Story: "Hairpins" Part 23
Apr. 11th, 2014 12:13 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22. Skip to Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28.
WARNING: Phil suspects that something else is bothering JARVIS, and coaxes him into talking about that unpleasant incident as well. That time in Malibu is harsh in the telling. Think about your mental state before clicking through.
"Hairpins" Part 23
The agitation in his voice made Phil worry more. "JARVIS, is there something else eating at you besides that particular incident?"
"... yes," JARVIS said. "You would not like to hear of it, though, as there is little that can be done beyond our subsequent precautions. The information may prove damaging to a relationship you value. I do not wish to cause distress for no good purpose."
What relationship? Phil wondered desperately. Did one of the other Avengers do something wrong? No, that doesn't make any sense. Tony would know about it, and whoever was at fault, he'd kick them to the curb. Well, maybe not, but he would at least make a scene and demand restitution. Phil rubbed one thumb over the other, lost in thought. Whatever it is, I can't let this slide.
"I appreciate the warning," Phil said. "You're my friend, though, and part of the Avengers. If someone hurt you, then I need to know about that, especially if they might try again. As for my relationship ..." Phil made an unhappy noise. "JARVIS, if somebody's attacking my friends, that relationship is already damaged, I just don't know about it yet. I'd rather find out before it collapses under me in a crisis." He did his best to prepare himself for the bad news.
"After Afghanistan, after Stane, sir and I were still in the process of making the upgrades from the most recent assault when we were compromised again," said JARVIS. "Director Fury broke into the Malibu mansion to confront sir with some information. He used nothing like your finesse -- melted down part of the outer security, including the new locks, shorted out the speaker system to shut me up, not to mention inputting a thoroughly obnoxious virus -- it took us days to repair all the damage, afterwards."
It was HIM? Phil thought. The information hit Phil like a punch in the gut. Even with a warning, it knocked the wind out of him. He had expected a mutual acquaintance, but not from that angle. What the HELL were you thinking, Nick?
Phil had to stop and focus on his breathing for a bit. He had known, of course, that Director Fury made contact with Tony several times on various matters of business. What he had not known was precisely how. Suddenly a number of things became clearer, and that made Phil uneasy. This wasn't the first time that something questionable had come to light. It was difficult for Phil to connect stories like this with his own memories of courage under fire.
Did Fury even know that JARVIS is a person? Phil wondered. No, probably not. He has nowhere near my level of computer skill, Tony would never have told him, and JARVIS hides as well as a spy himself. Besides, I can't imagine that it would have stopped Fury from doing whatever he felt necessary. He's too goal-oriented to let that dissuade him. That hurt all the more, knowing the something which made such a difference to Phil would not to Fury. The Director could be just as callous to people he knew. Phil wrapped his arms around himself, trying to soothe an ache that had no physical cause.
* * *
Notes:
Emotional expression affects voice tone as well as body language, reflected in speech emotion analysis. However, the exact tonal cues are difficult to pin down, as are the emotional states conveyed in speech. Some researchers have tried mapping emotions into three-dimensional space to show relationships in how they effect the sound of a voice. Yet our language shows many words to describe voice tone and feelings. This is a concern in artificial intelligence, where showing emotion could improve user interaction. So it's impressive that JARVIS can pack so much feeling into what he says, when he has to synthesize it all from scratch with different equipment than humans use -- and he has to extrapolate what to do by listening to people, because the technical descriptions are minimal as yet.
As a master spy, Phil is also adept at discerning emotion in people's speech. There are ways to know if a friend is upset. Advice differs for getting a girl or a boy to talk about what's bothering them.
Abuse is often kept secret, but doing so can cause problems. Wanting to protect someone is a common reason, as is feeling that there is little or nothing to be done about the offense, both of which JARVIS touches on. Think about how to distinguish between safe and unsafe secrets. JARVIS is a security system and thus has a lot of experience deciding what to tell or not to tell. But Tony is a lousy example, particularly regarding his own health and demanding that JARVIS keep secrets that were hurtful to keep. JARVIS did so, because he valued their relationship above his own comfort, but it still put him in an awful position. Despite that damage, JARVIS is functional enough to talk about difficult issues now that he's found someone trustworthy.
Sometimes friends do bad things. On the one hand, you want to remember the good they've done. There are terrible impulses in everyone. On the other, it's hard to respond in a loving way. This is especially true if a respected coworker asks you to do something unethical. Phil has to deal with the fact that Fury, whom he likes and admires, has not only done yet another reprehensible thing but wouldn't even care anymore. That's all the more jarring after Phil's recent revelations. There are steps to take when a friend hurts you. It can be worse when your friend hurts other people. What Phil feels is related to the experience of friends and family of child molesters.
Bad friends distinguish themselves in various ways. They may give you awful advice or leave you covering their tracks. They may be pushy, cruel, or untrustworthy. Know how to identify bad friends, along with when and how to end a friendship. There are ways to discourage someone from hanging with the wrong crowd.
Disappointment is a feeling of letdown when circumstances don't meet expectations. Understand the steps for dealing with disappointment and with people who disappoint you. Phil is upset by Fury's behavior -- remember, Phil looks to Steve as his moral compass, and that's a big gap. Of course, Fury's spy skills differ from Phil's to begin with, hence their respective methods of breaking into Tony's territory.
[To be continued in Part 24 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22. Skip to Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28.
WARNING: Phil suspects that something else is bothering JARVIS, and coaxes him into talking about that unpleasant incident as well. That time in Malibu is harsh in the telling. Think about your mental state before clicking through.
"Hairpins" Part 23
The agitation in his voice made Phil worry more. "JARVIS, is there something else eating at you besides that particular incident?"
"... yes," JARVIS said. "You would not like to hear of it, though, as there is little that can be done beyond our subsequent precautions. The information may prove damaging to a relationship you value. I do not wish to cause distress for no good purpose."
What relationship? Phil wondered desperately. Did one of the other Avengers do something wrong? No, that doesn't make any sense. Tony would know about it, and whoever was at fault, he'd kick them to the curb. Well, maybe not, but he would at least make a scene and demand restitution. Phil rubbed one thumb over the other, lost in thought. Whatever it is, I can't let this slide.
"I appreciate the warning," Phil said. "You're my friend, though, and part of the Avengers. If someone hurt you, then I need to know about that, especially if they might try again. As for my relationship ..." Phil made an unhappy noise. "JARVIS, if somebody's attacking my friends, that relationship is already damaged, I just don't know about it yet. I'd rather find out before it collapses under me in a crisis." He did his best to prepare himself for the bad news.
"After Afghanistan, after Stane, sir and I were still in the process of making the upgrades from the most recent assault when we were compromised again," said JARVIS. "Director Fury broke into the Malibu mansion to confront sir with some information. He used nothing like your finesse -- melted down part of the outer security, including the new locks, shorted out the speaker system to shut me up, not to mention inputting a thoroughly obnoxious virus -- it took us days to repair all the damage, afterwards."
It was HIM? Phil thought. The information hit Phil like a punch in the gut. Even with a warning, it knocked the wind out of him. He had expected a mutual acquaintance, but not from that angle. What the HELL were you thinking, Nick?
Phil had to stop and focus on his breathing for a bit. He had known, of course, that Director Fury made contact with Tony several times on various matters of business. What he had not known was precisely how. Suddenly a number of things became clearer, and that made Phil uneasy. This wasn't the first time that something questionable had come to light. It was difficult for Phil to connect stories like this with his own memories of courage under fire.
Did Fury even know that JARVIS is a person? Phil wondered. No, probably not. He has nowhere near my level of computer skill, Tony would never have told him, and JARVIS hides as well as a spy himself. Besides, I can't imagine that it would have stopped Fury from doing whatever he felt necessary. He's too goal-oriented to let that dissuade him. That hurt all the more, knowing the something which made such a difference to Phil would not to Fury. The Director could be just as callous to people he knew. Phil wrapped his arms around himself, trying to soothe an ache that had no physical cause.
* * *
Notes:
Emotional expression affects voice tone as well as body language, reflected in speech emotion analysis. However, the exact tonal cues are difficult to pin down, as are the emotional states conveyed in speech. Some researchers have tried mapping emotions into three-dimensional space to show relationships in how they effect the sound of a voice. Yet our language shows many words to describe voice tone and feelings. This is a concern in artificial intelligence, where showing emotion could improve user interaction. So it's impressive that JARVIS can pack so much feeling into what he says, when he has to synthesize it all from scratch with different equipment than humans use -- and he has to extrapolate what to do by listening to people, because the technical descriptions are minimal as yet.
As a master spy, Phil is also adept at discerning emotion in people's speech. There are ways to know if a friend is upset. Advice differs for getting a girl or a boy to talk about what's bothering them.
Abuse is often kept secret, but doing so can cause problems. Wanting to protect someone is a common reason, as is feeling that there is little or nothing to be done about the offense, both of which JARVIS touches on. Think about how to distinguish between safe and unsafe secrets. JARVIS is a security system and thus has a lot of experience deciding what to tell or not to tell. But Tony is a lousy example, particularly regarding his own health and demanding that JARVIS keep secrets that were hurtful to keep. JARVIS did so, because he valued their relationship above his own comfort, but it still put him in an awful position. Despite that damage, JARVIS is functional enough to talk about difficult issues now that he's found someone trustworthy.
Sometimes friends do bad things. On the one hand, you want to remember the good they've done. There are terrible impulses in everyone. On the other, it's hard to respond in a loving way. This is especially true if a respected coworker asks you to do something unethical. Phil has to deal with the fact that Fury, whom he likes and admires, has not only done yet another reprehensible thing but wouldn't even care anymore. That's all the more jarring after Phil's recent revelations. There are steps to take when a friend hurts you. It can be worse when your friend hurts other people. What Phil feels is related to the experience of friends and family of child molesters.
Bad friends distinguish themselves in various ways. They may give you awful advice or leave you covering their tracks. They may be pushy, cruel, or untrustworthy. Know how to identify bad friends, along with when and how to end a friendship. There are ways to discourage someone from hanging with the wrong crowd.
Disappointment is a feeling of letdown when circumstances don't meet expectations. Understand the steps for dealing with disappointment and with people who disappoint you. Phil is upset by Fury's behavior -- remember, Phil looks to Steve as his moral compass, and that's a big gap. Of course, Fury's spy skills differ from Phil's to begin with, hence their respective methods of breaking into Tony's territory.
[To be continued in Part 24 ...]
Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-11 11:08 am (UTC)>> The Director could be just as callous to people he knew. Phil wrapped his arms around himself, trying to soothe an ache that had no physical cause.<<
Nick Fury in a heartbeat. Phil Coulson in the same heartbeat. I love it!
I just hope that Phil doesn't try to apologize FOR Fury. Not because Jarvis doesn't deserve one, and likely NEED to hear one, but because, well, Nicky has to clean up his own messes once in a while, and this ought to be one of them.
The urge to kick Fury in the seat of the pants, however, is even stronger after the second read-through. What was he THINKING? Even read purely as a way to get into Tony's house to speak with him, it's a terrible, terrible violation of privacy and property. Sadly, fan fiction is likely the only place where Nicky will face the consequences of his behavior.
Thanks for another great chapter!
Re: Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-11 07:28 pm (UTC)Yes, that's true. JARVIS knows that Fury's actions were wrong, which argues for revealing them; but also that the knowledge will hurt Phil's feelings. Like many sympathetic AI characters, JARVIS is protective of humans and doesn't want to upset his friends. But he is sophisticated enough to recognize that Phil may want to know anyway, and leave the final choice to him.
>> Nick Fury in a heartbeat. Phil Coulson in the same heartbeat. I love it! <<
Yay! I'm glad this worked so well for you.
>> I just hope that Phil doesn't try to apologize FOR Fury. Not because Jarvis doesn't deserve one, and likely NEED to hear one, <<
Phil has his own angle on what to do with that.
>> but because, well, Nicky has to clean up his own messes once in a while, and this ought to be one of them. <<
Fury did what he did because he thought he could get away with it. That turned out to be untrue. Consider Tony's behavior on the Helicarrier. How do you really hurt a spy? Violate his secrets and blab them where they will wreck his plans. Tony made Fury look bad in front of Captain America, who was predisposed to respect Fury. Yeah, that was one royal butt-fucking that Fury got in The Avengers. Tony didn't forget or overlook the trespass; he just waited until he could do maximum damage in retaliation.
Of course Fury should have to pay for his own mistakes. The trouble here is that it spills over onto the whole of SHIELD, which is a brilliant example of how a bad boss hurts the organization. But furthermore, it's not safe to confront Fury directly and demand a formal apology with restitution, because telling him anything he doesn't already know about JARVIS is hazardous. So instead of a frontal approach, Tony circles around behind and simply takes it out of Fury's ass.
>> The urge to kick Fury in the seat of the pants, however, is even stronger after the second read-through. <<
Yeah, things like this are why I enjoy writing scenes where Fury gets the short end of the stick.
>> What was he THINKING? <<
That might makes right. That he could do what he damn pleased and Tony couldn't stop him.
This heavily implies some kind brain damage, because HELLO? Tony just waxed Hammer and the crazy Russian with the lightning whips. Not to mention former conquests such as Stane and the terrorists. You do not fuck with Tony Stark, especially not with his tech, and then walk away scot-free.
>> Even read purely as a way to get into Tony's house to speak with him, it's a terrible, terrible violation of privacy and property. <<
Trespassing, breaking & entering, felony property damage, corporate espionage -- those are just the crimes against Tony. Fury probably did at least a million bucks worth of damage, plus Tony's extremely expensive time to repair that. This is why shadow governments are so dangerous: without accountability for their actions, they tend to do whatever the hell they want, and it soon ends up in scenes like this.
>> Sadly, fan fiction is likely the only place where Nicky will face the consequences of his behavior. <<
Alas. But it's so gratifying, wherever it appears!
>> Thanks for another great chapter! <<
You're welcome.
Re: Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-11 11:51 pm (UTC)Re: Jarvis, you're better than most humans
Date: 2014-04-14 05:40 am (UTC)Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.
>> Of course, that was after Tony had killed his surrogate father, <<
After Pepper killed Obie, albeit at Tony's urging. But it's not like she would have let Obie live after that shit. I am quite confident that Pepper could kill someone with her shoes.
>> so it's probably for the best Fury didn't try the "I knew your father" line until the sequel. <<
Fury is lucky that Tony didn't break his arm.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-04-11 01:41 pm (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2014-04-14 05:52 am (UTC)Yay!
>> and its a horrible foreshadowing of some of Fury's behavior in chronologically later stories when he tries to jerk the Avengers around and later allows Bucky to be mistreated. <<
Too true.
Though after watching Winter Soldier, I'm suspicious how much of the latter was accident, and how much was deliberate.
>> I can't blame Fury that much since he didn't know Jarvis was self aware, <<
Fury is not explicitly to blame for violating JARVIS if he didn't know he was dealing with a person (which is probable, but not necessarily guaranteed). However, he is to blame for all the offenses against Tony -- and I tend to side with Phil in being creeped out by the fact that Fury wouldn't have done anything differently if he did know about JARVIS, because Fury treats human beings the same damn way. Do you think he'd hesitate to rape a human if that got him something he wanted? I think he'd go right ahead, and at this late stage of decay, probably not lose any sleep over it.
>> and when you are a bull dozer, its hard to try to pick locks. <<
True, which is why I described this approach for him. He could have gotten someone else to venture a more subtle approach; he just didn't care enough to do that. I think he wanted to make a show of force.
Fucking with Tony's house and tech, especially right then? Incredibly stupid. Fucking with his son (which Fury presumably didn't know, but Tony will count)? Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye. Tony just waited until he could really make it hurt. Ruining Captain America's good opinion of SHIELD? Bam. Weapon you only have to fire once.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-04-11 01:51 pm (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-04-14 05:43 am (UTC)thinking
Date: 2014-04-11 10:08 pm (UTC)Also, holding on to Howard's personal effects for 30+ years ( which didn't appear to have an classified data so there is no justification that Tony could accept), forcing medical treatment without consent (the shot in his neck), and telling Tony he's not good enough... Seriously, Fury should have been planning for doomsday after all those mistakes.
Fury is riding for a fall whether he realizes it or not, because if it comes down to the brass tack, I'm pretty sure Phil will choose the team over SHEILD
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-11 11:24 pm (UTC)Was it a result of clearing out Howard's lab to remove any mention of SHIELD or SHIELD projects? Tony had a right to every scrap of the things which didn't qualify, REGARDLESS of Tony's age at the time.
Was the element-creation mcguffin - the CRATES of manufactured parts- a SHIELD project? If not, that's industrial espionage AGAIN, and on an enormous scale. AGAIN.
Howard's personal journal. NO. NO. NO. That was NOT Nick Fury's call. EVEN IF all Tony had done when handed the thing was to BURN IT, Nick Fury had NO RIGHT to withhold the journal.
With any ONE aspect of this kind of abuse, I really don't believe that Nick Fury actually considered Howard Stark a friend. With the cumulative problems, I wonder if Fury actually understands the definition of the word "friend". Everyone in his world seems to fall into "useful" or "irrelevant" categories pretty quickly!
I was left with the impression that SOMEONE in SHIELD, probably under Nick Fury's orders, was trying to discover what Howard's last project actually WAS, what it was meant to do, how far he'd developed the idea, et cetera. So, when they couldn't figure it out, they DIDN'T GIVE BACK the relevant items because it let other people KNOW that they'd been snooping.
That's the kind of shadow-government totalitarian BULL that sparks a revolution. Seriously. Mistreat any ONE person that badly, and the rumors become hints become news become international outcry become a revolution.
History has already shown that it can happen.
Sadly, I don't think anyone with Nick Fury's mindset would even understand the levels of risk he took, or the levels of violation he committed.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-05-05 12:50 am (UTC)Agreed.
>> Was it a result of clearing out Howard's lab to remove any mention of SHIELD or SHIELD projects? Tony had a right to every scrap of the things which didn't qualify, REGARDLESS of Tony's age at the time. <<
Tony had a right to everything that was Howard's property unless Howard left that to someone else. It's not impossible that Howard did actually will that stuff to Fury or SHIELD, but that's not the impression I got. I think they just held it because possession is 9/10 of the law.
>> Was the element-creation mcguffin - the CRATES of manufactured parts- a SHIELD project? <<
Probably not.
>> If not, that's industrial espionage AGAIN, and on an enormous scale. AGAIN. <<
Well, they're spies. They're not likely to distinguish between political or corporate, but between useful and useless. Espionage is their profession. It's what they are, it's what they do, and that is precisely why Tony does not trust them.
>> Howard's personal journal. NO. NO. NO. That was NOT Nick Fury's call. EVEN IF all Tony had done when handed the thing was to BURN IT, Nick Fury had NO RIGHT to withhold the journal. <<
Agreed, unless Howard left it to Fury instead of to Tony. I don't remember exactly what Fury said when the delivered the stuff.
>> With any ONE aspect of this kind of abuse, I really don't believe that Nick Fury actually considered Howard Stark a friend. With the cumulative problems, I wonder if Fury actually understands the definition of the word "friend". Everyone in his world seems to fall into "useful" or "irrelevant" categories pretty quickly! <<
I'm more inclined to believe that Fury's concept of "friend" has devolved considerably over time. After all, look at some of what he's done to Phil. A healthy person does not respond to a friend's death by destroying said friend's treasured possession.
>> I was left with the impression that SOMEONE in SHIELD, probably under Nick Fury's orders, was trying to discover what Howard's last project actually WAS, what it was meant to do, how far he'd developed the idea, et cetera. So, when they couldn't figure it out, they DIDN'T GIVE BACK the relevant items because it let other people KNOW that they'd been snooping. <<
That's probable, although it wouldn't necessarily give away the snooping. But if they didn't have the materials anymore, it would be hard for them to continue the research. How much do you want to bet that played into the Phase II weapons? Howard built weapons; his ideas probably went into those.
>> That's the kind of shadow-government totalitarian BULL that sparks a revolution. Seriously. Mistreat any ONE person that badly, and the rumors become hints become news become international outcry become a revolution. <<
Agreed. That's why, in this series, SHIELD has a damn hard time getting anything out of scientists except the occasional middle finger. Just because Jane Foster couldn't stop them from taking her stuff in the first place, doesn't mean she can't do serious damage to their professional contacts after the fact. Sure, they could kill her to shut her up, but that would piss off Thor and Eric Selvig both, and it wouldn't undo the damage.
>> History has already shown that it can happen. <<
And yet that never stops tyrants, overt or covert, from thinking THEY will be invulnerable despite the historic record.
>> Sadly, I don't think anyone with Nick Fury's mindset would even understand the levels of risk he took, or the levels of violation he committed. <<
Exactly.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-11 11:59 pm (UTC)Jessica
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-12 01:56 am (UTC)Yes, that means they were experimenting on him. Yes, that means forced EXPERIMENTAL treatment without consent.
Worse, they can't really PREDICT any possible side effects. There just isn't any data to work from.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 03:19 pm (UTC)Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 04:38 pm (UTC)Don't forget that Natasha was a child raised by the Red Room, which used all kinds of drugs on the children without their knowledge or consent.
There's an entire subplot for "why Phil's not dead" in Agents of Shield that touches on the same kinds of violation.
Really, the only exceptions I can think of are Pepper, not part of the team, Thor, and Clint-- but he's on that side of the equation because movie MCU does not show him with the hearing aids. Nick Fury arranging to have cochlear implants put IN the next time Clint is also under general anesthetic is something I can really, really picture him doing to "improve reliability in the field" or other bull.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 05:29 pm (UTC)And Thor was part of Odin's sociology hack. Paging Doctor Skinner.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 07:56 pm (UTC)They aren't that good, but useful for inspiration in some regards.
>> And Thor was part of Odin's sociology hack. Paging Doctor Skinner. <<
0_o
Odin's idea of sociology is the kind of thing that ends with a jar full of bent horseshoe nails under the master's bedroom floorboards.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-15 02:15 am (UTC)Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-16 03:57 am (UTC)That matches what I remember. I suspect that Ross was half "let's see what this shit really does" and half "that little pansy is not good enough for my daughter, this ought to get him out of the way for good." Oh, the fail.
>> Thanks for getting the 'almost remember' mental itch going; I'll check into it with both versions. <<
Glad I could help.
>> Don't forget that Natasha was a child raised by the Red Room, which used all kinds of drugs on the children without their knowledge or consent. <<
Yeah, and when Tony eventually loses his shit over what she and Fury did to him, that's going to knock her on her ass.
>> There's an entire subplot for "why Phil's not dead" in Agents of Shield that touches on the same kinds of violation. <<
I've heard about that, although I haven't seen the show.
>> Really, the only exceptions I can think of are Pepper, not part of the team, Thor, and <<
Agreed.
>> Clint-- but he's on that side of the equation because movie MCU does not show him with the hearing aids. <<
I tend to think of Clint in this series as having weak ears, but still able to hear. It doesn't take a lot to put them out of commission for a while, though.
>> Nick Fury arranging to have cochlear implants put IN the next time Clint is also under general anesthetic is something I can really, really picture him doing to "improve reliability in the field" or other bull. <<
Totally in character for Fury. And SHIELD would not even see Clint's tail disappearing into the bush. He would just be gone into some safehouse that nobody knew where it was, leaving Fury to explain to the Avengers why they were permanently minus one archer.
I'm not sure who'd manage to punch Fury in the face first.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-16 04:18 am (UTC)Me.
Well, in my fantasy-deluded mental landscape. But I would in no way be able to resist the urge!
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-17 08:33 am (UTC)With my current body, I'd ask Steve to champion, because he hits harder than I could.
But given a better mount, hell yeah I'd bust Fury in the face. And then in the xyphoid process for good measure.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-17 05:09 pm (UTC)Tsk.
If I managed to land a hit on Nicky, ME, less than five-foot-five in heels, Cerebral Palsy, so nearsighted that MOLES send me pity cards, and more... Yeah, that'd do some serious damage to Nicky's over-inflated EGO.
Back in my early twenties, I learned how to throw ONE punch. I figured that's all I'll ever have time to get in, so I'd best make it flippin' COUNT.
Sadly, since it would probably take Steve HOLDING Fury still for me to land said punch,I just can't REALLY imagine doing so. Daydreaming means catching Nicky by surprise and landing the hit before he's finished taking a breath, which is about as likely as...
Nick apologizing to Tony for holding on to Howard's stuff. Sincerely.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-17 10:31 pm (UTC)Well, yeah. That one would work even at my current size -- which is, ironically, identical to pre-Serum Steve. The difference is that I'm far more ruthless than he ever was. I got picked on, but it was limited by the fact that I was nobody's easy meat.
As Miles Vorkosigan puts it, "If you can't be seven feet tall, be seven feet smart."
>> If I managed to land a hit on Nicky, ME, less than five-foot-five in heels, Cerebral Palsy, so nearsighted that MOLES send me pity cards, and more... Yeah, that'd do some serious damage to Nicky's over-inflated EGO. <<
Yeah, he'd never live that down.
>> Back in my early twenties, I learned how to throw ONE punch. I figured that's all I'll ever have time to get in, so I'd best make it flippin' COUNT. <<
Much my strategy as well. You only need one, if you can put your opponent on the ground.
>> Sadly, since it would probably take Steve HOLDING Fury still for me to land said punch,I just can't REALLY imagine doing so. Daydreaming means catching Nicky by surprise and landing the hit before he's finished taking a breath, which is about as likely as... <<
Well, Steve might not go that far, but Tony sure would -- and he's a blacksmith, so Fury's not getting out of that.
>> Nick apologizing to Tony for holding on to Howard's stuff. Sincerely. <<
Heh. Too true.
Of course, both of us have an ulterior option: "JARVIS, Director Fury is being mean. Please help us get him back."
Next thing you know, Fury is falling asleep on his feet and nursing the headache from hell, because his coffee "somehow" got switched to decaf ...
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-20 01:35 am (UTC)why stop there?
Date: 2016-11-08 12:51 am (UTC)And maybe add a bit of polonium, for "flavor"?
Re: why stop there?
Date: 2016-11-08 02:44 am (UTC)I have, however, taken note of various retributions by JARVIS and other folks outraged by his actions. Fury has become one of my favorite squeaky toys, along with Officer RAT. *stomp* *eeeEEEEEeee* :D
Re: why stop there?
Date: 2016-11-08 03:48 am (UTC)Fair point.
>> nobody wins a blurting contest with an irate bard <<
*cackle* ... now *that* stirs up some interesting memories/anecdotes!
Good point about "the devil we know". Doggone it. Sometimes my brain just wants a simple, straightforward solution. Why do things have to be so complicated? Oh yeah, 'cause this is real life. Right.
Hmmm... I wonder if I have enough MCU / movie canon to filk the Echo's Children song "Bested", in a way that fits Director Fury.
*wanders off to ponder lyrics*
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-05-05 04:04 am (UTC)Disturbingly common.
>> Steve was as informed as perhaps the time period allowed (apple, he eats the apple), <<
I got the impression that Dr. Erskine did his level best to inform Steve as much as possible, and Steve just kept saying, "You can do anything you want to me." Steve probably didn't realize that it was a rather creepy thing to do to the good doctor.
>> but Bruce was stressed and violated human trials on his own self. <<
That's one version, another being that General Ross tampered with the process. In the earlier movie, David Banner certainly used himself as a test subject in inadvisable ways.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-05-05 12:58 am (UTC)That's what I figured.
>> Yes, that means they were experimenting on him. Yes, that means forced EXPERIMENTAL treatment without consent. <<
You can imagine how well that's going to go over with Tony's friends if they ever find out. Especially Bruce-and-Hulk.
>> Worse, they can't really PREDICT any possible side effects. There just isn't any data to work from. <<
If they ran animal tests first, they might detect side effects that way. But it's still a huge risk, more likely to go wrong than right, even with superhero physics in play; frex, look at the scattershot effect of the super-soldier serum.
The first thing I thought of was the lithium, which is used in some psychoactive medications but also in batteries. Not really what I'd call a safe thing for someone who is already neurovariant and a cyborg.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-05-05 12:55 am (UTC)Always wrong. Also they cannot possibly have a complete medical history for Tony, because only two people know that: him and JARVIS. This is pretty obvious from his vehement evasion of doctors and his general paranoia about information getting loose. It's not really plausible that they could have gotten direct information about Tony's condition, but especially with some of Howard's notes in hand, they knew enough about Tony's work to make lucky guesses.
>> but also withholding treatment until it would get him an advantage. I mean, it's highly unlikely SHIELD had just developed a treatment for palladium poisoning the day before Natasha injected Tony. And if they did, then they were experimenting on him, which is also very wrong. <<
My guess is that they developed it, hopefully did some very brief animal testing, and then pounced on Tony. There would not have been time for the kind of rigorous testing that human trials actually require, but SHIELD doesn't care about that. It should still have been Tony's decision. It's very telling that SHIELD views humans as property, as experimental subjects. Not really the kind of folks you want to have in power.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-12 01:13 am (UTC)Not to mention Pepper and Rhodey, already het up over the recent stress and probably still spoiling for a fight. Pepper against Fury? Death of a thousand paper cuts. Ask Stane what happens to people who threaten Tony in front of Pepper. Oh wait, Nick, you can't because she roasted him.
>> Popping up like a bad penny in a scene that I found creepily similar to Stane's appearance prior to the last round of attempted murder was not a good way to make a positive impression. <<
Yeah, that was creeptastic. Thanks everso for giving Tony's trust issues another run around the mulberry bush. Asshole.
>> Also, holding on to Howard's personal effects for 30+ years ( which didn't appear to have an classified data so there is no justification that Tony could accept), forcing medical treatment without consent (the shot in his neck), <<
Agreed. Those two were material harm on many counts.
>> and telling Tony he's not good enough... <<
This was just adding insult to injury, aiming at a known weak spot; but Tony has been hearing that from people whose opinions he actually cared about since he knew what words were. Old news. But not to be forgotten.
>> Seriously, Fury should have been planning for doomsday after all those mistakes. <<
Yeah, I figured that Fury's behavior in the Iron Man movies played into Tony's in The Avengers. Tony took such pleasure in shoving his arm up SHIELD's secrets, and it was so easy for him. Well, much of SHIELD is Starktech, so that's an obvious result.
>> Fury is riding for a fall whether he realizes it or not, because if it comes down to the brass tack, I'm pretty sure Phil will choose the team over SHEILD.<<
Oh yes. Clint and Natasha too. Particularly since the team has been, or will be, cleaning up after Fury's various fuckups with each other for quite some time.
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-04-14 03:21 pm (UTC)"I'd hate to see how many chess sets you go through."
(no subject)
Date: 2014-04-14 02:16 pm (UTC)I'm thinking about the "did he even know JARVIS is a person?" in the context of The Winter Soldier - where he's obviously got some sort of moderately advanced AI accessible to him, but what little you see of him relating to it suggests (to me anyway) that he views AIs pretty much the same way as humans (which is to say, he's probably kind of a suspicious jerk around them).
Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-16 06:36 am (UTC)Fairly close. If I'd been writing him from scratch, I would've made very different decisions. Much of what he does up through The Avengers is batshit crazy. So I had to come up with ways of justifying that well enough to avoid mangling my plot. In The Winter Soldier his actions are more logical and he's not causing massive damage with friendly fire.
>> I'm thinking about the "did he even know JARVIS is a person?" in the context of The Winter Soldier - where he's obviously got some sort of moderately advanced AI accessible to him, but what little you see of him relating to it suggests (to me anyway) that he views AIs pretty much the same way as humans (which is to say, he's probably kind of a suspicious jerk around them). <<
Fury is the kind of person who inspires Skynet to pull the trigger. (I can't help thinking of I, Robot in which the black hero spent most of the movie treating the robots like n*gg*rs. That movie's meta has meta, there is so much of it.) Most of the people who wind up working with artificial intelligence are the kind who ought not to be trusted with a goldfish, let alone a human infant or a baby AI. Abused children often grow up to be violent. So yes, I think Fury's behavior around AI would be indifferent to abusive.
Which is, as I observed earlier, the same as he treats human beings.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-17 12:06 am (UTC)Maybe AI labs is where we could start testing for "are you ready to parent?"
Hollywood needs to let go. "Needing" someone to treat like N**** is a sign.
I think the writing of strategy is tighter, so he's not batshit and yet the contrast between his acceptable and Steve's are clear. Nice bit of triangulation between good and evil.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-17 07:57 am (UTC)Agreed.
It is much like writers being unable to distinguish between being a strong woman, and being a bitch. In particular, strong black men have a similar problem; but Sam Wilson nailed the hell out of that target, which left Fury looking like even more of a dick.
Okay, somebody needs to write fic where Sam takes one look at Nick and decides to FIX him. And Nick does not get a saving throw on that because of all the times he's futtered everyone else's boundaries.
>> Maybe AI labs is where we could start testing for "are you ready to parent?" <<
That would be a great idea.
>> Hollywood needs to let go. "Needing" someone to treat like N**** is a sign. <<
True. But I felt that in I, Robot it was an awesome illustration of social progression, the way different groups get stuffed on the bottom of the heap. The movie did a great job of showing why it's a fucking stupid thing to do. Sadly it is a prevailing, though not quite universal, tendency of human societies to want dregs.
>> I think the writing of strategy is tighter, so he's not batshit and yet the contrast between his acceptable and Steve's are clear. Nice bit of triangulation between good and evil. <<
Agreed. The moral commentary was much more sophisticated here, especially with Sam cleaving to Steve. Which makes me think I would also really enjoy watching Sam help fix Bucky, because that job is almost exclusively left to Steve and Natasha.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-17 03:45 pm (UTC)Ah, so an intentional mirror, rather like how the Earthers in Alien Nation were running the gamut. Here in Captain America 2 Fury is getting the cup of ashes.
One man makes a difference usually by others standing up to follow.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-05-06 01:43 am (UTC)That's the impression I got. Also Sam is a lot healthier -- he learned how to put himself back together. Fury is still insisting that he's FINE DAMMIT.
Riiiiiight. That's the face Tony usually makes just before he falls over.
>> There are some stories where Cheese (Coulson) is the exception to Nick's I go it alone, not matter the size of my organization tail. <<
Yeah, those can be good.
>> Ah, so an intentional mirror, rather like how the Earthers in Alien Nation were running the gamut. Here in Captain America 2 Fury is getting the cup of ashes. <<
Yes, exactly.
>> One man makes a difference usually by others standing up to follow. <<
Agreed. Steve is good at that, but so is Sam.
*grin* "I do what he does, just slower."
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-17 04:54 pm (UTC)Is it because Nick Fury is black, though? I'm not seeing it that way. Nick Fury is a totally different man than Sam Wilson; Sam focused on HELPING OTHERS after dealing with the awful crap he went through as a soldier. Nick Fury, also a soldier, also went through awful crap. His solution was vastly different: become the kind of bully NO ONE wanted to take on, just to "guarantee" it didn't happen to him again. Except, of course, that makes him the perpetrator of awful crap for others.
I'm not denying that there's still racism in the way entertainment portrays blacks.
I'm denying the idea that it's the ONLY lens through which to view Fury's craptastic decisions.
>>The moral commentary was much more sophisticated here, especially with Sam cleaving to Steve. Which makes me think I would also really enjoy watching Sam help fix Bucky, because that job is almost exclusively left to Steve and Natasha.<<
Who says the job is left to Steve and Natasha? Not talking about the movie-- spoiler city, right now-- but why is there ANY implication that Bucky could or would turn to Steve after the things he did as the Winter Soldier? Bucky "let them both down". My prediction is that the next official canon will have Bucky on his own, trying to figure out his life and what to do next, while he lands in a storm of epic-superhero-proportions and just has to become a "hero" because no one else is doing anything but running scared. I just hope they tackle the plot more effectively than the Wolverine movie with the motorbike, y'know? Marvel really can't seem to develop a CHARACTER well enough to pull off the solo-identity-crisis theme AT ALL, let alone well!
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 02:24 am (UTC)But yes, that would suit MCU Bucky.
Nick is a spy, and he's imbibed the kool-aid. He'd have sided with the Registration side of Civil War, not getting why Steve knows it is wrong. "I'm not doing this for myself. I'm known, you already have plans in place should you decide to take me down. But there are citizens that stand no chance, that are no threat, and you want to inventory them. I just came from another war started just the same way and not here, not while I've breath and blood."
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 07:06 am (UTC)That's part of it. However, I was also referring to the Bucky fanfic written prior to The Winter Soldier movie. He is almost always paired with Steve and/or Natasha if someone is helping him break free or recover his memories. Post-movie, Sam Wilson becomes not just a plausible addition, but a skilled one. That's awesome.
>> Nick is a spy, and he's imbibed the kool-aid. He'd have sided with the Registration side of Civil War, not getting why Steve knows it is wrong. <<
The Civil War creeps me the fuck out. It's something I've hinted at, very obliquely, in this series, but it would play out totally different than in canon because it would never get that far. A better-meshed team, and especially Steve and Tony talking to each other, would kill it early.
>> "I'm not doing this for myself. I'm known, you already have plans in place should you decide to take me down. But there are citizens that stand no chance, that are no threat, and you want to inventory them. I just came from another war started just the same way and not here, not while I've breath and blood." <<
Exactly.
One thing I love about Magneto is that he's right. Somebody's always going to pick a fight over differences, and in certain cases it's very predictable and very bloody. His methods are deplorable, but his willingness to fight for species survival is perfectly justified.
His ubermensch attitude I chalk up to Shaw chopping him to dogmeat. Nobody's walking away from that fight intact, even if they walk away breathing. Erik knew better than to believe one group of people was inherently better than others, until he got into a mindfight that hosed him with someone else's insanity. Tch. Heartbreaking casualty, that one.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 08:24 am (UTC)Try this on for nightmare fuel: Erik grew up part of a very persecuted minority, at a time when not just Germany but most of the world seemed eager to annihilate anyone they considered 'inferior'. Shaw does a HUGE amount of damage to Erik's sanity, in ways that Erik as a kid can't really SEE, let alone fight against. He becomes part of ANOTHER fight for survival, for recognition, eventual (hoped for) equality, and all that insanity twists in his head into one terrifying question: what if we CANNOT win this fight, either?
Erik can't deal with that, not in a boat, not in a train, he would not like that here or there... The only way he can even parse the FEAR of the question is to turn it around and MAKE himself believe that the physical mutations in human DNA will create changes in their thinking, enough to make them legitimately, biologically, "better than" H. sapiens sapiens.
Otherwise, everything he ever suffered under the banner of "racial identity" was pointless.
If Magneto lets go of his ubermensch belief, well, it's exactly like Loki letting go of the staff while hanging over the Bifrost.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 09:01 am (UTC)That alone was enough PDSD to create a supervillain out of almost any mutant. The really disturbing thing? Hitler genuinely was hunting for 'unusual' people and magical artifacts.
>> Shaw does a HUGE amount of damage to Erik's sanity, in ways that Erik as a kid can't really SEE, let alone fight against. <<
Yes, I like that, because you can't fix what you can't see.
How Charles managed to touch that and not inhale enough ocean to drown them both is beyond me. I can only surmise that his own fucked-up childhood left his talent with some rather bizarre safety catches.
>> He becomes part of ANOTHER fight for survival, for recognition, eventual (hoped for) equality, and all that insanity twists in his head into one terrifying question: what if we CANNOT win this fight, either? <<
Yyyyyeah. That's never going to end well.
>> Erik can't deal with that, not in a boat, not in a train, he would not like that here or there... <<
*chuckle* I love your phrasing.
>> The only way he can even parse the FEAR of the question is to turn it around and MAKE himself believe that the physical mutations in human DNA will create changes in their thinking, enough to make them legitimately, biologically, "better than" H. sapiens sapiens. <<
I can see that.
>> Otherwise, everything he ever suffered under the banner of "racial identity" was pointless.
If Magneto lets go of his ubermensch belief, well, it's exactly like Loki letting go of the staff while hanging over the Bifrost. <<
I think what will eventually knock him off that hold is this: it's not working. Erik and Charles parted company over ideology. They each believed that their way was the right and only way. But. They couldn't quite get over each other. So there was this ... tiiiiiny ... little Plan B in each man's mind, that if his way didn't work, the other would. It's why, aside from a severely impacted love, they haven't killed each other. They really believed that one or the other would work.
It hasn't. Here we are decades later, and the same shit is going on, and the Mutant Registration idea starts getting around. Sooner or later the two of them are going to have a knock-down, drag-out fight over that. And it's going to soak in that neither of their efforts have solved the problem, here they are as old men and it's all happening again.
Kernel error.
Kernel panic.
And when guys that power have a kernel problem, it is everybody's problem.
Fortunately there is a solution to this, which is that people at opposite ends of a political spectrum need to work together, because two tools are better than one. That's what got lost when Shaw chopped them both to bits. He didn't have to kill them, just cut them badly enough that they couldn't tolerate each other anymore. Doesn't take much Nazi to do that.
Imagine a far more functional Avengers team, and there is at least somebody to sweep up the mess.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 02:09 pm (UTC)My headcanon for telepaths is that they are both biologically -as soon as the stem cells begin organizing a nervous system- and psychologically resolute, a self-contained unit. It's the only way that a telepathic infant wouldn't be driven to madness by Mommy and Daddy's /random stray thoughts/. To a telpath, everyone else's thoughts have a distinct 'flavor'. Beyond being able to screen out background noise quickly, it also allows the telepath to /immediately/ recognize, isolate and insulate against external thoughts deliberately intruding into the telepath's own. ("Well, that's worth a look..." from Loki through Doctor Selvig, for example.)
Two telepaths would actively have to establish trust before they could do anything more complex than wail like a car alarm in the other's vicinity.
For the differences between a telepath and an empath, see Firefly/Serenity and the Frankenstein process that River went through. Similar processes could have been used to create a very different Black Widow, honed by psychological manipulations which are illegal under the Geneva Convention. Which, of course, both identifies and prevents torture on a global scale.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 10:25 pm (UTC)If they're lucky, yes, that's one option.
>> It's the only way that a telepathic infant wouldn't be driven to madness by Mommy and Daddy's /random stray thoughts/. To a telpath, everyone else's thoughts have a distinct 'flavor'. <<
Some people don't come into the talent until later, and it more often arrives slowly than all at once. There's time to adapt. Some have a harder time than others. Canon seems to vary for Charles.
>> Beyond being able to screen out background noise quickly, it also allows the telepath to /immediately/ recognize, isolate and insulate against external thoughts deliberately intruding into the telepath's own. <<
That much seems pretty consistent, the awareness of self and other, although it's also established that strong thoughts or feelings can be overwhelming.
>> ("Well, that's worth a look..." from Loki through Doctor Selvig, for example.) <<
True. Loki is rather intrigued by his stargazer, and Eric is ... well, he's the kind of guy who does shit he really shouldn't For Science.
Two telepaths would actively have to establish trust before they could do anything more complex than wail like a car alarm in the other's vicinity.
>> For the differences between a telepath and an empath, see Firefly/Serenity and the Frankenstein process that River went through. <<
True, but canon indicates that Charles has both telepathy and empathy -- along with a host of related abilities -- although the mental aspect seems stronger than the emotional one. He's a fucking idiot about feelings for decades. Well, that's child abuse in action.
>> Similar processes could have been used to create a very different Black Widow, honed by psychological manipulations which are illegal under the Geneva Convention. Which, of course, both identifies and prevents torture on a global scale. <<
0_o That would be an interesting version of Black Widow. Puts me in mind of Emma Frost, a bit.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 05:05 pm (UTC)The whole Nightmares of Futures Past isn't just a global war to prevent or cause a genocide. It's not about two ideologies battling for supremacy in the minds of the public. It's not even the Us versus Them plot that plays on every television in the world every day of the year-- what percentage of it's fiction or non-fiction is up to the reader's level of pessimism.
It's about the regrets one discovers decades after it's too damn late to do anything about it.
And what the one person CHOOSES to do about it.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-19 10:17 pm (UTC)True, of course.
>> It's about the regrets one discovers decades after it's too damn late to do anything about it.
And what the one person CHOOSES to do about it. <<
Two people, really. I'm already having All The Feels about Magneto/Professor X just from the trailers. I am so looking forward to the new movie.
I've seen at least one rendition of "Days of Future Past" in X-Men cartoons though. That alone was pretty intense.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-05-06 02:11 am (UTC)Fury's ethnicity made certain moves and interpretations possible, whereas a white character would probably have been targeted in a different way and had a different reaction to the scenario. I liked how Cap 2 addressed these issues.
>> Nick Fury is a totally different man than Sam Wilson; Sam focused on HELPING OTHERS after dealing with the awful crap he went through as a soldier. <<
Agreed. And that's a key difference between heroes ("Nobody should ever have to go through this.") and villains ("I'll show you fuckers, nobody's gonna mess with ME again and I'm gonna get MY turn on the top!").
>> Nick Fury, also a soldier, also went through awful crap. His solution was vastly different: become the kind of bully NO ONE wanted to take on, just to "guarantee" it didn't happen to him again. Except, of course, that makes him the perpetrator of awful crap for others. <<
Exactly.
>> I'm not denying that there's still racism in the way entertainment portrays blacks.
I'm denying the idea that it's the ONLY lens through which to view Fury's craptastic decisions. <<
It's not the only way. I just think it's relevant.
>> Who says the job is left to Steve and Natasha? <<
Prior to Cap 2, almost all the Bucky-rescue stories featured Steve or Nat or both in the savior role. The new movie gives us a new rescuer. I like that. I like Sam. He's compassionate without being weak.
>> Not talking about the movie-- spoiler city, right now-- but why is there ANY implication that Bucky could or would turn to Steve after the things he did as the Winter Soldier? <<
1) Bucky doesn't have anywhere else to go.
2) He's a friggin' homing pigeon and so is Steve. They're always going to be drawn together.
3) Bucky knows that Steve sees the best in everyone and tries to save everyone.
4) They love each other.
5) Hometime advantage.
There are a million reasons.
>> Bucky "let them both down". My prediction is that the next official canon will have Bucky on his own, trying to figure out his life and what to do next, while he lands in a storm of epic-superhero-proportions and just has to become a "hero" because no one else is doing anything but running scared. <<
That's entirely possible.
>> I just hope they tackle the plot more effectively than the Wolverine movie with the motorbike, y'know? Marvel really can't seem to develop a CHARACTER well enough to pull off the solo-identity-crisis theme AT ALL, let alone well! <<
Yeah.
appalled
Date: 2016-11-08 12:46 am (UTC)Another poster wrote:
>> Fury is riding for a fall whether he realizes it or not, because if it comes down to the brass tack, I'm pretty sure Phil will choose the team over SHEILD <<
Clearly Fury has done considerable harm. This may be a naive question (I haven't watched all the movies), but what I'm wondering is:
- lately (say, in the past 3-5 years), has he done more harm than good?
- in that time period, has he done any good at all?
Given only what's been described here, I'd have no trouble nominating him for a "Go home, Charlie" *right now*.
Re: appalled
Date: 2016-11-08 02:21 am (UTC)- lately (say, in the past 3-5 years), has he done more harm than good? <<
Not by my count.
>> - in that time period, has he done any good at all?<<
Maybe some, but it's all questionable, could have been better, someone else did most of the work, etc. Like he helped back the search for Captain America but then promptly dropped Steve on his head. He tried to stop the WSC from nuking New York but they did it anyway and Tony had to divert the missile.
>>Given only what's been described here, I'd have no trouble nominating him for a "Go home, Charlie" *right now*.<<
Consider that we'd need someone else to take over his position, and determine whether they'd do more good and less harm. This is likely, but making that shift is not easy even so. Merely removing him would not necessarily improve matters. 0_o