection with untreated injuries healing wrong, they'll understand Bruce-and-Hulk a lot better.

It's interesting, I think Bruce is the kind to pick off a band-aid very slowly, while Hulk is the rip-it-quick kind. It shows in how they relate to the team. Bruce is extremely hesitant. Hulk is volatile and easily upset, but he also adapts fast to new situations and therefore goes through the initial unpleasant stages sooner.

From:

dialecticdreamer

>> For some reason I've got it in my head that Bruce's mother was killed when he was a toddler, so that's the way I've been writing this. Given his pernicious idea that family is bad, he may have bummed around with relatives before winding up in care.<<

You may want to sit through Hulk (2003) again. However, the flashback showing his father killing his mother is clearly after the one with her smiling at him as a four-year-old, while chatting with a female adult at the dining area.-- Total aside-- Notice how the flashbacks only show the parents interacting with Bruce separately? They're TOGETHER only in the scene where she dies. That implies a metric crap-ton about his family dynamics, right there. (I am DEFINITELY going to try to watch that again this weekend, now that I'm questioning accuracy of recall.)

But statistically, yes, he's likely to have bounced through every relative on either side until they'd exhausted all the options before placing Bruce with non-family foster parents. Given the craptastic job his parents displayed, that's likely to mean a lot MORE abuse to add to the roster.

Also given that statistics hover right around 1 in 4 boys being sexually abused WHILE in foster care, it doesn't immediately mean that any of THOSE placements were safe, either.-- That stat is separate from physical or emotional abuse incidents, just to really scare a sane person!

To top it all off, it takes legal procedures, with the resulting red tape,to strip an incarcerated parent of legal rights. His father was sentenced for murder, but for the whole duration of the elder Banner's incarceration before and during trial, Bruce would have been subjected to SHORT-TERM stays. That's at best a new family every few weeks. Once he reached the local official preschool enrollment date, that also meant a new school, new teacher(s), et cetera. Only after his father was convicted of murder would the foster system be allowed to place Bruce with the long-term intention of either stable fosterage or adoption.

If his father had ANY friends in the military hierarchy, it could've been quite easy to make Bruce a legal orphan, in complete limbo in terms of who actually had custody, because as far as I can find, it takes a military tribunal to strip parental rights of an active-duty service person. Was Brian Banner a civilian consultant, or military? It makes a difference. Don't even try to work out the reasons why prison /transportation/ regulations are allowed to strip parents of even the CHOICE of whether to attend a custody hearing, though, as it's a Kafkaesque nightmare.

For a basic look at the California dual system (state and privatized) look at: http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-foster-care-dto,0,5583241.htmlstory#axzz2zvqKqI33

Most specifically, look at the data analysis AFTER the body of the article, which is mostly "how did things go so horribly wrong?" but slants the problem against privatized foster care while downplaying the accusations made and proven against state-approved homes at the same time. Either way, Bruce is not in for an easy time, even after the horrible traumas he's already been through at age four.

All told, there's likely to be a history of rejection after rejection after bewildering transitions all coming AFTER that first emergency placement at age four, when his father was arrested. He'd have a few days to a week with that family while other relatives were sought.

The comparison to re-breaking bones resonates with me as particularly apt.

Especially given that it's recurring damage that could've been prevented if he'd been placed with someone like Uncle Phil for long enough to actually HEAL.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> You may want to sit through Hulk (2003) again. <<

I would really rather not. It's awful. Part of the problem I have is that it blurs together in my mind with the 2008 Incredible Hulk movie. Then too, I throw in bits of other Hulk canon, so mine is really a mix; it's not an exact replica of anything.

>> However, the flashback showing his father killing his mother is clearly after the one with her smiling at him as a four-year-old, while chatting with a female adult at the dining area.<<

I think I'm just going to have to call this a divergence point. The time of death for Bruce's mother does vary across canon. So for this series, it was toddler age.

>> -- Total aside-- Notice how the flashbacks only show the parents interacting with Bruce separately? They're TOGETHER only in the scene where she dies. That implies a metric crap-ton about his family dynamics, right there. <<

Painfully true, and thanks for pointing that out.

Have you also noticed that Betty is a lot like Bruce's mother, only tough as masonry nails? Betty is eerily adept at mothering Bruce-and-Hulk when they need it, yet still managing a romantic relationship. Some people are just that flexible. And she is nobody's easy meat. Her father may still manage to abuse her but she makes the bastard work for it.

>> (I am DEFINITELY going to try to watch that again this weekend, now that I'm questioning accuracy of recall.) <<

Feel free to continue feeback on it.

>> But statistically, yes, he's likely to have bounced through every relative on either side until they'd exhausted all the options before placing Bruce with non-family foster parents. Given the craptastic job his parents displayed, that's likely to mean a lot MORE abuse to add to the roster. <<

That makes sense. More neglect and physical abuse from people who are supposed to love him would inure him to the idea of it.

>> Also given that statistics hover right around 1 in 4 boys being sexually abused WHILE in foster care, it doesn't immediately mean that any of THOSE placements were safe, either.-- That stat is separate from physical or emotional abuse incidents, just to really scare a sane person! <<

Yes. I'm inclined to think that full-on rape is unlikely. Nothing else has really healed, so I don't think a sexual one would have, and he seems functional with Betty. But things like inappropriate touching, visual displays, or other boundary violations are very possible.

The way Bruce hides in his clothes is very suggestive of bodily trespass. So is the fact that my Bruce absolutely hates being tickled, to the point of violent or panic-stricken reaction. So far it's only been mentioned obliquely, but both Bruce and Betty are dead serious about that as a Hard Limit. Tickling can be a manifestation of sexual abuse, and it's hard to deal with because so few people do take it seriously.

>> To top it all off, it takes legal procedures, with the resulting red tape,to strip an incarcerated parent of legal rights. His father was sentenced for murder, but for the whole duration of the elder Banner's incarceration before and during trial, Bruce would have been subjected to SHORT-TERM stays. That's at best a new family every few weeks. <<

So that trains Bruce in moving often, not bothering with possessions or friends or any other attachments because he knows it won't last. Nowhere is really home. Family is bad. Connections are lies or manipulations. Nobody really cares. It is safer to go unnoticed than to attract attention.

>> Only after his father was convicted of murder would the foster system be allowed to place Bruce with the long-term intention of either stable fosterage or adoption. <<

And by then it was too late, Bruce was unable to form a stable attachment because he couldn't believe it would last. It probably didn't. He might have gone a year or two between placements rather than weeks, but kids that broken have Problems and it's not rare for a family to hand them back.

>> If his father had ANY friends in the military hierarchy, it could've been quite easy to make Bruce a legal orphan, in complete limbo in terms of who actually had custody, because as far as I can find, it takes a military tribunal to strip parental rights of an active-duty service person. <<

Given the high level of material he worked with, I figure Brian Banner had some powerful friends with whom he exchanged favors.

>> Was Brian Banner a civilian consultant, or military? <<

I'm inclined to say military scientist. That would contribute to Bruce's extreme (and well-founded) aversion to all things military, as well as his insistence on remaining a civilian contractor himself.

>> All told, there's likely to be a history of rejection after rejection after bewildering transitions all coming AFTER that first emergency placement at age four, when his father was arrested. He'd have a few days to a week with that family while other relatives were sought. <<

Yes, the shuffling must have caused a tremendous amount of damage right when he most needed stability.

>> The comparison to re-breaking bones resonates with me as particularly apt. <<

... including the part where, if a freshly broken bone is kept moving, it can't set properly and is pretty much guaranteed to heal wrong.

This is why good mental first aid advises restoring agency as soon as people can handle it, and helping them feel safe again. You can't fix the problem until the shock wears off, but you can kind of immobilize the injury to keep it from getting worse. Sadly, there is almost no effort to teach mental first aid.

>> Especially given that it's recurring damage that could've been prevented if he'd been placed with someone like Uncle Phil for long enough to actually HEAL. <<

Yes. However, I think this does give us one more clue: that initial placement probably was with someone like Uncle Phil. It would make sense to place a freshly traumatized child with someone who could keep him from hurting himself or going completely catatonic -- the equivalent of intensive care. But those are in extremely short supply, so they're only for emergency use. As soon as another placement was found, Bruce would get transferred out to make room for the next fresh casualty.

This is why we have a little!Bruce who is able to hide under the coffee table instead of pretending that everything is fine. He got just a tiny taste of real support to plant the subconscious idea that hope is a non-zero value. He may not even remember it, that was probably Hulk's work for the most part, but it's in there.

From:

dialecticdreamer

How long would the couple need to do some quality bandaging and shoring up of Bruce's emotions?
If he's my age, the rules at the time were much shorter- 3-7 days, with 7 days being the legal MAX, ever, for the area I know about.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Well, emotional wounds run slower than physical ones in many ways. EMTs divide injuries into:
* things that will kill your patient in five minutes.
* things that will kill your patient in an hour.
* things that will kill your patient today.
* things you don't really care about.

So a week is about what it takes for the first shock to wear off. That's when the worst compounding damage can be done, when people are highly likely to do stuff like walk in front of a bus accidentally or on purpose because they just aren't able to function normally right after a major trauma. Memories often don't set clearly during this time. But the emotional sense can still come through.

That first support isn't about repair, it's all damage control. Actually fixing things once Bruce came back to himself would've taken longer, but that's a different ball that got dropped.

From:

dialecticdreamer

Yeah, given those parameters, all Bruce probably remembers is a vague sense of /pause/ in the shock, and likely blended the features of the foster-mother with his own mother's. There may be less of a surviving impression of the foster father, especially if he had to be careful when approaching Bruce at all.

I'd love to know what Hulk remembers, and how he stores it. (Sounds, smells, emotions? How sequenced?)

Huh, certain markers, trying to offset a word for emphasis, actually make it disappear. It's in the text when I edit, though.

Edited (missing noun) Date: 2014-04-26 04:03 am (UTC)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Yeah, given those parameters, all Bruce probably remembers is a vague sense of pause in the shock, and likely blended the features of the foster-mother with his own mother's. <<

Likely so -- if Bruce remembers any of it at all. I suspect Hulk may have been the one dealing with the mess. He's usually a crisis-response headmate, but he's the one who gets stuck holding the bag whenever Bruce rabbits.

It makes me wonder if the resonance from the emergency foster care might be part of what lets Hulk leave game night for Bruce -- that it would be just familiar enough for Hulk to feel secure in hanging back, that the space was safe for Bruce.

>> There may be less of a surviving impression of the foster father, especially if he had to be careful when approaching Bruce at all. <<

Also possibly true.

>> I'd love to know what Hulk remembers, and how he stores it. (Sounds, smells, emotions? How sequenced?) <<

Memory is a problem for both of them. Historically they have tended to lose pieces in transit between forms, but also, they have the typical abuse pattern in that things often just don't get stored, or don't get stored where anyone can find them. Factual data, yes; personal events, frequently no.

Hulk experiences the world more through feelings than through thoughts. He relates strongly to the senses of smell/taste and touch, both of which Bruce has articulated in canon. So when I write Hulk, I tend to focus on that. He tends to live in the 'now' for the most part, sometimes recalling the past, rarely considering the future. That's why his stories tend to be written in present tense.

Therefore, Hulk has only a vague sense of sequence, and tends to lump things into past/present/future. Past has very broad markers like "when Mommy was alive" and "before/after lab accident" and "before/after team." So Hulk could take a given memory and categorize it based on those, but would have a really hard time taking even three or four memories and putting them in correct chronological order unless they were very widely separated or deeply important.

>> Huh, certain markers, trying to offset a word for emphasis, actually make it disappear. It's in the text when I edit, though. <<

Go figure. Asterisks usually work. You can also use angle bracket, i, angle bracket and then after the phrase put angle bracket, slash, i, angle bracket.

From:

dialecticdreamer

>> Hulk experiences the world more through feelings than through thoughts. He relates strongly to the senses of smell/taste and touch, both of which Bruce has articulated in canon. So when I write Hulk, I tend to focus on that. He tends to live in the 'now' for the most part, sometimes recalling the past, rarely considering the future. That's why his stories tend to be written in present tense.

Therefore, Hulk has only a vague sense of sequence, and tends to lump things into past/present/future. Past has very broad markers like "when Mommy was alive" and "before/after lab accident" and "before/after team." So Hulk could take a given memory and categorize it based on those, but would have a really hard time taking even three or four memories and putting them in correct chronological order unless they were very widely separated or deeply important. <<

So, if one had to put an "age" to Hulk-- something in the 9months to 18month range for NT children? Interacting with the world, some knowledge of cause and effect, lots of emotions and easily overwhelmed by stimuli like noise or light, etc.?

Jay-hos-e-PHAT!

Either Hulk "slipped" down to the age where he felt strongest and safest, or they SPLIT at that age.

Brian Banner didn't get half the kicking around that he deserved, to paraphrase R. A. Heinlein.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> So, if one had to put an "age" to Hulk-- something in the 9months to 18month range for NT children? Interacting with the world, some knowledge of cause and effect, lots of emotions and easily overwhelmed by stimuli like noise or light, etc.? <<

I'd say more like two years old. I use his language as the strongest indicator, and Hulk talks like a toddler. Bruce leans older in ageplay because he wants to be close to Tony, so he's more like three or three and a half.

What we do have going on at the 6-9 month age is attachment. That's when babies learn how responsive adults are to their needs. They're supposed to form a strong, supportive attachment to a caregiver. Instead Bruce-and-Hulk learned that nobody was reliable, their needs wouldn't get met, and people would hurt them. That underlies much of their trouble now. Also the disorganized attachment helps explain why Bruce was so quick to leave Betty whom he adores.

>> Either Hulk "slipped" down to the age where he felt strongest and safest, or they SPLIT at that age. <<

I'm not sure whether they were born as dual twins, or split at toddler age. I am sure Hulk was present in childhood. I was pleased to see hints of that in the earlier Hulk movie.

>> Brian Banner didn't get half the kicking around that he deserved, to paraphrase R. A. Heinlein. <<

Agreed. One thing I'd like to do some time is follow Schrodinger's Hulk into a dimension where Brian Banner is still loose. Because Kay's way of handling him is going to be "double-tap center mass, follow with a shot to the head."

From:

dialecticdreamer

OH, good, this makes a lot of sense!

If you think Kay would get to Brian Banner first, go for it... I'd really, really like Chris' cousin Luke to meet him first, though. LOL

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> OH, good, this makes a lot of sense! <<

I'm happy to hear that. This is really a case of "derive back, extrapolate forward." I look at Hulk's behavior and speech in canon to estimate his psychological age. Then I work further back to imagine how that might have happened. Moving forward, those ideas about his childhood and mindset inform the way he responds to what happens in the stories I'm writing now.

>> If you think Kay would get to Brian Banner first, go for it... I'd really, really like Chris' cousin Luke to meet him first, though. LOL <<

The problem with that is, Luke is a racist bully himself. He'd probably get along great with the likes of Brian Banner and General Ross. :/

From:

dialecticdreamer

Not if Chris has let slip anything at all about Brian being the reason BRUCE is so beaten down and shy! The bigots I know are really, really nasty when someone "should know better than to hurt one of their own"!

But, you likely have met different kinds of bullies and bigots. It's not like there's only a few of them, or they all meet on Wednesdays, or something. (Odin being one of their patrons.)

From:

dialecticdreamer

>> I think I'm just going to have to call this a divergence point. The time of death for Bruce's mother does vary across canon. So for this series, it was toddler age. <<

Yaay, thank you! Now I can let that particular version of canon slip into total obscurity, just like that episode of "Judging Amy" a friend convinced me to sit through. Y'know, the stuff that deserves to be subsumed in the morass of "vague bits of pop culture" everyone seems to accumulate?

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Fair enough. I take bits and pieces from a lot of sources, but rarely whole hog from any single one.

From:

dialecticdreamer

>> No wonder Bruce is dragging his feet, later in the storyline, about not wanting to repair his relationship with Hulk and not wanting to give up the bad tape. <<

Actually, from a personal standpoint... it's not at ALL "not wanting to give up the bad tape". Just beginning to heal enough to recognize how INSANE some of the internalized BS is from -one incident- in my childhood, there's also a very real tidal wave of ONE particular fear: if I let (this emotion, whatever it is) out for even a microsecond, the dam is going to burst and oh wow, it's NEVER going to stop. Just trying to GET to the 'bad tape' element is a huge problem.

Now add in every major trauma Bruce went through just from the incident where his father murdered his mother- he witnessed the attack, he lost one parent to death, the other last seen in an incomprehensible RAGE (Hulk-level rage, in fact), was taken to a hospital and subjected to a bewildering array of physical exams (none of which were likely to be explained to him given his physical age), lost his home and familiar possessions, lost any neighborhood friends or even familiar faces. Each SET of emotions can feel that overwhelming and impossible to cope with. That's all rolled into one twenty-four hour period, or less.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Actually, from a personal standpoint... it's not at ALL "not wanting to give up the bad tape". <<

Thanks for sharing. This helps a lot.

>> Just beginning to heal enough to recognize how INSANE some of the internalized BS is from -one incident- in my childhood, there's also a very real tidal wave of ONE particular fear: if I let (this emotion, whatever it is) out for even a microsecond, the dam is going to burst and oh wow, it's NEVER going to stop. Just trying to GET to the 'bad tape' element is a huge problem. <<

Okay, that makes sense. I've been trying to convey that Bruce is going as fast as he can, he just doesn't have the emotional resilience that Hulk does.

>> Now add in every major trauma Bruce went through just from the incident where his father murdered his mother- he witnessed the attack, he lost one parent to death, the other last seen in an incomprehensible RAGE (Hulk-level rage, in fact), <<

I think that's a key part of the problem: Bruce correlates Hulk with their father. Just separating that is going to be a lot of work.

>> was taken to a hospital and subjected to a bewildering array of physical exams (none of which were likely to be explained to him given his physical age), lost his home and familiar possessions, lost any neighborhood friends or even familiar faces. <<

I suspect that's why Bruce has no real attachment to places, no sense of "home." He doesn't care where he stays and doesn't mind being homeless, because he's always homeless. It was ripped out by the roots when he was a toddler.

Hulk considers the tower home. I don't think Bruce has quite healed enough for that, yet. He's fond of it. That's about the best he can manage.

>> Each SET of emotions can feel that overwhelming and impossible to cope with. That's all rolled into one twenty-four hour period, or less. <<

And Bruce isn't good at handling emotions to begin with.

From:

dialecticdreamer

>> Okay, that makes sense. I've been trying to convey that Bruce is going as fast as he can, he just doesn't have the emotional resilience that Hulk does. <<

Yeah. It's not what actually happened, but that feeling of being buried under a tidal wave... that took some time to get through. Hours, maybe, I don't have a clear time sense for it. Having people he trusts take care of him while he basically has a classically defined "mental breakdown" will help tremendously both to keep the duration short, and give Bruce more chance to avoid /more/ damage on top of it.

You had one wonderful version of Bruce actually breaking down and beginning to build himself back up again. I'd love to see this Bruce take a different path toward getting a handle on things.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Yeah. It's not what actually happened, but that feeling of being buried under a tidal wave... that took some time to get through. Hours, maybe, I don't have a clear time sense for it. <<

*hugs* How awful.

>> Having people he trusts take care of him while he basically has a classically defined "mental breakdown" will help tremendously <<

I think it will help with intimacy, and begin to convince Bruce that there are people who will help him when he is vulnerable instead of hurting or abandoning him.

>> both to keep the duration short, <<

Well, it's not going to be what I'd call short. As you said, hours and hours of breakdown. He's likely to spend half a day or so bawling hysterically until he cries himself to sleep. Which is not even the first time an Avenger has done that, but Steve is more in touch with his emotions than Bruce is, and better equipped to cry it out and be done with it.

>> and give Bruce more chance to avoid /more/ damage on top of it. <<

Any of the Avengers would be capable of doing damage control during a breakdown, some better than others. I'm mainly looking at Phil for primary support but it will help to have other folks helping Bruce in the aftermath too.

>> You had one wonderful version of Bruce actually breaking down and beginning to build himself back up again. I'd love to see this Bruce take a different path toward getting a handle on things. <<

That's exactly what I have in mind as part of the big Bruce-and-Hulk story. There is just no way the two of them are getting their act together without falling apart first. They have to, because the relationship they have now is decreasingly functional, but they're not willing to just admit that and rebuild from scratch. So the process of trying to tinker with little bits of it, combined with the changing circumstances, will ultimately bring everything crashing down around them.

And they have no experience with that kind of total collapse being a good thing, so they are going to melt down like woah.

From: (Anonymous)

I love Steve's pajamas. They're my favorite of the pajamas. XD Also, Bruce is adorable.

~RageQueen

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I love Steve's pajamas. They're my favorite of the pajamas. XD <<

Thank you! I tried to find jammies that suited each Little's personality.

>> Also, Bruce is adorable. <<

Yeah, he's a favorite of mine too. I want to hug him and pet him and call him George.

From: (Anonymous)

Baggy clothing may also be a reaction to being/feeling restrained. Collars on shirts make some people feel claustrophobic, for example.

Love this story and series. Thank you for sharing this.

MadameDirector on Ao3.

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