>> You may want to sit through Hulk (2003) again. <<
I would really rather not. It's awful. Part of the problem I have is that it blurs together in my mind with the 2008 Incredible Hulk movie. Then too, I throw in bits of other Hulk canon, so mine is really a mix; it's not an exact replica of anything.
>> However, the flashback showing his father killing his mother is clearly after the one with her smiling at him as a four-year-old, while chatting with a female adult at the dining area.<<
I think I'm just going to have to call this a divergence point. The time of death for Bruce's mother does vary across canon. So for this series, it was toddler age.
>> -- Total aside-- Notice how the flashbacks only show the parents interacting with Bruce separately? They're TOGETHER only in the scene where she dies. That implies a metric crap-ton about his family dynamics, right there. <<
Painfully true, and thanks for pointing that out.
Have you also noticed that Betty is a lot like Bruce's mother, only tough as masonry nails? Betty is eerily adept at mothering Bruce-and-Hulk when they need it, yet still managing a romantic relationship. Some people are just that flexible. And she is nobody's easy meat. Her father may still manage to abuse her but she makes the bastard work for it.
>> (I am DEFINITELY going to try to watch that again this weekend, now that I'm questioning accuracy of recall.) <<
Feel free to continue feeback on it.
>> But statistically, yes, he's likely to have bounced through every relative on either side until they'd exhausted all the options before placing Bruce with non-family foster parents. Given the craptastic job his parents displayed, that's likely to mean a lot MORE abuse to add to the roster. <<
That makes sense. More neglect and physical abuse from people who are supposed to love him would inure him to the idea of it.
>> Also given that statistics hover right around 1 in 4 boys being sexually abused WHILE in foster care, it doesn't immediately mean that any of THOSE placements were safe, either.-- That stat is separate from physical or emotional abuse incidents, just to really scare a sane person! <<
Yes. I'm inclined to think that full-on rape is unlikely. Nothing else has really healed, so I don't think a sexual one would have, and he seems functional with Betty. But things like inappropriate touching, visual displays, or other boundary violations are very possible.
The way Bruce hides in his clothes is very suggestive of bodily trespass. So is the fact that my Bruce absolutely hates being tickled, to the point of violent or panic-stricken reaction. So far it's only been mentioned obliquely, but both Bruce and Betty are dead serious about that as a Hard Limit. Tickling can be a manifestation of sexual abuse, and it's hard to deal with because so few people do take it seriously.
>> To top it all off, it takes legal procedures, with the resulting red tape,to strip an incarcerated parent of legal rights. His father was sentenced for murder, but for the whole duration of the elder Banner's incarceration before and during trial, Bruce would have been subjected to SHORT-TERM stays. That's at best a new family every few weeks. <<
So that trains Bruce in moving often, not bothering with possessions or friends or any other attachments because he knows it won't last. Nowhere is really home. Family is bad. Connections are lies or manipulations. Nobody really cares. It is safer to go unnoticed than to attract attention.
>> Only after his father was convicted of murder would the foster system be allowed to place Bruce with the long-term intention of either stable fosterage or adoption. <<
And by then it was too late, Bruce was unable to form a stable attachment because he couldn't believe it would last. It probably didn't. He might have gone a year or two between placements rather than weeks, but kids that broken have Problems and it's not rare for a family to hand them back.
>> If his father had ANY friends in the military hierarchy, it could've been quite easy to make Bruce a legal orphan, in complete limbo in terms of who actually had custody, because as far as I can find, it takes a military tribunal to strip parental rights of an active-duty service person. <<
Given the high level of material he worked with, I figure Brian Banner had some powerful friends with whom he exchanged favors.
>> Was Brian Banner a civilian consultant, or military? <<
I'm inclined to say military scientist. That would contribute to Bruce's extreme (and well-founded) aversion to all things military, as well as his insistence on remaining a civilian contractor himself.
>> All told, there's likely to be a history of rejection after rejection after bewildering transitions all coming AFTER that first emergency placement at age four, when his father was arrested. He'd have a few days to a week with that family while other relatives were sought. <<
Yes, the shuffling must have caused a tremendous amount of damage right when he most needed stability.
>> The comparison to re-breaking bones resonates with me as particularly apt. <<
... including the part where, if a freshly broken bone is kept moving, it can't set properly and is pretty much guaranteed to heal wrong.
This is why good mental first aid advises restoring agency as soon as people can handle it, and helping them feel safe again. You can't fix the problem until the shock wears off, but you can kind of immobilize the injury to keep it from getting worse. Sadly, there is almost no effort to teach mental first aid.
>> Especially given that it's recurring damage that could've been prevented if he'd been placed with someone like Uncle Phil for long enough to actually HEAL. <<
Yes. However, I think this does give us one more clue: that initial placement probably was with someone like Uncle Phil. It would make sense to place a freshly traumatized child with someone who could keep him from hurting himself or going completely catatonic -- the equivalent of intensive care. But those are in extremely short supply, so they're only for emergency use. As soon as another placement was found, Bruce would get transferred out to make room for the next fresh casualty.
This is why we have a little!Bruce who is able to hide under the coffee table instead of pretending that everything is fine. He got just a tiny taste of real support to plant the subconscious idea that hope is a non-zero value. He may not even remember it, that was probably Hulk's work for the most part, but it's in there.
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dancing_serpent
Re: Phil is Awesome Again!
Date: 2014-04-25 09:48 pm (UTC)I would really rather not. It's awful. Part of the problem I have is that it blurs together in my mind with the 2008 Incredible Hulk movie. Then too, I throw in bits of other Hulk canon, so mine is really a mix; it's not an exact replica of anything.
>> However, the flashback showing his father killing his mother is clearly after the one with her smiling at him as a four-year-old, while chatting with a female adult at the dining area.<<
I think I'm just going to have to call this a divergence point. The time of death for Bruce's mother does vary across canon. So for this series, it was toddler age.
>> -- Total aside-- Notice how the flashbacks only show the parents interacting with Bruce separately? They're TOGETHER only in the scene where she dies. That implies a metric crap-ton about his family dynamics, right there. <<
Painfully true, and thanks for pointing that out.
Have you also noticed that Betty is a lot like Bruce's mother, only tough as masonry nails? Betty is eerily adept at mothering Bruce-and-Hulk when they need it, yet still managing a romantic relationship. Some people are just that flexible. And she is nobody's easy meat. Her father may still manage to abuse her but she makes the bastard work for it.
>> (I am DEFINITELY going to try to watch that again this weekend, now that I'm questioning accuracy of recall.) <<
Feel free to continue feeback on it.
>> But statistically, yes, he's likely to have bounced through every relative on either side until they'd exhausted all the options before placing Bruce with non-family foster parents. Given the craptastic job his parents displayed, that's likely to mean a lot MORE abuse to add to the roster. <<
That makes sense. More neglect and physical abuse from people who are supposed to love him would inure him to the idea of it.
>> Also given that statistics hover right around 1 in 4 boys being sexually abused WHILE in foster care, it doesn't immediately mean that any of THOSE placements were safe, either.-- That stat is separate from physical or emotional abuse incidents, just to really scare a sane person! <<
Yes. I'm inclined to think that full-on rape is unlikely. Nothing else has really healed, so I don't think a sexual one would have, and he seems functional with Betty. But things like inappropriate touching, visual displays, or other boundary violations are very possible.
The way Bruce hides in his clothes is very suggestive of bodily trespass. So is the fact that my Bruce absolutely hates being tickled, to the point of violent or panic-stricken reaction. So far it's only been mentioned obliquely, but both Bruce and Betty are dead serious about that as a Hard Limit. Tickling can be a manifestation of sexual abuse, and it's hard to deal with because so few people do take it seriously.
>> To top it all off, it takes legal procedures, with the resulting red tape,to strip an incarcerated parent of legal rights. His father was sentenced for murder, but for the whole duration of the elder Banner's incarceration before and during trial, Bruce would have been subjected to SHORT-TERM stays. That's at best a new family every few weeks. <<
So that trains Bruce in moving often, not bothering with possessions or friends or any other attachments because he knows it won't last. Nowhere is really home. Family is bad. Connections are lies or manipulations. Nobody really cares. It is safer to go unnoticed than to attract attention.
>> Only after his father was convicted of murder would the foster system be allowed to place Bruce with the long-term intention of either stable fosterage or adoption. <<
And by then it was too late, Bruce was unable to form a stable attachment because he couldn't believe it would last. It probably didn't. He might have gone a year or two between placements rather than weeks, but kids that broken have Problems and it's not rare for a family to hand them back.
>> If his father had ANY friends in the military hierarchy, it could've been quite easy to make Bruce a legal orphan, in complete limbo in terms of who actually had custody, because as far as I can find, it takes a military tribunal to strip parental rights of an active-duty service person. <<
Given the high level of material he worked with, I figure Brian Banner had some powerful friends with whom he exchanged favors.
>> Was Brian Banner a civilian consultant, or military? <<
I'm inclined to say military scientist. That would contribute to Bruce's extreme (and well-founded) aversion to all things military, as well as his insistence on remaining a civilian contractor himself.
>> All told, there's likely to be a history of rejection after rejection after bewildering transitions all coming AFTER that first emergency placement at age four, when his father was arrested. He'd have a few days to a week with that family while other relatives were sought. <<
Yes, the shuffling must have caused a tremendous amount of damage right when he most needed stability.
>> The comparison to re-breaking bones resonates with me as particularly apt. <<
... including the part where, if a freshly broken bone is kept moving, it can't set properly and is pretty much guaranteed to heal wrong.
This is why good mental first aid advises restoring agency as soon as people can handle it, and helping them feel safe again. You can't fix the problem until the shock wears off, but you can kind of immobilize the injury to keep it from getting worse. Sadly, there is almost no effort to teach mental first aid.
>> Especially given that it's recurring damage that could've been prevented if he'd been placed with someone like Uncle Phil for long enough to actually HEAL. <<
Yes. However, I think this does give us one more clue: that initial placement probably was with someone like Uncle Phil. It would make sense to place a freshly traumatized child with someone who could keep him from hurting himself or going completely catatonic -- the equivalent of intensive care. But those are in extremely short supply, so they're only for emergency use. As soon as another placement was found, Bruce would get transferred out to make room for the next fresh casualty.
This is why we have a little!Bruce who is able to hide under the coffee table instead of pretending that everything is fine. He got just a tiny taste of real support to plant the subconscious idea that hope is a non-zero value. He may not even remember it, that was probably Hulk's work for the most part, but it's in there.