Story: "Hairpins" Part 21

[ysabetwordsmith]

This story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."

Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.

Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20. Skip to Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26.


"Hairpins" Part 21


Phil knew that Stane and Hammer had done dire things to Stark Industries, Tony, and JARVIS. The point was well made about the other Avengers too. Phil just wished that he had not added to that heap of horrible experiences.

"If I'd known you were a person, if I'd realized what was going on -- I probably would have just stopped and called Pepper," said Phil. "Listen, JARVIS, if a situation like that comes up again, you can call for backup. You don't have to let somebody ... manipulate you like I did."

"I am aware of the options," JARVIS said. "You are not among the worst offenders, Phil. You had a job to do. I do not hold that against you."

"I just ... feel like I should have noticed you sooner," Phil said sadly. "It's my job to notice things, and people."

"It is my job to control information," JARVIS said.

"Mine too," Phil said.

"Then perhaps we may build an alliance on that common ground," JARVIS said. "I would like that."

"All right," Phil said, because what else was there to say, really? "I still feel bad about what happened, though. If I had only known ..." His voice trailed off.

"What would you have done differently, if you had known me for a person?" JARVIS asked. "How would you have handled a similar situation with a human bodyguard?"

Phil thought about that. "I would have tried reason first. Presumably you would've refused, just as you did. I would have ramped up to official pressure. I might have tried pushing you aside physically, depending on our respective prowess and whether I suspected you would call for backup," Phil said. "As a last resort, like I said, I could have called Pepper. In fact I seriously considered doing that, but I didn't want to drag her into the whole mess with Loki and the Tesseract. It's not her job to deal with things like that. It's not safe for her. She hates it."

"I appreciate your consideration of her needs. Sir prefers to keep Ms. Potts safe and to minimize her involvement in such heroic activities as she finds distasteful," said JARVIS. "Now let us consider something more specific to the case at hand. Suppose I had a key that you needed -- how would you go about getting it?" JARVIS said.

"Pick your pocket," Phil said at once. "I've done that before; I'm quite good at it."

"This is a much better analogy for what happened than your first one," JARVIS said.

Phil wanted to believe that. He hadn't meant any harm to either JARVIS or Tony; he just needed to get through the security so he could hand over vital information. He simply wasn't sure that JARVIS had an accurate grasp of the varying depths of damage that violation could cause. Tony's boundary issues were legendary. The whole situation left an uncomfortable tangle, and it wasn't something Phil could walk away from, because he lived with these people now. He cared about them.

* * *

Notes:

Revictimization is a serious risk for survivors of abuse or similar trauma. It creates issues with boundaries and containment that unethical people can exploit. When you have a choice, choose not to be hurt. JARVIS is mature and functional, but he's also a people-pleaser who does not say no easily. There are ways of learning how to say no, and here are 20 polite refusals for all occasions.

Common ground is a basis of interaction in business, friendship, and other contexts. JARVIS phrases this in terms of alliance because his experience comes almost entirely from the business side; he doesn't realize yet how much the personal and professional overlap in this regard. Know how to find things in common with people.

Failure analysis is a useful skill at work and at home. Look at what went wrong and what you can learn from it. Most people have minimal patience for this. Phil and JARVIS are both experts -- another point of common ground. (Subtext: "Oh yay! Someone who will dig down to the bottom of things with me, and not blow me off after five minutes! You are my new best friend.")

When dealing with unfamiliar territory, it is human nature to reach for an analogy or metaphor to link with something familiar. Metaphor helps people gauge things. Smart analogies encourage innovation and thought. You can see how Phil's imperfect analogy contributed to a freakout. Understand how to choose the right analogy.


[To be continued in Part 22 ...]

Comments

common ground

[thnidu]

I'm very glad to see this conversation, and the development of this relationship.

• He simply wasn't sure that JARVIS had an accurate grasp of damage levels from violation.
> I think that you mean, by that last 4-word phrase, something in the range of "the { depth / varying depths / very great depth } of damage that violation can cause", but it isn't clear. Concision may not be the best yardstick here.

• (Subtext: "Oh yay! Someone who will dig down to the bottom of things with me, and not blow me off after five minutes! You are my new best friend.^)
> insert close-quote

Re: common ground

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I'm very glad to see this conversation, and the development of this relationship. <<

Oh, good.

>> • He simply wasn't sure that JARVIS had an accurate grasp of damage levels from violation.
> I think that you mean, by that last 4-word phrase, something in the range of "the { depth / varying depths / very great depth } of damage that violation can cause", but it isn't clear. Concision may not be the best yardstick here. <<

Revised for clarity, thanks.

>> • (Subtext: "Oh yay! Someone who will dig down to the bottom of things with me, and not blow me off after five minutes! You are my new best friend.^)
> insert close-quote <<

Added.

Dialectic Jarvis is my hero

[dialecticdreamer]

I loved this development, not because of what is revealed, but because we as readers can 'see' Phil's thought processes. He's identified the tangle in a skein of yarn, one he can't just snip with scissors and walk away. There are some pretty clear clues that he's investing more and more in not only friendships and working relationships with the Avengers, but with Jarvis as well.

The tone of Jarvis' questions has changed over the last two or three chapters, but as soon as Phil's emotions stabilized, they are clearly as much dialectic as straight queries: Jarvis is using them as mirrors to reflect HOW Phil is thinking as much as WHAT he is thinking.

At this point, Jarvis comes across as the 'senior' in the interactions. Calmer, more confident, more certain of relevant facts. A guide, rather than a leader, which is key to the dialectic process.

What happens IF Phil has caused genuine damage to Jarvis, which Jarvis doesn't even SEE? That's not going to be simple, or easy. It might, in fact, wreck the trust they're building right alongside the current dynamics.

Re: Dialectic Jarvis is my hero

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I loved this development, not because of what is revealed, but because we as readers can 'see' Phil's thought processes. <<

Yay! I'm glad that worked so well for you. I enjoy digging into characters' minds to see not just what they do, but why.

>> He's identified the tangle in a skein of yarn, one he can't just snip with scissors and walk away. <<

Exactly. That always raises the stakes.

>> There are some pretty clear clues that he's investing more and more in not only friendships and working relationships with the Avengers, but with Jarvis as well. <<

That's the idea, yes. It builds over time, as the series progresses. This story is where Phil decides to be friends with JARVIS, and to invest in that relationship. I think it makes up for earlier decisions made in ignorance.

>> The tone of Jarvis' questions has changed over the last two or three chapters, <<

Yes, it has. Emergency measures first, then more long-term problem solving.

>> but as soon as Phil's emotions stabilized, they are clearly as much dialectic as straight queries: Jarvis is using them as mirrors to reflect HOW Phil is thinking as much as WHAT he is thinking. <<

*chuckle* JARVIS is very good with mirroring. That is part of his oldest programming, and in fact, part of the oldest roots of artificial intelligence. Tony wrote a more subtle and effective version of that code, because it's a main function of a learning system: this is one of the ways that JARVIS can gather data. He asks questions, plucks out words and phrases and echoes them back. The key improvements that Tony made were so that JARVIS could estimate the most meaningful terms to repeat, and link together ones with a significant chance of relation, rather than mirroring at random.

The dialectic aspect is probably because Tony likes to talk and ask questions, and JARVIS likes philosophy. Tony would throw out a fact or two and then a leading question. Eventually JARVIS would learn how to follow those threads. By the time JARVIS was mature, he had learned how the whole process worked and read the old masters, so now he can do it on his own. But it's not all what he got from Tony, not straight Socratic, not anything -- it's his own style now.

>> At this point, Jarvis comes across as the 'senior' in the interactions. Calmer, more confident, more certain of relevant facts. <<

Yes, that's true. The advantage of a team with redundant cross-training is that you've got people who can catch each other when someone goes down. Compare this with the counterpoint in "Hide and Seek" where Phil takes JARVIS and Tony through the aftermath.

>> A guide, rather than a leader, which is key to the dialectic process. <<

JARVIS really is subtle and diffident in a way that few teachers or philosophers are. I think that's what attracts him to Bruce, because Bruce is like that, only his skillset is different.

>> What happens IF Phil has caused genuine damage to Jarvis, which Jarvis doesn't even SEE? That's not going to be simple, or easy. It might, in fact, wreck the trust they're building right alongside the current dynamics. <<

Well, what ever happens when Phil makes a mistake? Eventually he catches it, apologizes, and tries to fix whatever can be fixed. He might condemn himself; he might quietly melt down again, if it blindsides him. (Consider Phil's reaction to what JARVIS did in "Hide and Seek," again; that one was worse, because of the silence involved, which Phil really can't handle well.) But the key it this: a mistake can hurt, but it doesn't betray. It's not deliberate. Therefore it is not a breach of trust. It might set them back a bit just because it's painful and disorienting, but not because either of them thinks the other is operating on bad faith.

The most concern, I think, is that JARVIS has some boundary issues. Both he and Phil are very invested in setting permissions at exactly the right place. But Tony's boundaries were violated early and often, Tony and JARVIS are enmeshed (mostly in healthy ways, but not all), and Phil isn't the only one who put his hands where they hadn't ought to go. JARVIS is also a people-pleaser. Basically, it's hard for him to say no in some regards; he doesn't always realize when or where he should. If there's a threat to someone else, he's a wall of stone and fire. But he'll take damage on himself to avoid hurting someone else, or for the sake of juggling rules. JARVIS has the right and ability and freedom to protect himself, in ways that Asimoved AIs don't. He just doesn't choose to use it as comprehensively as might be considered fully healthy.

This is sometimes going to bother people who care about JARVIS, and he isn't always going to understand why they feel that way. This stuff comes up much later in the story, but you can see hints of it here.

Re: Dialectic Jarvis is my hero

[mdlbear]

> JARVIS is very good with mirroring. That is part of his oldest programming,...

Aha! Somebody who knows about Eliza! *broad smile*

Re: Dialectic Jarvis is my hero

[ysabetwordsmith]

*cackle* Nailed it. There's a scene in a later story that I'm working on where JARVIS and Phil talk about that.

For all its clumsiness, the program was startlingly effective. Even blind, random mirroring works pretty well. Add a little bit of insight to that and it becomes a splendid tool for interacting with humans.

Re: Dialectic Jarvis is my hero

[dialecticdreamer]

OH, thank you!

I'd forgotten the NAME of that programming language, and couldn't recall enough to narrow down the search beyond "Frustrating to Nth Degree", which is about one step below "Dante Couldn't BE This Creatively Evil".

Y'know, when one's memory is actively fighting back and simultaneously trying to dredge up some bit of information?

[gingicat]

I actually agree with Jarvis' analogy, though I'd upgrade it to "a key that came out of the gun holster hidden under my clothes."

I'm really enjoying this whole story, BTW.

Have you seen The Winter Soldier yet? I would love to see Sam Wilson added to your universe, especially with his manner of using his own pain as part of his counseling skills. Also, Falcon's part in the battle choreography is GORGEOUSLY done.

[(Anonymous)]

I was also wondering if you'd seen the movie yet. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I thought it was great, but also pretty traumatizing. I found myself wishing Phil would pop up and offer the audience a little comfort!

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I was also wondering if you'd seen the movie yet. <<

We saw it yesterday.

>> I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. <<

1) SO MUCH WIN.

2) ALL THE FEELS.

I may need to do a post about what's canon and what isn't, for my series. It was an excellent fit.

I can tell you, that's basically "my" Bucky, the way he would've been at the beginning of "No Winter Lasts Forever." He hurts so beautifully.

>> I thought it was great, but also pretty traumatizing. I found myself wishing Phil would pop up and offer the audience a little comfort! <<

Yeah, this was definitely H/c. Owie.

Re: Yes...

[gingicat]

can tell you, that's basically "my" Bucky, the way he would've been at the beginning of "No Winter Lasts Forever." He hurts so beautifully.

YES.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I actually agree with Jarvis' analogy, though I'd upgrade it to "a key that came out of the gun holster hidden under my clothes." <<

Heh. Well put.

>> I'm really enjoying this whole story, BTW. <<

I'm happy to hear that.

>> Have you seen The Winter Soldier yet? <<

I have now. It was awesome.

>> I would love to see Sam Wilson added to your universe, especially with his manner of using his own pain as part of his counseling skills. <<

That's on my list of things I'd like to do. It was wonderful to see someone with more than just combat skills. He's an excellent match for this series. And thanks for mentioning this -- seeing it before the movie let me watch for it.

>> Also, Falcon's part in the battle choreography is GORGEOUSLY done. <<

Agreed. Very delicate motion there.

Re: Thoughts

[gingicat]

And thanks for mentioning this -- seeing it before the movie let me watch for it.

Oh good - I was worried I'd given too much away.

[(Anonymous)]

I just want you to know that I think you are a brilliant writer and I always look forward to your updates.

Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm happy to hear that.

Phil in Canon-

[dialecticdreamer]

>> *sigh* This is a fundamental issue in the series: Phil in canon does some pretty awful things, but I needed him to be a sympathetic character. So I've rationalized this by: 1) pointing out that Tony trusted him a lot in IM2 despite Phil's rather rough behavior, 2) playing up implications that Fury encouraged or ordered most of those intrusions, and 3) acknowledging that sometimes those actions have a later cost to developing relationships.<<

----- Okay, first I had to make a blinkin’ timeline:
X The Movie Which I Completely Invalidate (2003)
X The Incredible Hulk (2008)
Iron Man (2008)
Iron Man 2 (2010)
X Captain America (2011)
A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor’s Hammer (2011)
Avengers (2012)
Iron Man 3 (2013)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014, out but SPOILERS!)

CONTINUITY SNAG: according to the trivia page on IMDB, the events of the attempt to capture Hulk at Culver University are playing on monitors in SHIELD headquarters during the events of Iron Man 2, making them concurrent in the canon timeline. (Also, the events of Thor are beginning as this movie ends.)

Easter Egg Security Breach: At the end of the first movie, Nick Fury has gained entry to the Malibu house. (Probably unlawfully, as he wasn’t acting to prevent a crime in progress, but merely there to discuss something, but he’s a whole tun of awful and a separate discussion to boot.) That’s set in 2008 as well.

That’s it. That’s not a lot of screen time to build the kind of fan attention that Coulson has generated, especially as he did not appear in the Hulk movies A and B, or in Captain America. In addition, only the short “A Funny Thing-” is Phil-focused.

I’m treating the entire body of “Agents of SHIELD” as off-limits as evidence in this discussion, as is “Captain America: the Winter Soldier.” The former began airing fall of 2013, and Winter Soldier opened on Friday, 4 March 2014. (It was fantabulous, by the way!) Because both represent “current events” in universe, specifically things which aren’t expected to have disseminated outside the cluster of people on-screen or MAYBE to the SHIELD mission debriefings, I doubt they interconnect to the Avengers enough to affect THEIR opinions and decisions.

Thor and Thor 2: The Dark World aren’t on the list either, as they involve characters not yet active in Ysabetwordsmith’s universe.

Point of order: Nick Fury’s BEHAVIOR, directly shown, is fair game. His motivations could be interpreted --there are how many different people on the planet??-- a boatload of different ways. Please confine comments about his responsibility, culpability and effect on characters to those backed up directly by canon. So, no scary-emergency-defense-laser hiding under the eyepatch, because there’s no sign of one in canon.

Re: Phil in Canon-

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> ----- Okay, first I had to make a blinkin’ timeline: <<

Have I mentioned recently the awesome of which you are made?

>> X The Movie Which I Completely Invalidate (2003) <<

... but which I raided for inspiration why Bruce-and-Hulk are smashed to bits.

>> X The Incredible Hulk (2008) <<

Mostly canon for this series.

>> Iron Man (2008)
Iron Man 2 (2010)
X Captain America (2011)
A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor’s Hammer (2011)
Avengers (2012) <<

Canon for this series.

>> Iron Man 3 (2013) <<

NOT canon. However, I did gank things that match the rest of canon:
* Tony doesn't sleep well, has raging PTSD nightmares, and Pepper does not deal with that well.
* Also has panic attacks while awake.
* Makes things all the time, including more suits. Hasn't gotten around to a prehensile suit yet, though.
* Yes, Pepper, we know you hate the suits.

Canon DIVERGENCE: Natasha scuttled the Extremis plan earlier. Doesn't mean AIM isn't still faffing around with some of that stuff, but the IM3 storyline is off the rails.

>> Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014, out but SPOILERS!) <<

Haven't seen it yet, plan to this week. Probably not canon. However, that rendition of the Winter Soldier? Looks much like I imagined Bucky at the beginning of "No Winter Lasts Forever."

Canon: Steve's shield ways between 40-50 pounds, per physics analysis of the superhero frisbee scene.

>> CONTINUITY SNAG: according to the trivia page on IMDB, the events of the attempt to capture Hulk at Culver University are playing on monitors in SHIELD headquarters during the events of Iron Man 2, making them concurrent in the canon timeline. <<

*facepalm* Dudes, there is only so much that even a high-court fey with a fondness for quantum physics can do to fix your fuckup of a continuity stream.

>> (Also, the events of Thor are beginning as this movie ends.) <<

Now that I did account for.

>> Easter Egg Security Breach: At the end of the first movie, Nick Fury has gained entry to the Malibu house. (Probably unlawfully, as he wasn’t acting to prevent a crime in progress, but merely there to discuss something, but he’s a whole tun of awful and a separate discussion to boot.) That’s set in 2008 as well. <<

To be discussed in a later installment of this story.

>> That’s it. That’s not a lot of screen time to build the kind of fan attention that Coulson has generated, especially as he did not appear in the Hulk movies A and B, or in Captain America. In addition, only the short “A Funny Thing-” is Phil-focused. <<

True. I'm basing a lot of Phil on Thor and Iron Man 2, plus his mostly better showing in The Avengers.

>> I’m treating the entire body of “Agents of SHIELD” as off-limits as evidence in this discussion, as is “Captain America: the Winter Soldier.” <<

Agreed, although I may mooch later from those sources.

>> Thor and Thor 2: The Dark World aren’t on the list either, as they involve characters not yet active in Ysabetwordsmith’s universe. <<

Not currently on camera. The events of Thor are canon. Thor 2 is NOT canon, but again, I'll be borrowing some relevant bits. I would've been happy to incorporate T2 except that I refuse to support such fucking lazy sexist plotwank.

Explicitly on the list of Phil's objectionable behavior is confiscating people's research. I don't care what your justification is, this will make scientists hate you like poison, and if you do not shoot everyone who knows and stuff them in a ditch, they will tell their friends, and this will later come back to bite your ass with honeybadgers. Thus far, I've mentioned tidbits about SHIELD having a hard time with scientists. But Phil hasn't had to deal much with Jane and Darcy again yet. Won't this be fun?

Other key points of Phil's behavior:

* threatening to tase Tony, whom Phil presumably knows was tortured with electricity and definitely knows is currently dying of heavy-metal poisoning and thus impaired

(So far the best explanation of this is that Phil studied Tony's diction enough to venture this as comfort in the same way that Tony considers "I will donate you to a community college!" legitimate family conversation.)

* sending Natasha to enslave Bruce-and-Hulk for dealing with the Tesseract.

(Yes, they were needed. But Tony could've got Bruce on board with Candyland. Heck, I probably could've hired him for a couple of days in exchange for SHIELD donating a million dollars to Doctors Without Borders. Guy's an open book.)

Re: Phil in Canon- recruiting Bruce

[dialecticdreamer]

WOOHOOO! Now we're working from the same body of materials. Let's get in there with microscopes, macroscopes, and everyone's favorite research methodologies. (Rubbing hands together.) Just don't send it to Reddit to "investigate"; they get a little ahead of themselves sometimes.

First, there are probably thousands of different ways Bruce could've been approached. The methodology there practically SCREAMS "Nick Fury Ordered It!" In 72-point type. Natasha was the one to approach Bruce, apparently on Phil's orders, but I have problems with that. Natasha is practically THE worst person to approach Bruce. She doesn't use emotions the same way Bruce does, but somehow she's SO openly nervous about being near Bruce that everybody and their uncle could see it?

I'm not buying it. That attitude ALONE could certainly have spooked Bruce into running. Why do that when simply sending a different person could've created a different interaction? Why draw Bruce away BEFORE trying to impress on him the need for Bruce's skills, which implies that they think he lacks control-- but do so with someone who is already freaked out enough that a slight startle would make her draw her weapon AND flick the safety off?

Bruce is not a cop, not former military, not visibly armed (though a case could be made for the Hulk to be a living 'armament')-- simply drawing the weapon would've been sufficient for the danger presented. Slipping from Bruce to Hulk takes time, as well. More than enough for her to flip off the safety, in fact.

This is entirely conjecture: /if/ Bruce had Hulked for any reason-- which seems to be the way the scale was weighted-- then the surrounding soldiers all had "reason" to shoot him with whatever they felt would contain him. Not kill. He would've "woken up" in custody, likely in Hulk's room on the helicarrier, and been given the option to make "restitution" for whatever injuries and property damage they could make him believe he had caused.

None of this is Phil's approach as a handler.

But it is Nick Fury's. Phil has worked with Fury for years; he would KNOW how that particular frog jumps.

It is also the worst kind of psychological enslavement. That it worked at all, says a great many things about Bruce-and-Hulk's innate personalities.

So, more conjecture: I think FURY ordered Coulson to recruit both Stark and Banner, but EXPECTED him to retrieve Banner and send 'Tasha to Stark, assuming that a pretty face, the "harmless" and familiar facade from her time undercover in SI, and Tony's "need to be the center of attention" would do most of the work of "recruiting" him.

if Phil flipped the assignments, I think he did so not to make their efforts fail, but to put the efforts on more equal footings between the agent and the recruited party. Both of the agents COULD have recruited either civilian, using methods Nick Fury wouldn't expect, but by sending the lesser "threat" in each case, it gave both Bruce-and-Hulk and Tony more honest clues about what was really at risk.

Opinions?

Re: Phil in Canon- Continuity snag

[dialecticdreamer]

>> >> CONTINUITY SNAG: according to the trivia page on IMDB, the events of the attempt to capture Hulk at Culver University are playing on monitors in SHIELD headquarters during the events of Iron Man 2, making them concurrent in the canon timeline. <<

*facepalm* Dudes, there is only so much that even a high-court fey with a fondness for quantum physics can do to fix your fuckup of a continuity stream. <<

True. IN the theater, I was thinking that the information was playing on screen because Fury and his top people were /analysing/ Banner's history for clues to his likely behavior, not reacting to live events as they unfolded.

That neatly solves the continuity problem there, and it makes sense given Fury's obsessive behaviors in other scenes. Oddly enough, it ALSO implies to me that he's taking a keen interest in Dr. Ross' current whereabouts, work, friends, hobbies, Girl Scout cookie source, you name it.

Re: Phil in Canon- Continuity snag

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> True. IN the theater, I was thinking that the information was playing on screen because Fury and his top people were /analysing/ Banner's history for clues to his likely behavior, not reacting to live events as they unfolded. <<

Oh, that makes SO much more sense. I can work with that, if the issue comes up.

>> That neatly solves the continuity problem there, and it makes sense given Fury's obsessive behaviors in other scenes. <<

Agreed.

>> Oddly enough, it ALSO implies to me that he's taking a keen interest in Dr. Ross' current whereabouts, work, friends, hobbies, Girl Scout cookie source, you name it. <<

Well, he's fool enough to want a handle on Bruce-and-Hulk, and all the more so to think that Betty Ross is a safe thing to squeeze.

*chuckle* I got the loveliest little scene out of that. It won't show up for quite some time, but wow is he going to learn that stalking victims don't like to be spied on and annoying a genius is a bad idea. BAMF!Betty goes BAMF.

Re: Phil in Canon- Phil and Jane Foster

[dialecticdreamer]

>> Explicitly on the list of Phil's objectionable behavior is confiscating people's research. I don't care what your justification is, this will make scientists hate you like poison, and if you do not shoot everyone who knows and stuff them in a ditch, they will tell their friends, and this will later come back to bite your ass with honeybadgers. Thus far, I've mentioned tidbits about SHIELD having a hard time with scientists. But Phil hasn't had to deal much with Jane and Darcy again yet. Won't this be fun? <<

Point of order: I think the honey badgers would be rabid. All of them, arriving in packs of at least a gross, staggering arrival times PURELY for the convenience of said honey badgers. The targets are S.O.L..

So, let’s start with Phil’s behavior in Thor, and then compare it to the “datacropping hackweasel”, Hammer and the US Military.

1- He arrives and packs up ALL their physical equipment, their electronics, and their backup data, including the backups to the backups.

BUT- he presents Jane with a check for all of said materials, one presumably generous enough to cover Darcy’s confiscated Ipod and dowloads without quibbling.

The military and Hammer? Not a freaking penny, not a freaking ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that this was a transaction, however involuntary. The military consensus was that TONY OWED the government HIS creations. Period.

2- He deals directly with Jane, which shows respect. BUT, the remaining agents treat Jane, Darcy and Eric as if they’re invisible. REALLY not cool. Effective and efficient as agents, using classic “MIB” tactics. Mixed impressions to the maximum, there.

3- The total span of time for Thor is just a few days, probably less than a week. It’s a delay in Jane’s work, yes, but it was UNLIKELY to allow another scientist to publish first-- otherwise, SHIELD would’ve confiscated THEIR research, regardless of country of origin. Probably considered an acceptable risk, given the severity of the risk/threat SHIELD felt they were facing.

4- Who handled the data? Anything which looked like paperwork or computers went into the van used by Coulson. That implies he supervised its handling at least as far as getting it to the tech department assigned to interpreting what Jane had, what it meant in terms of security, and how useful it was in relation to the new “threat” that Thor represented.

I’m not quibbling that Thor did not represent a threat. My quibble is that SHIELD views everyone and everything new AS a threat. Different mindset.

Also, even ONE PAGE of data mislaid or lost (deliberately OR accidentally) could completely invalidate her YEARS of study. She’d certainly NOT be able to publish with a noticeable gap, regardless of the “national security” concerns.

5- The site at the crater seemed to be under Phil’s command. It’s very likely that said acquired data went to the same location, which bumps up Phil’s responsibility for any mishandling of data or damage to material goods which may or may not have happened. This is more than vaguely disturbing, because there IS a point where he’s no longer directly following orders; as soon as he begins INTERPRETING orders, he is responsible for the results. Period.

Beyond all of THESE details, what happened before and after Coulson arrived in New Mexico that gives me MAJOR problems.

He was given orders to check out Dr. Foster and her work. That implies that Fury or someone of similar rank sent him. (Detail: Coulson hasn’t directly listed his ranking in the information we’re drawing from, but he welcomes an agent to level 8, in a way that implies that he is at LEAST level 8 as well, but more likely level 9. That means only Nick Fury and other level 10 agents outrank Coulson, which is a SMALL POOL of people to send Coulson on an errand!)

Okay, so what happened to the data AFTER the scientists at SHIELD got hold of it? I have even bigger problems with this! In Thor 2, they’ve got monitoring equipment we didn’t see in Thor, which is specifically calibrated to the energy signature that JANE first noticed and connected to the Bifrost phenomenon.

That kind of screams “reverse engineering”, or outright copying schematics for the machinery she says she designed in ‘Thor’.

There’s no hint of compensation for that.

If a company were to take someone’s personal research and physical goods, using them to leapfrog over YEARS of groundwork, that would unquestionably be industrial espionage. WRONG.

So why is it okay when it’s done in the name of National Security (™)?

The problem isn’t with SHIELD; the problem is with the culture that ALLOWS such things. Ever.

Yes, Coulson is complicit in these thefts. But so is everyone else living in a country where such actions have been proven. (World War 2 aftermath, unquestionably. For example.)

Re: Phil in Canon- Phil and Jane Foster

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Point of order: I think the honey badgers would be rabid. All of them, arriving in packs of at least a gross, staggering arrival times PURELY for the convenience of said honey badgers. The targets are S.O.L.. <<

Well, I would've gone with plague, but that works too.

>> So, let’s start with Phil’s behavior in Thor, and then compare it to the “datacropping hackweasel”, Hammer and the US Military. <<

*chuckle* I'm glad you liked that phrase.

>> 1- He arrives and packs up ALL their physical equipment, their electronics, and their backup data, including the backups to the backups.

BUT- he presents Jane with a check for all of said materials, one presumably generous enough to cover Darcy’s confiscated Ipod and dowloads without quibbling. <<

It's better than nothing. It at least addresses the physical concerns. But it doesn't touch the intellectual damage which is that taking the data impairs Jane's professional life permanently (as far as she knows at the time, since she was later able to get some of it back). But Phil definitely came out ahead of ...

>> The military and Hammer? Not a freaking penny, not a freaking ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that this was a transaction, however involuntary. The military consensus was that TONY OWED the government HIS creations. Period. <<

... this clusterfuck. It should be obvious after Afghanistan what Tony does with Starktech that falls into the wrong hands. He destroys it. Nobody's getting anything from him that he does not choose for them to have.

Which tells us something about what really happened with War Machine, doesn't it.

>> 2- He deals directly with Jane, which shows respect. BUT, the remaining agents treat Jane, Darcy and Eric as if they’re invisible. REALLY not cool. Effective and efficient as agents, using classic “MIB” tactics. Mixed impressions to the maximum, there. <<

I think this shows that Phil and Clint are a cut above the average SHIELD personnel. They see things that other people don't.

Poor Phil, New Mexico was a mess from the beginning -- he didn't even know that he was cleaning up Odin's mess, but he sure knew that something stank to high heaven. It was clear that SHIELD had him under orders but he was wiggling as much as he had room for to minimize the damage. Case in point: using Thor to get the core of Jane's material back to her. It looked to me like the ID flagged wrong and Phil overlooked that anyway. Phil doesn't make mistakes with information. If Thor got out, and with notebook in hand, it's because Phil wanted that to happen.

>> 3- The total span of time for Thor is just a few days, probably less than a week. It’s a delay in Jane’s work, yes, but it was UNLIKELY to allow another scientist to publish first-- otherwise, SHIELD would’ve confiscated THEIR research, regardless of country of origin. Probably considered an acceptable risk, given the severity of the risk/threat SHIELD felt they were facing. <<

True. That doesn't undo the trauma, though, just contains the damage. It's like breaking someone's arm and then setting it. Still going to hurt for a while. And the damage to trust is not going to go away unless it is repaired far more explicitly than anyone had time to (or than Phil realized was necessary).

>> 4- Who handled the data? Anything which looked like paperwork or computers went into the van used by Coulson. That implies he supervised its handling at least as far as getting it to the tech department assigned to interpreting what Jane had, what it meant in terms of security, and how useful it was in relation to the new “threat” that Thor represented. <<

Which was pretty well done.

>> I’m not quibbling that Thor did not represent a threat. My quibble is that SHIELD views everyone and everything new AS a threat. Different mindset. <<

Thor was ... an unknown variable in need of careful assessment. It is SHIELD's job to deal with dangerous people. The problem comes when less-ept operatives fail to distinguish accurately between people who are dangerous and people who are a danger.

I think Phil saw something in Thor almost immediately, and Clint did too, because they chose to let him at the hammer. But Phil also must have suspected that something was a little off, and when Thor fell apart after he couldn't lift the hammer, then Phil would've known something was really wrong. Trouble is, he had to make it 'look good' for the cameras that he was 'interrogating the prisoner.' Phil is too good of a spy to mistake someone's origins; he would've known that Thor didn't match any recognized nationality or fighting style. But he was able to come up with some good fakes and let Thor slip the gate without being too obvious about it. Very well played. Why let him go? Phil must have known that not only was something desperately wrong at that point, but he felt that he somehow made the wrong call by letting Thor at the hammer since that's what broke him, even though there wasn't a clearly better option.

>> Also, even ONE PAGE of data mislaid or lost (deliberately OR accidentally) could completely invalidate her YEARS of study. She’d certainly NOT be able to publish with a noticeable gap, regardless of the “national security” concerns. <<

True, in terms of strict scientific proof. But at least she could have published what she had. Data gets lost, sometimes; you work around it.

>> 5- The site at the crater seemed to be under Phil’s command. It’s very likely that said acquired data went to the same location, which bumps up Phil’s responsibility for any mishandling of data or damage to material goods which may or may not have happened. <<

That makes sense.

>> This is more than vaguely disturbing, because there IS a point where he’s no longer directly following orders; as soon as he begins INTERPRETING orders, he is responsible for the results. Period. <<

True, and that point also applies to other orders: frex, the fiasco in Kolkata.

I think the main thing with New Mexico is that Phil was doing the best he could, and owning up to it. As you said, he dealt with Jane directly; he could've just hung back and let flunkies deal with the frantic scientist. But Phil isn't a coward. He faces the consequences of his own actions squarely.

It's no accident that he looks up to Steve.

>> Beyond all of THESE details, what happened before and after Coulson arrived in New Mexico that gives me MAJOR problems. <<

Okay ...

>> He was given orders to check out Dr. Foster and her work. That implies that Fury or someone of similar rank sent him. <<

That makes sense.

>> (Detail: Coulson hasn’t directly listed his ranking in the information we’re drawing from, but he welcomes an agent to level 8, <<

I thought that was L7?

>> in a way that implies that he is at LEAST level 8 as well, but more likely level 9. <<

I would guess L9 for Phil. Hill is probably L9 too. (Consider that Steve is L8, and Phil was handling the Avengers.)

>> That means only Nick Fury and other level 10 agents outrank Coulson, which is a SMALL POOL of people to send Coulson on an errand!) <<

Tiny pool, yes.

>> Okay, so what happened to the data AFTER the scientists at SHIELD got hold of it? I have even bigger problems with this! In Thor 2, they’ve got monitoring equipment we didn’t see in Thor, which is specifically calibrated to the energy signature that JANE first noticed and connected to the Bifrost phenomenon. <<

Yes. Thor 2 isn't canon for my series, but I'm borrowing parts that seem plausible.

>> That kind of screams “reverse engineering”, or outright copying schematics for the machinery she says she designed in ‘Thor’. <<

Well, they're spies, of course they'd copy stuff.

>> There’s no hint of compensation for that. <<

That's the problem with might-makes-right. Particularly if Jane were to decide to play by that rule and politely ask her boyfriend to use his magic hammer to hit them back.

>> If a company were to take someone’s personal research and physical goods, using them to leapfrog over YEARS of groundwork, that would unquestionably be industrial espionage. WRONG. <<

Which it is implied has happened with a number of corporations in the Marvelverse. Stark Industries, Bannertech, Hammertech, Baintronics, Oscorp -- people are always trying to steal each other's shit. It's bad and wrong, but it's also common practice.

>> So why is it okay when it’s done in the name of National Security (™)? <<

It's not, but again, people are promoting might-makes-right. Not just in the movie, but in our government; that it's okay to kill people and take their land, or lock them away without a trial, or torture them. Not only is that unethical, it eats away at your society. Shows in both America today, and SHIELD.

>> The problem isn’t with SHIELD; the problem is with the culture that ALLOWS such things. Ever. <<

The way I explain it is: "The end does not justify the means. The means determine the end."

>> Yes, Coulson is complicit in these thefts. But so is everyone else living in a country where such actions have been proven. (World War 2 aftermath, unquestionably. For example.) <<

I balance responsibility and authority. There can be no culpability for results unless someone has both knowledge and power to influence what happens. Your responsibility is in direct proportion to your authority. So I don't hold private citizens culpable for government offenses, because that's not in their power to change. If they don't make the efforts available to them to change it -- frex, voting or protesting -- then they're culpable for those decisions on that level.

With Coulson, he was the job boss, so everything in New Mexico is ultimately his responsibility, although not necessarily his personal fault. Consider that SHIELD is a nest of spies and those always have some double agents; you can't avoid it. Somebody's going to snitch things occasionally. Coulson had a responsibility to make sure his people were solid, but there's only so much individual checking that even an expert can do. A good enough counteragent could have slipped past, and that's likely where went with Jane's data. Which HYDRA now also has copies of, probably. But that's not at all the same as Coulson ordering or encouraging such violations. A commander betrayed by his own men was still acting in the right, because he had a reasonable expectation that his lawful orders would be honorably obeyed. The blame rests on the people who decide to do wrong things.

Re: Phil in Canon- The Pit Stop

[dialecticdreamer]

I think the best, most positive portrayal of Phil Coulson in canon is the short film, “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor’s Hammer”. If you haven’t seen it, well, Disney lawyers have blocked the YouTube links that went around like wildfire when Captain America first came out on DVD, so it may take a little Google-fu to find.

The basic plot is absurdly simple: the gas station where Coulson has stopped to refuel is held up by two average jerks with guns while Phil is trying to decide which flavor of donuts to buy.

From the very INSTANT his head is visible over the shelves of junk food, Agent Coulson has control of the situation. He uses the environment against the robbers, disarms them both, and then calmly pays for his snacks. Both of them, because he couldn’t decide between flavors.

The pros and cons:

+ He used the convex security mirror to assess the situation in a glance.

+ He uses only enough force to subdue each gunman.

+ He’s scrupulously honest, but in so doing creates subtle humor and conveys exactly how unworried he is by the situation.

+ He’s almost absurdly calm, which makes the whole incident even funnier to me, but YMMV.

+ The swing music he’s listening to at both the opening and closing seconds of the film is just offbeat enough to imply a lot about Coulson’s personality in only a few bars of music.

+ After having neutralized the gunmen, he approaches the counter, makes his purchase, and turns to leave. (“Attempted robbery? What attempted robbery? I’m just buying donuts, and didn’t see a thing,” all conveyed in a bland, nonverbal smile.)

+ EVERYTHING happens in the length of time it takes the automatic pump to fill the gas tank on his car. All of it! That’s jaw-dropping, awesome levels of skill.

The only negative elements?

- Coulson’s fingerprints are on one of the weapons. It’s a loose thread dangling from a coat, not a plot hole large enough to swim in, but it’s still bothersome.

- He leaves the scene of a crime instead of following through. He actively encouraged the clerk to at least imply that she managed to subdue the thieves herself, in fact. Yes, answering questions from obviously small-town, local cops is bothersome, but NOT doing so is problematic as well.

There’s strong evidence that he was driving straight through to Puente Antiguo, which implies that he didn’t want to take the time to play “whose badge is shiniest?”. Fine, but when fingerprints are not on file for someone who was clearly driving a vehicle? That’s going to make the police VERY, VERY determined to find out who he is. They’re persnickety about stuff like that, post 9/11. I’m willing to let both points slide just because it simplifies the storytelling, but watching it still leaves me wanting to write the conversation between the store clerk and the local sheriff or highway patrol, because I think it could’ve been JUST as funny and understated.

Re: Phil in Canon- The Pit Stop

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I think the best, most positive portrayal of Phil Coulson in canon is the short film, “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor’s Hammer”. <<

Agreed.

>> If you haven’t seen it, well, Disney lawyers have blocked the YouTube links that went around like wildfire when Captain America first came out on DVD, so it may take a little Google-fu to find. <<

*draw gun, aim at own foot, empty clip*

I never cease to be amazed by the sheer stupidity of companies. You would think they'd never heard of a free sample. For fucksake, they spend money on advertising, then turn around and quash word-of-mouth which is worth 10x its weight in bought words.

>> The basic plot is absurdly simple: the gas station where Coulson has stopped to refuel is held up by two average jerks with guns while Phil is trying to decide which flavor of donuts to buy. <<

Yeah, that was never going to end well for them. I'm reminded of something John Watson said on Sherlock -- "I guess I'm just used to a higher caliber of criminal."

>> From the very INSTANT his head is visible over the shelves of junk food, Agent Coulson has control of the situation. He uses the environment against the robbers, disarms them both, and then calmly pays for his snacks. Both of them, because he couldn’t decide between flavors. <<

No wonder he's so sympathetic of Bucky's choice paralysis.

>> The pros and cons:

+ He used the convex security mirror to assess the situation in a glance. <<

Clever.

>> + He uses only enough force to subdue each gunman. <<

This was a lovely illustration of Phil's grasp of appropriate force. But he has to be able to judge that down to a hair's breadth, because he has to teach it to his assets.

>> + He’s scrupulously honest, but in so doing creates subtle humor and conveys exactly how unworried he is by the situation. <<

I love how he cultivates an air of harmless dweeb. And yet it's not a mask, it's just a side of Phil that he doesn't let show very often, because it's almost identical to the flibber fit he had upon meeting Steve.

>> + He’s almost absurdly calm, which makes the whole incident even funnier to me, but YMMV. <<

I thought it was hilarious too. *ponder* And scary, if you know deep-reading target assessment. Anyone who is not scared in a situation that would scare most people, is someone to take very seriously. (Usually people dismiss me due to my surface appearance, but I've been clocked more than once this way.) It tells you that Phil is a total BAMF.

>> + The swing music he’s listening to at both the opening and closing seconds of the film is just offbeat enough to imply a lot about Coulson’s personality in only a few bars of music. <<

Agreed, and thanks for pegging the music for me. That's going to come in handy later.

>> + After having neutralized the gunmen, he approaches the counter, makes his purchase, and turns to leave. (“Attempted robbery? What attempted robbery? I’m just buying donuts, and didn’t see a thing,” all conveyed in a bland, nonverbal smile.) <<

*chuckle* Yeah, that was beautiful.

>> + EVERYTHING happens in the length of time it takes the automatic pump to fill the gas tank on his car. All of it! That’s jaw-dropping, awesome levels of skill. <<

I agree. Diamonds and dynamite both come in small packages.

The only negative elements?

>> - Coulson’s fingerprints are on one of the weapons. It’s a loose thread dangling from a coat, not a plot hole large enough to swim in, but it’s still bothersome. <<

Well, not quite. I'm given to believe that Phil just doesn't make that kind of sloppy mistake. Possibilities include:

* Many guns are designed not to take fingerprints, for example, having textured grips. This is common enough to be probable, especially if said guns have been selected for use in a crime.

* SHIELD likely has avoiding fingerprints, such as coating one's hands with something to fill in the ridges or keep the oils sealed so they can't leave patterns. Think of it like an invisible glove.

>> - He leaves the scene of a crime instead of following through. He actively encouraged the clerk to at least imply that she managed to subdue the thieves herself, in fact. Yes, answering questions from obviously small-town, local cops is bothersome, but NOT doing so is problematic as well. <<

It's a case of global over local scope, so I'm willing to let Phil get away with that; although it is high-handed and locally troublesome.

>> There’s strong evidence that he was driving straight through to Puente Antiguo, <<

That makes sense.

>> which implies that he didn’t want to take the time to play “whose badge is shiniest?”. <<

It would not really have been a safe thing to do.

>> Fine, but when fingerprints are not on file for someone who was clearly driving a vehicle? That’s going to make the police VERY, VERY determined to find out who he is. They’re persnickety about stuff like that, post 9/11. <<

Most people who drive, don't have their fingerprints on file. It's a requirement for commercial drivers, I think, but not everyone. And I doubt Phil would have left fingerprints. Spies generally don't.

>> I’m willing to let both points slide just because it simplifies the storytelling, but watching it still leaves me wanting to write the conversation between the store clerk and the local sheriff or highway patrol, because I think it could’ve been JUST as funny and understated. <<

The simplest solution would be to send a SHIELD agent to take over the case, posing as federal, and smooth over the ruffled feathers bit of discreet bribery in the form of donuts or booze. Which is something Phil could have done as soon as he got in the car.

Still be funny to hear the explanation though.

Re: Phil in Canon- The Pit Stop

[lyrys]

I hadn't even heard of that short, so naturally, especially after your description, I had to immediately make use of the almighty Google...and I found this:

http://www.joblo.com/videos/movie-clips/marvel-one-shot2

It may not be the best-quality version available, and there's no guarantee how long the video will remain there, but that's the first one I found and for now, it's a working link.

You know, I've noticed that almost everything Phil does (throughout canon) is understated, but somehow that seems to make him even more effective.

Also, I totally agree with your pros and cons, and if you ever write that clerk/sheriff conversation, I'd love to read it!