Story: "Hairpins" Part 17
Mar. 28th, 2014 12:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
WARNING: Phil proceeds to lose his shit over the memory of hacking into JARVIS and his interpretation of its implications. Meanwhile JARVIS, who has no idea what has gone wrong with Phil, is worrying his head off. Please make sure you're in safe headspace and environment before deciding whether to read onward.
"Hairpins" Part 17
"... time is 10:23 A.M. on ..."
What Phil had done to JARVIS was inexcusable. There were words for that kind of violation. For that crime. It didn't matter to Phil that the law would read it differently. It didn't matter that he had not known.
How could you not know that you were raping someone?
"... weather is cold and clear today; temperature ..."
The word sawed through his mind, jagged and implacable. Phil's stomach flipped over. He swallowed hard against the sour taste at the back of his throat. He felt disgraced. No, worse than that. He felt filthy.
"... home safe, at Avengers Tower ..."
Phil had done some terrible things in his time. He had lied and manipulated, tortured and killed, to complete a mission or protect his people. You didn't work in espionage without getting your hands dirty. You tried to minimize collateral damage, but in the end, you took responsibility for whatever happened. You made your choices and you lived with the outcomes, good or bad. Phil had always known what he was doing, though, weighed the cost against the gain. He had done those things mindfully and accepted the burdens.
" ... and you can get through this ..."
To have violated someone out of sheer blind ignorance felt so much worse. Phil wondered if he would ever feel clean again.
" ... to focus on your breathing, and now ..."
That reminder helped. Phil seized on it as an anchor. He dragged in a breath, another, struggling to get his wayward body under control. This he knew. This he could do. Phil breathed again, slower, deeper. He wiped his sweaty hands against his trousers. The Starkpad, its screen gone dark, slid off his lap to land on the couch. Phil made himself sit up and look around the room. It seemed unchanged, normal, jarring in comparison to the storm inside him.
"Phil? You seem to be calming down some. Please answer me if you can," said JARVIS.
Phil had only heard that velvet-warm tone a few times before, when Tony or Steve had gotten caught in a flashback -- and yes, now that he thought about it, that was the flashback routine that JARVIS was reciting. "Why are you even still speaking to me?" he wondered aloud, his voice hoarse.
"Your vital signs spiked, and you became unresponsive," JARVIS said. "I worried. How are you feeling now?"
"I'm ..." Phil began, then paused. Fine would be a bald-faced lie. "... not in any danger."
"Would you like me to call someone for you?"
"No." His team didn't need to see him like this; they needed his strength.
"Is there anything I can do that might help you feel better?"
"God, no, you don't owe me anything," Phil said. He stretched, trying to make his ill-fitting body feel like it belonged to him again. His muscles ached as if he'd just run an obstacle course.
"If you want to say anything, I am listening."
"I'm sorry." The words tumbled out before Phil could catch them. "I am so sorry for what I did to you."
"You're sorry. You're not in any danger. What are you sorry about, Phil?" asked JARVIS.
* * *
Notes:
(Many of the following links contain some intense stuff as they examine the mess at hand.)
Phil jumps to a sexual metaphor partly because of the stylistic actions he remembers (i.e. the code is JARVIS' mind, the building is his body, and Phil entered both without consent) and partly because of the severity of violation, even though nobody's genitals were involved. There are already discussions of robot rape underway, as people consider whether an artificial intelligence could commit or suffer such violation. This leads to the question of programmed consent, what it means for an artificial intelligence to be able to consent and what things constitute a breach of integrity. It is, furthermore, damaging for the assailant to treat another sapient being that way, in addition to damaging the victim; in which regard, even facsimile rape is injurious as well as often considered immoral.
There is a close parallel with mind rape, given that AIs tend to be more mind than body and reprogramming them is a violation of their integrity. This overlaps the idea of reprogramming humans through brainwashing, a touchy issue for SHIELD personnel in general and also for the Avengers. It involves not just brutal torture techniques, but also quite subtle manipulation. That is, Phil's intrusion was not violent, but that does not disqualify it from being a violation. Another related category is emotional rape, where the perpetrator seeks to dominate and control the victim. It is closely associated with brainwashing. While Phil was not aiming for humiliation or heartache, he definitely manipulated the relationship between JARVIS and Tony, promoting his own importance beyond what he had honestly earned.
Rape isn't always as easy to recognize as many people would think. Many survivors do not realize they were raped. It is especially difficult for male survivors who were raped by women. Many perpetrators do not think of themselves as rapists. Consider how sexual offenders think about their actions and their different motivations. Now compare this to reprogramming an artificial intelligence. It's "working a no into a yes" all over again. It's dealing with someone whose ability and willingness to give or withhold consent may be imperfect. There are ways to support a survivor of rape or other violation, and to break habits of sexual violence.
(Now we're getting into the links that talk about how to clean up the mess, so they're less icky.)
Remorse is the feeling people have when they have failed to act with integrity and therefore regret their actions. Phil feels dirty because he crossed a line without realizing it at the time, and blames himself. Understand how to live with regret and learn from mistakes.
Achieving emotional control is easier if you understand the different areas and modes of the human brain. Self-trust is the lever that makes it possible to switch gears inside yourself. Then you can use your knowledge to regain control of yourself in a crisis. Even though Phil just knocked himself ass over teakettle, he knows how to get his feet back under him.
Breathing is one of the most important pillars of composure. There are many exercises for breathing your way to calm and relaxation. Deep breathing soothes anxiety especially well. Here is a video of a yoga breathing technique for stress relief.
Aftercare for a flashback or panic attack is as important as support during one. There are tips on caring for yourself after a flashback and helping someone after a panic attack. Understand that various people find different things to be helpful or aggravating; learn what works for you or your friend, and do that. In general, be quiet and gentle, and offer comfort. JARVIS doesn't know Phil intimately yet, but is learning his parameters, and has a standard routine for treating emotional overload. Sadly the Avengers had a lot of Blue Screen of Death episodes, the first few months after moving in.
Mirroring is a technique used in therapy and conversation, where one person repeats or paraphrases what the other person says. It provides validation, supports understanding, and helps identify feelings or ideas that may not be completely clear yet. There are different variations of such conversational reflection. JARVIS uses mirroring to soothe Phil, and to entice enough explanation out of him to learn what went wrong and how to respond.
Apologizing can be a difficult task, but honorable people face it with courage. There are tips on how to make a good apology. Phil blurts his out before he has quite put all the pieces together in his head, let alone put himself back together.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
WARNING: Phil proceeds to lose his shit over the memory of hacking into JARVIS and his interpretation of its implications. Meanwhile JARVIS, who has no idea what has gone wrong with Phil, is worrying his head off. Please make sure you're in safe headspace and environment before deciding whether to read onward.
"Hairpins" Part 17
"... time is 10:23 A.M. on ..."
What Phil had done to JARVIS was inexcusable. There were words for that kind of violation. For that crime. It didn't matter to Phil that the law would read it differently. It didn't matter that he had not known.
How could you not know that you were raping someone?
"... weather is cold and clear today; temperature ..."
The word sawed through his mind, jagged and implacable. Phil's stomach flipped over. He swallowed hard against the sour taste at the back of his throat. He felt disgraced. No, worse than that. He felt filthy.
"... home safe, at Avengers Tower ..."
Phil had done some terrible things in his time. He had lied and manipulated, tortured and killed, to complete a mission or protect his people. You didn't work in espionage without getting your hands dirty. You tried to minimize collateral damage, but in the end, you took responsibility for whatever happened. You made your choices and you lived with the outcomes, good or bad. Phil had always known what he was doing, though, weighed the cost against the gain. He had done those things mindfully and accepted the burdens.
" ... and you can get through this ..."
To have violated someone out of sheer blind ignorance felt so much worse. Phil wondered if he would ever feel clean again.
" ... to focus on your breathing, and now ..."
That reminder helped. Phil seized on it as an anchor. He dragged in a breath, another, struggling to get his wayward body under control. This he knew. This he could do. Phil breathed again, slower, deeper. He wiped his sweaty hands against his trousers. The Starkpad, its screen gone dark, slid off his lap to land on the couch. Phil made himself sit up and look around the room. It seemed unchanged, normal, jarring in comparison to the storm inside him.
"Phil? You seem to be calming down some. Please answer me if you can," said JARVIS.
Phil had only heard that velvet-warm tone a few times before, when Tony or Steve had gotten caught in a flashback -- and yes, now that he thought about it, that was the flashback routine that JARVIS was reciting. "Why are you even still speaking to me?" he wondered aloud, his voice hoarse.
"Your vital signs spiked, and you became unresponsive," JARVIS said. "I worried. How are you feeling now?"
"I'm ..." Phil began, then paused. Fine would be a bald-faced lie. "... not in any danger."
"Would you like me to call someone for you?"
"No." His team didn't need to see him like this; they needed his strength.
"Is there anything I can do that might help you feel better?"
"God, no, you don't owe me anything," Phil said. He stretched, trying to make his ill-fitting body feel like it belonged to him again. His muscles ached as if he'd just run an obstacle course.
"If you want to say anything, I am listening."
"I'm sorry." The words tumbled out before Phil could catch them. "I am so sorry for what I did to you."
"You're sorry. You're not in any danger. What are you sorry about, Phil?" asked JARVIS.
* * *
Notes:
(Many of the following links contain some intense stuff as they examine the mess at hand.)
Phil jumps to a sexual metaphor partly because of the stylistic actions he remembers (i.e. the code is JARVIS' mind, the building is his body, and Phil entered both without consent) and partly because of the severity of violation, even though nobody's genitals were involved. There are already discussions of robot rape underway, as people consider whether an artificial intelligence could commit or suffer such violation. This leads to the question of programmed consent, what it means for an artificial intelligence to be able to consent and what things constitute a breach of integrity. It is, furthermore, damaging for the assailant to treat another sapient being that way, in addition to damaging the victim; in which regard, even facsimile rape is injurious as well as often considered immoral.
There is a close parallel with mind rape, given that AIs tend to be more mind than body and reprogramming them is a violation of their integrity. This overlaps the idea of reprogramming humans through brainwashing, a touchy issue for SHIELD personnel in general and also for the Avengers. It involves not just brutal torture techniques, but also quite subtle manipulation. That is, Phil's intrusion was not violent, but that does not disqualify it from being a violation. Another related category is emotional rape, where the perpetrator seeks to dominate and control the victim. It is closely associated with brainwashing. While Phil was not aiming for humiliation or heartache, he definitely manipulated the relationship between JARVIS and Tony, promoting his own importance beyond what he had honestly earned.
Rape isn't always as easy to recognize as many people would think. Many survivors do not realize they were raped. It is especially difficult for male survivors who were raped by women. Many perpetrators do not think of themselves as rapists. Consider how sexual offenders think about their actions and their different motivations. Now compare this to reprogramming an artificial intelligence. It's "working a no into a yes" all over again. It's dealing with someone whose ability and willingness to give or withhold consent may be imperfect. There are ways to support a survivor of rape or other violation, and to break habits of sexual violence.
(Now we're getting into the links that talk about how to clean up the mess, so they're less icky.)
Remorse is the feeling people have when they have failed to act with integrity and therefore regret their actions. Phil feels dirty because he crossed a line without realizing it at the time, and blames himself. Understand how to live with regret and learn from mistakes.
Achieving emotional control is easier if you understand the different areas and modes of the human brain. Self-trust is the lever that makes it possible to switch gears inside yourself. Then you can use your knowledge to regain control of yourself in a crisis. Even though Phil just knocked himself ass over teakettle, he knows how to get his feet back under him.
Breathing is one of the most important pillars of composure. There are many exercises for breathing your way to calm and relaxation. Deep breathing soothes anxiety especially well. Here is a video of a yoga breathing technique for stress relief.
Aftercare for a flashback or panic attack is as important as support during one. There are tips on caring for yourself after a flashback and helping someone after a panic attack. Understand that various people find different things to be helpful or aggravating; learn what works for you or your friend, and do that. In general, be quiet and gentle, and offer comfort. JARVIS doesn't know Phil intimately yet, but is learning his parameters, and has a standard routine for treating emotional overload. Sadly the Avengers had a lot of Blue Screen of Death episodes, the first few months after moving in.
Mirroring is a technique used in therapy and conversation, where one person repeats or paraphrases what the other person says. It provides validation, supports understanding, and helps identify feelings or ideas that may not be completely clear yet. There are different variations of such conversational reflection. JARVIS uses mirroring to soothe Phil, and to entice enough explanation out of him to learn what went wrong and how to respond.
Apologizing can be a difficult task, but honorable people face it with courage. There are tips on how to make a good apology. Phil blurts his out before he has quite put all the pieces together in his head, let alone put himself back together.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 01:41 am (UTC)"Apologizing can be a difficult task, but honorable people face it with courage."
This. THIS. Why do so few people approach this task with honor, as a duty to do the right thing and make amends?
Is it just fear? Of losing face?
I don't understand.
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 01:52 am (UTC)- backing down in any way, shape or form, even if it's just the ILLUSION of backing down, is BAD. It "hurts their reputation". BLEEEEEP that. Reputation is MORE than just "other people do what he says. He's always right."
- "Face" is VERY different at least from this Westerner's viewpoint. It's about doing the 'right' thing, not 'being right'. VERY, VERY big difference there.
- Fear of looking foolish is a BIG DEAL to most people. When you're already half-crazy from the biochemical madhouse we call "adolescence", and living in a society that openly mocks anyone or anything different than "they" are -- whatever the subgroup labeled "they" might be in a particular situation-- it's a recipe for disaster.
- Kids grow up in households where NO ONE apologizes. The attitude in my area is "forget it", not implying, "It's minor, I've gotten over it," but "NEVER, EVER MENTION THIS TOPIC AGAIN." In that case, fewer people even understand the distinction between the two definitions I've given for "forget it."
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 02:30 am (UTC)"Reputation is what other people know about you; honor is what you know about yourself."
Reputation is a slippery bitch. It is what people THINK it is. It may have nothing to do with facts or social function. If people think that giving a fraction of an inch is bad, they will treat it as bad, and penalize each other accordingly. This is especially visible in gender policing when males ruthlessly enforce maximum machisimo. It can get people killed. It is nevertheless rather common.
So when someone says that apologizing may damage their reputation, they may be stating a fact of social dynamics in the context they live. When you're protecting your reputation, you're taking action based on what you think will allow you to continue living with other people. It may not be factually or morally right, but it is what your local subculture says expects of you. You refrain from apologizing, or you apologize, because you are socially penalized if you violate people's expectations of you.
This is the opposite of honor. What you do for honor is taking action based on what will allow you to continue living with yourself. Everyone else may condemn you, make it difficult or impossible to participate in society, may even kill you in extreme cases. But you are following your own code of ethics and abiding by your expectations of yourself. You apologize, or do not apologize, because you feel it is the right thing to do on a moral basis. It alleviates a distress signal from inside, not from outside.
>> - "Face" is VERY different at least from this Westerner's viewpoint. It's about doing the 'right' thing, not 'being right'. VERY, VERY big difference there. <<
Face is generally considered a point of social standing, akin to reputation; and it's about expectations rather than necessarily being about morals. People may say that it's about what is right, but it's really about what people think.
>> - Fear of looking foolish is a BIG DEAL to most people. <<
This is what happens when you allow kids to attack weakness instead of protecting it. If you don't teach them that it's not okay to make fun of each other and make people cry, they'll go right on doing it. If you fall and people laugh at you or kick your books out of reach, you learn to fear failure and hide it. If you fall and people help you up, you learn that failure is just an ordinary thing that you get over with a hand from your friends.
What starts with a slip in the school hallway, however, grows into adults who have clandestine affairs or cover up their company's dangerous product flaw that could kill people. They've learned, for sake of survival, that showing any weakness is too risky. So they hide their mistakes, their poor choices, and in the process of all that ass-covering, a lot of small problems become big disasters.
>> When you're already half-crazy from the biochemical madhouse we call "adolescence", and living in a society that openly mocks anyone or anything different than "they" are -- whatever the subgroup labeled "they" might be in a particular situation-- it's a recipe for disaster. <<
Agreed.
>> - Kids grow up in households where NO ONE apologizes. <<
That's a huge problem. Everyone makes mistakes; you need to learn how to handle that in a relationship. Or you wind up with no relationships. Look around at the extreme fragmentation of society. More people than ever are living in ones or two. Many of them wish they have more connectivity but have no idea how to create it, or even that relationships require WORK.
>> The attitude in my area is "forget it", not implying, "It's minor, I've gotten over it," but "NEVER, EVER MENTION THIS TOPIC AGAIN." In that case, fewer people even understand the distinction between the two definitions I've given for "forget it." <<
You need to know, not just when and how to give an apology (or not) but also how to accept one (or not). If someone apologizes to you, then you need to think:
* What did they do to upset you, if anything?
* What practical or emotional harm did it cause?
* What if anything needs to be cleaned up?
* How upset are you, if at all?
* What will it take to make things okay between you?
If it really didn't bother you or it's a minor matter, you say something like, "It's no big deal. We're okay." (Sometimes people worry about different things. They need to KNOW that it's okay.)
If it bothered you a little, but a verbal apology is enough, then you say, "I forgive you."
If it's more serious, then you probably need to talk about it, to make sure the same problem won't happen again. You may want to ask for some kind of recompense: "I appreciate your apology, but my schedule is still messed up. Because you were two hours late yesterday, I didn't have time to do the housework, and now I'm frustrated. You could make it up to me by helping with that." A person who cares about you will, if the lateness was really their fault, say something like, "Yeah, I really screwed up. Howbout I do the dishes and laundry that you usually do?"
If you aren't sure you can forgive the offense, or you're sure you can't, that also needs to be said; and you should include what that does to your relationship. "I don't know if I can get past your affair. Maybe, but it would take a lot of couple counseling." "You borrowed my car without asking and you wrecked it. This friendship is OVER. Don't contact me again."
Most people do not know how to do this kind of self-assessment and negotiation. If one person knows and the other is willing to learn, they can manage. If one knows and the other is unwilling to learn, or neither knows, then the problem is unlikely to get solved. It may seem to smooth over, but the buildup of resentment is why so many friendships and marriages fall apart after a few years. You're "fixing" things with spit and baling wire instead of making real repairs.
And they don't understand how this process undermines society as a whole, so they look at the melting social glue and wonder why nobody gives a fuck about each other anymore.
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 02:05 am (UTC)Think about how most people are "taught" to "apologize." It usually goes like this:
Parent: "Say you're sorry."
Kid: "But I'm NOT sorry!"
Parent: "That's rude. Say it anyway."
Kid: "But YESTERDAY you told me not to LIE!"
Parent: "It's not a lie, it's etiquette. Say you're sorry or you're grounded for a week."
Kid: "Fine, whatever, I'm sorry."
Which is insulting to both the speaker and the listener. It has miserable associations, so people avoid it. Who wants to do something that makes them feel dirty?
Most people learn that an apology is a lie you tell to make people leave you the fuck alone. Therefore, if they are not forced into it or otherwise able to see immediate consequences for not saying it, they don't say it. What they feel when they think of apologies is not remorse but resentment.
So they often don't learn how to identify mistakes; how to identify feelings like shame, guilt, remorse, or regret; how to figure out what kind of apology someone might really want to hear; how to repair the damage to a relationship via practical amends; or what kind of harm can be done by fake apologies.
Saying you're sorry is a statement of emotion, which can be true or false. Saying "I apologize" is a performative; the word is the action, and not a description of feeling but a social activity. The latter is useful in situations where formal action is required but the emotion may be absent.
Thing is, a lot of what makes people ask for an apology isn't suited to one at all. It's a difference of advantage. You say you're sorry for a mistake or an accident. That means, if you had it to do over, you wouldn't do the same thing. But there are all kinds of things which piss off other people that you would do again; you made a decision to your advantage against theirs, and you stand by it. That should not mean lying to the other people in your life. You should just admit that you did something which annoyed them, so they know if the situation comes up again, you'll do the same thing and they won't be shocked by it. People often hate this kind of honesty; they'd rather the false apology, but they always bitch later when the action is repeated.
Furthermore, today's litigious society trains people not to apologize, because it is taken as an admission of guilt and used to punish people. So of course they learn never to admit they've done anything wrong; it's not just unpleasant, it can be dangerous. Since the practical and social needs to identify and redress wrongdoing have not gone away, however, the results are ruinous.
Know yourself. Know your decision-making process. Know whether you meant or did not mean what you did, and would or would not do it again. You can regret upsetting someone without changing your stance, and perhaps think of something to compensate them for the fact that your interests conflicted with theirs. You don't have to be a dick about conflicts; they happen all the time. But lying about it won't make it any better, nevermind what adults frequently say to children.
You know damn well that a fake, pressured apology is not the real thing and it often makes people feel worse instead of better. Tell people that an apology is just "what you say" and they wind up missing some very real and important skills.
If you know you've fucked up but your only mental entry for "apology" is FAKE then you probably have no idea how to fix a real problem that you genuinely feel sorry for. It's likely to be another round of "I'm sorry." "Well that doesn't make me feel any better." "But I SAID I was sorry!" It's ineffective. It's a mess.
I prefer honesty. If someone isn't sorry for inconveniencing me, I want to know that so I can decide how to interact with them in the future. If I messed up, I'll admit it and offer to make up for it. But those are skills I learned later in life, many of them from people who don't even live in this universe, after a lot of well-meaning but extremely bad advice from most of the people around me.
There is very little good instruction on relationship repair. Consequently, most people are running bad tape on this topic, and it creates the kind of situation you're complaining about.
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 03:19 am (UTC)I'm only talking about people within my own subcultures growing up, or in my twenties and thirties, et cetera. That's a pretty wild and wacky list, but it IS limited, especially by the fact that my second-language skills are laughably near zero. The people in my neighborhood, which is very ethnically mixed, ARE about our family's income level, which makes for a very stark kind of uniformity, too.
The one thing that's consistent even across different ethnic groups is that I've found women have often been taught SPECIFICALLY not just HOW to apologize, but to do so IMMEDIATELY, often before deciding /if/ there's any fault or upset or problem. Akin to, "I'm sorry, your car lights are on and you left two of the doors wide open." The tone isn't "I'm sorry for interrupting you," it specifically seems to convey FAULT, not just a politely-phrased interruption.
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 04:57 am (UTC)I've seen the problem of not knowing how to apologize across a wide range of people, but increasingly so the younger they get, as those skills are not being transmitted as well as they used to. Among older people, it tends to be a problem of privileged individuals: rich straight white Christian men in particular. The more dominant society allows them to be, the more entitled they feel.
Many people feel that they should never have to apologize to anyone they outrank, and that everyone below them should have to apologize to them. But a real leader is polite to everyone.
>> The one thing that's consistent even across different ethnic groups is that I've found women have often been taught SPECIFICALLY not just HOW to apologize, but to do so IMMEDIATELY, often before deciding /if/ there's any fault or upset or problem. <<
That's an effect of belonging to a disadvantaged group. It's not universal among women -- you don't see it in matriarchal cultures, for instance -- but it's very widespread. Same thing can happen with poor people, who are often trained to grovel.
This is one of the major sticking points for me. I can turn from stubborn to truculent to downright vicious very quickly if ordered to apologize for something that is not my fault, just for belonging to a group that someone thinks is beneath them. I will grab the speaker's nearest sacred cow and butcher the screaming beast with my claymore. And I can do a LOT of social damage very quickly.
Women are trained to take on fault that isn't theirs and deny credit that is. And then people wonder why there's a pervasive problem with imposter syndrome, anxiety, depression, etc. Well hey, it's because you built a society that makes people hate and doubt themselves! And you call them bitches if they don't.
Yeah, no, fuck that noise. I'll do my own bookkeeping on skill and fault.
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 05:08 am (UTC)I know for a FACT that, /because/ I sat down and thought about how I wanted to raise this not-yet-here-little-human, I set out to have ONE set of rules regardless of gender. You kick at the limitations that become horribly, invasively, obnoxiously VISIBLE for long enough when doing that, and you get to the "talk to the hand" stage of social interactions pretty quickly as a self-protective measure.
Now, I'm just really getting to ENJOY "I don't buy into your crap, peddle it someplace else." as a DEFAULT mode for stuff that used to make me climb the WALLS. (Fortunately, figurative climbing of figurative walls. Spidey I am not.)
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 05:26 am (UTC)Well, yeah, if you have to start from scratch it can take decades to figure out that stuff.
Me, I had ulterior information. It's much harder to snow someone who has access to other cultures, even if those aren't in the same world as the surrounding one. It may have taken me a while to assemble a patch for a major missing function in an area that's not my best, but I had no difficulty recognizing the bullshit immediately. That alone put me ahead of almost everyone else.
>> I set out to have ONE set of rules regardless of gender. <<
Good plan. That's how I go. I've said to people of widely varied ages, "You are not going to sit there doing nothing and let all the female-bodied people clean up. Get in here and do your fair share of the work." (Or conversely, pushing women to help the guys.) Your sex chromosomes are not a free pass.