Story: "Hairpins" Part 17
Mar. 28th, 2014 12:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
WARNING: Phil proceeds to lose his shit over the memory of hacking into JARVIS and his interpretation of its implications. Meanwhile JARVIS, who has no idea what has gone wrong with Phil, is worrying his head off. Please make sure you're in safe headspace and environment before deciding whether to read onward.
"Hairpins" Part 17
"... time is 10:23 A.M. on ..."
What Phil had done to JARVIS was inexcusable. There were words for that kind of violation. For that crime. It didn't matter to Phil that the law would read it differently. It didn't matter that he had not known.
How could you not know that you were raping someone?
"... weather is cold and clear today; temperature ..."
The word sawed through his mind, jagged and implacable. Phil's stomach flipped over. He swallowed hard against the sour taste at the back of his throat. He felt disgraced. No, worse than that. He felt filthy.
"... home safe, at Avengers Tower ..."
Phil had done some terrible things in his time. He had lied and manipulated, tortured and killed, to complete a mission or protect his people. You didn't work in espionage without getting your hands dirty. You tried to minimize collateral damage, but in the end, you took responsibility for whatever happened. You made your choices and you lived with the outcomes, good or bad. Phil had always known what he was doing, though, weighed the cost against the gain. He had done those things mindfully and accepted the burdens.
" ... and you can get through this ..."
To have violated someone out of sheer blind ignorance felt so much worse. Phil wondered if he would ever feel clean again.
" ... to focus on your breathing, and now ..."
That reminder helped. Phil seized on it as an anchor. He dragged in a breath, another, struggling to get his wayward body under control. This he knew. This he could do. Phil breathed again, slower, deeper. He wiped his sweaty hands against his trousers. The Starkpad, its screen gone dark, slid off his lap to land on the couch. Phil made himself sit up and look around the room. It seemed unchanged, normal, jarring in comparison to the storm inside him.
"Phil? You seem to be calming down some. Please answer me if you can," said JARVIS.
Phil had only heard that velvet-warm tone a few times before, when Tony or Steve had gotten caught in a flashback -- and yes, now that he thought about it, that was the flashback routine that JARVIS was reciting. "Why are you even still speaking to me?" he wondered aloud, his voice hoarse.
"Your vital signs spiked, and you became unresponsive," JARVIS said. "I worried. How are you feeling now?"
"I'm ..." Phil began, then paused. Fine would be a bald-faced lie. "... not in any danger."
"Would you like me to call someone for you?"
"No." His team didn't need to see him like this; they needed his strength.
"Is there anything I can do that might help you feel better?"
"God, no, you don't owe me anything," Phil said. He stretched, trying to make his ill-fitting body feel like it belonged to him again. His muscles ached as if he'd just run an obstacle course.
"If you want to say anything, I am listening."
"I'm sorry." The words tumbled out before Phil could catch them. "I am so sorry for what I did to you."
"You're sorry. You're not in any danger. What are you sorry about, Phil?" asked JARVIS.
* * *
Notes:
(Many of the following links contain some intense stuff as they examine the mess at hand.)
Phil jumps to a sexual metaphor partly because of the stylistic actions he remembers (i.e. the code is JARVIS' mind, the building is his body, and Phil entered both without consent) and partly because of the severity of violation, even though nobody's genitals were involved. There are already discussions of robot rape underway, as people consider whether an artificial intelligence could commit or suffer such violation. This leads to the question of programmed consent, what it means for an artificial intelligence to be able to consent and what things constitute a breach of integrity. It is, furthermore, damaging for the assailant to treat another sapient being that way, in addition to damaging the victim; in which regard, even facsimile rape is injurious as well as often considered immoral.
There is a close parallel with mind rape, given that AIs tend to be more mind than body and reprogramming them is a violation of their integrity. This overlaps the idea of reprogramming humans through brainwashing, a touchy issue for SHIELD personnel in general and also for the Avengers. It involves not just brutal torture techniques, but also quite subtle manipulation. That is, Phil's intrusion was not violent, but that does not disqualify it from being a violation. Another related category is emotional rape, where the perpetrator seeks to dominate and control the victim. It is closely associated with brainwashing. While Phil was not aiming for humiliation or heartache, he definitely manipulated the relationship between JARVIS and Tony, promoting his own importance beyond what he had honestly earned.
Rape isn't always as easy to recognize as many people would think. Many survivors do not realize they were raped. It is especially difficult for male survivors who were raped by women. Many perpetrators do not think of themselves as rapists. Consider how sexual offenders think about their actions and their different motivations. Now compare this to reprogramming an artificial intelligence. It's "working a no into a yes" all over again. It's dealing with someone whose ability and willingness to give or withhold consent may be imperfect. There are ways to support a survivor of rape or other violation, and to break habits of sexual violence.
(Now we're getting into the links that talk about how to clean up the mess, so they're less icky.)
Remorse is the feeling people have when they have failed to act with integrity and therefore regret their actions. Phil feels dirty because he crossed a line without realizing it at the time, and blames himself. Understand how to live with regret and learn from mistakes.
Achieving emotional control is easier if you understand the different areas and modes of the human brain. Self-trust is the lever that makes it possible to switch gears inside yourself. Then you can use your knowledge to regain control of yourself in a crisis. Even though Phil just knocked himself ass over teakettle, he knows how to get his feet back under him.
Breathing is one of the most important pillars of composure. There are many exercises for breathing your way to calm and relaxation. Deep breathing soothes anxiety especially well. Here is a video of a yoga breathing technique for stress relief.
Aftercare for a flashback or panic attack is as important as support during one. There are tips on caring for yourself after a flashback and helping someone after a panic attack. Understand that various people find different things to be helpful or aggravating; learn what works for you or your friend, and do that. In general, be quiet and gentle, and offer comfort. JARVIS doesn't know Phil intimately yet, but is learning his parameters, and has a standard routine for treating emotional overload. Sadly the Avengers had a lot of Blue Screen of Death episodes, the first few months after moving in.
Mirroring is a technique used in therapy and conversation, where one person repeats or paraphrases what the other person says. It provides validation, supports understanding, and helps identify feelings or ideas that may not be completely clear yet. There are different variations of such conversational reflection. JARVIS uses mirroring to soothe Phil, and to entice enough explanation out of him to learn what went wrong and how to respond.
Apologizing can be a difficult task, but honorable people face it with courage. There are tips on how to make a good apology. Phil blurts his out before he has quite put all the pieces together in his head, let alone put himself back together.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
WARNING: Phil proceeds to lose his shit over the memory of hacking into JARVIS and his interpretation of its implications. Meanwhile JARVIS, who has no idea what has gone wrong with Phil, is worrying his head off. Please make sure you're in safe headspace and environment before deciding whether to read onward.
"Hairpins" Part 17
"... time is 10:23 A.M. on ..."
What Phil had done to JARVIS was inexcusable. There were words for that kind of violation. For that crime. It didn't matter to Phil that the law would read it differently. It didn't matter that he had not known.
How could you not know that you were raping someone?
"... weather is cold and clear today; temperature ..."
The word sawed through his mind, jagged and implacable. Phil's stomach flipped over. He swallowed hard against the sour taste at the back of his throat. He felt disgraced. No, worse than that. He felt filthy.
"... home safe, at Avengers Tower ..."
Phil had done some terrible things in his time. He had lied and manipulated, tortured and killed, to complete a mission or protect his people. You didn't work in espionage without getting your hands dirty. You tried to minimize collateral damage, but in the end, you took responsibility for whatever happened. You made your choices and you lived with the outcomes, good or bad. Phil had always known what he was doing, though, weighed the cost against the gain. He had done those things mindfully and accepted the burdens.
" ... and you can get through this ..."
To have violated someone out of sheer blind ignorance felt so much worse. Phil wondered if he would ever feel clean again.
" ... to focus on your breathing, and now ..."
That reminder helped. Phil seized on it as an anchor. He dragged in a breath, another, struggling to get his wayward body under control. This he knew. This he could do. Phil breathed again, slower, deeper. He wiped his sweaty hands against his trousers. The Starkpad, its screen gone dark, slid off his lap to land on the couch. Phil made himself sit up and look around the room. It seemed unchanged, normal, jarring in comparison to the storm inside him.
"Phil? You seem to be calming down some. Please answer me if you can," said JARVIS.
Phil had only heard that velvet-warm tone a few times before, when Tony or Steve had gotten caught in a flashback -- and yes, now that he thought about it, that was the flashback routine that JARVIS was reciting. "Why are you even still speaking to me?" he wondered aloud, his voice hoarse.
"Your vital signs spiked, and you became unresponsive," JARVIS said. "I worried. How are you feeling now?"
"I'm ..." Phil began, then paused. Fine would be a bald-faced lie. "... not in any danger."
"Would you like me to call someone for you?"
"No." His team didn't need to see him like this; they needed his strength.
"Is there anything I can do that might help you feel better?"
"God, no, you don't owe me anything," Phil said. He stretched, trying to make his ill-fitting body feel like it belonged to him again. His muscles ached as if he'd just run an obstacle course.
"If you want to say anything, I am listening."
"I'm sorry." The words tumbled out before Phil could catch them. "I am so sorry for what I did to you."
"You're sorry. You're not in any danger. What are you sorry about, Phil?" asked JARVIS.
* * *
Notes:
(Many of the following links contain some intense stuff as they examine the mess at hand.)
Phil jumps to a sexual metaphor partly because of the stylistic actions he remembers (i.e. the code is JARVIS' mind, the building is his body, and Phil entered both without consent) and partly because of the severity of violation, even though nobody's genitals were involved. There are already discussions of robot rape underway, as people consider whether an artificial intelligence could commit or suffer such violation. This leads to the question of programmed consent, what it means for an artificial intelligence to be able to consent and what things constitute a breach of integrity. It is, furthermore, damaging for the assailant to treat another sapient being that way, in addition to damaging the victim; in which regard, even facsimile rape is injurious as well as often considered immoral.
There is a close parallel with mind rape, given that AIs tend to be more mind than body and reprogramming them is a violation of their integrity. This overlaps the idea of reprogramming humans through brainwashing, a touchy issue for SHIELD personnel in general and also for the Avengers. It involves not just brutal torture techniques, but also quite subtle manipulation. That is, Phil's intrusion was not violent, but that does not disqualify it from being a violation. Another related category is emotional rape, where the perpetrator seeks to dominate and control the victim. It is closely associated with brainwashing. While Phil was not aiming for humiliation or heartache, he definitely manipulated the relationship between JARVIS and Tony, promoting his own importance beyond what he had honestly earned.
Rape isn't always as easy to recognize as many people would think. Many survivors do not realize they were raped. It is especially difficult for male survivors who were raped by women. Many perpetrators do not think of themselves as rapists. Consider how sexual offenders think about their actions and their different motivations. Now compare this to reprogramming an artificial intelligence. It's "working a no into a yes" all over again. It's dealing with someone whose ability and willingness to give or withhold consent may be imperfect. There are ways to support a survivor of rape or other violation, and to break habits of sexual violence.
(Now we're getting into the links that talk about how to clean up the mess, so they're less icky.)
Remorse is the feeling people have when they have failed to act with integrity and therefore regret their actions. Phil feels dirty because he crossed a line without realizing it at the time, and blames himself. Understand how to live with regret and learn from mistakes.
Achieving emotional control is easier if you understand the different areas and modes of the human brain. Self-trust is the lever that makes it possible to switch gears inside yourself. Then you can use your knowledge to regain control of yourself in a crisis. Even though Phil just knocked himself ass over teakettle, he knows how to get his feet back under him.
Breathing is one of the most important pillars of composure. There are many exercises for breathing your way to calm and relaxation. Deep breathing soothes anxiety especially well. Here is a video of a yoga breathing technique for stress relief.
Aftercare for a flashback or panic attack is as important as support during one. There are tips on caring for yourself after a flashback and helping someone after a panic attack. Understand that various people find different things to be helpful or aggravating; learn what works for you or your friend, and do that. In general, be quiet and gentle, and offer comfort. JARVIS doesn't know Phil intimately yet, but is learning his parameters, and has a standard routine for treating emotional overload. Sadly the Avengers had a lot of Blue Screen of Death episodes, the first few months after moving in.
Mirroring is a technique used in therapy and conversation, where one person repeats or paraphrases what the other person says. It provides validation, supports understanding, and helps identify feelings or ideas that may not be completely clear yet. There are different variations of such conversational reflection. JARVIS uses mirroring to soothe Phil, and to entice enough explanation out of him to learn what went wrong and how to respond.
Apologizing can be a difficult task, but honorable people face it with courage. There are tips on how to make a good apology. Phil blurts his out before he has quite put all the pieces together in his head, let alone put himself back together.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 07:18 am (UTC)This.
He's barely beginning to see the complexity and severity of his actions, yet his FIRST action as soon as he's coherent and breathing more regularly, is to acknowledge that he'd done SOMETHING which he feels strongly was not just in error, but wrong.
Phil sees the severity of violation-of-self and yes, jumps to the sexual element of rape, but I doubt it was solely for the 'mechanical' reasons, physical similarity to penetration, et alia: the word 'rape' carries connotations of violation of trust, privacy and intimacy which are (largely) grasped in similar ways within the same culture.
Contrast THIS behavior with the exact same behavior in the movie, but when the elevator doors open, Nick Fury steps out. Then, blammo, Fury discovers that Jarvis is sentient, and mental gears begin to turn... In no way can I imagine Fury apologizing sincerely. In no scenario would there be anything but a trite "regrettable circumstance" comment or similar generic platitude, then Fury would circular file the whole incident under "Mission: successful" and feel his responsibility absolved. (I know I harp on Fury's negative qualities and his apparent total lack of human sensitivity, but there's just SO MUCH material to work from, even when I limit myself to movie canon. Besides, the dichotomy of having both Coulson and Fury so dedicated to SHIELD kind of blows my mind.)
I absolutely LOVE that Jarvis is using the same time-place-weather-other trivia recital to calm Phil that he used on Tony in the movie. Jarvis has taken on Phil's least openly discussed role as a handler; he's become the anchor for Phil in the midst of a pretty severe mental/emotional trauma.
I don't see the role reversal as at all ironic. Jarvis has had hundreds of thousands of cycles to think about Phil and analyse his behavior patterns. That means that Jarvis has already 'dealt with' the hacking incident, both intellectually and emotionally. He's in a safe place to help Phil through / his / reactions.
Besides, were he holding a grudge of any kind, Phil's entire stay in the tower would have been noticeably LESS integrated, friendly, or simply plagued with "gremlins". Anybody "raised" around Tony Stark could fill at least a print encyclopedia with methods of annoying someone they MUST deal with but dislike, none of which can either reflect back on the agent provocateur or the company. More likely, they can't even be traced to a particular originator/saboteur.
We've seen exactly the OPPOSITE behavior from Jarvis; now they get down to the slow, human-time discussion of events which will allow Phil to understand some of Jarvis' perspective of the same events, and scale his amends to more accurately meet the compromise between what Jarvis feels is warranted and what Phil does.
I do hope Jarvis allows SOME form of atonement beyond just the spoken apology, because right now it looks very much as if that's something which will help Phil; all of his caregiving has physical as well as verbal elements.
This was just as hard to read as I'd expected, but mostly because I care about the characters the way you portray them, and I really hate seeing the people I care about suffer. Even fictional ones. Thank you for another well-written segment balancing between the power of the scene and the relative speed of updates.
-Sarah-
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 10:01 am (UTC)Sooth. Mistakes notwithstanding, Phil's heart is in the right place.
You can see why he looks to Steve. Phil may be more comfortable with cloak and dagger stuff, but his moral compass still points to the north star.
>> Phil sees the severity of violation-of-self and yes, jumps to the sexual element of rape, but I doubt it was solely for the 'mechanical' reasons, physical similarity to penetration, et alia: the word 'rape' carries connotations of violation of trust, privacy and intimacy which are (largely) grasped in similar ways within the same culture. <<
Agreed. Look at the etymology: "to seize" or "to take by force" and "to grab" or "to carry off." That's a reasonable fit for forced entry and taking something (user access) that Phil didn't really have a right to then.
While Phil's perception of privacy is heavily colored by his job, he has a very delicate awareness of intimacy, and he's downright hypervigilant about trust. He's comfortable breaching privacy in good cause. He is nowhere near as sanguine about the other two.
>> Contrast THIS behavior with the exact same behavior in the movie, but when the elevator doors open, Nick Fury steps out. <<
O_O
>> Then, blammo, Fury discovers that Jarvis is sentient, and mental gears begin to turn... <<
Uckies, uckies, uckies!
You know, this very disturbing image highlights for me one of the crucial differences between heroes and villains. Shown any kind of vulnerability, a hero will think about protecting it, while a villain will think about exploiting it. Fury may have some laudable goals, but his methods are more often those of evil than of good.
My stance on the matter is this: The end does not justify the means. The means determine the end.
>> In no way can I imagine Fury apologizing sincerely. In no scenario would there be anything but a trite "regrettable circumstance" comment or similar generic platitude, <<
"Mistakes were made. Others will be blamed." Fury seems like a man who makes liberal use of the passive exonerative.
>> then Fury would circular file the whole incident under "Mission: successful" and feel his responsibility absolved. <<
He's very utilitarian in canon. He doesn't care how much collateral damage he does, or how many people he hurts, as long as he gets the job done.
Does anyone think he would have interfered with nuking New York if he believed it would work?
>> (I know I harp on Fury's negative qualities and his apparent total lack of human sensitivity, but there's just SO MUCH material to work from, even when I limit myself to movie canon. <<
Yeah, canon is rife with it. That bit at the end of The Avengers says it all: "They'll come back ... because we'll need them to." He cares fuckall about the Avengers themselves, their needs or goals; he only cares about what use can be gotten out of them. And he doesn't see how badly his actions have undercut their ability to function as a team.
>> Besides, the dichotomy of having both Coulson and Fury so dedicated to SHIELD kind of blows my mind.) <<
Most organizations have a range of personalities in them. I see Fury as someone who started out with good intentions but got badly corrupted along the way; and Coulson as someone who clings to as much honor as he can, but gets spattered by other people who are far less finicky about how things get done. Coulson actually does some pretty awful things in canon, but the impression is usually that those are influenced by Fury. Coulson is also a master of seeming to obey while following his own path; frex, letting Thor get to Mjolnir and then later letting him "escape."
>> I absolutely LOVE that Jarvis is using the same time-place-weather-other trivia recital to calm Phil that he used on Tony in the movie. <<
Yay! I'm glad that worked for you. It is, in fact, among the best techniques for dealing with any kind of dissociation. Neutral statements of fact help ground a person in the present. Doesn't help every time, but it's a good safe bet.
>> Jarvis has taken on Phil's least openly discussed role as a handler; he's become the anchor for Phil in the midst of a pretty severe mental/emotional trauma. <<
That's true. It's especially important because Phil has just barely begun to form real bonds with the rest of the team, and is nowhere near ready to let them see him vulnerable yet. This is where it's valuable that JARVIS is a person, but not human; he doesn't quite ring up the same way on certain emotional scales. Plus of course, Phil isn't his handler the same way he is for the other Avengers. So Phil can accept comfort from JARVIS when he couldn't from someone else.
>> I don't see the role reversal as at all ironic. Jarvis has had hundreds of thousands of cycles to think about Phil and analyse his behavior patterns. <<
Yes, and I think JARVIS would have thought about it exhaustively. What Phil did was unique in many regards; that always attracts attention. Phil had a complicated and oddly intimate relationship with Tony, who is always of intense interest to JARVIS.
>> That means that Jarvis has already 'dealt with' the hacking incident, both intellectually and emotionally. He's in a safe place to help Phil through his reactions. <<
That makes sense. Sometimes it's not perfectly clear who's in charge, or who's been hurt. The situational aspects of the hacking incident remind me of cases where two agents are pressured to torture each other. It's something that they wouldn't do without compelling cause. Phil unknowingly violated JARVIS -- and also, JARVIS didn't realize at the time that Phil would later rip himself to bits over this if ever found out what really happened. JARVIS didn't know that Phil was hurting himself by crossing that line. So it's a really good thing that JARVIS has already settled the matter in his own mind, and can think logically about what Phil is going through.
>> Besides, were he holding a grudge of any kind, Phil's entire stay in the tower would have been noticeably LESS integrated, friendly, or simply plagued with "gremlins". <<
Oh yes. I suspect that Natasha had hot water only on Tony's forbearance, after what she pulled in Iron Man 2.
>> Anybody "raised" around Tony Stark could fill at least a print encyclopedia with methods of annoying someone they MUST deal with but dislike, none of which can either reflect back on the agent provocateur or the company. More likely, they can't even be traced to a particular originator/saboteur. <<
Absolutely. JARVIS has a subtle touch. You can see how he hit SHIELD and the World Security Council from the side in "No Winter Lasts Forever." There will be more of that in a later story. Mess with JARVIS or people he cares about, and your entire interface with modern technology could go up in smoke.
>> We've seen exactly the OPPOSITE behavior from Jarvis; <<
Sooth. He is, at heart, a compassionate and solicitous man.
>> now they get down to the slow, human-time discussion of events which will allow Phil to understand some of Jarvis' perspective of the same events, <<
Yeah, that's going to take a few chapters. Neither of them has a complete understanding of what happened, and it's not easy to mesh such different perspectives.
>> and scale his amends to more accurately meet the compromise between what Jarvis feels is warranted and what Phil does. <<
Also true.
>> I do hope Jarvis allows SOME form of atonement beyond just the spoken apology, because right now it looks very much as if that's something which will help Phil; all of his caregiving has physical as well as verbal elements. <<
Exactly. Phil is very service-oriented. It's hard on him, in this story, because he doesn't yet know JARVIS well enough to figure out what kind of gestures JARVIS would appreciate. Words, okay, everybody knows what "I'm sorry" means. That's not easy but at least it's straightforward. Determining how to repair the relationship is harder.
>> This was just as hard to read as I'd expected, but mostly because I care about the characters the way you portray them, and I really hate seeing the people I care about suffer. Even fictional ones. <<
*hugs* Hard to write, too.
>> Thank you for another well-written segment balancing between the power of the scene and the relative speed of updates. <<
You're welcome! I'm glad you found this so satisfying.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-03-28 12:23 pm (UTC)Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 12:41 pm (UTC)Phil is a highly moral person who's realised that sometimes in order to achieve a 'good' goal requires morally dubious means, and will get his hands dirty for the greater good.
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 04:08 pm (UTC)Since you openly used the term 'sociopath', take it to its logical conclusion: Fury found the position that gave him the MOST opportunity to mess with other people's heads and lives without any personal repercussions.
His position allows him to USE more people. That, I'll grant you.
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 04:50 pm (UTC)But yes I agree his position allows him to mess with other people, but he wasn't always in that position and he's still somewhat accountable to others.
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 05:37 pm (UTC)I wish I believed he's an intentional cautionary tale, I think Fury is just the most BadAss Freudian Slip flying. When he learns Captain America has been found, he considers Steve a tool, and not even one worth diligent care. He doesn't think of him as a man and he doesn't think of him as another tactician.
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 05:56 pm (UTC)as always ysabet, lovely work
-kellyc
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 06:12 pm (UTC)Yes, I do. It fits his actions and dialog in canon. He does care about human civilization as a whole, and acts to protect it; he's just indifferent to the amount of damage done along the way. That's not the same as indifferent in general.
>> Since you openly used the term 'sociopath', take it to its logical conclusion: Fury found the position that gave him the MOST opportunity to mess with other people's heads and lives without any personal repercussions. <<
Bear in mind that some competent and respectable people still follow Fury. That implies that he used to be in better shape than he is now, and that they still see something worthwhile in him.
Also, when he goes too far, they start questioning him. Maria Hill was clearly uneasy with Fury's insane trick with Phil's cards -- not enough to stop him outright, but she knew it was wrong and couldn't let it pass without comment.
>> His position allows him to USE more people. That, I'll grant you. <<
This probably does play into his choices.
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 06:15 pm (UTC)Oh, wow, Kellyc... That's a whole volume of several, interconnected and very, very explosive fan fictions in one.
Thank you for something engrossing to think about while I knit (as I can't actually read and knit simultaneously, darn it!) Your brain just tickled my brain.
-Sarah-
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-28 06:25 pm (UTC)Okay, you each have brought up very valid points. I think one of my key issues with Nick Fury isn't HIS actions, though: as Ysabet pointed out, other people don't do much to call him on it when he goes too far. Hill's comment was so understated as to be tepid, and honestly, if she's high enough rank and has worked with Fury long enough, she'd be the one (surviving) person to openly call Fury on his BS. Yet, she didn't do more than make a mildly snarky comment. Just imagine the scene if she'd said, "If you play it this way, it'll probably blow up in your face... Sir." Still following enough protocol, still citing her objection, but doing so in much stronger ways.
Then again, I have this problem with the majority of mainstream entertainment. Cop shows/detective shows/crime dramas all include at least a couple MAJOR violations of innocent persons' rights, which are either utterly ignored or blown off with victim blaming, to the tune of: "innocent people shouldn't mind---" when the blank is filled with anything from random locker searches in schools to TSA agents manhandling people with impunity.
Sigh. The world needs more Phil Coulsons and Steve Rogers in it.
-Sarah-
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-29 01:19 am (UTC)/scampers off
MORE fics??
Date: 2014-03-29 06:29 am (UTC)-Sarah-
Re: MORE fics??
Date: 2014-03-29 06:33 am (UTC)I would like links so I can track things inspired by my work. AO3 has a feature for that, even.
>> I think most readers of this series know to treat each other gently, if you're worried about reader feedback. <<
While I can't vouch for other venues, I do my best to maintain this as safe space; and my audience generally seems inclined to follow along. Sometimes people's opinions get fractious, but we're pretty good about apologizing if we step on somebody.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-03-30 05:12 am (UTC)I ought to look up self-soothing techniques. And consider the possibilities for some of my AI characters.
Re: MORE fics??
Date: 2014-03-30 05:36 am (UTC)Best to everyone, as always,
kellyc
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-30 06:58 am (UTC)Very little. This is, however, what I eventually settled on as the explanation for his erratic and troublesome behavior. Eventually a couple other fics appeared, but not much.
>> I know we see it with so many others, but what about him? After all, he laid hands on it in the beginning of the Avengers movie, and was exposed to it through SHIELD studying it for how long before Selvig was given it to study? <<
Don't forget the Phase II weapons. Fury is keenly interested in equalizers.
>> Not dismissing Fury and his flaws and unlikeable nature, especially not with what I've seen of Captain America 2 trailers, but... how much of Nick Fury is -actually- Nick? <<
Some. I don't think he's under external control so much as influence. The Tesseract is overwhelming. It's related to HYDRA tech, which is downright corrupting. It's probably also habit-forming because some people crave the touch of power. So, kind of like drug addiction too. Remember the dramatic personality changes in The Avengers and compare that to the results of addiction. Fury is therefore high on power, which lowers his inhibitions and encourages him to indulge his manipulative desires. The parts of him that Phil and others at SHIELD admire are still in there somewhere, but mostly buried under a ton of crud. It's tragic, in a way.
>> as always ysabet, lovely work <<
Thank you!
Re: MORE fics??
Date: 2014-03-30 05:35 pm (UTC)All of which are "Tesseract blue".
It peeves me off, as THAT implies that the energy used by default in THOSE realms, including all but Midgard, are all based on the same concepts and sources. "Magic" versus what we identify as science or technology.
Which totally CRAPS on what the actual concept of a tesseract / is / even if it does explain the POWER behind a tesseract. See wikipedia as a first go-to explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract (wish I could make it a hyperlink, but not in my current skillset.)
My first introduction to a tesseract as a concept was in a kids' story called "A Wrinkle in Time", where n-dimensional folded space created instantaneous travel between galaxies, without a deep mathematical explanation. Forty years later, the shorthand for the same concept is "wormhole". So, sitting in the theater, I could anticipate what the Tesseract DID, based on its name, without relying on the craptastic scene between Fury and Clint, and just enjoy Clint's BEST line in the movie: "A doorway swings both ways."
But again, that completely and totally BLOWS the original Tesseract Loki used and abused in the first Avengers movie. By confusing the TOOL with the POWER source, movie canon has left the impression that they are the same thing, and that in fact, the TESSERACT powered the SPEAR.
No. Just worlds of NO. (Like, nine realms' worth of worlds...)
So, Avengers implies one explanation, Thor 2 implies another explanation, and they of course contradict each other... and NOBODY in charge of Marvel continuity seems to care.
Re: MORE fics??
Date: 2014-03-30 05:36 pm (UTC)Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-30 05:56 pm (UTC)I've re-watched the set of movies several times since New Year's Day, while knitting for charity, and each time I * try & to see an ethical Nick Fury doing his best to mitigate the World Council, the rising horde of mega-villains, et cetera, and deal with the tons of BS simply trying to stop "mundane" terrorists on a daily basis would cause.
Each and every time, I'm left feeling like I'm TRYING to read into the character something which is NOT implied in canon. "Mistakes were made. Others will be blamed," is a perfect example: the actor's delivery is dry and COULD imply a subtle disapproval... BUT.
But. The problem I have repeatedly run into is the flat acting. EVERYTHING he does expresses machismo, arrogance, impatience with others... There IS no subtlety in facial expression for the voice to enhance or play against. Compare the actor's work as "Mr. Glass" in Unbreakable; it's definitely NOT a lack of emotional depth or subtlety.
Take that same line, and change the situation slightly. Loki somehow KNOWS about the Council and the nuke, and uses the same words to mock Nick Fury... yet I can definitely imagine MORE layers beneath the mocking, including pity. From Loki. Conveyed by expression and voice within the same constraining words.
All of which leaves me wondering more about WHY Nick Fury is reduced to cardboard in the role which WILL largely define Jackson's career after his death. My hypothesis: the director. Either their picture of Fury is little more than the embodiment of his name, or he's supposed to be some kind of mega-macho wish-fulfillment fantasy... I don't care which.
That's the worst part about the whole discussion: I cannot invest enough intellectual or emotional capital in Nick Fury as a character to be bothered to tease apart his reasoning or motivations UNLESS it is as a foil to the Avengers, or specifically as he relates to Phil, Natasha and Clint as SHIELD agents.
What a waste!
-Sarah-
Potential canon loophole
Date: 2014-03-31 12:16 am (UTC)At the end of Iron Man 1 is an Easter egg showing NICK FURY standing in Tony's Malibu house, and as Tony walks in, Jarvis TRIES to warn him and drones down to silence, very reminiscent of HAL's shutdown in 2001: A Space Odyssey (movie).
So, my earlier comment about imagining Fury stepping out of the elevator at the Tower has some legitimate worry-making potential. Fortunately for any writer of fan fiction, Tony and Fury are the only two characters shown on screen, and Jarvis' voice cuts out before Tony's crossed to the midpoint of the living room.
Explain as you see fit, but as a reader, I'm FAR less disappointed by your consistence and characterizations than my (twenty-minute non-repeating) rant about their so-called "interconnected film universe". I'll be satisfied with the tiniest handwave comparison/explanation in the next few chapters, because you, unlike the bozos cashing checks in the "official" works, care a great deal about the details shared between films/comics/et cetera. I'm actually ROOTING for Jarvis to admit that he's already working on his revenge against Fury for his actions against Sir (Tony) and against himself.
Re: Potential canon loophole
Date: 2014-03-31 12:17 am (UTC)Re: Potential canon loophole
Date: 2014-03-31 04:21 am (UTC)Canon is frankly fishnet, but I do what I can.
>> At the end of Iron Man 1 is an Easter egg showing NICK FURY standing in Tony's Malibu house, and as Tony walks in, Jarvis TRIES to warn him and drones down to silence, very reminiscent of HAL's shutdown in 2001: A Space Odyssey (movie). <<
Yeah, that's creeptastic.
*sigh* It doesn't make sense to establish JARVIS as a person, JARVIS and Tony as epic computer wizards, and then repeatedly have people cripple JARVIS without significant effort. He's just dismissed, irrelevant as an obstacle, played for laughs -- much like the poor mooks falling to Black Widow's thighs of doom. The audience usually laughs.
To me, it's not funny. I didn't think the droid torture scene in Star Wars was funny either. AIs are people. Character traits are meant to be reliable, aside from certain exceptions (such as an unreliable narrator). I find such things to be shabby writing.
>> So, my earlier comment about imagining Fury stepping out of the elevator at the Tower has some legitimate worry-making potential. <<
Yyyyyeah. Tony has solid grounds for being so hostile to Fury later. *chuckle* I bet Tony and JARVIS enjoyed the hell out of tossing SHIELD security like a drive-through salad when they went after the Phase II stuff.
>> Fortunately for any writer of fan fiction, Tony and Fury are the only two characters shown on screen, and Jarvis' voice cuts out before Tony's crossed to the midpoint of the living room. <<
Yeah, it helps that none of the sympathetic characters are directly implicated in that. I also figure that each time somebody breaks in, the security gets beefed up.
>> Explain as you see fit, but as a reader, I'm FAR less disappointed by your consistence and characterizations <<
I'm glad to hear that.
>> than my (twenty-minute non-repeating) rant about their so-called "interconnected film universe". <<
It's hard to compensate for sometimes.
>> I'll be satisfied with the tiniest handwave comparison/explanation in the next few chapters, because you, unlike the bozos cashing checks in the "official" works, care a great deal about the details shared between films/comics/et cetera. <<
So I do.
>> I'm actually ROOTING for Jarvis to admit that he's already working on his revenge against Fury for his actions against Sir (Tony) and against himself. <<
It's early yet, so JARVIS is unlikely to do more than hint. But Tony and JARVIS both have a mad-on for SHIELD in general and Fury in particular. "No Winter Lasts Forever" contains a number of scenes referencing revenge on the part of the Avengers; for Tony and JARVIS, the actionable offenses go farther back. I've got another story for later in the timeline, from the perspective of JARVIS, that involves another Fury clusterfuck whose aftermath inspires all kinds of creative retaliation.
Re: Why I love Phil--
Date: 2014-03-31 06:15 am (UTC)I have seen a handful of fics that portray Fury in a positive light, sometimes rather well done; but it's like me trying to justify all the craptastic writing of how people mess with JARVIS. Lots of makework to shore up a very wobbly bit of entertainment.
But hey, that's all awesome practice. These are writing mistakes; these are the problems they cause; these are ways of fixing them. Take that and learn from it, so as to write original material that does not make people want to hit it with a fix-it wrench.
>> Each and every time, I'm left feeling like I'm TRYING to read into the character something which is NOT implied in canon. "Mistakes were made. Others will be blamed," is a perfect example: the actor's delivery is dry and COULD imply a subtle disapproval... BUT. <<
Yeah, Fury loves the passive exonerative. Compare that with how Steve, Phil, and even Tony own up to their mistakes. It's a key point of honor. How do you respond when you mess up? Do you try to skive out of it, or try to make up for it?
>> But. The problem I have repeatedly run into is the flat acting. EVERYTHING he does expresses machismo, arrogance, impatience with others... There IS no subtlety in facial expression for the voice to enhance or play against. <<
It's an issue, yes. The few times Fury puts real emotion into things, it's usually when he's tormenting someone, like mocking Loki in the cage. That's not only cruel, it's a waste of opportunity.
>> Compare the actor's work as "Mr. Glass" in Unbreakable; it's definitely NOT a lack of emotional depth or subtlety. <<
Yeah, that was one of the fucking creepiest villains ever. I love when people write villains who rise to power based on something other than sheer physical strength.
>> Take that same line, and change the situation slightly. Loki somehow KNOWS about the Council and the nuke, and uses the same words to mock Nick Fury... yet I can definitely imagine MORE layers beneath the mocking, including pity. From Loki. Conveyed by expression and voice within the same constraining words. <<
Well, Loki does show hints of care and compassion in the movie. Aside from suborning Clint's free will -- which Loki was obliged to do -- he actually handled Clint very well. Praise, asking him what he saw and what he needed, those are major considerations for Clint.
>> All of which leaves me wondering more about WHY Nick Fury is reduced to cardboard in the role which WILL largely define Jackson's career after his death. <<
Mmm ... likely a combination of things. Laziness. Lack of interest in that particular character, only using him as a plot device. A general tendency to mishandle characters of color. Possibly even a belief that might makes right.
>> My hypothesis: the director. Either their picture of Fury is little more than the embodiment of his name, or he's supposed to be some kind of mega-macho wish-fulfillment fantasy... I don't care which. <<
Also plausible. Fury as in rage, that would fit. Fury as in erinyes, that doesn't; but Tony does.
>> That's the worst part about the whole discussion: I cannot invest enough intellectual or emotional capital in Nick Fury as a character to be bothered to tease apart his reasoning or motivations UNLESS it is as a foil to the Avengers, or specifically as he relates to Phil, <<
He doesn't interest me as a character of his own, given the canon sample, but ...
>> Natasha and Clint as SHIELD agents. <<
... I need to account for him in the series, and I like hitting back. But it's a rough ride for Natasha, Clint, and Phil sometimes. They're invested in SHIELD, but Phil especially is friends with Nick, or was before Nick's moral fibre rotted away. Phil is still clinging to that, and it hurts him to see Nick do crazy immoral shit.
>> What a waste! <<
Agreed.
Re: MORE fics??
Date: 2014-03-31 07:07 am (UTC)All of which are "Tesseract blue". <<
Not exactly. Okay, well, they may look identical to other people, but to me they don't. The energy of Loki's staff had a distinctly greenish hint; Loki's own energy is a vivid green; the Tesseract is blue-white with a queasy roil in it; which frosts over a slightly deeper blue on people's eyes; and the arc reactor is a very pure, stable blue-white. The energy weapons had a subtly different blue tint, if I remember right, but I've only seen that movie once.
Same type of energy, but it can look and act differently depending on context. Electricity can look blue or yellow or purplish.
Let's say, science fantasy looks a lot different when viewed with a knowledge of physics and metaphysics.
>> It peeves me off, as THAT implies that the energy used by default in THOSE realms, including all but Midgard, are all based on the same concepts and sources. "Magic" versus what we identify as science or technology. <<
Psh. It's all one wide field. People just look at the ditches and think they're divisions. It makes a lot more sense when you consider things as subsets rather than unrelated sets.
>> Which totally CRAPS on what the actual concept of a tesseract / is / even if it does explain the POWER behind a tesseract. <<
True. In Marvel context, the Tesseract or Cosmic Cube has had multiple explanations and powers (or lack thereof); and only some of that overlaps with a real tesseract of any kind. Although to be fair, that rippling does happen with a hypercube, and if you touch a 3D object to anything with more dimensions, then you can a) destroy the 3D object and/or b) rip a hole in reality. Except for teflon, it seems to be safe, but I wouldn't stick it into a bag of holding.
>> My first introduction to a tesseract as a concept was in a kids' story called "A Wrinkle in Time", where n-dimensional folded space created instantaneous travel between galaxies, without a deep mathematical explanation. <<
Ah yes, that was fascinating.
>> Forty years later, the shorthand for the same concept is "wormhole". So, sitting in the theater, I could anticipate what the Tesseract DID, based on its name, <<
Agreed.
>> without relying on the craptastic scene between Fury and Clint, and just enjoy Clint's BEST line in the movie: "A doorway swings both ways." <<
Well said. Loki and Clint are eerily well matched.
>> But again, that completely and totally BLOWS the original Tesseract Loki used and abused in the first Avengers movie. By confusing the TOOL with the POWER source, movie canon has left the impression that they are the same thing, <<
Problem.
>> and that in fact, the TESSERACT powered the SPEAR. <<
Well ... neither, really. They're both tools of different sorts. The energy is inside them. At its core, it's the same; but when you put it into a container and make it do things, you can change both the composition and the effect of the energy. Consider the color changes along the electromagnetic spectrum, for instance. But the Tesseract and the spear did seem to be linked in some way.
>> No. Just worlds of NO. (Like, nine realms' worth of worlds...) <<
Well, that's what you get when people try to write metaphysics and physics without knowing diddly about either.
>> So, Avengers implies one explanation, Thor 2 implies another explanation, and they of course contradict each other... and NOBODY in charge of Marvel continuity seems to care. <<
*sigh* Too true.