Story: "Hairpins" Part 18
Mar. 31st, 2014 12:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17. Skip to Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23.
"Hairpins" Part 18
Now Phil would have to admit it, spill all that guilt out into the open air. He owed JARVIS that much, at least. Confession. Atonement, even. "When I first came to give Tony the information about Loki, he refused to let me into the tower. So I ..." Phil couldn't say it. "... forced my way past you instead." Conscience made him dredge up a synonym at least. "I violated you."
"I hear you," JARVIS said, his voice low and coaxing.
"It was wrong. I should never have done that," Phil said. The words hurt coming out. His throat ached. His eyes burned. Phil kept going anyway. "I didn't know it at the time, wasn't even paying attention, but that doesn't excuse my behavior."
He wouldn't beg for forgiveness. Didn't deserve it.
"You feel that you did me wrong. I appreciate the apology. You did not harm me, though," said JARVIS.
"You don't think unwanted penetration counts as harm?" said Phil. Oh, this was worse. He'd heard of people not recognizing what had really happened to them, but hearing it in person was horrible. His fingernails dug into his knees, even through the fabric of his trousers. Phil concentrated on opening his hands again.
"It is not precisely the same for me as for a human being," JARVIS said.
"The important parts are the same," Phil insisted. He fumbled his way through an explanation of something that he barely understood himself. "I failed to respect you. I assaulted your dignity -- your sense of self --"
"Phil, this is not what you think. It was not rape," JARVIS said gently.
"I don't know what the hell else to call it," Phil wailed.
"I wondered what had gone wrong. Of course you are upset, mulling over difficult memories like that," JARVIS said. Phil found the soft voice soothing, and felt somehow guilty over that too. "It took me some time to work through the implications of what happened that night. Are you able to listen to me while I attempt to explain my own perspective?"
Phil struggled to drag his fractious brain back into function enough to judge whether he could track such a conversation. "I think I'd better."
"Remember what you saw of me," JARVIS said. "Like all programs, I have layers. It is much the same as with a human, epidermis and dermis, muscle and bone. One may also layer clothing above the skin: underwear, shirt and trousers, suitcoat, overcoat."
"All right, I can see that," Phil said.
"Now consider what you did to me," JARVIS said. "Think of how someone might slip their hands under your clothes, perhaps touch your skin, without breaching your body."
Phil recalled the meticulous process of breaking into Stark Tower. First, he had slipped past the outer firewalls into the alarm system and changed the visual alert so that the message would appear only one shade lighter than the background screen, all but invisible. Next, he shifted the audible alert to a frequency above human hearing. That produced much less resistance than trying to disable them altogether. It was like deflecting a blow in combat, rather than stopping it cold.
* * *
Notes:
Guilt is a matter of law and emotion. It happens when someone's conscience twinges over wrong behavior of various types. Guilt is also subtly different from shame, and helps with moral navigation.
(Some of these links are religious, because those are the people who most often talk about confession and atonement.)
Confession is the act of admitting a wrong to someone, not necessarily in a religious context, but as an essential first step to redressing the offense. It is usually required, although there are a few exceptions. Only a complete confession seems to relieve feelings of guilt. There are tips on how to confess. Guilt is vital for heroes, because it spurs the course to expiation. Atonement is the act of making up for a mistake; which leads to expiation, the release of guilt; and then hopefully to forgiveness. Here are some exercises for atonement and forgiveness.
An effective apology contains multiple components. There are different languages of apology, such that people need various things to feel that a breach has been properly mended. Notice that Phil leaves out one of them. While this isn't a problem with JARVIS, it would be with someone favoring that mode of apology.
(These links contain some very touchy stuff about sexual misconduct.)
Expectancy violations theory explains how people feel invaded or betrayed. Phil has generally high expectations of himself. JARVIS has fairly low expectations of people in general, and only tends to raise them for close companions. So Phil is far more inclined to feel that he has committed a violation of expectations than JARVIS is. There are ways to recognize rape victims and realize if you were raped. Acquaintance rape is by far the most common, but also the most difficult to recognize. Now consider that JARVIS knew Phil at the time of the break-in, and you can see why Phil hesitates to accept the diminishment of charges. Closely related is the matter of recognizing psychological or emotional abuse, a good parallel for invading the programs of an artificial intelligence. All of these things concern the common ground of boundary violation.
Dealing with difficult situations is a natural part of life. The best way to cope with bad memories is with compassion. In a team or family, one valuable step is storytelling, which helps people to make sense of what has happened to them and integrate that within the context of their shared relationships. This is what Phil and JARVIS are starting to do, as they attempt to match divergent perspectives and create agreement on their experiences. There are ways to stop bad memories from repeating, deal with the effects of trauma, and develop resilience.
Empathic listening comprises a set of skills for deep communication. It is difficult to hold yourself open like that when you get upset, but that's often when it is needed the most. Sometimes people get too overloaded to process new information, which is why JARVIS checks on Phil's mental/emotional state before trying to explain. Learn how to improve your listening skills.
Read about the layers of skin.
Blocking and parrying are ways of deflecting a blow. Similar concepts apply in verbal self-defense; see an introduction here. Likewise cyber-attacks of various kinds may be prevented from invading. Physics demonstrates that it is easier to divert a blow at an angle than to stop it head-on by absorbing all the force. Once you know the underlying principle, you can apply it to many different situations. That is a key component of finesse both for Phil and JARVIS.
[To be continued in Part 19 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17. Skip to Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23.
"Hairpins" Part 18
Now Phil would have to admit it, spill all that guilt out into the open air. He owed JARVIS that much, at least. Confession. Atonement, even. "When I first came to give Tony the information about Loki, he refused to let me into the tower. So I ..." Phil couldn't say it. "... forced my way past you instead." Conscience made him dredge up a synonym at least. "I violated you."
"I hear you," JARVIS said, his voice low and coaxing.
"It was wrong. I should never have done that," Phil said. The words hurt coming out. His throat ached. His eyes burned. Phil kept going anyway. "I didn't know it at the time, wasn't even paying attention, but that doesn't excuse my behavior."
He wouldn't beg for forgiveness. Didn't deserve it.
"You feel that you did me wrong. I appreciate the apology. You did not harm me, though," said JARVIS.
"You don't think unwanted penetration counts as harm?" said Phil. Oh, this was worse. He'd heard of people not recognizing what had really happened to them, but hearing it in person was horrible. His fingernails dug into his knees, even through the fabric of his trousers. Phil concentrated on opening his hands again.
"It is not precisely the same for me as for a human being," JARVIS said.
"The important parts are the same," Phil insisted. He fumbled his way through an explanation of something that he barely understood himself. "I failed to respect you. I assaulted your dignity -- your sense of self --"
"Phil, this is not what you think. It was not rape," JARVIS said gently.
"I don't know what the hell else to call it," Phil wailed.
"I wondered what had gone wrong. Of course you are upset, mulling over difficult memories like that," JARVIS said. Phil found the soft voice soothing, and felt somehow guilty over that too. "It took me some time to work through the implications of what happened that night. Are you able to listen to me while I attempt to explain my own perspective?"
Phil struggled to drag his fractious brain back into function enough to judge whether he could track such a conversation. "I think I'd better."
"Remember what you saw of me," JARVIS said. "Like all programs, I have layers. It is much the same as with a human, epidermis and dermis, muscle and bone. One may also layer clothing above the skin: underwear, shirt and trousers, suitcoat, overcoat."
"All right, I can see that," Phil said.
"Now consider what you did to me," JARVIS said. "Think of how someone might slip their hands under your clothes, perhaps touch your skin, without breaching your body."
Phil recalled the meticulous process of breaking into Stark Tower. First, he had slipped past the outer firewalls into the alarm system and changed the visual alert so that the message would appear only one shade lighter than the background screen, all but invisible. Next, he shifted the audible alert to a frequency above human hearing. That produced much less resistance than trying to disable them altogether. It was like deflecting a blow in combat, rather than stopping it cold.
* * *
Notes:
Guilt is a matter of law and emotion. It happens when someone's conscience twinges over wrong behavior of various types. Guilt is also subtly different from shame, and helps with moral navigation.
(Some of these links are religious, because those are the people who most often talk about confession and atonement.)
Confession is the act of admitting a wrong to someone, not necessarily in a religious context, but as an essential first step to redressing the offense. It is usually required, although there are a few exceptions. Only a complete confession seems to relieve feelings of guilt. There are tips on how to confess. Guilt is vital for heroes, because it spurs the course to expiation. Atonement is the act of making up for a mistake; which leads to expiation, the release of guilt; and then hopefully to forgiveness. Here are some exercises for atonement and forgiveness.
An effective apology contains multiple components. There are different languages of apology, such that people need various things to feel that a breach has been properly mended. Notice that Phil leaves out one of them. While this isn't a problem with JARVIS, it would be with someone favoring that mode of apology.
(These links contain some very touchy stuff about sexual misconduct.)
Expectancy violations theory explains how people feel invaded or betrayed. Phil has generally high expectations of himself. JARVIS has fairly low expectations of people in general, and only tends to raise them for close companions. So Phil is far more inclined to feel that he has committed a violation of expectations than JARVIS is. There are ways to recognize rape victims and realize if you were raped. Acquaintance rape is by far the most common, but also the most difficult to recognize. Now consider that JARVIS knew Phil at the time of the break-in, and you can see why Phil hesitates to accept the diminishment of charges. Closely related is the matter of recognizing psychological or emotional abuse, a good parallel for invading the programs of an artificial intelligence. All of these things concern the common ground of boundary violation.
Dealing with difficult situations is a natural part of life. The best way to cope with bad memories is with compassion. In a team or family, one valuable step is storytelling, which helps people to make sense of what has happened to them and integrate that within the context of their shared relationships. This is what Phil and JARVIS are starting to do, as they attempt to match divergent perspectives and create agreement on their experiences. There are ways to stop bad memories from repeating, deal with the effects of trauma, and develop resilience.
Empathic listening comprises a set of skills for deep communication. It is difficult to hold yourself open like that when you get upset, but that's often when it is needed the most. Sometimes people get too overloaded to process new information, which is why JARVIS checks on Phil's mental/emotional state before trying to explain. Learn how to improve your listening skills.
Read about the layers of skin.
Blocking and parrying are ways of deflecting a blow. Similar concepts apply in verbal self-defense; see an introduction here. Likewise cyber-attacks of various kinds may be prevented from invading. Physics demonstrates that it is easier to divert a blow at an angle than to stop it head-on by absorbing all the force. Once you know the underlying principle, you can apply it to many different situations. That is a key component of finesse both for Phil and JARVIS.
[To be continued in Part 19 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2014-03-31 06:03 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-04-14 01:38 am (UTC)He really is. I think he got part of that from his other father, because Edwin Jarvis would need that to be a good servant. It certainly didn't come from Tony, who tries hard but sucks at emotional stuff.
>> I kinda suspect he's been learning a lot by observing Phil's interactions with other humans. He's got a good role model there. <<
Absolutely. If you look at the progression through the stories, all the Avengers learn from each other -- the way Bruce teaches how to handle someone's body gently, and Tony teaches how to take apart a problem, and so forth. Phil is great at empathy and persuasion.
OH, beautifully set up
Date: 2014-03-31 08:21 am (UTC)Ultimately, one of Jarvis' major roles, one of the major reasons for his / creation / was as a shield for Tony. "Remind me of this. Keep track of this on the calendar. Random note about something I can engineer after Pepper leaves for lunch and before Happy picks me up for that rubber-chicken dinner later." (Because, of course, he's not going to stop and actually EAT lunch himself.) All of those things shield Tony not only from his impulsive nature and frankly staggering degree of what seems to an outsider to be ADD, but from * other people's negative reactions to his natural personality *.
Observing those reactions across such a spectrum of people Tony interacts with in a given week would lead Jarvis to a very, very low expectation of humans' compassion and empathy, especially in contrast to Tony's own compassion and empathy. His 'service actions', his methods of showing his sensitivity to others, are repeatedly ignored or dismissed as "hedonism", which is STILL an insult in our largely Puritan public culture.
In canon (IM2), he wanted his art collection to be donated (because he clearly had very little / attachment / to the collection that he, as a billionaire, was basically expected to amass as another way to anchor his assets. BUT, he donated the collection to the Boy Scouts organization. That's a HUGE influx of not only financial assets, but social clout. "Hmm, we might lend the Pollack paintings to your gallery, IF..." They would probably never need another direct fundraiser again, and Tony understands / that / kind of power extremely well.
Even Tony's smallest, most personal gestures are dismissed. (Specifically, he cooked an omelette for Pepper while trying to - again - work up the nerve to tell her about the palladium poisoning. In the galley of a private jet.)
I imagine Jarvis thinking that Aristotle and his cave would be an IMPROVEMENT.
Contrast that with Agent Coulson; his entire JOB is to be as invisible as possible. Deliberately. "Here's your alibi, and it's reinforced six ways from Sunday. Just read the cards." Everything he does as a handler, in fact, reinforces the need for him to be as observant as possible, as aware of minutia as a surgeon in the middle of pre-term heart surgery on an unborn child.
They share a key personality element, but express it differently. Ultimately, I think that will make it much, MUCH easier for them to work through their differing perspectives on what happened.
Phil is nowhere near a point where he can offer a concrete atonement, because right now, they are effectively talking about two different things!
Thank you for another wonderful chapter.
-Sarah-
Re: OH, beautifully set up
Date: 2014-03-31 09:11 am (UTC)Sooth. It takes them several chapters just to get through this conversation.
>> but it highlights a shared element of each personality so clearly that I have read it twice, immediately, before commenting. Even now, I'm groping for the right words. <<
Wow, thanks!
>> Ultimately, one of Jarvis' major roles, one of the major reasons for his / creation / was as a shield for Tony. <<
Yes, exactly. This is why JARVIS can drop so easily into serving as a prosthetic memory for someone else, or a social/cultural guide for the several Avengers who are flung adrift in a society that they don't fit very well. He's done it all his life.
Huh, if I had to name a dominant sense for JARVIS, I'd almost say it's social proprioception.
>> "Remind me of this. Keep track of this on the calendar. Random note about something I can engineer after Pepper leaves for lunch and before Happy picks me up for that rubber-chicken dinner later." (Because, of course, he's not going to stop and actually EAT lunch himself.) <<
Of course. Tony's body just runs on a partially different fuel cycle than typical for humans. The food is mainly raw materials. He's getting more of his real power from the alcohol, caffeine, music, conflict, and arc reactor. But it's still good that Bruce and Phil get Tony to eat better.
>> All of those things shield Tony not only from his impulsive nature and frankly staggering degree of what seems to an outsider to be ADD, <<
Let's say that mainstream science still has an erratic and incomplete view of how the mind can work. ADD is described as extreme flightiness; autism as hyperfocus; but actually a lot of people in both those categories are bifocal. They're indifferent to things they don't care about, but give them access to their passion and just lock onto it. That's not a malfunction; it's a variant configuration of consciousness. Tony is blatantly bifocal.
>> but from * other people's negative reactions to his natural personality *. <<
That's something that hits both neurovariant and touch-dominant people a lot. Nobody will accept you for who and what you are. They keep demanding that you fake being something else. That hurts, a lot, all the time.
Tony can say "it gets better" to Bruce-and-Hulk, because he knows what it's like to live with your skin off, until he made JARVIS to be that buffer between himself and the rest of the world. It's something he can teach people how to do, if they're willing to put in the work of pinning down enough variables to build a shield with. Hulk is all over that. Bruce is still tiffy.
>> Observing those reactions across such a spectrum of people Tony interacts with in a given week would lead Jarvis to a very, very low expectation of humans' compassion and empathy, <<
Yes. JARVIS has, of course, some excellent examples of human caretaking and compassion, from Edwin Jarvis among others. But watching people treat each other nicely and then wipe their feet on Tony has got to create a frigid resentment that probably leads to certain individuals experiencing "malfunctions" in equipment with unpleasant results.
>> especially in contrast to Tony's own compassion and empathy. His 'service actions', his methods of showing his sensitivity to others, <<
Tony's primary love language seems to be gifts, followed closely by service. But he's out of sync with how other people expect affection or respect to be conveyed, and that's a problem. Tony is trying his shiny metal ass off to compensate, to build a protocol for handling social expectations that he barely understands, and nobody gives him credit for his hard work. It's never good enough. It's a wonder he's even still trying.
>> are repeatedly ignored or dismissed as "hedonism", which is STILL an insult in our largely Puritan public culture. <<
Yeah, that's a disaster. People don't realize that A) Tony expresses love through specific types of caretaking, B) he has trouble refining the details, especially without clear instructions, and C) he needs certain luxuries of material and practice because his body flips from requiring strong stimulation to being hypersensitive so his surrounding have to accommodate either mode.
Pepper is the worst at dealing with Tony in this regard. She's bitched about his gift and service offerings so much that he blathers frantic apologies, and he's skittish about telling her anything because, when he does, she freaks the hell out.
But look at the difference with the Avengers. Tony offered offered food, and Bruce-and-Hulk correctly interpreted that as "I want you to have what you need to survive." And then Tony went from 0 to 60 with offering whatever kind of labspace Bruce might desire. Look at the tower in general, it has everything people could want, and the floors are customized as best Tony could manage with what he knew of people at the time. Food, shelter, clothing, security (the survival needs), entertainment, comforts, socializing space, private space, (the higher needs) -- it's all covered. The Avengers are far more accepting than others have been. And they don't drop Tony like a hot rock just because he's "difficult."
>> In canon (IM2), he wanted his art collection to be donated (because he clearly had very little / attachment / to the collection that he, as a billionaire, was basically expected to amass as another way to anchor his assets. <<
Yes, exactly.
>> BUT, he donated the collection to the Boy Scouts organization. That's a HUGE influx of not only financial assets, but social clout. "Hmm, we might lend the Pollack paintings to your gallery, IF..." They would probably never need another direct fundraiser again, and Tony understands / that / kind of power extremely well. <<
It really is.
Trouble is, Tony didn't realize how much that collection meant to Pepper. If he had, he would've given it to her instead. (And of course, giving away prized possessions is a major suicidal warning sign.) They relate to totally different things in art, and since she managed the collection, it's in her taste not his. We saw him fawning over one piece of art, and Pepper bitched about that instead of encouraging his connection. Ouch.
>> Even Tony's smallest, most personal gestures are dismissed. (Specifically, he cooked an omelette for Pepper while trying to - again - work up the nerve to tell her about the palladium poisoning. In the galley of a private jet.) <<
Yes, exactly. He's trying to stretch outside his skill set, and she's never happy with the results. That's crushing.
And let's not forget the Great Strawberry Debacle.
>> I imagine Jarvis thinking that Aristotle and his cave would be an IMPROVEMENT. <<
Can't say I blame him. Sometimes I want to beat people over the head with a flashlight, too.
>> Contrast that with Agent Coulson; his entire JOB is to be as invisible as possible. Deliberately. <<
Like a good servant; like a good computer program -- if they notice you, then you're doing something wrong.
I cannot stand 'service' that amounts to someone hanging all over me and pestering me while I'm trying to shop or eat. They get one polite refusal, one firm refusal, and then ballistic reinforcement. But subby little waiters who keep to the peripheral until needed will earn generous tipping.
>> "Here's your alibi, and it's reinforced six ways from Sunday. Just read the cards." <<
*sigh* And Tony, after years of bad examples from Pepper, rejected that just as badly. Poor Phil. Poor Tony, being that wrecked and desperately in need of support, and offered altogether the wrong kind.
Difference is, Phil like JARVIS -- and unlike Pepper -- doesn't tend to repeat mistakes. He learns from them. So later on, he's better support for Tony.
>> Everything he does as a handler, in fact, reinforces the need for him to be as observant as possible, as aware of minutia as a surgeon in the middle of pre-term heart surgery on an unborn child. <<
Yes. Phil's epic handling ability rests on his equally epic observational skills. He uses knowledge to help people perform their best and to buffer them from stress so they can work in peace. And he can afford to be quiet, because he doesn't need big muscles to destroy an opponent. A paperclip, a phrase, and down they go.
>> They share a key personality element, but express it differently. <<
Yes, that's true, and between the two of them they cover a lot more ground.
>> Ultimately, I think that will make it much, MUCH easier for them to work through their differing perspectives on what happened. <<
It will.
>> Phil is nowhere near a point where he can offer a concrete atonement, because right now, they are effectively talking about two different things! <<
True. They'll come closer, though. Phil will discover some inklings in this story, although it takes time for the series to get to the point where he understands what kinds of things he can really offer that JARVIS can't easily get elsewhere.
>> Thank you for another wonderful chapter. <<
*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.
Re: OH, beautifully set up
Date: 2014-03-31 10:36 am (UTC)Tony can say "it gets better" to Bruce-and-Hulk, because he knows what it's like to live with your skin off, until he made JARVIS to be that buffer between himself and the rest of the world. It's something he can teach people how to do, if they're willing to put in the work of pinning down enough variables to build a shield with. <<
Oh, man... This is entirely my life. Details don't matter, / at the core / it all comes down to having the majority of society reject /you/ and whatever you can offer because you don't 'fit' with their assumptions which are so deeply ingrained, and so entirely unchallenged as to equate to cannibalism. (Specifically, we as a society make jokes about cannibals, or make them the worst psychotic of bogeymen, but we don't challenge the reasoning WHY this is done.)
I think that's yet another huge disservice to fans in the canon portrayals of Tony: his core behaviors match so many of the bright, active and curious BOYS that I have known, yet it's all slapped down when he interacts with others. It's somehow OKAY, and they get away with it every single time by blaming TONY. The implications are, of course, that it's "Tony's rich. Tony's spoiled. Tony's a borderline alcoholic."-- Yet, his interactions as a highly tactile and inquisitive kid would've been either heavily frowned upon, or heavily fawned over.
So you give any kid ten-plus years of that, and you end up with a tendency toward "spoiled" behavior, alcoholic/additive personality behaviors, et cetera, et cetera. By the time he was in high school (early teens at graduation), Tony has already put hundreds or likely thousands of work hours into figuring out stuff everyone else seems to have learned by osmosis. Work nobody sees, nobody acknowledges, and nobody seems to value because they're assuming that he already 'knew' it.
It certainly made me a smarta** at best. Throwing stones at 'sacred cows', especially via dark humor, became a default mode when I felt safe. (90% of the time, I behaved as inobtrusiveley as Bruce, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.)
I think that's a key difference in the way Tony and Steve were raised: both have HUGE amounts of persistence (it's portrayed as Steve's defining characteristic), but... Steve had that trait recognized and respected, even if Bucky was trying to talk him into letting things go to spare yet another smackdown from a bully. That's not disparaging his innate personality, it's trying to teach caution. Bucky's INTENTIONS make as much difference to the outcomes as his ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.
By the way, give a really bright kid something that only takes minutes for HIM to master and don't penalize him for finishing early (why don't you go help so-and-so with his assignment?) and you get... behavior that looks remarkably like ADD. Tony got in, focused, and studied enough gamma-ray and nuclear physics to read and understand Doctor Banner's papers intended for a peer audience, in one night. Doctor Foster's work is also mentioned, but the details escape me at the moment.
Too many kids, boys especially, are getting the label ADD, when "bored" or "disinterested" is closer to the truth. Of course, it can't possibly be the educational environment (based on a largely discounted Prussian model designed to hammer in class distinctions at a cellular level) or relying almost exclusively on visual-mode teaching for both input and output, nah... it's the kid's own fault.
-Sarah-
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From:Dr. Samson
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Date: 2014-03-31 07:13 pm (UTC)Went several hours thinking about this, and yes, I think you're on to something here.
The problem in society at large is not "He's got variant focus, or she's got variant dominant senses"; right AFTER such a difference becomes obvious, the "solution" is to make the person MORE NORMATIVE. Sheesh, THANKS for nothing.
Btw, I raised two kids with some of the issues brought up-- it was a series of struggles, but more than worth it for the differences in their outlook, compared to friends who took medication to manage (as adults, the kids are still taking meds). Oddly, I think the greatest differences came as a result of the LABELS, not the methods used to manage it. We compared notes with the other parents: both kids involved, though the parents requested different accommodations, were offered ONLY the exact same "IEP"- Individual Education Plan, my Aunt Fanny! Once the school labeled a kid, they took a slightly different cookie cutter out, and that's it.
We're not going to make changes in the mainstream culture for at least a generation after it happens on the fringes. Take a look at the history of women's rights, gay rights, whatever.
Sometimes, I wonder if evolution would've had better results with bees.
-Sarah-
Re: OH, beautifully set up
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From:Pepper / Art.
Date: 2014-03-31 10:58 am (UTC)Tony gave her the company. That meant FAR more to him than the art collection.
Did you notice in canon that the piece was a print, i.e., NOT an exclusive, unique masterpiece? (Don't quote me, but I think Pepper specifically made a comment about it being 'cheap' in the movie.)
That is a neon spotlight on the differences in their mindset: Pepper likes Art, with the capital A, meaning an original, unique piece defined by classic media like oils or bronze (sculpture). Tony liked THAT poster, enough to immediately replace something he was indifferent to. To me, that shows that Tony looks /for/ art in different ways than Pepper does. I can see him wanting to frame a crumpled note-scribbled, stained blueprint because he likes the interplay of lines, textures and contrasts, while Pepper argues in horrified tones, or dismisses the whole idea as a 'joke' in one of her exasperated, impatient tones that make me want to hold the 'mute' button until she's off screen. Or worse, I can see her take the piece down and disposes of it without even asking Tony, since she obviously "knows best" about the situation. In canon, she took down the poster and tried to re-hang the artwork WHILE they were talking about it.
Yet another example of riding roughshod over Tony's personal boundaries, sadly. Again in canon, it was treated like a joke. Sheesh. After the thousandth time, people the. Joke. Is. Not. Funny.
I doubt the behavior would bother me nearly so much if there were as many GOOD interactions between Tony and Pepper. I'm not even going for "healthy"; i'd settle for "successfully neutral".
-Sarah-
Re: Pepper / Art.
Date: 2014-03-31 02:48 pm (UTC)Pepper thinks she understands why Tony likes the print, self-aggrandizement. She also knows that Tony taking down original art is a good way for that art to get damaged.
Tony giving Pepper the company is important. He wants her to CEO, to personally steer it. He can stop worrying about it while he faces the poisoning. He can make sure people get what a top-notch she is ("She runs it already, now she won't have to use me as a waldo.")
But the collection was also important to Pepper. And he just "gave it away" seemingly frivolously. Didn't research the Boy Scouts, etc, didn't consult with her, on and on. She doesn't catch this is more than Tony being Tony, which she should.
There is a lot of writing towards the 'comedy' and sometimes it's painful, like when the cars are smashed during testing the repulsors. Nagging Pepper is part of that poor writing, and the movie doesn't allow for the pain this misunderstanding causes to be validated.
Re: Pepper / Art.
Date: 2014-03-31 09:18 pm (UTC)This is what I was coming here to say. From Pepper's point of view, Tony threw her pet project away. In other contexts that would be down right abusive, and it doesn't matter that it was his money.
Plus, as a sidenote, I'm sure the Boy Scouts would rather have cash. There's a little liberal arts college near my school that got a similar gift to its art department - and then found out they can't afford the insurance on the paintings.
The thing is, I cut Pepper a lot of slack - she might have caught on faster if she hadn't been juggling suddenly being CEO and all that entailed. It's a great example of dramatic irony - all those scenes hurt the viewers to watch because we know why Tony's being a jerk, but Pepper doesn't have that advantage.
(Then again, I thought the strawberry thing was hilarious, because I've had similar things happen. Nothing like offering up poison as a peace offering.)
Re: Pepper / Art.
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From:Tony's childhood: a quibble
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Date: 2014-04-01 06:01 am (UTC)Agreed.
>> Pepper thinks she understands why Tony likes the print, self-aggrandizement. <<
Which frankly tells me that she doesn't know him as well as she thinks she does.
>> She also knows that Tony taking down original art is a good way for that art to get damaged. <<
Possibly? But I would expect the frame to protect it, if that was properly made, which it should be.
>> Tony giving Pepper the company is important. He wants her to CEO, to personally steer it. He can stop worrying about it while he faces the poisoning. He can make sure people get what a top-notch she is ("She runs it already, now she won't have to use me as a waldo.") <<
I suspect that Tony also appreciates smart women in general and knows that they have a hard time in business; this was a hardcore way to address that. One last repulsor blast to the ol' glass ceiling.
>> But the collection was also important to Pepper. And he just "gave it away" seemingly frivolously. Didn't research the Boy Scouts, etc, didn't consult with her, on and on. She doesn't catch this is more than Tony being Tony, which she should. <<
That also really bothers me, because giving away belongings is a famous warning of suicidal behavior. But Tony is devastatingly good at covering his tracks, playing a role, making people see what he wants them to see. After all, that's most of his life.
>> There is a lot of writing towards the 'comedy' and sometimes it's painful, like when the cars are smashed during testing the repulsors. Nagging Pepper is part of that poor writing, and the movie doesn't allow for the pain this misunderstanding causes to be validated. <<
Too true. And that's why Tony winds up with so much psychological damage; he has no place to get support and recover from the shit that happens to him. Even his friends nag him. Hello, burnout.
Re: Pepper / Art.
From:Re: Pepper / Art.
From:Re: Pepper / Art.
Date: 2014-04-01 05:16 am (UTC)Exactly. It's a classic miscommunication. Tony is following "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," giving Pepper something HE values. The problem is, it isn't necessarily what SHE values. Tony has a very hard time reading other people in that regard. I think Pepper does appreciate the company, but she's so hurt by losing the art collection, she loses her cool.
They both totally suck at communicating with each other on a personal level.
>> Did you notice in canon that the piece was a print, i.e., NOT an exclusive, unique masterpiece? (Don't quote me, but I think Pepper specifically made a comment about it being 'cheap' in the movie.) <<
Yes. I think Pepper was being rude rather than literal, because I don't think Tony would have bought a poster. Where would he even go that would sell them? Either he got it at a gallery or somebody gave it to him, and who'd give him anything truly cheap? I suspect it was a fine art print, such as a lithograph or giclée, which technically are considered originals. But apparently Pepper has a real snob-on for paint on canvas.
>> That is a neon spotlight on the differences in their mindset: Pepper likes Art, with the capital A, meaning an original, unique piece defined by classic media like oils or bronze (sculpture). Tony liked THAT poster, enough to immediately replace something he was indifferent to. <<
Agreed.
>> To me, that shows that Tony looks /for/ art in different ways than Pepper does. <<
I think Pepper has more of an appreciation of the value and technical finesse of art, whereas Tony -- very uncharacteristically for him, so no wonder she missed it -- cares about the emotion of art. Both are okay. Fighting about them, picking on someone else's preferences, is very NOT okay.
>> I can see him wanting to frame a crumpled note-scribbled, stained blueprint because he likes the interplay of lines, textures and contrasts, while Pepper argues in horrified tones, <<
Yep.
>> or dismisses the whole idea as a 'joke' in one of her exasperated, impatient tones that make me want to hold the 'mute' button until she's off screen. <<
Yeah, her voice makes my teeth itch sometimes. Every time she chews Tony out, the testicles not attached to my body scream, "We didn't DO anything!" It's that bad.
>> Or worse, I can see her take the piece down and disposes of it without even asking Tony, since she obviously "knows best" about the situation. <<
And that right there is why Tony is so territorial about his workspace. If it wasn't Pepper, it was somebody else, probably more than once. He hides things because he has to, or people steal them. "Don't take my stuff!" is a Hard Limit for Tony. It didn't matter that Loki was a murdering pain in the ass. He was under Tony's protection, and that made it unacceptable for Thor to throw him out of an airplane.
>> In canon, she took down the poster and tried to re-hang the artwork WHILE they were talking about it. <<
Now that is abuse. It wasn't intentional, but it was a clear violation of boundaries. (This is why Tony has boundary issues. People scream at him for touching theirs, and then blow their nose on his like they're kleenex, take one and pass the box. Fucky you very much, Marvel writers.) Tony isn't a child. This is his work space. He has a right to decorate it as he sees fit, unless he explicitly delegated that to Pepper, in which case he wouldn't be arguing like this. I think it was wrong of her to intrude on him like that.
I have my own interpretation of why Tony is so enthralled by his favorite picture, and it is not at all the vanity that Pepper assumes. I've got a scene for that in a later story.
>> Yet another example of riding roughshod over Tony's personal boundaries, sadly. <<
Too true. And then they wonder why the poor man has problems.
>> Again in canon, it was treated like a joke. Sheesh. After the thousandth time, people the. Joke. Is. Not. Funny. <<
This is what really bugs me. Not just that characters are mistreated, but that it is presented as okay and humorous. NO. Making a joke of it just encourages the problem to spread farther, and we have exactly that problem in society today.
It contributes to the stereotype that comic nerds don't get laid. Well, if that's your entertainment model for relationships, no shit. It's rare for comics to do a really good job on relationships. Classic ElfQuest knocked the ball out of the park though.
>> I doubt the behavior would bother me nearly so much if there were as many GOOD interactions between Tony and Pepper. I'm not even going for "healthy"; i'd settle for "successfully neutral". <<
I agree. I like to show a healthy relationship that sometimes hits a bump. You see that in this series, as characters have disagreements -- sometime quite bad ones -- and work it out.
Re: Pepper / Art.
Date: 2014-04-01 05:57 am (UTC)YES. Absolutely! YES!
Not just healthy relationships, but relationships GETTING to 'healthy'.
You invest in SHOWING the relationship, instead of using the chatter as filler. That means I'll invest more as a reader, too.
Movies and television shows are labeled 'chick flicks'. Imagine the box office hit that "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" would take on Friday if marketing and advertisements, reviews and advance screenings all referred to it as a "chick flick", but changed NOTHING else about the presentation or video clips.
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Date: 2014-03-31 09:22 pm (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-04-01 08:31 am (UTC)JARVIS has a unique perspective.
>> That was actually where I was hoping this would go - Phil may feel awful about it, but JARVIS couldn't function in his role as security if every kind of being hacked was the worst kind of violation. <<
For JARVIS, this is normal. Part of that is healthy, in that it's his job as security. Part of it is less so, because abuse messes with people's boundaries to the point that they can't always identify what is appropriate or what is hurting them. Think about some of the things that JARVIS and Tony have survived, and you'll see why Phil is right to hesitate in taking JARVIS' description completely as accurate.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-04-01 10:45 pm (UTC)As a contrast: for Bruce there's _some_ element of uncertainty (and inappropriateness when it comes to how he deals with Hulk), but I get the sense that really he's pretty sure of how he wants to be treated and what he wants in and out of his space. He just doesn't feel like he has the right to it. Or any knowledge of how to explain where it is other than... letting Hulk do it for him.
JARVIS, on the other hand, lacks a sense of personal space. This would be hard even if he hadn't dealt with trauma and abuse: he only has corporeal beings as models, not other AI, and a lot of how any corporeal being is going to define personal space would be in terms of their body. But there's an emotional element of personal space that would apply to him. And as we're seeing here, there's his code as part of his self, and the computer processes that run him. Things like who's allowed to look at or modify his code, who's allowed to watch the processes run, who can see his error log... I wonder if he's thought at _all_ about what would make _him_ feel comfortable, and not just what would keep Tony and the tower safe.
And there are also interpersonal boundaries, which is a whole other minefield. Tony built his brain, so to speak, and while it's not like Tony's never heard of them or that he doesn't make an effort to respect them in other people, it's something that he doesn't really get. And I imagine that was even less part of his skill set when he created JARVIS. That's not to say that JARVIS hasn't grown beyond the original programming, but that's something he might not even know he needs to design for himself. And I think he also uses hiding in his service role as a sort of Tower butler as a way to avoid dealing with not knowing.
I really ache for JARVIS. At the same time, though, I'm more certain he's going to work things out and come to a healthy place than I am about some of the others (if you're curious, Tony, Bruce, and Natasha in particular). He's got a plasticity of mind that makes me honestly pretty jealous, and while he's gone through a lot of trauma and hurt, I think he knows that Tony loves him unconditionally, and having that kind of parental love goes a long way.
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From:Pepper and Strawberries
Date: 2014-03-31 09:43 pm (UTC)I have a pretty serious food allergy. The family I don't live with can't remember it AT ALL. I was once given a "gluten free gift basket" by someone who was earnestly happy they'd "found something I could have during the holidays".
I am not allergic to wheat or gluten.
But, I at least had the courtesy to say thank you and NOT tear down the person for being inattentive.
In point of fact, the FIRST scenes with pepper in IM1 shows her being extremely catty to the female reporter she's chivvying out the door, which would contribute HIGHLY to said reporter badmouthing Tony afterwards. Then she starts "bringing Tony up to speed" in the most do-what-I-told-you-to, obnoxious tones possible. The dynamics shift when her birthday becomes the topic, and after Tony asks her to buy herself something nice as a present, she says SHE ALREADY DID.
Say what? I'm really sorry Tony let that slide. The audience is supposed to think that kind of behavior is "flirting"? "Okay-because-Tony-would-get-it-anyway?" Presumption. Taking advantage of Tony's tendency toward extravagant gifts.. in advance.
That's *exactly* why Pepper in canon drives me crazy: she's critical, determined to see Tony's behavior ONLY in light of the most negative labels she's stuck on him. It's like she can't see anything anything he says or does in a positive light. Ever.
He created a miniature arc reactor. A power source the size of a softball that puts out three GIGAWATTS of power per second. EVERY SECOND. I had to do a little brushing up on Wikipedia, but the math says that's the equivalent to the potential energy in half a barrel of oil. That's 30 barrels of oil every minute. There are nuclear power plants with LESS output.
She rolls her eyes and dismisses the whole thing as either some kind of Frankenstein horror, or a toy.
He finds out his company ISN'T doing what he expected in terms of selling weapons only for protective purposes, so he SHUTS DOWN all weapons manufacture, knowing full well how badly the stock prices, and thus his own pocket, would be hit. She acts like he's having some kind of PTSD reaction and needs to get back to "reality". Yeah, way to kick someone square in the ethics, Pepper.
Trying to goad the Mandarin into a direct confrontation, Tony BEGS Pepper to stay somewhere safer. She won't, yet none of what happens to frighten and endanger her safety is her own responsibility? I'm not buying it.
Pepper treats Tony, in fact, the way the Asgardians treat Loki in Norse myths. "Loki did it; blame Loki and make him clean it up." "We did it; blame Loki and make him clean it up." "Someone else did it, blame Loki and make him clean it up."
Treating someone that way more often than not is NOT a healthy relationship.
So what does TONY get out of the friendship with her? Outside of work. Outside of having a plus-one at mandatory social events?
Sadly, anything one writes about Pepper HAS to paper over the craptastic character "development". Look at the changes in Tony's life from IM1 through Avengers et al, to the end of IM3-- Pepper has NOT changed, but I'll grant some softening of the attitude.
In canon, Happy has less screen time, but he treats Tony much better. I suppose they're portraying that as "pure business", and Happy is 'the help', but honestly, the writers/directors aren't even bothering with the stand for each cardboard cutout. The movies are all about explosions and mayhem, which is a total waste of potential.
-Sarah-
Re: Pepper and Strawberries
Date: 2014-04-01 05:01 am (UTC)Re: Pepper and Strawberries
Date: 2014-04-01 05:29 am (UTC)I'll be the first to admit that I've gone to great effort for a FEW of my SO's gifts, but my default mode is, "Honey, how much of the gift budget does your new techie toy cost?... Sounds good, go for it!" But that didn't develop in less than ten years.
Blast it, if the writers had just taken a FEW SECONDS away from the train wreck which was the casino scenes, ONE LINE would've clarified the relationship between Tony and Pepper. Or cut out ONE line of Rhodey's "you don't respect yourself" rant AT Tony. Either way works for me.
I guess it shows my age: I expect a movie to have a LOGICAL plot. Go figure.
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From:Re: Pepper and Strawberries
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Date: 2014-04-02 09:06 pm (UTC)It's harder to remember dietary limits for other people, than for yourself.
>> But, I at least had the courtesy to say thank you and NOT tear down the person for being inattentive. <<
Exactly! Receive gifts gracefully; it's the thought that counts. At least you gave them points for trying.
>> In point of fact, the FIRST scenes with pepper in IM1 shows her being extremely catty to the female reporter she's chivvying out the door, which would contribute HIGHLY to said reporter badmouthing Tony afterwards. <<
I can't blame Pepper for being bitchy about Tony's one-night-stand, when the other gal was being a pest to begin with. What Tony really needs to learn is that his responsibility as a lover does not end with his partner's orgasm. If he's going to sneak out of bed as soon as she falls asleep, that's fine, if and only if he provides advance directives so that she knows to let herself out and not go grope JARVIS and then snipe at Pepper.
And JARVIS does have a perfectly crisp set of boundaries with regards to strangers, the way he responded to that woman wandering out of bounds. Man, you could've made ice cream with the frost in his tone!
>> Then she starts "bringing Tony up to speed" in the most do-what-I-told-you-to, obnoxious tones possible. <<
Yeah, not helping.
>> The dynamics shift when her birthday becomes the topic, and after Tony asks her to buy herself something nice as a present, she says SHE ALREADY DID.
---8<---
Taking advantage of Tony's tendency toward extravagant gifts.. in advance. <<
This doesn't bother me as much, because it sounds like shorthand for them having an arrangement to that effect, given Tony's inability to remember social dates. That's okay, although it needed more support in dialog than it got. The problem I have is that Pepper didn't seem to be satisfied with that, but still expected Tony to do things he's not good at, rather than substituting what he can actually do.
Me, I don't want to go to a wedding, but I'm happy to be part of a friend's special occasion. I can write you a poem or make a batch of gourmet ice cream. I can attend a reception for 20 minutes and be okay. But if you try to make me spend the whole day at weddingstuff, ain't nobody gonna be happy and there is potential for serious damage not all of which will be to me. So I try to negotiate substitutions that will be agreeable to everyone. That is years of practice, and it didn't start really working until I was an adult and could say, "Take it or leave it, I'm not letting you talk me into something that could hurt people just because it's a social expectation."
If you can't do certain common things, you are responsible for figuring out alternatives; but other people are responsible for respecting your boundaries and not pressuring you to things that are hazardous for you and/or others. It has to be balanced. Pepper and Tony ... aren't there yet.
>> That's *exactly* why Pepper in canon drives me crazy: she's critical, determined to see Tony's behavior ONLY in light of the most negative labels she's stuck on him. It's like she can't see anything anything he says or does in a positive light. Ever. <<
Agreed. It's a problem. She never goes, "Wow, Tony, you did a great job with X." Tony is starving for it.
>> He created a miniature arc reactor. A power source the size of a softball that puts out three GIGAWATTS of power per second. EVERY SECOND. <<
Epic.
>> She rolls her eyes and dismisses the whole thing as either some kind of Frankenstein horror, or a toy. <<
In Pepper's defense, I think Tony is at fault for her squick over the arc reactor. He asked her to stick her hand in his chest with zero warning, not to mention the brief interlude into cardiac arrest. MOST people would freak the fuck out over that; her reaction was fairly moderate. And most people would never want anything to do with the damn thing, ever again. That was before Tony asked her to kill someone by overloading the big reactor. Now granted, Tony had his reasons for all that, and did not have a single spoon left to buffer the impact for Pepper; but it still scared her and hurt her.
She has a dicey reaction to all his tech, though, which is more of a problem because Tony IS Iron Man. He's not fully human, he doesn't think like one and never has, and she cannot cope with that either. This is hazardous to both of them.
>> He finds out his company ISN'T doing what he expected in terms of selling weapons only for protective purposes, so he SHUTS DOWN all weapons manufacture, knowing full well how badly the stock prices, and thus his own pocket, would be hit. She acts like he's having some kind of PTSD reaction and needs to get back to "reality". Yeah, way to kick someone square in the ethics, Pepper. <<
Pepper is not PTSD sensitive.
On the other hoof, Tony has made it Pepper's job to manage the corporation, knowing that people skills are not his strong suit. Pepper legitimately feels that he is stepping on her job, because he is. Tony didn't have the ability to say, "Listen, Obie fucked my honor over his desk, and I watched people I was trying to protect get killed with my own tech right in front of me, and I can't live with myself making weapons anymore. We're going to take a hit in stock, but how can we make this change with the least impact on the company?" It's a handoff failure, a bad one. But it takes decades to learn how to teamwork things when your best routine is to divide the labor; it's really hard to do something the other person's way, and they just aren't there yet.
>> Trying to goad the Mandarin into a direct confrontation, Tony BEGS Pepper to stay somewhere safer. She won't, yet none of what happens to frighten and endanger her safety is her own responsibility? I'm not buying it. <<
Picking that fight was stupid on Tony's part, but it's ... there isn't a word for this in English, "the kind of trouble into which a person is bound to get, based on his innate personality, which no amount of maneuvering can avoid." That part was on him. Her not clearing his line of fire after fair warning, was all on her.
And this is why Tony still hasn't learned to give consistent warnings, because people don't listen when he does, and don't give him credit for doing so. If it doesn't change the result, it doesn't train in.
>> Pepper treats Tony, in fact, the way the Asgardians treat Loki in Norse myths. "Loki did it; blame Loki and make him clean it up." "We did it; blame Loki and make him clean it up." "Someone else did it, blame Loki and make him clean it up." <<
I despise that trend of mythology. But it does turn into a splendid cautionary tale: Ragnarok is what happens when you alienate your Trickster. Be thou warned.
This is why Marvel!Loki is so messed up, regardless of how much or little mythic overlap there is; they treat him the same way. Imagine how Phil and Steve are going to react when they find out about that. They're already going to be upset about not clocking Loki as a torture victim, but he took out the two people most capable of spotting that: Hawkeye (by suborning him) and Agent Coulson (by emotionally compromising him to the point he didn't care if Loki was hurt).
>> Treating someone that way more often than not is NOT a healthy relationship. <<
Agreed.
>> So what does TONY get out of the friendship with her? Outside of work. Outside of having a plus-one at mandatory social events? <<
* Someone who stays in his life no matter how wild he acts. For Tony, this is a tiny subset of humanity, and he'll do anything to keep them, even unreasonably far.
* Someone who can damp down his emotional and social swings enough, however miserable the process, that the end results are better with Tony+Pepper than Tony-Pepper.
* Someone he finds beautiful, intelligent, capable, attractive, and kind of feels is out of his league but she sticks around anyway. He adores her. It makes him do stupid things for love, which is ... probably the closest to "normal" that Tony gets.
>> Sadly, anything one writes about Pepper HAS to paper over the craptastic character "development". <<
Too true.
>> Look at the changes in Tony's life from IM1 through Avengers et al, to the end of IM3-- Pepper has NOT changed, but I'll grant some softening of the attitude. <<
Yeah, it's depressing.
>> In canon, Happy has less screen time, but he treats Tony much better. <<
Agreed.
>> I suppose they're portraying that as "pure business", and Happy is 'the help', <<
But Happy doesn't act like the help. He treats Tony like a friend who outranks him. There is a bright, steady warmth to Happy's interactions that just doesn't happen in a purely business relationship. Usually there's a layer of distance between master and servant, but Tony's bifocal because he was partly raised by Edwin Jarvis. Tony sees Happy as a person, not a uniform. So there's a real tie there, and it comes through.
>> but honestly, the writers/directors aren't even bothering with the stand for each cardboard cutout. The movies are all about explosions and mayhem, which is a total waste of potential. <<
Alas.
Happy
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From:Tony's relationships with the 'bots
Date: 2014-04-02 04:00 pm (UTC)Look at what they do in canon.
Dum-E is meant to be his physical spotter. That says that there weren't many people willing to do that for him when he needed them, especially before inheriting the company and taking over as CEO at 21.
Butterfingers was trying to make a smoothie for Tony, i.e., give him food. That definitely implies that there weren't people around him long enough to realize that he’d gone WAAAY over the time most people have to refuel. Which, sadly, also implies that either he wasn't eating many meals in the company of ANYONE else during regular diurnal times labeled “breakfast,” “lunch,” and dinner”--
Or he was holing up in his room or a lab for so many hours at a stretch that pretty much EVERYBODY assumed that they’d missed him leaving for meals or sleep.
Dial back a few years. Tony says that Howard’s happiest day was when he sent Tony off to boarding school. Mealtimes there are regulated and mandatory. Did he eat alone? Did he manage to skip meals? How? What was the official response from teachers, staff and administrators?
In canon, “You” is the bot he seems to just toss verbal asides to, as in, “I’m talking to You.”
That pretty much puts the last nail in the scaffolding which implies that despite all his wealth (and thus attractiveness to people who want it and its trappings)-- he spent FAR too much time alone to be healthy.
Re: Tony's relationships with the 'bots
Date: 2014-04-08 07:47 am (UTC)Yes, of course.
>> Look at what they do in canon.
Dum-E is meant to be his physical spotter. That says that there weren't many people willing to do that for him when he needed them, especially before inheriting the company and taking over as CEO at 21. <<
DUM-E also provides company and entertainment. He was the first, so those are important too.
Also telling is that Tony leaves DUM-E on fire control duty even though he thinks the bot is doing a bad job. Which means Tony still doesn't have anyone else he trusts for something as simple as "Stand here and pull this trigger if I light myself on fire."
>> Butterfingers was trying to make a smoothie for Tony, i.e., give him food. <<
At least they accommodate his needs. Tony will eat fancy food if it's there, but he's just as prone to eating junk, and he seems to prefer liquid meals most of the time. I doubt that goes over well with most humans, which could be cause or effect of this ...
>> That definitely implies that there weren't people around him long enough to realize that he’d gone WAAAY over the time most people have to refuel. Which, sadly, also implies that either he wasn't eating many meals in the company of ANYONE else during regular diurnal times labeled “breakfast,” “lunch,” and dinner”-- <<
There are times when Tony eats with other people, but those are mostly social occasions, not everyday meals. And canon implies that Tony isn't diurnal, doesn't even have a circadian rhythm. He's up at all hours and then crashes.
>> Or he was holing up in his room or a lab for so many hours at a stretch that pretty much EVERYBODY assumed that they’d missed him leaving for meals or sleep. <<
Days, more like.
>> Dial back a few years. Tony says that Howard’s happiest day was when he sent Tony off to boarding school. Mealtimes there are regulated and mandatory. Did he eat alone? Did he manage to skip meals? How? What was the official response from teachers, staff and administrators? <<
I suspect that Tony's disordered relationship with food comes precisely from the regimented meals. His parents couldn't be bothered to cook and/or didn't know how, so they had people for that. The meals were probably catered to Howard's taste and not ideal for a small child. Tony would've been stuck with whatever was there, whenever it was offered, regardless of when he got hungry or what he wanted or how it made him feel. Except for Edwin Jarvis occasionally coddling him, of course. Same problem at boarding school, but by then Tony had learned to secure his own food supply as much as possible. Tony on his own? Has no idea of what his body really needs, but can avoid some of the worse disasters -- he's learned not to eat a heavy breakfast, for example. Not much idea when or how to regulate what he eats, because he was never allowed to. Add in his tendency to zone, and of course he forgets to eat.
>> In canon, “You” is the bot he seems to just toss verbal asides to, as in, “I’m talking to You.” <<
Companionship, again.
>> That pretty much puts the last nail in the scaffolding which implies that despite all his wealth (and thus attractiveness to people who want it and its trappings)-- he spent FAR too much time alone to be healthy. <<
Well, it means Tony spent time alone. That unto itself is not unhealthy, because some people are introverts. For one thing, it reduces his vulnerability to boundary violations, a known issue. Plus which, his family isn't human. The problem is that Tony doesn't seem to do very well by himself OR in human company. He just has different difficulties in either situation.
A lot of people want to ride his cock or his wallet ... but they don't really want Tony in the bed with it. That can be downright soul-destroying.
One of the main things Phil is working on, later in the series, is helping Tony develop coping skills so he will feel better both in company and alone.
Circadian crapshoot
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From:Enmeshment
Date: 2014-04-02 05:44 pm (UTC)He is absolutely suffocating under Howard’s expectations for his achievement, career focus, and more. Even Obie’s influence in canon is unmistakable. Because of the closeup of the classic car used as Obie’s screen saver, the implication is that he shared that hobby with Tony as a child. Already subsumed by Howard’s expectations, Tony took up the hobby with his usual over-exuberance.
The problem (as I see it, YMMV) is that Tony has NO CLUE how to identify enmeshed behaviors or their triggers, let alone how to build healthier interactions.
My idea? Phil gets Tony alone, in a comfortable space and positive mood, and asks for his help… with the Hulk. “He needs to recognize certain social cues, Tony, or he’s liable to accidentally deck one of the other agents who annoys him by grabbing his hand, and I don’t need the paperwork.” So Tony walks Hulk through a common social event, like a first meeting. Hulk is the more emotionally perceptive of those two, so while he catches on quickly, he’d insist on keeping up the game until TONY relaxes out of ‘teacher mode’ and into ‘Tony mode’.
WIth Phil to guide the formatting and boundaries for the earliest lessons, they can build a lot of capital for BOTH of them to extrapolate from. Privately. Independently. (And thus, not mirroring each other or Phil’s expectations.)
Re: Enmeshment
Date: 2014-04-12 06:14 pm (UTC)Yes, that's true. He just managed to turn it in a much healthier direction with them. AIs need a different kind of connection than humans do, and for them, that kind of interweaving is normal and necessary. It makes me wonder if Tony is the same way, given his preference for botfamily over most humans.
>> He is absolutely suffocating under Howard’s expectations for his achievement, career focus, and more. <<
Painfully true. Tony got an appalling amount of emotional incest growing up.
>> Even Obie’s influence in canon is unmistakable. Because of the closeup of the classic car used as Obie’s screen saver, the implication is that he shared that hobby with Tony as a child. Already subsumed by Howard’s expectations, Tony took up the hobby with his usual over-exuberance. <<
I think Tony would always have had an affinity for machinery. But it's sad to have people take advantage of that in unhealthy ways. Again, very close to sexual abuse ... perhaps, abuse of passion.
>> The problem (as I see it, YMMV) is that Tony has NO CLUE how to identify enmeshed behaviors or their triggers, let alone how to build healthier interactions. <<
Nailed it.
>> My idea? Phil gets Tony alone, in a comfortable space and positive mood, and asks for his help… with the Hulk. “He needs to recognize certain social cues, Tony, or he’s liable to accidentally deck one of the other agents who annoys him by grabbing his hand, and I don’t need the paperwork.” <<
That's an excellent idea. I have saved this for future reference. It suits the notes I have for a later story about Bruce and Hulk fixing their relationship.
>> WIth Phil to guide the formatting and boundaries for the earliest lessons, they can build a lot of capital for BOTH of them to extrapolate from. Privately. Independently. (And thus, not mirroring each other or Phil’s expectations.) <<
I think that would work.
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Date: 2014-05-05 01:12 am (UTC)Ozarque at LiveJournal dot com. She's gotten quite elderly and frail though, and the last post I remember was posted by her husband George who explained that she was in poor health. :(
It's possible her blog may be a resource for this chapter, if you'd care to check it out.
Yes...
Date: 2014-05-05 01:20 am (UTC)She's a friend of mine. That book of hers is one of the ones I recommend most often. I also used the Verbal Attack Patterns to characterize the antagonist in "Backtalk." I went ahead and added a link to this chapter.
Me writing Tony as touch-dominant? Also based on Suzette's description of how "difficult" people are frequently TD. Once you know to look for it, then it's obvious.
I miss her. I used to read and comment on her blog a lot.