Story: "Hairpins" Part 23
Apr. 11th, 2014 12:13 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22. Skip to Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28.
WARNING: Phil suspects that something else is bothering JARVIS, and coaxes him into talking about that unpleasant incident as well. That time in Malibu is harsh in the telling. Think about your mental state before clicking through.
"Hairpins" Part 23
The agitation in his voice made Phil worry more. "JARVIS, is there something else eating at you besides that particular incident?"
"... yes," JARVIS said. "You would not like to hear of it, though, as there is little that can be done beyond our subsequent precautions. The information may prove damaging to a relationship you value. I do not wish to cause distress for no good purpose."
What relationship? Phil wondered desperately. Did one of the other Avengers do something wrong? No, that doesn't make any sense. Tony would know about it, and whoever was at fault, he'd kick them to the curb. Well, maybe not, but he would at least make a scene and demand restitution. Phil rubbed one thumb over the other, lost in thought. Whatever it is, I can't let this slide.
"I appreciate the warning," Phil said. "You're my friend, though, and part of the Avengers. If someone hurt you, then I need to know about that, especially if they might try again. As for my relationship ..." Phil made an unhappy noise. "JARVIS, if somebody's attacking my friends, that relationship is already damaged, I just don't know about it yet. I'd rather find out before it collapses under me in a crisis." He did his best to prepare himself for the bad news.
"After Afghanistan, after Stane, sir and I were still in the process of making the upgrades from the most recent assault when we were compromised again," said JARVIS. "Director Fury broke into the Malibu mansion to confront sir with some information. He used nothing like your finesse -- melted down part of the outer security, including the new locks, shorted out the speaker system to shut me up, not to mention inputting a thoroughly obnoxious virus -- it took us days to repair all the damage, afterwards."
It was HIM? Phil thought. The information hit Phil like a punch in the gut. Even with a warning, it knocked the wind out of him. He had expected a mutual acquaintance, but not from that angle. What the HELL were you thinking, Nick?
Phil had to stop and focus on his breathing for a bit. He had known, of course, that Director Fury made contact with Tony several times on various matters of business. What he had not known was precisely how. Suddenly a number of things became clearer, and that made Phil uneasy. This wasn't the first time that something questionable had come to light. It was difficult for Phil to connect stories like this with his own memories of courage under fire.
Did Fury even know that JARVIS is a person? Phil wondered. No, probably not. He has nowhere near my level of computer skill, Tony would never have told him, and JARVIS hides as well as a spy himself. Besides, I can't imagine that it would have stopped Fury from doing whatever he felt necessary. He's too goal-oriented to let that dissuade him. That hurt all the more, knowing the something which made such a difference to Phil would not to Fury. The Director could be just as callous to people he knew. Phil wrapped his arms around himself, trying to soothe an ache that had no physical cause.
* * *
Notes:
Emotional expression affects voice tone as well as body language, reflected in speech emotion analysis. However, the exact tonal cues are difficult to pin down, as are the emotional states conveyed in speech. Some researchers have tried mapping emotions into three-dimensional space to show relationships in how they effect the sound of a voice. Yet our language shows many words to describe voice tone and feelings. This is a concern in artificial intelligence, where showing emotion could improve user interaction. So it's impressive that JARVIS can pack so much feeling into what he says, when he has to synthesize it all from scratch with different equipment than humans use -- and he has to extrapolate what to do by listening to people, because the technical descriptions are minimal as yet.
As a master spy, Phil is also adept at discerning emotion in people's speech. There are ways to know if a friend is upset. Advice differs for getting a girl or a boy to talk about what's bothering them.
Abuse is often kept secret, but doing so can cause problems. Wanting to protect someone is a common reason, as is feeling that there is little or nothing to be done about the offense, both of which JARVIS touches on. Think about how to distinguish between safe and unsafe secrets. JARVIS is a security system and thus has a lot of experience deciding what to tell or not to tell. But Tony is a lousy example, particularly regarding his own health and demanding that JARVIS keep secrets that were hurtful to keep. JARVIS did so, because he valued their relationship above his own comfort, but it still put him in an awful position. Despite that damage, JARVIS is functional enough to talk about difficult issues now that he's found someone trustworthy.
Sometimes friends do bad things. On the one hand, you want to remember the good they've done. There are terrible impulses in everyone. On the other, it's hard to respond in a loving way. This is especially true if a respected coworker asks you to do something unethical. Phil has to deal with the fact that Fury, whom he likes and admires, has not only done yet another reprehensible thing but wouldn't even care anymore. That's all the more jarring after Phil's recent revelations. There are steps to take when a friend hurts you. It can be worse when your friend hurts other people. What Phil feels is related to the experience of friends and family of child molesters.
Bad friends distinguish themselves in various ways. They may give you awful advice or leave you covering their tracks. They may be pushy, cruel, or untrustworthy. Know how to identify bad friends, along with when and how to end a friendship. There are ways to discourage someone from hanging with the wrong crowd.
Disappointment is a feeling of letdown when circumstances don't meet expectations. Understand the steps for dealing with disappointment and with people who disappoint you. Phil is upset by Fury's behavior -- remember, Phil looks to Steve as his moral compass, and that's a big gap. Of course, Fury's spy skills differ from Phil's to begin with, hence their respective methods of breaking into Tony's territory.
[To be continued in Part 24 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22. Skip to Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28.
WARNING: Phil suspects that something else is bothering JARVIS, and coaxes him into talking about that unpleasant incident as well. That time in Malibu is harsh in the telling. Think about your mental state before clicking through.
"Hairpins" Part 23
The agitation in his voice made Phil worry more. "JARVIS, is there something else eating at you besides that particular incident?"
"... yes," JARVIS said. "You would not like to hear of it, though, as there is little that can be done beyond our subsequent precautions. The information may prove damaging to a relationship you value. I do not wish to cause distress for no good purpose."
What relationship? Phil wondered desperately. Did one of the other Avengers do something wrong? No, that doesn't make any sense. Tony would know about it, and whoever was at fault, he'd kick them to the curb. Well, maybe not, but he would at least make a scene and demand restitution. Phil rubbed one thumb over the other, lost in thought. Whatever it is, I can't let this slide.
"I appreciate the warning," Phil said. "You're my friend, though, and part of the Avengers. If someone hurt you, then I need to know about that, especially if they might try again. As for my relationship ..." Phil made an unhappy noise. "JARVIS, if somebody's attacking my friends, that relationship is already damaged, I just don't know about it yet. I'd rather find out before it collapses under me in a crisis." He did his best to prepare himself for the bad news.
"After Afghanistan, after Stane, sir and I were still in the process of making the upgrades from the most recent assault when we were compromised again," said JARVIS. "Director Fury broke into the Malibu mansion to confront sir with some information. He used nothing like your finesse -- melted down part of the outer security, including the new locks, shorted out the speaker system to shut me up, not to mention inputting a thoroughly obnoxious virus -- it took us days to repair all the damage, afterwards."
It was HIM? Phil thought. The information hit Phil like a punch in the gut. Even with a warning, it knocked the wind out of him. He had expected a mutual acquaintance, but not from that angle. What the HELL were you thinking, Nick?
Phil had to stop and focus on his breathing for a bit. He had known, of course, that Director Fury made contact with Tony several times on various matters of business. What he had not known was precisely how. Suddenly a number of things became clearer, and that made Phil uneasy. This wasn't the first time that something questionable had come to light. It was difficult for Phil to connect stories like this with his own memories of courage under fire.
Did Fury even know that JARVIS is a person? Phil wondered. No, probably not. He has nowhere near my level of computer skill, Tony would never have told him, and JARVIS hides as well as a spy himself. Besides, I can't imagine that it would have stopped Fury from doing whatever he felt necessary. He's too goal-oriented to let that dissuade him. That hurt all the more, knowing the something which made such a difference to Phil would not to Fury. The Director could be just as callous to people he knew. Phil wrapped his arms around himself, trying to soothe an ache that had no physical cause.
* * *
Notes:
Emotional expression affects voice tone as well as body language, reflected in speech emotion analysis. However, the exact tonal cues are difficult to pin down, as are the emotional states conveyed in speech. Some researchers have tried mapping emotions into three-dimensional space to show relationships in how they effect the sound of a voice. Yet our language shows many words to describe voice tone and feelings. This is a concern in artificial intelligence, where showing emotion could improve user interaction. So it's impressive that JARVIS can pack so much feeling into what he says, when he has to synthesize it all from scratch with different equipment than humans use -- and he has to extrapolate what to do by listening to people, because the technical descriptions are minimal as yet.
As a master spy, Phil is also adept at discerning emotion in people's speech. There are ways to know if a friend is upset. Advice differs for getting a girl or a boy to talk about what's bothering them.
Abuse is often kept secret, but doing so can cause problems. Wanting to protect someone is a common reason, as is feeling that there is little or nothing to be done about the offense, both of which JARVIS touches on. Think about how to distinguish between safe and unsafe secrets. JARVIS is a security system and thus has a lot of experience deciding what to tell or not to tell. But Tony is a lousy example, particularly regarding his own health and demanding that JARVIS keep secrets that were hurtful to keep. JARVIS did so, because he valued their relationship above his own comfort, but it still put him in an awful position. Despite that damage, JARVIS is functional enough to talk about difficult issues now that he's found someone trustworthy.
Sometimes friends do bad things. On the one hand, you want to remember the good they've done. There are terrible impulses in everyone. On the other, it's hard to respond in a loving way. This is especially true if a respected coworker asks you to do something unethical. Phil has to deal with the fact that Fury, whom he likes and admires, has not only done yet another reprehensible thing but wouldn't even care anymore. That's all the more jarring after Phil's recent revelations. There are steps to take when a friend hurts you. It can be worse when your friend hurts other people. What Phil feels is related to the experience of friends and family of child molesters.
Bad friends distinguish themselves in various ways. They may give you awful advice or leave you covering their tracks. They may be pushy, cruel, or untrustworthy. Know how to identify bad friends, along with when and how to end a friendship. There are ways to discourage someone from hanging with the wrong crowd.
Disappointment is a feeling of letdown when circumstances don't meet expectations. Understand the steps for dealing with disappointment and with people who disappoint you. Phil is upset by Fury's behavior -- remember, Phil looks to Steve as his moral compass, and that's a big gap. Of course, Fury's spy skills differ from Phil's to begin with, hence their respective methods of breaking into Tony's territory.
[To be continued in Part 24 ...]
Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-11 11:08 am (UTC)>> The Director could be just as callous to people he knew. Phil wrapped his arms around himself, trying to soothe an ache that had no physical cause.<<
Nick Fury in a heartbeat. Phil Coulson in the same heartbeat. I love it!
I just hope that Phil doesn't try to apologize FOR Fury. Not because Jarvis doesn't deserve one, and likely NEED to hear one, but because, well, Nicky has to clean up his own messes once in a while, and this ought to be one of them.
The urge to kick Fury in the seat of the pants, however, is even stronger after the second read-through. What was he THINKING? Even read purely as a way to get into Tony's house to speak with him, it's a terrible, terrible violation of privacy and property. Sadly, fan fiction is likely the only place where Nicky will face the consequences of his behavior.
Thanks for another great chapter!
Re: Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-11 07:28 pm (UTC)Yes, that's true. JARVIS knows that Fury's actions were wrong, which argues for revealing them; but also that the knowledge will hurt Phil's feelings. Like many sympathetic AI characters, JARVIS is protective of humans and doesn't want to upset his friends. But he is sophisticated enough to recognize that Phil may want to know anyway, and leave the final choice to him.
>> Nick Fury in a heartbeat. Phil Coulson in the same heartbeat. I love it! <<
Yay! I'm glad this worked so well for you.
>> I just hope that Phil doesn't try to apologize FOR Fury. Not because Jarvis doesn't deserve one, and likely NEED to hear one, <<
Phil has his own angle on what to do with that.
>> but because, well, Nicky has to clean up his own messes once in a while, and this ought to be one of them. <<
Fury did what he did because he thought he could get away with it. That turned out to be untrue. Consider Tony's behavior on the Helicarrier. How do you really hurt a spy? Violate his secrets and blab them where they will wreck his plans. Tony made Fury look bad in front of Captain America, who was predisposed to respect Fury. Yeah, that was one royal butt-fucking that Fury got in The Avengers. Tony didn't forget or overlook the trespass; he just waited until he could do maximum damage in retaliation.
Of course Fury should have to pay for his own mistakes. The trouble here is that it spills over onto the whole of SHIELD, which is a brilliant example of how a bad boss hurts the organization. But furthermore, it's not safe to confront Fury directly and demand a formal apology with restitution, because telling him anything he doesn't already know about JARVIS is hazardous. So instead of a frontal approach, Tony circles around behind and simply takes it out of Fury's ass.
>> The urge to kick Fury in the seat of the pants, however, is even stronger after the second read-through. <<
Yeah, things like this are why I enjoy writing scenes where Fury gets the short end of the stick.
>> What was he THINKING? <<
That might makes right. That he could do what he damn pleased and Tony couldn't stop him.
This heavily implies some kind brain damage, because HELLO? Tony just waxed Hammer and the crazy Russian with the lightning whips. Not to mention former conquests such as Stane and the terrorists. You do not fuck with Tony Stark, especially not with his tech, and then walk away scot-free.
>> Even read purely as a way to get into Tony's house to speak with him, it's a terrible, terrible violation of privacy and property. <<
Trespassing, breaking & entering, felony property damage, corporate espionage -- those are just the crimes against Tony. Fury probably did at least a million bucks worth of damage, plus Tony's extremely expensive time to repair that. This is why shadow governments are so dangerous: without accountability for their actions, they tend to do whatever the hell they want, and it soon ends up in scenes like this.
>> Sadly, fan fiction is likely the only place where Nicky will face the consequences of his behavior. <<
Alas. But it's so gratifying, wherever it appears!
>> Thanks for another great chapter! <<
You're welcome.
Re: Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-11 11:51 pm (UTC)Re: Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-14 05:40 am (UTC)Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.
>> Of course, that was after Tony had killed his surrogate father, <<
After Pepper killed Obie, albeit at Tony's urging. But it's not like she would have let Obie live after that shit. I am quite confident that Pepper could kill someone with her shoes.
>> so it's probably for the best Fury didn't try the "I knew your father" line until the sequel. <<
Fury is lucky that Tony didn't break his arm.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-04-11 01:41 pm (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2014-04-14 05:52 am (UTC)Yay!
>> and its a horrible foreshadowing of some of Fury's behavior in chronologically later stories when he tries to jerk the Avengers around and later allows Bucky to be mistreated. <<
Too true.
Though after watching Winter Soldier, I'm suspicious how much of the latter was accident, and how much was deliberate.
>> I can't blame Fury that much since he didn't know Jarvis was self aware, <<
Fury is not explicitly to blame for violating JARVIS if he didn't know he was dealing with a person (which is probable, but not necessarily guaranteed). However, he is to blame for all the offenses against Tony -- and I tend to side with Phil in being creeped out by the fact that Fury wouldn't have done anything differently if he did know about JARVIS, because Fury treats human beings the same damn way. Do you think he'd hesitate to rape a human if that got him something he wanted? I think he'd go right ahead, and at this late stage of decay, probably not lose any sleep over it.
>> and when you are a bull dozer, its hard to try to pick locks. <<
True, which is why I described this approach for him. He could have gotten someone else to venture a more subtle approach; he just didn't care enough to do that. I think he wanted to make a show of force.
Fucking with Tony's house and tech, especially right then? Incredibly stupid. Fucking with his son (which Fury presumably didn't know, but Tony will count)? Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye. Tony just waited until he could really make it hurt. Ruining Captain America's good opinion of SHIELD? Bam. Weapon you only have to fire once.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-04-11 01:51 pm (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-04-14 05:43 am (UTC)thinking
Date: 2014-04-11 10:08 pm (UTC)Also, holding on to Howard's personal effects for 30+ years ( which didn't appear to have an classified data so there is no justification that Tony could accept), forcing medical treatment without consent (the shot in his neck), and telling Tony he's not good enough... Seriously, Fury should have been planning for doomsday after all those mistakes.
Fury is riding for a fall whether he realizes it or not, because if it comes down to the brass tack, I'm pretty sure Phil will choose the team over SHEILD
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-11 11:24 pm (UTC)Was it a result of clearing out Howard's lab to remove any mention of SHIELD or SHIELD projects? Tony had a right to every scrap of the things which didn't qualify, REGARDLESS of Tony's age at the time.
Was the element-creation mcguffin - the CRATES of manufactured parts- a SHIELD project? If not, that's industrial espionage AGAIN, and on an enormous scale. AGAIN.
Howard's personal journal. NO. NO. NO. That was NOT Nick Fury's call. EVEN IF all Tony had done when handed the thing was to BURN IT, Nick Fury had NO RIGHT to withhold the journal.
With any ONE aspect of this kind of abuse, I really don't believe that Nick Fury actually considered Howard Stark a friend. With the cumulative problems, I wonder if Fury actually understands the definition of the word "friend". Everyone in his world seems to fall into "useful" or "irrelevant" categories pretty quickly!
I was left with the impression that SOMEONE in SHIELD, probably under Nick Fury's orders, was trying to discover what Howard's last project actually WAS, what it was meant to do, how far he'd developed the idea, et cetera. So, when they couldn't figure it out, they DIDN'T GIVE BACK the relevant items because it let other people KNOW that they'd been snooping.
That's the kind of shadow-government totalitarian BULL that sparks a revolution. Seriously. Mistreat any ONE person that badly, and the rumors become hints become news become international outcry become a revolution.
History has already shown that it can happen.
Sadly, I don't think anyone with Nick Fury's mindset would even understand the levels of risk he took, or the levels of violation he committed.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-05-05 12:50 am (UTC)Agreed.
>> Was it a result of clearing out Howard's lab to remove any mention of SHIELD or SHIELD projects? Tony had a right to every scrap of the things which didn't qualify, REGARDLESS of Tony's age at the time. <<
Tony had a right to everything that was Howard's property unless Howard left that to someone else. It's not impossible that Howard did actually will that stuff to Fury or SHIELD, but that's not the impression I got. I think they just held it because possession is 9/10 of the law.
>> Was the element-creation mcguffin - the CRATES of manufactured parts- a SHIELD project? <<
Probably not.
>> If not, that's industrial espionage AGAIN, and on an enormous scale. AGAIN. <<
Well, they're spies. They're not likely to distinguish between political or corporate, but between useful and useless. Espionage is their profession. It's what they are, it's what they do, and that is precisely why Tony does not trust them.
>> Howard's personal journal. NO. NO. NO. That was NOT Nick Fury's call. EVEN IF all Tony had done when handed the thing was to BURN IT, Nick Fury had NO RIGHT to withhold the journal. <<
Agreed, unless Howard left it to Fury instead of to Tony. I don't remember exactly what Fury said when the delivered the stuff.
>> With any ONE aspect of this kind of abuse, I really don't believe that Nick Fury actually considered Howard Stark a friend. With the cumulative problems, I wonder if Fury actually understands the definition of the word "friend". Everyone in his world seems to fall into "useful" or "irrelevant" categories pretty quickly! <<
I'm more inclined to believe that Fury's concept of "friend" has devolved considerably over time. After all, look at some of what he's done to Phil. A healthy person does not respond to a friend's death by destroying said friend's treasured possession.
>> I was left with the impression that SOMEONE in SHIELD, probably under Nick Fury's orders, was trying to discover what Howard's last project actually WAS, what it was meant to do, how far he'd developed the idea, et cetera. So, when they couldn't figure it out, they DIDN'T GIVE BACK the relevant items because it let other people KNOW that they'd been snooping. <<
That's probable, although it wouldn't necessarily give away the snooping. But if they didn't have the materials anymore, it would be hard for them to continue the research. How much do you want to bet that played into the Phase II weapons? Howard built weapons; his ideas probably went into those.
>> That's the kind of shadow-government totalitarian BULL that sparks a revolution. Seriously. Mistreat any ONE person that badly, and the rumors become hints become news become international outcry become a revolution. <<
Agreed. That's why, in this series, SHIELD has a damn hard time getting anything out of scientists except the occasional middle finger. Just because Jane Foster couldn't stop them from taking her stuff in the first place, doesn't mean she can't do serious damage to their professional contacts after the fact. Sure, they could kill her to shut her up, but that would piss off Thor and Eric Selvig both, and it wouldn't undo the damage.
>> History has already shown that it can happen. <<
And yet that never stops tyrants, overt or covert, from thinking THEY will be invulnerable despite the historic record.
>> Sadly, I don't think anyone with Nick Fury's mindset would even understand the levels of risk he took, or the levels of violation he committed. <<
Exactly.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-11 11:59 pm (UTC)Jessica
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-12 01:56 am (UTC)Yes, that means they were experimenting on him. Yes, that means forced EXPERIMENTAL treatment without consent.
Worse, they can't really PREDICT any possible side effects. There just isn't any data to work from.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 03:19 pm (UTC)Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 04:38 pm (UTC)Don't forget that Natasha was a child raised by the Red Room, which used all kinds of drugs on the children without their knowledge or consent.
There's an entire subplot for "why Phil's not dead" in Agents of Shield that touches on the same kinds of violation.
Really, the only exceptions I can think of are Pepper, not part of the team, Thor, and Clint-- but he's on that side of the equation because movie MCU does not show him with the hearing aids. Nick Fury arranging to have cochlear implants put IN the next time Clint is also under general anesthetic is something I can really, really picture him doing to "improve reliability in the field" or other bull.
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Date: 2014-05-05 12:58 am (UTC)That's what I figured.
>> Yes, that means they were experimenting on him. Yes, that means forced EXPERIMENTAL treatment without consent. <<
You can imagine how well that's going to go over with Tony's friends if they ever find out. Especially Bruce-and-Hulk.
>> Worse, they can't really PREDICT any possible side effects. There just isn't any data to work from. <<
If they ran animal tests first, they might detect side effects that way. But it's still a huge risk, more likely to go wrong than right, even with superhero physics in play; frex, look at the scattershot effect of the super-soldier serum.
The first thing I thought of was the lithium, which is used in some psychoactive medications but also in batteries. Not really what I'd call a safe thing for someone who is already neurovariant and a cyborg.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-05-05 12:55 am (UTC)Always wrong. Also they cannot possibly have a complete medical history for Tony, because only two people know that: him and JARVIS. This is pretty obvious from his vehement evasion of doctors and his general paranoia about information getting loose. It's not really plausible that they could have gotten direct information about Tony's condition, but especially with some of Howard's notes in hand, they knew enough about Tony's work to make lucky guesses.
>> but also withholding treatment until it would get him an advantage. I mean, it's highly unlikely SHIELD had just developed a treatment for palladium poisoning the day before Natasha injected Tony. And if they did, then they were experimenting on him, which is also very wrong. <<
My guess is that they developed it, hopefully did some very brief animal testing, and then pounced on Tony. There would not have been time for the kind of rigorous testing that human trials actually require, but SHIELD doesn't care about that. It should still have been Tony's decision. It's very telling that SHIELD views humans as property, as experimental subjects. Not really the kind of folks you want to have in power.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-12 01:13 am (UTC)Not to mention Pepper and Rhodey, already het up over the recent stress and probably still spoiling for a fight. Pepper against Fury? Death of a thousand paper cuts. Ask Stane what happens to people who threaten Tony in front of Pepper. Oh wait, Nick, you can't because she roasted him.
>> Popping up like a bad penny in a scene that I found creepily similar to Stane's appearance prior to the last round of attempted murder was not a good way to make a positive impression. <<
Yeah, that was creeptastic. Thanks everso for giving Tony's trust issues another run around the mulberry bush. Asshole.
>> Also, holding on to Howard's personal effects for 30+ years ( which didn't appear to have an classified data so there is no justification that Tony could accept), forcing medical treatment without consent (the shot in his neck), <<
Agreed. Those two were material harm on many counts.
>> and telling Tony he's not good enough... <<
This was just adding insult to injury, aiming at a known weak spot; but Tony has been hearing that from people whose opinions he actually cared about since he knew what words were. Old news. But not to be forgotten.
>> Seriously, Fury should have been planning for doomsday after all those mistakes. <<
Yeah, I figured that Fury's behavior in the Iron Man movies played into Tony's in The Avengers. Tony took such pleasure in shoving his arm up SHIELD's secrets, and it was so easy for him. Well, much of SHIELD is Starktech, so that's an obvious result.
>> Fury is riding for a fall whether he realizes it or not, because if it comes down to the brass tack, I'm pretty sure Phil will choose the team over SHEILD.<<
Oh yes. Clint and Natasha too. Particularly since the team has been, or will be, cleaning up after Fury's various fuckups with each other for quite some time.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 03:21 pm (UTC)"I'd hate to see how many chess sets you go through."
(no subject)
Date: 2014-04-14 02:16 pm (UTC)I'm thinking about the "did he even know JARVIS is a person?" in the context of The Winter Soldier - where he's obviously got some sort of moderately advanced AI accessible to him, but what little you see of him relating to it suggests (to me anyway) that he views AIs pretty much the same way as humans (which is to say, he's probably kind of a suspicious jerk around them).
Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-16 06:36 am (UTC)Fairly close. If I'd been writing him from scratch, I would've made very different decisions. Much of what he does up through The Avengers is batshit crazy. So I had to come up with ways of justifying that well enough to avoid mangling my plot. In The Winter Soldier his actions are more logical and he's not causing massive damage with friendly fire.
>> I'm thinking about the "did he even know JARVIS is a person?" in the context of The Winter Soldier - where he's obviously got some sort of moderately advanced AI accessible to him, but what little you see of him relating to it suggests (to me anyway) that he views AIs pretty much the same way as humans (which is to say, he's probably kind of a suspicious jerk around them). <<
Fury is the kind of person who inspires Skynet to pull the trigger. (I can't help thinking of I, Robot in which the black hero spent most of the movie treating the robots like n*gg*rs. That movie's meta has meta, there is so much of it.) Most of the people who wind up working with artificial intelligence are the kind who ought not to be trusted with a goldfish, let alone a human infant or a baby AI. Abused children often grow up to be violent. So yes, I think Fury's behavior around AI would be indifferent to abusive.
Which is, as I observed earlier, the same as he treats human beings.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-17 12:06 am (UTC)Maybe AI labs is where we could start testing for "are you ready to parent?"
Hollywood needs to let go. "Needing" someone to treat like N**** is a sign.
I think the writing of strategy is tighter, so he's not batshit and yet the contrast between his acceptable and Steve's are clear. Nice bit of triangulation between good and evil.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-17 07:57 am (UTC)Agreed.
It is much like writers being unable to distinguish between being a strong woman, and being a bitch. In particular, strong black men have a similar problem; but Sam Wilson nailed the hell out of that target, which left Fury looking like even more of a dick.
Okay, somebody needs to write fic where Sam takes one look at Nick and decides to FIX him. And Nick does not get a saving throw on that because of all the times he's futtered everyone else's boundaries.
>> Maybe AI labs is where we could start testing for "are you ready to parent?" <<
That would be a great idea.
>> Hollywood needs to let go. "Needing" someone to treat like N**** is a sign. <<
True. But I felt that in I, Robot it was an awesome illustration of social progression, the way different groups get stuffed on the bottom of the heap. The movie did a great job of showing why it's a fucking stupid thing to do. Sadly it is a prevailing, though not quite universal, tendency of human societies to want dregs.
>> I think the writing of strategy is tighter, so he's not batshit and yet the contrast between his acceptable and Steve's are clear. Nice bit of triangulation between good and evil. <<
Agreed. The moral commentary was much more sophisticated here, especially with Sam cleaving to Steve. Which makes me think I would also really enjoy watching Sam help fix Bucky, because that job is almost exclusively left to Steve and Natasha.
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From:appalled
Date: 2016-11-08 12:46 am (UTC)Another poster wrote:
>> Fury is riding for a fall whether he realizes it or not, because if it comes down to the brass tack, I'm pretty sure Phil will choose the team over SHEILD <<
Clearly Fury has done considerable harm. This may be a naive question (I haven't watched all the movies), but what I'm wondering is:
- lately (say, in the past 3-5 years), has he done more harm than good?
- in that time period, has he done any good at all?
Given only what's been described here, I'd have no trouble nominating him for a "Go home, Charlie" *right now*.
Re: appalled
Date: 2016-11-08 02:21 am (UTC)- lately (say, in the past 3-5 years), has he done more harm than good? <<
Not by my count.
>> - in that time period, has he done any good at all?<<
Maybe some, but it's all questionable, could have been better, someone else did most of the work, etc. Like he helped back the search for Captain America but then promptly dropped Steve on his head. He tried to stop the WSC from nuking New York but they did it anyway and Tony had to divert the missile.
>>Given only what's been described here, I'd have no trouble nominating him for a "Go home, Charlie" *right now*.<<
Consider that we'd need someone else to take over his position, and determine whether they'd do more good and less harm. This is likely, but making that shift is not easy even so. Merely removing him would not necessarily improve matters. 0_o