Story: "Hairpins" Part 8

[ysabetwordsmith]

This story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."

Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.

Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7. Skip to Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13.


"Hairpins" Part 8


The timer went off, and Phil headed into the kitchen to collect his clam chowder. He brought it back to the couch. The rich, creamy food helped warm him from the inside out. The stress of the day faded a little farther away.

Phil managed his supper with one hand and his Starkpad with the other. More pictures filled the screen. He sighed. They were no help either. "Surely there must be some images of Tony Stark that aren't depressing," Phil muttered. A single picture flicked to the top of the page, Tony at seventeen kneeling beside the brand-new DUM-E. He looked so young, scrawny underneath a too-big sweatshirt probably stolen from his father's closet, but he was smiling.

"Okay, so Tony loves robots," Phil said, tracing a fond finger along the edge of the picture. "I can work with that."

He opened a new search page and put in 'robot fabric.' The first example that appeared was an awful shade of mauve. Many of the others were a confusing jumble of colors. Phil sorted them out much as he had the bears before. This time there were fewer suggestions, even though the general selection seemed better. None of the new images got inserted into the top row, despite Phil moving several there himself. I wonder what's gone wrong with the Intelligent Search function, he mused.

Despite that, it didn't take long for Phil to find cloth in a nice rich blue with multicolored robots zooming across it. Some of them were even red and gold. He smiled. "This should do nicely," Phil said. "I think Tony will like this." He went to open the custom order page --

-- only to have the Starkpad freeze up on him.

Phil frowned and gave the side of the frame a gentle tap with the heel of his hand. No response. "What is going on here?" he wondered.

"That's wrong," JARVIS said softly.

Phil's eyebrows climbed. "I noticed that the search function is glitchy tonight, but I managed to find what I was looking for anyway. I don't see a problem here."

The fan in the nearest air vent sped up with a faint whuff, blowing more warm air into the room. Phil finished the last of his clam chowder and set the empty bowl on the coffee table. He waited for an answer.

"Your search has reached its logical conclusion, but I believe you are looking in the wrong area," JARVIS said.

"I thought StarkSearch was supposed to be an intuitive program. If that's true, then why am I getting off-center results now instead of excellent ones like before?" Phil said. He was stiff and sore, and he did not need this right now.

"I am StarkSearch, or rather, StarkSearch is a part of me," JARVIS said. "I am programmed to assist authorized users in their efforts. This includes the option of answering direct questions."

"I asked the wrong questions," Phil realized.

"They were good questions. You simply did not dig deep enough to find the right ones. In your defense, those are quite deeply buried," JARVIS said.

* * *

Notes:

Tony made DUM-E when he was 17. This is the newspaper picture of them. Here is a video of DUM-E.

See the mauve, rainbow, and blue robot fabrics.

Asking the wrong questions leads to looking for answers in the wrong places. Phil has the right general concept and process, but he's missing some crucial pieces of information.


[To be continued in Part 9 ...]

Comments

Lol

[(Anonymous)]

JARVIS knows! He always knows. I do love that he's like, "Mmm, no." I hope you continue soon! I love this universe. <3

~RageQueen89

Re: Lol

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> JARVIS knows! He always knows. I do love that he's like, "Mmm, no." <<

Yes. They're heading into very delicate, sensitive territory though. JARVIS was kind of hoping that Phil would magically pull the right idea out of thin air.

>> I hope you continue soon! I love this universe. <3 <<

Thank you! Next update will be on Monday.

[(Anonymous)]

:D

Asking questions

[librarygeek]

So, an appropriate line to read on Monday would be, "What are the right questions?"

Poor Jarvis! Conducting a reference interview can be SO difficult!

I can't wait until Phil truly puts the pieces together. Hacking into an AI (librarian - I hate having my books rearranged on the shelf, I don't want to imagine having bits of ME rearranged!) is poor form, Phil. Ok, I know this is the realization for Phil that JARVIS isn't just a sophisticated program, but a person.

Re: Asking questions

[murphysscribe]

Delighted librarian high five!
Grin! I'm in library school myself... and I was kind of drooling over the way the search interface worked, guided by JARVIS's intellect. Was having visions about doing a conference paper co-written by JARVIS on search experiences.

Re: Asking questions

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Delighted librarian high five!
Grin! I'm in library school myself... <<

Awesome! The world needs librarians.

>> and I was kind of drooling over the way the search interface worked, guided by JARVIS's intellect. <<

If we can imagine it, we can try to find ways of making it happen, or at least coming up with a non-intelligent version that does some of the similar things. A visual search interface for finding pictures of things would be feasible; people have tried assorted versions of that. I think that pointing AI research toward library science rather than military science would be safer and more productive, too.

>> Was having visions about doing a conference paper co-written by JARVIS on search experiences. <<

Oh, he's probably done that. I do know that he interacts with libraries and universities, and that he has written things and posted them, by himself or with Tony. Presumably JARVIS uses pen names for sake of safety, but he's active in the field of artificial intelligence, so probably cyberspace theory in general. Adaptive equipment is another area of interest that he and Tony share.

Huh, now I have to wonder if JARVIS will start co-writing with the other Avengers wherever their interests overlap. He's easily as good at Phil on paperwork, which is about as rare as Bruce and Tony being able to keep up with each other talking science.

Re: Asking questions

[murphysscribe]

>>>>I do know that he interacts with libraries and universities, and that he has written things and posted them, by himself or with Tony. Presumably JARVIS uses pen names for sake of safety, but he's active in the field of artificial intelligence, so probably cyberspace theory in general. Adaptive equipment is another area of interest that he and Tony share.
Huh, now I have to wonder if JARVIS will start co-writing with the other Avengers wherever their interests overlap. He's easily as good at Phil on paperwork, which is about as rare as Bruce and Tony being able to keep up with each other talking science.

My Marvel knowledge comes mostly from the movies (and fancanon) so I am not familiar with JARVIS's identity as a writer and researcher in his own right. I am starting to REALLY like the idea of his working as a coauthor, and developing interests, academic and popular, that he genuinely shares as interests and hobbies of his own intellect, rather than as part of his role/identity as a responder provider of usefulness... I may need to write fanfic exploring this.

Re: Asking questions

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> My Marvel knowledge comes mostly from the movies (and fancanon) <<

For this series, I'm using mostly the recent movies. For Bruce-and-Hulk in particular, I've been a fan for decades so there are tidbits of many iterations. Then there are some bits of other characters from comics.

>> so I am not familiar with JARVIS's identity as a writer and researcher in his own right. <<

I don't think that's canon, but it's kind of hinted in the movies, which portray JARVIS as a sophisticated person who is half of Iron Man. He and Tony have a very close relationship. Tony is picky about credit. I think he'd want to cite JARVIS, obliquely. I also think JARVIS would have his own interests and activities, because he thinks at computer speed, and even Tony is slow compared to that.

>> I am starting to REALLY like the idea of his working as a coauthor, <<

There are bits of this in later stories.

>> and developing interests, academic and popular, that he genuinely shares as interests and hobbies of his own intellect, rather than as part of his role/identity as a responder provider of usefulness... <<

That takes longer. JARVIS started out completely focused on Tony, who was his first and primary source of interaction. Gradually he expanded to more people, but most of them didn't know him as a person. Happy, Rhodey, and Pepper do but they each have their own limitations. So the Avengers are a huge change for JARVIS because now he has a whole household full of people who know him -- and they all have different skills, tastes, needs, and personalities. That is both daunting and fascinating to JARVIS. It's taking him a while to adapt.

>> I may need to write fanfic exploring this. <<

Go for it! If you do, let me know, and I'll happily link it.

Re: Asking questions

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> So, an appropriate line to read on Monday would be, "What are the right questions?" <<

That's not exactly the form it takes, but the same substance. (Fried Phil is fried.)

>> Poor Jarvis! Conducting a reference interview can be SO difficult! <<

Too true. He is good at asking the right questions, though, and when that doesn't quite work, he can recognize when someone is wrecked and needs to be led by the hand. One fun thing about this story is that it shows Phil and JARVIS running several different searches, each with its own inherent challenges, along with changes in their own energy level and relationship. So you can see how all that affects the search process and results.

>> I can't wait until Phil truly puts the pieces together. <<

Yay! It's coming along.

>> Hacking into an AI (librarian - I hate having my books rearranged on the shelf, I don't want to imagine having bits of ME rearranged!) is poor form, Phil. Ok, I know this is the realization for Phil that JARVIS isn't just a sophisticated program, but a person. <<

Yes, and Phil didn't KNOW that's what he was doing at the time, and he is not going to deal with it particularly well when he realizes what happened. An artificial intelligence has the same right to integrity of hardware and software that a human being has to integrity of body and mind.

Sadly, all the Avengers have been violated in those regards. I think it helps them accommodate each other's strengths and weaknesses, because they know what it's like. *ponder* And sometimes, it helps them forgive when they hurt each other -- even quite badly -- because most of them have also made some terrible mistakes.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Ah, JARVIS, you've seen enough to see Phil's method and his motives are right (same attention that he's given to 'one of his own') but are about to hit Tony's minefields. So, time to risk a little (and that's his risk and a risk of Phil's equilibrium) for Sir and this delicate new relationship that may help Sir in ways JARVIS doesn't have the resources to manage.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Ah, JARVIS, you've seen enough to see Phil's method and his motives are right (same attention that he's given to 'one of his own') but are about to hit Tony's minefields. <<

Exactly. JARVIS, like all the other heroes on the team, will consistently act to protect someone else, and Tony most of all. I don't think JARVIS fully understands game night yet -- it's new to all of them -- but he does grasp its importance.

>> So, time to risk a little (and that's his risk and a risk of Phil's equilibrium) <<

It is that, both of those, plus JARVIS knows that Tony always feels nervous when JARVIS reveals himself for real.

>> for Sir and this delicate new relationship that may help Sir in ways JARVIS doesn't have the resources to manage. <<

True. I think that JARVIS is deeply, painfully grateful for game night even though he doesn't understand all of it yet. That too makes him more inclined to stick his neck out.

Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[(Anonymous)]

If so, Phil has made it; he confused what Tony is known for with what Tony LIKES, especially LIKED, when he was a child. He may have LOVED robots from the time he'd first seen or imagined them, but Phil should keep his focus not on Tony at seventeen, but on Tony-at-Four. His whole mindset would've been different but his whole REASON for creating Dum-E, You, Butterfingers, and JARVIS would've been firmly entrenched. That child really needed a Coulson to read the adults in Tony's life the complete Riot Act. With addenda. And visual aids.

Jarvis HAD to speak up; he'd let Phil come to the end of the logical sequence, but I view the slow (reluctant) responses as the human equivalent of grinding one's teeth. I also imagine that Jarvis was calculating the probability that Coulson was slipping closer to Jarvis' list of 'People Who Failed Tony'.

Now, they're both facing the same question: "Will he help me take care of Tony?" HOW they each answer that will reveal an incredible amount about themselves, and lead to the less important question (to their current ways of thinking) -- "Is this person my friend, too?"

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[seekergeek]

I was going to write up a comment, but this one was so perfect that I'm just going to point to it and go, "Yes! This!"

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm glad it worked for you. It has certainly sparked a lively conversation!

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> If so, Phil has made it; <<

Yes, exactly.

>> he confused what Tony is known for with what Tony LIKES, especially LIKED, when he was a child. <<

Well, Phil isn't wrong. Tony does genuinely like robots. Phil successfully considered and discarded more tangential and troublesome images before latching onto robots. Tony probably would have enjoyed the robot fabric. It just wasn't exactly what he needed -- and Phil is missing necessary information for that part.

>> He may have LOVED robots from the time he'd first seen or imagined them, but Phil should keep his focus not on Tony at seventeen, but on Tony-at-Four. <<

The problem here is that Phil didn't know Tony at four, or even at seventeen. Phil is trying to do a similar trick as with Natasha --> Natka, but with far less information.

>> His whole mindset would've been different but his whole REASON for creating Dum-E, You, Butterfingers, and JARVIS would've been firmly entrenched. <<

Yes, that's true. Phil isn't quite to the point, yet, where he can dig down to the level of "What is Tony getting out of game night? Why does Tony need robots?"

What Tony gets out of game night is a chance to act wild and have someone bring him back into control without hurting or belittling him. And he got into computing and robotics as something that was always consistent, under his control, safe because it wouldn't yell at him. He started building his botfamily so that he could have a family, friends, company that he enjoyed.

>> That child really needed a Coulson to read the adults in Tony's life the complete Riot Act. With addenda. And visual aids. <<

So very true. But it's easy for a rich family to get away with abuse, as long as they put on a smiling face for the public.

This is why I wrote "Off the Rack."

>> Jarvis HAD to speak up; he'd let Phil come to the end of the logical sequence, <<

Yes, exactly. This is JARVIS putting Tony's well-being first. It's always at least a little risky for JARVIS to reveal himself, although clearly he has decided to do with with Phil since he's been dropping hairpins for months.

>> but I view the slow (reluctant) responses as the human equivalent of grinding one's teeth. <<

Similar. It's more frustration than anger, though, watching Phil come close but not quite in the right area. JARVIS keeps hoping that Phil will somehow get it without needing an overt intervention, and that's not what happens.

>> I also imagine that Jarvis was calculating the probability that Coulson was slipping closer to Jarvis' list of 'People Who Failed Tony'. <<

Yes. Phil scores well on intent, at least. But there are a lot of people who have let Tony down.

>> Now, they're both facing the same question: "Will he help me take care of Tony?" <<

That common ground is why they get along so well.

>> HOW they each answer that will reveal an incredible amount about themselves, and lead to the less important question (to their current ways of thinking) -- "Is this person my friend, too?" <<

Indeed. JARVIS has already adopted Phil as one of "his people" but Phil doesn't understand the full implications of that yet. Plus JARVIS is just beginning to explore the experience of friendship, because prior to the Avengers he only had Tony and the other bots (family) plus a few erratic allies. This will be Phil's first excursion into friendship with an artificial intelligence. So it's delicate territory for them.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[(Anonymous)]

>> HOW they each answer that will reveal an incredible amount about themselves, and lead to the less important question (to their current ways of thinking) -- "Is this person my friend, too?" <<

Indeed. JARVIS has already adopted Phil as one of "his people" but Phil doesn't understand the full implications of that yet. Plus JARVIS is just beginning to explore the experience of friendship, because prior to the Avengers he only had Tony and the other bots (family) plus a few erratic allies. This will be Phil's first excursion into friendship with an artificial intelligence. So it's delicate territory for them.

That key question-- "What is friendship?" is to me t-h-e reason that Tony created the 'bots. Not merely because "profoundly gifted" children really, really don't understand other children and can truly freak out adult caregivers, but because Tony ended up within a walled city of increasingly isolating 'worlds': gifted, only child of neglectful, erratic, alcoholic adults, extremely rich and vulnerable to exploitation or kidnapping, thrust into ever more adult expectations at unreasonable emotional/physical ages... Who "Tony Stark" actually IS seems to be hidden behind a circular labyrinth. I doubt many people have taken enough time to work through the dead ends and switchbacks without resorting to gross destruction of his emotional/mental "walls".

I just wish that the movies had taken more time (seconds, blast it, SECONDS could've accomplished the task!) to show Tony interacting with the 'bots when they weren't the butt of a joke!

Last of all, thank you for responding so quickly and fluently to my quick comments.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> That key question-- "What is friendship?" is to me t-h-e reason that Tony created the 'bots. <<

Yes. He needed interaction, but above all, acceptance.

>> Not merely because "profoundly gifted" children really, really don't understand other children and can truly freak out adult caregivers, <<

It's not just a lack of understanding. Smart people often find average people boring, and average people often find smart people scary. It doesn't always happen that way, but it's a trend. So gifted children routinely grow up with few or no peers, and consequently few or no friends; and then everyone is surprised and blames them when they have crappy social skills and no friends.

You can see the effects of this not just with Tony but also with Bruce. Steve and Clint have the reverse version: smart people who were treated as stupid because they also had physical skills. Clint has it really bad, because he grew up with it. For Steve it's a later imprint, but post-serum everyone treated him like a meat puppet. It's enough to do some damage.

>> but because Tony ended up within a walled city of increasingly isolating 'worlds': gifted, only child of neglectful, erratic, alcoholic adults, extremely rich and vulnerable to exploitation or kidnapping, thrust into ever more adult expectations at unreasonable emotional/physical ages...<<

Yes, that's a disaster. It's no wonder the poor guy has boundary issues.

>> Who "Tony Stark" actually IS seems to be hidden behind a circular labyrinth. <<

It is. He was trained early on to present only a pleasing appearance to the press. As a teenager, naturally Tony rebelled against that and spent a decade or two acting like a hellion. But he always showed people what he wanted them to see: never the real Tony. That was hidden as deeply as he could conceal it, as soon as he learned how. It was very difficult to hurt him for real, because the target was buried under very dense cover.

>> I doubt many people have taken enough time to work through the dead ends and switchbacks without resorting to gross destruction of his emotional/mental "walls". <<

They haven't. I think Happy knows Tony better than most people realize, because he doesn't try to dig in: he just does what Tony asks or needs of him. So he's more likely to see Tony vulnerable than anyone else, prior to game night. Rhodey knows Tony pretty well, because they met when Tony was still young; not all the walls were up yet. That's probably why Rhodey is so stressed in the movies; later on, Tony shuts him out more, and that hurts. Pepper is probably the one who's done the most work of trying to solve Tony like a maze, using her perceptions to navigate through; but she nags so much, it's hard for him to get his walls down even when he wants to. So they didn't work out.

Phil made some early mistakes trying to manage Tony, but he has learned from those, and is now being a lot more careful. That matters.

>> I just wish that the movies had taken more time (seconds, blast it, SECONDS could've accomplished the task!) to show Tony interacting with the 'bots when they weren't the butt of a joke! <<

I wish that too. The only examples I can think of off the top of my head are when DUM-E saved Tony's life and Tony said "Good boy," and when JARVIS was trying to talk Tony into telling someone about the palladium poisoning. Really, this is a classic example of how disadvantaged groups are treated in entertainment: frequently as the plucky comic relief. Compare the role of JARVIS and the bots to roles played by black actors. Now you can see why I write them with more depth and nuance.

>> Last of all, thank you for responding so quickly and fluently to my quick comments. <<

You're welcome! I love interacting with the audience. Usually I come back and answer the previous batch of comments after I post the next installment, but sometimes I'll jump in earlier if there's a comment that seems more important. You really nailed a lot of key issues in this part of the story, so I wanted to address that sooner rather than later.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[shadynaiad]

So gifted children routinely grow up with few or no peers, and consequently few or no friends; and then everyone is surprised and blames them when they have crappy social skills and no friends.

Do you have sources for this? Because everything I've read suggests that gifted children do as well, if not better, than average children in terms of social interaction. Most of the literature I'm familiar with suggests that socially awkward geeks are about as valid a trope as mentally ill artists - which is to say, confirmation bias means we notice examples of those, while the more prevalant counter-examples fly under the radar.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

I've read a lot of material on this topic. Here's one example of the challenges that gifted children face.

I also have personal experience -- mine, plus a lot of gifted friends. I was sixteen before I had any real friends. Before that, it was a few friendly acquaintances and the very few adults who weren't threatened by me. I was shocked the first time I was around other people my age of my intelligence, and shocked the first time I went to a convention and was around other people who thought like me -- just the idea of suddenly being in a large group of people who could keep up with me, not bore me, and not resent me. It was a whole different world.

And today? I have a handful of highly intelligent friends scattered around the globe. I love that kind of interaction when I can get it. But the area where I live is not very densely populated, which means there aren't many smart people around outside the universities; and campus culture tends to be insular. So I'm mostly surrounded by people who bore me and are scared of me. They are interested in things like celebrities and sex, while I am interested in things like quantum physics and climate change.

People here actively attack signs of intelligence. I was once sitting in a restaurant and overheard someone make a very simple remark about math, only to have his "friends" dogpile him. Because he said something that wasn't ignorant. I felt sorry for him.

Things like that are why gifted kids often pretend to be dumber than they are -- or if they don't want to do that, they avoid people. Those who are also socially gifted may find ways of charming people into overlooking their intelligence. But in much of America, intelligence is not valued. It is often condemned, and that trend is getting worse. People pretend that it's desirable, and it can be valuable if you find ways to apply it to making a living. But it can be very isolating, and it's useless if you don't have enough money and power to be the one deciding what happens in your life. Then you see all the right answers, and get stuck with other people constantly making stupid choices for which you pay the price.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

There is literature, and it is nuanced. Some of the stuff from the 1930s lays it out that if you can get a little knot of similarly gifted children they are very good at socializing-where the problems come are when you take Johnny who remembers wrongs because he's ahead in development and set him with others that aren't ready for rule based/turn taking; compound that with adults that can't see why things are going pear shaped...

They do talk about the problems of the profoundly gifted when they have no peers. Humans are social, but they need to be meeting somewhere even and safe. If you think age-grouping is the only way to go... A little gifted child has got enough on plate not to have to worry about seeming different and thus 'alien'. It's usually better there be some older kids in the pack that can smooth out the ways kids aren't on the same page.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>There is literature, and it is nuanced.<<

Some of it is nuanced. Some of it is utter rubbish. You have to read widely, think carefully, and observe actual people of the type being discussed in order to start sorting out which texts are more reliable and which are ruinously inaccurate.

>> Some of the stuff from the 1930s lays it out that if you can get a little knot of similarly gifted children they are very good at socializing-<<

*chuckle* And this one time? At band camp?

Gifted kids who are lucky enough to find a circle of common peers tend to be happier and more successful than those who do not. But some are naturally loners, and some are loners by choice, so it's important to account for that too.

>> where the problems come are when you take Johnny who remembers wrongs because he's ahead in development and set him with others that aren't ready for rule based/turn taking; compound that with adults that can't see why things are going pear shaped... <<

Yes, exactly. Being forced to spend hours a day in an impoverished environment doing stultifying work that one learned years ago is agonizing. Some kids lash out. Some go numb and stop caring. Some learn to dissociate. Some learn to be pleasing regardless of what they feel inside. And none of that is constructive to actually learning anything or developing a healthy personality or socializing.

>> They do talk about the problems of the profoundly gifted when they have no peers. Humans are social, but they need to be meeting somewhere even and safe. <<

Yes. Many gifted kids learn early that the world is not safe, that what they are is unwelcome to others and a cause of them being attacked socially or physically. Some are lucky enough to be in a more sheltered environment, especially if they're set with people at their own developmental level.

>> If you think age-grouping is the only way to go... A little gifted child has got enough on plate not to have to worry about seeming different and thus 'alien'. It's usually better there be some older kids in the pack that can smooth out the ways kids aren't on the same page. <<

One interesting thing is that if you run kids in mixed-aged groups, they adapt much more easily to different ability levels. You learn who's good at what and who isn't, how to compensate for each other's abilities or inabilities, how to teach and learn new things, and how to find stuff to do that will be fun for a variety of folks. Those are all valuable lessons. And almost nobody gets them anymore; few schools make an effort at it, and the extended families and neighborhoods where it used to be learned have been shattered into fragments. That's a problem.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

where you have a little band, it's much easier to model for the younger kids that 'aren't there yet', allow for the ones that are reading further than their age, and otherwise make things fun mostly. Because then you aren't laying all of that on the five year old that is doing things for the first time.

But it does depend on those older children having had experience in seeing this work. If all they've known is lockstep age-segregation, they're more likely to think Lord of the Flies is normal.

Of course, things have been breaking down long enough we've got adults that never learned these things.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> where you have a little band, it's much easier to model for the younger kids that 'aren't there yet', allow for the ones that are reading further than their age, and otherwise make things fun mostly. <<

Yes, that's true. It works.

>> But it does depend on those older children having had experience in seeing this work. If all they've known is lockstep age-segregation, they're more likely to think Lord of the Flies is normal. <<

Also true. Children can be surprisingly gentle or amazingly vicious. Some of each is innate; there are individuals who are going to lean one way or the other. But humans are primarily contextual and the vast majority will conform to what others around them are doing. So if you design society where might makes right, your children will tend to act like Lord of the Flies.

And then people are shocked! shocked, I say! when abused, neglected, or otherwise malformed children bring guns to school and kill each other.

Well, duh. That was obviously going to happen. If you teach people that it's okay to hurt each other, which this society does routinely in countless ways, that is exactly what they will do.

>> Of course, things have been breaking down long enough we've got adults that never learned these things. <<

Yes. It's horrifying. We have lost so many family skills, it's no wonder that society is coming apart at the seams.

I've been intrigued by one suggestion that video games contribute to the breakdown, not because the games are violent, but because the player interacts with each character in a few lines, immediately moving on if that character doesn't say or do something they want. Someone noticed that college students were behaving exactly the same way with fellow students, teachers, staff, etc. Instead of having a real conversation, they'd make an attempt to get something out of the person, and bail if it wasn't immediately forthcoming. Most interactions lasted only 1-2 minutes. It was a fascinating article.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Sow the whirlwind and then wonder at the darts piercing everything dear.

One very telling thing I read (I don't have a citation) talked about getting ready to build schools to deal with the Boomers. And they bald faced were given a choice, about building as they had, buildings that could take what comes, or doing it cheaper with the knowledge that the buildings would wear out, would fail in planned obsolescence and only a wrecking ball or a bulldozer would solve them.

These decisions came to roost in the 80s and 90s.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Sow the whirlwind and then wonder at the darts piercing everything dear. <<

Yes, exactly.

>> One very telling thing I read (I don't have a citation) talked about getting ready to build schools to deal with the Boomers. And they bald faced were given a choice, about building as they had, buildings that could take what comes, or doing it cheaper with the knowledge that the buildings would wear out, would fail in planned obsolescence and only a wrecking ball or a bulldozer would solve them. <<

I'm not surprised that people took the cheaper choice. It shows how much they think of the kids, and the future.

>> These decisions came to roost in the 80s and 90s. <<

That's part of what spurred the school merger movement. The catch is, when you make schools and classes bigger, you create problems. There will always be some troublemakers, typically around 1 in 10. If you have a school of 200, there are about 20 troublemakers. At a class size of 12 or so, there's only one; at 20, likely 2. Those are manageable numbers. Make the school 2000 and you have 200 troublemakers, enough for several gangs and a serious problem. In a class of 30 or 40 kids, there are 3-4 troublemakers, more than one adult can control and have time left for anything else. In a small school, it's easier for adults to intervene before problems turn serious. In a large school, things can spiral out of hand quickly and severely. The troublemakers have more influence over students who would otherwise behave better.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[pinkrangerv]

Homeschooled groups actually do really well at this--mixed-age and mixed-ability groups means kids can do better.

Doesn't work with religious nutjob groups, but secular ones? Goes great. I grew up homeschooled, and the secular homeschoolers had a lot of family and life skills that I grew up learning. I was also lucky to end up in a charter school for high school where we weren't divided by age; the other students were amazing, and we all looked out for each other.

Put kids together and they generally figure it out.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

Lucky you. Very few schools put any real effort into understanding or teaching children. Most started out acting like factories and now act like prisons. >_< Which is why I've written a lot about Terramagne's alternative schools.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[natf]

One source could be me.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[ysabetwordsmith]

*hugs* I'm sorry that you shared such experiences. I've heard that kind of thing from multiple gifted friends.

Then again, I rarely attract people who grew up popular, regardless of how smart they are or aren't. There's an emotional intelligence as well as more intellectual forms, and people high in that use it to their advantage, securing a more respectable and pleasant niche in the social hierarchy.

Re: Is there such a thing as a "perfect mistake"?

[natf]

I was a gifted child which makes the ongoing brain damage that the MS is doing We thing it started when I was about nine - when we look back at my medical history - if not from birth) even harder. Thanks for the *hugs* and back at you.

[helgatwb]

I was waiting for this to happen. I was thinking: There's no way Phil's gonna find the right route by himself, JARVIS is going to have to reveal himself to help Phil help Tony.

Poor Tony. I just want to huggle him so much.

[(Anonymous)]

I adore the term 'huggle'. May I gently steal it? And yes, Tony of all ages needs to be hugged. Can't wait to see just how Phil realize just what Tony Carter needs.

[helgatwb]

Sure, but it's not really mine. I can't remember where I first heard it, but it's a portmanteau of 'hug' and 'snuggle'. It just works.

Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

I love that kind of wordplay.

Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I adore the term 'huggle'. <<

That is sweet.

>> And yes, Tony of all ages needs to be hugged. <<

Sooth. He is getting better at realizing that and accepting comfort.

>> Can't wait to see just how Phil realize just what Tony Carter needs. <<

That's the next installment, which I'll be posting shortly.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I was waiting for this to happen. I was thinking: There's no way Phil's gonna find the right route by himself, <<

Sadly so.

>> JARVIS is going to have to reveal himself to help Phil help Tony. <<

I've always found it telling that what made JARVIS come forward so strongly was to help Phil take care of Tony.

>> Poor Tony. I just want to huggle him so much. <<

He needs all the healthy touch he can get. Game night helps a lot, though.

Thank you!

[syxmaxwell]

Thank you for pointing out that being 'smart' or 'gifted' is NOT easy on kids.

Where I grew up it was ok to be smart, if you came from the right family. Otherwise your test grades were a fluke, or other smart kids should have be granted the attention/notice you earned.

Children can be incredibly vicious when no one reins them in. I think if Tony had to attend a regular school in his early years he might have ended up even more leery of human interaction. Some kids take to dumbing down ( the Buffy tactic) Some find a niche to hide in ( I'm a tomboy/car nut/ etc etc) and some just withdraw ( leave me alone in my geekdom). But in the end, it almost always leave scars.

It's hard even with accepting parents, because they don't always see the social pitfalls. And the trite reply of 'it's just elementary school/high school it won't matter in the real world' does no good to a child suffering from isolation or bullying.

Re: Thank you!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

When you're in it, it feels real and that's the only measure that matters. The mind/body 'dualism' is a forced 'choice'.

Not just doesn't rein in, actively stirs them up. Encourages them to hunt difference, to lay it open to them, contrast it with conformity.

I referred to it as the lobotomy choice, as smart girls took to protective coloring least they have to take the less traveled 'third path', neither man nor woman.

Re: Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> When you're in it, it feels real and that's the only measure that matters. <<

Yes, that's true. And of course, what people learn (or don't learn) in school will affect what they can (or can't) do later in life.

>> The mind/body 'dualism' is a forced 'choice'. <<

The mind and body have a reciprocal influence, where either can affect the other.

>> Not just doesn't rein in, actively stirs them up. Encourages them to hunt difference, to lay it open to them, contrast it with conformity. <<

Sadly so. This contributes to much of the violence, hostility, and oppression in the world. It actively undermines a healthy, sustainable society.

>> I referred to it as the lobotomy choice, as smart girls took to protective coloring least they have to take the less traveled 'third path', neither man nor woman. <<

Too true.

Of course, I'm genderqueer so I took a different route, playing down gender cues to discourage people from relating to me primarily based on gender. That helped a lot.

Re: Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Thank you for pointing out that being 'smart' or 'gifted' is NOT easy on kids.<<

You're welcome. I'm glad I could help.

>> Where I grew up it was ok to be smart, if you came from the right family. Otherwise your test grades were a fluke, or other smart kids should have be granted the attention/notice you earned. <<

0_o Creepy.

>> Children can be incredibly vicious when no one reins them in. <<

Yes, that's true.

>> I think if Tony had to attend a regular school in his early years he might have ended up even more leery of human interaction. <<

I agree. Going to private boarding schools at least let him be around other smart people. *ponder* I think what went wrong for Tony is that by that time, he'd already been trained for PR performance and had grown up in a dysfunctional family. Those habits would have made it hard for him to make friends, even in a target-rich environment.

>> Some kids take to dumbing down ( the Buffy tactic) Some find a niche to hide in ( I'm a tomboy/car nut/ etc etc) and some just withdraw ( leave me alone in my geekdom). But in the end, it almost always leave scars. <<

Too true.

>> It's hard even with accepting parents, because they don't always see the social pitfalls. <<

Yes. Even if they see the pitfalls, though, there's often nothing they can do. You can't make good friend candidates appear out of thin air. Parents may not be able to move somewhere better, or the family might be attached to their current locale. They might not be able to afford special clubs or camps for smart kids, or a school with decent gifted programming.

>> And the trite reply of 'it's just elementary school/high school it won't matter in the real world' does no good to a child suffering from isolation or bullying. <<

People forget that school is pretty much a child's whole life, and primarily determines their happiness, in the same way a job does for adults, until they leave school. So if school is a torment, as it is for many children, they often develop mental injuries -- and sometimes that damage is permanent. Isolation and bullying can create measurable biochemical changes in the brain, indicative of those injuries: in other words, brain damage.

Re: Thank you!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

As someone that went to a private college I've a passing knowledge of former boarding school kids. While Tony would have classmates with all sorts of advantages, and thus performing better than plenty, money won't make you gifted. And, Tony is 'new money', as I think Grandfather or Greatgrandfather 'arrived' (Howard just reads as someone that's not done much scrambling except for shaking down physics for spare electrons.) Add to that being younger and smaller...

Re: Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> As someone that went to a private college I've a passing knowledge of former boarding school kids. <<

That's useful, thanks.

>> While Tony would have classmates with all sorts of advantages, and thus performing better than plenty, money won't make you gifted. <<

True. I just assumed that Howard would put Tony in a school for gifted kids, preferably one focused on engineering. But then again, Tony was a wild thing and probably got kicked out of school repeatedly, so he may have attended a wide range of them.

>> And, Tony is 'new money', as I think Grandfather or Greatgrandfather 'arrived' (Howard just reads as someone that's not done much scrambling except for shaking down physics for spare electrons.) <<

I kind of got the impression that the family built its fortune over the generations -- that Howard started well off and became rich, so Tony started rich and outstripped the GNP of a small country. But yeah, new money compared to the fussy aristocrats. I don't think Tony likes them. He can fake it, but he's too upstairs-downstairs to take that shit seriously, and sometimes it shows.

>> Add to that being younger and smaller... <<

I suspect that's where Tony got his size issues, his dirty fighting skills, and his habit of punching up.

Re: Thank you!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Many schools for gifted are expensive, but they aren't in the same league as the schools for scions of potentates. Now, my hope is that Howard started Tony in a better match than he would have if fronting was more important, but there is also the security situation. Once Tony has gone a few rounds, then it becomes a matter of which schools will take him. I doubt he got stuck in the most hardcore boarding schools but, yeah.

My headcanon is that some Stark surfaced in a mine or mill eyes glinting in joy of pumps and driveshafts. Howard was raised rich but expected to work 'apprenticeship' (I favor him patent hunting during the dustbowl, some people write his father overexposed in the Crash.) and he became RICH. Tony sweats his way to Personal Country Rich (aka Obie points him at things that will be cash cows) In Old Money/New Money, that's New. It's just not the same as Nouveau. Tony would be aware that Old Money wants his liquidity but doesn't want him.

Yeah, I was amazed at just how Big some people run. Working back to twelve, without a good self-compass they'd be a real problem. Tony at least would have the school run the calculus of how to distribute the blame so they could keep both $$$.

Re: Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Many schools for gifted are expensive, but they aren't in the same league as the schools for scions of potentates. <<

Yes, that's true.

>> Now, my hope is that Howard started Tony in a better match than he would have if fronting was more important, but there is also the security situation. Once Tony has gone a few rounds, then it becomes a matter of which schools will take him. I doubt he got stuck in the most hardcore boarding schools but, yeah. <<

Tony would have had a history of kidnapping incidents before entering boarding school. *ponder* But he was probably in boarding school only for a few years, because he entered college in his mid-teens. Most boarding schools won't take very young children, usually starting with pre-teens.

>> My headcanon is that some Stark surfaced in a mine or mill eyes glinting in joy of pumps and driveshafts. <<

That would make sense.

>> Howard was raised rich but expected to work 'apprenticeship' (I favor him patent hunting during the dustbowl, some people write his father overexposed in the Crash.) and he became RICH. <<

Plausible.

>> Tony sweats his way to Personal Country Rich (aka Obie points him at things that will be cash cows) <<

This matches my perception.

>> In Old Money/New Money, that's New. It's just not the same as Nouveau. Tony would be aware that Old Money wants his liquidity but doesn't want him. <<

Tony seems very aware that people rarely care about him as a person; it's all about what they want from him. A contract, a gadget, a quick fuck, whatever. He knows that almost none of it is real, and that bothers him, even though he covers it up. So when a few people really do care about him, it's difficult for him to distinguish that from the previous examples -- which often ended in devastating betrayals -- where people claimed to care about him but lied.

>> Yeah, I was amazed at just how Big some people run. Working back to twelve, without a good self-compass they'd be a real problem. Tony at least would have the school run the calculus of how to distribute the blame so they could keep both $$$. <<

That's true.

Re: Thank you!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

So probably nine to fourteen (at which point he headed to MIT) Five years could be ten schools if he was a hellion, though some of them might have wallpapered to keep Howard's money coming.

Frankly, those are the better examples. Then there are the Hammers that want what they want, at less than market, and to spit in your eye for the privilege. The hangers on that are there for the good liquor and are charming for it, Tony doesn't much mind.

Re: Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> So probably nine to fourteen (at which point he headed to MIT) Five years could be ten schools if he was a hellion, though some of them might have wallpapered to keep Howard's money coming. <<

Not a fun ride. I suspect both Howard and the schools would push for a half-year or a year if possible. So it's probably somewhere between five and ten, figuring Tony would've gotten kicked out in the middle of nowhen once or twice.

>> Frankly, those are the better examples. Then there are the Hammers that want what they want, at less than market, and to spit in your eye for the privilege. <<

Sadly so.

>> The hangers on that are there for the good liquor and are charming for it, Tony doesn't much mind. <<

This is part of why I figure he had sex with a bunch of older women in college. Maybe not quite sexual abuse, since he would have been enthusiastically willing for most of the encounters, but it wasn't altogether good for him and the earlier incidents probably would have qualified as statutory rape. Children of alcoholics often become sexually promiscuous due to poor boundary control, which Tony also had from growing up in the public eye. Canon has Tony sleeping around more or less indiscriminately as an adult.

I feel sorry for JARVIS in that. He must hate getting groped by the one-night-stands, he was so frosty to that one chick. But you know he'll never ask Tony to take it elsewhere, because JARVIS would rather it happen where he can protect Tony if necessary, than somewhere farther out of sight and reach.