Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 36

[ysabetwordsmith]

This story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."

Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.

Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28, Part 29, Part 30, Part 31, Part 32, Part 33, Part 34, Part 35. Skip to Part 38, Part 39, Part 40, Part 41.


"Hide and Seek" Part 36


Phil draped the washcloth over Tony's knees and put both hands on his shoulders, feeling the taut muscles under his grip. Phil worked from the outside in, over the ball of the shoulders and up the slope above the collarbones. When Phil reached his neck, Tony groaned.

He carries tension higher than Bruce does, Phil realized.  I think they bend over their work differently.  Watching bodywork with Bruce and Clint had inspired Phil to look up some relevant resources. JARVIS had found him a handy reference to how some people could store stress in the body. Neck tension correlates to thoughts and emotions, along with unspoken truths. What are you thinking about, Tony? What are you not saying yet?

The knots went up the column of the neck to tangle at the base of the skull. Several hours of computer programming and emotional angst had left a lot of tracks behind. Working slowly, Phil kept light contact with Tony's back. This delicacy avoided aggravating the anxious muscles. It also coaxed Tony to push against Phil's hands, so that he sat up little by little.

When felt himself start to tip past vertical, Tony tensed again. "What ...?" he said.

"It's all right, Tony, I've got you. Lean back now," Phil said. Tony obeyed, opening his arms and letting go of his knees. Phil draped him against the foam cushion at the end of the tub. "That's better."

Tony's eyes fluttered closed. His knees finally subsided under the surface as he stretched out his legs, hitching a little as they passed over the nonslip treads. The water sloshed as he shifted position. A vivid blue glow lit the bubbles over his chest.

Ignoring that, Phil picked up Tony's right arm. He swept the washcloth up and down and around. As he moved the washcloth past the wrist, Tony's muscles tightened again.

Phil paused to see if he would relax, or take his arm back. Tony could be finicky about his hands. Phil took his time with the process of building rapport, pushing Tony gently forward and then letting him slide back, like rocking loose a car stuck in a ditch.

Arms express love and connection, holding on or letting go, Phil recalled. Hands deal with giving and receiving. They cramp up when we can't handle something. What are you so afraid to reach for? Whatever you need, Tony, we want you to have it.

"I know you've had a lot to deal with lately. This is hard for you, but you're doing very well," Phil said. "I'm proud of you for sticking with it and making an honest effort to work through things, instead of hiding from it all." Phil brushed his thumb lightly over the back of Tony's hand. After a few moments, the tension eased. Only then did he proceed.

Phil washed the fingers carefully. Tony had a different pattern of scars than Bruce did. The many nicks and scuffs over the knuckles probably came from shoving his hands into machines where they didn't quite fit. The back of the hand showed several pale chevrons, almost like corners. A variety of older marks dotted fingertips and palm, thin lines and dimples and glossy patches.

Like many people who worked with their hands, Tony had a thickened pad of muscle between thumb and forefinger. Phil kneaded it gently, searching for the place where his own hands tended to cramp up if he spent too long typing.  I wonder if the same thing happens to Tony, or if overwork lands somewhere else for him,  Phil mused. 

"Oh yeah, that's the spot," Tony groaned.

Phil squeezed a little harder, holding the pressure point until he felt some of the tension release. Tony gave a happy sigh. Phil moved on with the washing. He frowned over the fingernails. Dark crescents showed beneath them. "You've got a lot of motor oil under here," he murmured.

"Always do," Tony said. "Good luck getting it out."

Phil applied a generous amount of soap to the nail brush. He scuffed it very lightly over Tony's fingertips, content to remove the oil a layer at a time instead of trying to scrub it all out at once. Tony gave a soft hum of approval as Phil worked over the sensitive area.

Finally Phil got the fingernails clean. He put that arm back under water. Then he washed the other one. This time Tony did not tighten up, letting Phil move him however needed. Phil cupped his free hand under the elbow, taking care to support the weight until he finished.

Only then did Phil trail the washcloth across Tony's collarbones. Instantly the brown eyes blinked open. Tony tensed under the contact.

"You're safe," Phil assured him, keeping the strokes smooth and soft. "It's okay. You can let yourself unwind. Whatever you feel is fine."

"Yeah. Sure," Tony said.

The cloth moved lower over the ribs. Under his fingertips, Phil could feel the hard slick surface of the arc reactor. Then he shifted to the ridges and valleys of ravaged skin that covered most of Tony's chest. Gentle touches, full of care, traced over the textured lines. Some things could be spoken best in body language.

Muscular shoulders curled inward anyway. Tony couldn't always interpret body language. "I hate my body," he muttered.

"Well, it's changed a lot over time. That can feel disconcerting," Phil said, his hand covering a cluster of pink divots. "You have a good strong body, though. It's kept you alive."

"Sometimes I hate that too," Tony said. His muscles twitched and quivered under Phil's palm. The apprehension here was stronger and slower to fade.

"Relax," Phil said as he leaned forward. He rubbed soothing circles over Tony's front. "You have people to help you when life gets hard. You're not alone. I've got scars of my own, not all of them visible on the outside."

Tony's gaze flicked to Phil's chest. There was no mark left where Loki's spear had pierced the Life Model Decoy, but they both knew the invisible line of the wound. Espionage was risky work. Phil had his share of other souvenirs: the puckered craters of gunshots, the long white lines left by knives, the dotted ladders from sutures, the shiny patch of pink where a nylon strap had melted into his skin during a fire. A hair-thin ridge on his throat showed where one of Hawkeye's arrows had knocked away a gun pointed at Phil. He had wanted to keep that one, so he discreetly picked the scabs off the scratch until it healed into a subtle souvenir of salvation.

"Yeah," Tony said softly. "Some of the deepest ones aren't in the skin." He lifted a hand to cup over Phil's heart, leaving a damp print there. Then Tony settled deeper into the bath, finally letting all of his weight rest against the end of the tub. The bath pillow squeaked against the tile. His eyes drifted closed again.

* * *

Notes:

Relaxing the body helps to relax the mind and emotions. Acupressure uses pressure points along the nervous system to aid relaxation. There are points for the neck, arm, and hand.

Neck tension can come from physical (such as overwork or poor posture) and psychological (such as withholding statements or feeling undervalued) causes. Some people use tension as a type of emotional armor. Massage can help remove the armor and the pain it brings -- although the process may raise uncomfortable feelings.

Mammals have an innate fear of falling, especially falling backwards. In dreams, falling backwards can symbolize surrender to a trusted power. A trust fall is one example of an exercise intended to teach teamwork. Tony would be familiar with this, and has probably refused to do it more than once. It requires careful planning and discussion in order to succeed. Trust is not a game; done wrong, these exercises can alarm or hurt people. Facilitators need to choose activities mindfully and make sure everyone behaves in a responsible manner. Think about how long it took for Hulk to trust his teammates to catch him for a transformation and to carry Bruce home. Falling backwards is also a susceptibility test for hypnosis. For Tony, letting Phil lower him backwards requires considerable trust. This often shows up in massage therapy -- the instinct to protect oneself against tilting back is quite strong, even just a few inches above a padded surface.

Bath tub equipment includes pillows for comfort and appliques for safety.

Open body language includes uncrossing arms and stretching out legs. Therapists learn to read client body language and to present positive body language of their own. Opening the body language indicates receptivity or support. Notice how Tony's body language slowly opens with a "two steps forward, one step back" pattern of relaxing, tensing, then relaxing more over time.

Apprehension is a common barrier to effective massage. In sports medicine, an apprehension test searches for motions that cause anxiety or discomfort. Someone whose body hurts or who has been mistreated in the past often has trouble staying limp and will pull the vulnerable body part out of reach. The key to working past this in massage is to go slowly and gently, pausing until the client relaxes again -- or if they don't relax, avoid pushing farther and switch to somewhere else. Body language also comes up in discussions of sexual consent in which tensing up, pulling away, and not responding can all mean "no" or at least "not yet." Phil is walking a very delicate line to see if this technique will work or if they need to try something else, so every time Tony shows apprehension, Phil provides reassurance and waits to see if Tony will signal going forward or pulling back.

Hand cramps have various causes including overuse and unhealthy habits such as alcoholism. Hand massage can help, especially for pain due to computer use. Reflexology shows how the hands map the body in miniature, so rubbing them can help the whole body.

Some people may find this batch of links to be gross.
Different types of scars may result from different injuries. While scab-picking can qualify as self-harm, it also appears in scarification as body art. In this case, I tend to count Phil's action as body modification.

Coping with negative emotions involves a variety of techniques. Negative emotions have value, so it's important to embrace them rather than suppressing them. The key to the bath technique is that it pushes Tony just far enough to bring the negative emotions to the surface where he can reach them, without throwing him into a panic again, so that those feelings can be addressed and he can get unstuck. This is gradually relieving the tension created when Tony pulled himself too far open in the toolshed and then yanked shut during the garage fight. Transforming negative talk into positive talk helps make progress to better emotional states. Phil gives Tony some better alternatives to Tony's warped view of himself.


[To be continued in Part 37 ...]

Comments

the bath arc

[(Anonymous)]

These last few chapters are still percolating in my brain. I'm not sure how to feel about them entirely- I know Tony needs safe touch and someone has to get through to him that he matters, and that seems to be working, but my own issues are being projected upon my readership, and I'm trying not to let that happen but it is, so I'm still kind of waffling on how I feel, maybe it'll resolve itself once the story is done and I can read it all in one foul swoop to get a better handle on it. Sorry I can't be more communicative. I do know that it is a good chapter, and more of your work is always a good thing. Maybe because they're not purely little!Tony and Uncle Phil right now? The bathing with Hulk in the earlier story didn't get to me like this is, I guess because that was purely cleanliness related, with team involvement and not -as- vulnerable as this is feeling, especially emotionally? You do have the voice of the characters down, so very well, and their interactions. I wish this was the sort of stuff we'd see in the movies, but I somehow don't think that'll happen. Ah well, I'll just keep lurking in fanon. Thanks, as always.

Re: the bath arc

[chordatesrock]

Yeah, I feel like this scene feels like Phil is a bit extra concerned with getting Tony to be vulnerable with him. That pings my creepometer a little.

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Yeah, I feel like this scene feels like Phil is a bit extra concerned with getting Tony to be vulnerable with him. <<

That is part of the goal. The reason is that previous attempts to get Tony unstuck haven't helped. Phil is hoping that if he can get Tony to open up without slamming closed again, that will fix the problem of emotional cramping. Just leaving it to work out on its own (or not) isn't something either of them find really appealing.

>>That pings my creepometer a little.<<

I have known people who seriously got off on prying into others -- like starfish eating oysters. It can be very creepy. Thing is, people who do that really enjoy it. They tend to be manipulative and intrusive, and they aren't inclined to offer choices.

Now that I think on it, Obie may have done that with Tony. Yeesh.

Phil is hoping he can help Tony relax enough to work out the jam. He's not enjoying this the way he enjoys game night, though. It is not fun when someone you care about is miserable, especially if trying to fix the problem goes into awkward territory. But their experiences have left them with a lot of weird baggage. It's better to deal with that stuff honestly than try to stuff it in a mental closet.

Re: the bath arc

[(Anonymous)]

me too.

i trust ysabet will write good safe stories and won't hurt tony but it makes me want to curl up in a pillow fort and hide from this last few chapters.

also when there are non-science things mixed in (like "if you store tension in __bodypart__ it means __thing__") it makes me unhappy even though i know most people don't mind. it isn't true!

but i hope its ok in the end.

also ysabet i read a different story podfic this week called "moments lost in time" by "patheticfangirl" about avengers. its very dark and scary and it made me think it was like the opposite to this story although actually the canons don't have a single point of divergence. but yours has tony and steve and the avengers being healed more and that story is like the inverse. not at all like this, but interesting.

thank you for writing. and i have been really sick sorry i haven't commented lately.

from nonny75

Re: the bath arc

[(Anonymous)]

ps
also once when i was 14 i did a "self discovery" sort of camp and they had trust games.

one of them was a backwards trust fall and i got dropped. it was very upsetting :(

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

That's horrible! Really, I'd classify it as emotional abuse. It teaches people not to trust, that trusting others gets you hurt. That is a very destructive thing to do to anyone. Thanks for sharing, though.

Things like that are why I won't do most trust exercises, or ask other people to do them. They're honestly not appropriate for strangers or acquaintances. Trust is for people you know, who have some kind of vested interest in your welfare. There are things we do in community, working with trust, but those are either low-risk or introduced after people know and care about each other. Some people just aren't ready to be trustworthy yet, and it doesn't take much of that to do a lot of damage.

I was really glad to find some links this time that talked about how trust exercises can go wrong, the importance of building slowly and choosing the right methods, and if someone breaks the trust then you don't let them get away with it. Trust is not something that can be whistled up on demand, and pressuring people to behave as if they trust each other when they really don't is actively counterproductive. What they're learning is that people won't respect their boundaries, or will penalize them for trying to say no when they feel unsafe.

Trusting someone to guide you when your own instincts are going haywire is a downright harrowing experience. It really works only if you already have background together and thus reason to believe the other person will take good care of you. I've written some examples of it into this series, but you can see how long it's taken to get into the deeply vulnerable territory where these characters could truly harm each other. A scene like this, Tony is emotionally sensitive because of trying to get himself unstuck and because water is iffy for him. But if anything goes wrong, he has Phil there to help (and JARVIS, who has control over the faucets and drains for a reason). So it's better than being alone to try and deal with the issues.

Re: the bath arc

[(Anonymous)]

the whole camp was ... really weird.

also on my camp on the same day that happened i hurt my wrist by dislocating it. it relocated itself but it caused pain for the rest of the camp but the bloody adults who were there refused to believe that anything bad had happened because sometimes i would get so frustrated with myself that i would force myself to write with it anyway. because they could not see anything was wrong - nobody but me saw it dislocated - and because i /could/ push through the pain and use it, they were very unsympathetic and basically said i was making it up and it was no big deal.

on the other hand i got a lot of good stuff from the same camp, which made it a lot more confusing because it wasn't just a bad experience it was a very high amplitude experience with some really-good and some really-bad all mixed up together.

Re: the bath arc

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

This can be difficult, when good and bad are mixed. Your camp was a high-intensity experience, time constrained with separation from your place and people. Another example, a duration one, would be people that grew up in an environment--Clint may be conflicted about the good moments in his childhood, because they're knotted up with all sorts of Not Right At All. (NPR had a piece about a book collecting memories of Chicago's notorious public housing project, and their personality couldn't grasp that for the 'informants', that was their life, it was their whole childhood. Like the children in M*A*S*H*, the war and the sweets were all mixed together.)

I suspect that they had embraced a 'solution' and didn't grasp the awareness needed to harness properly the techniques. I did a real number on my legs through standing long-jump; it was an avoidable situation but perhaps outside of expectation. Many gyms don't have concrete slab floors once you're past elementary.

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> This can be difficult, when good and bad are mixed. <<

Too true.

>>Your camp was a high-intensity experience, time constrained with separation from your place and people.<<

Thinking about that with regard to the Avengers, I believe it's what makes Bruce, Steve, and Bucky so vulnerable at first: they're torn out of time and place, with nobody to hold onto. As they connect with new people and come to view the tower as home, though, they feel better and they are more able to face challenges without falling apart. For Tony and JARVIS, the difficulty is fitting other people into their intimate circle. For the rest of the team, it's just a matter of adapting to a new home and team; they're not as uprooted.

>> Another example, a duration one, would be people that grew up in an environment--Clint may be conflicted about the good moments in his childhood, because they're knotted up with all sorts of Not Right At All. <<

That is definitely true of Clint, in ways it isn't for the other abuse survivors. He loved Barney a great deal, and the betrayal from that corner was devastating. There are still moments when Clint misses Barney, and sometimes his parents. It's come up a few times when Clint talks with Phil about game night.

Tony had minimal attachment to his parents. There's a parallel with Obie though. Tony turned to him for support after losing his parents, and Obie abused that trust -- but Tony still misses him sometimes. Very mixed-up mess there.

>> (NPR had a piece about a book collecting memories of Chicago's notorious public housing project, and their personality couldn't grasp that for the 'informants', that was their life, it was their whole childhood. Like the children in M*A*S*H*, the war and the sweets were all mixed together.) <<

I think this is closest to Natasha, where she grew up in a very warlike setting. But Bruce survived a lot of violence too, and he's just as prone to thinking that it's normal for people to take advantage of him. Clint, Steve, and Bucky didn't have much to get by on.

>>I suspect that they had embraced a 'solution' and didn't grasp the awareness needed to harness properly the techniques. I did a real number on my legs through standing long-jump; it was an avoidable situation but perhaps outside of expectation. Many gyms don't have concrete slab floors once you're past elementary.<<

Part of the problem is that most people just aren't good at seeing implications. They can only get one or two steps out. It takes practice to develop the skill, even if you have a knack for it. Plus people are trained to a narrow focus, not interdisciplinary stuff. Sometimes you need to know sports, physics, and anatomy to prevent a problem before it occurs.

Other times people are just careless, and don't listen to warnings or complaints.

Re: the bath arc

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Bruce seems to have a pretty dire background from the comic books though I'm getting that 2nd and 3rd hand. It's Wayne territory (comparing only in the meta sense, what authorial voice thinks sells etc) and yet... Steve and Bucky are taking from the pages of Buck Rogers and Age of Sail castaways. Gilligan's Island... Bucky however has some differing issues, since Steve acted to result in things and Bucky had things happen.

All three once they find some stability though, they seem to be able to find their feet, Bucky the least so far since he's got lots of recent and ongoing Not There Yet as far as memory and so forth. Weebles all of them.

Bruce and Clint may be interesting to compare/contrast. Both are exceptional men and even if they weren't Avengers they'd be heroes. And that is the most damaging thing public policy has been up to, forgetting that Everyone is a potential hero/ine and should have the opportunity to unfurl that fact. Neither pity nor punitive sanctions are the full measure of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Narrow focus without grounding in a broad base tends to towers falling or unintended levers depending on the specifics.

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Bruce seems to have a pretty dire background from the comic books though I'm getting that 2nd and 3rd hand. <<

It seems to have gotten worse over the decades, although there were hints of that earlier and it spans many media. I think the Ruffalo presentation is spot on because of the body language and social mannerisms.

>> It's Wayne territory (comparing only in the meta sense, what authorial voice thinks sells etc) <<

I think Bruce Wayne came from a totally different place: a loving family that was torn apart, not an abusive family. The scars left have a different pattern too, as is the storytelling tone.

>> and yet... Steve and Bucky are taking from the pages of Buck Rogers and Age of Sail castaways. Gilligan's Island... <<

Yes, that's true.

>> Bucky however has some differing issues, since Steve acted to result in things and Bucky had things happen. <<

That makes a huge difference. Bruce is in between, because he chose to study gamma radiation, but did not choose to give Hulk a separate physical manifestation. Actually they all have one thing in common, the body dysphoria. It's mildest with Steve, because he did get to choose his transformation. Bucky has a hard time dealing with what was done to him, and that undermines his ability to adjust to the loss of his arm and getting a replacement. Bruce is struggling with the sense that his life and body are out of control.

>> All three once they find some stability though, they seem to be able to find their feet, <<

I'll say it again, context makes a huge difference in recovery. Being in a relatively safe place with supportive people, with all basic needs met, will help to heal most kinds of damage. Plus of course they're heroes, who have exceptional resilience by nature. They may take damage but it doesn't stop them.

>> Bucky the least so far since he's got lots of recent and ongoing Not There Yet as far as memory and so forth. <<

Right, the fresher damage sets him apart from the other Avengers. The memory is getting better, as much as it can with the auxiliary power source still in place.

>> Weebles all of them. <<

*LAUGH* Oh, they are. They so are.

>> Bruce and Clint may be interesting to compare/contrast. Both are exceptional men and even if they weren't Avengers they'd be heroes. <<

Yes, that's true.

>> And that is the most damaging thing public policy has been up to, forgetting that Everyone is a potential hero/ine and should have the opportunity to unfurl that fact. Neither pity nor punitive sanctions are the full measure of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. <<

Agreed. There are so many facets to heroism, but the fundamental one is simply the willingness and ability to help when help is needed. Furthermore, everyone comes into this world with certain life tasks in mind -- so every person whose circumstances prevent fulfillment is a loss to humanity. The big stuff is heavy, there's only going to be one or a few people carrying it at any given time. Muff one of them and you've lost your chance until the next round.

>> Narrow focus without grounding in a broad base tends to towers falling or unintended levers depending on the specifics. <<

Also true. Tony and Bruce are powerful because they can learn just about anything and connect the dots. Steve does much the same but on a social and strategic level.

Re: the bath arc

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Batman is the ur-Subscriptions not Issues Origin. Yes, it's the difference between a garbage can through a plate glass window, and all the dishes broken again. (I suspect Banner's background is more explicit now to lift it above the general ripped from the headlines and because we're better able to admit shit like that is even possible.) Remember how they pitched it on the tv show in the 70s?

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Batman is the ur-Subscriptions not Issues Origin. <<

True.

>> Yes, it's the difference between a garbage can through a plate glass window, and all the dishes broken again. (I suspect Banner's background is more explicit now to lift it above the general ripped from the headlines and because we're better able to admit shit like that is even possible.) <<

I agree. Knowing more about those issues makes it possible to refine characters. I do that with mine. If I'm going to write problems, I tend to prefer specific ones, so I'll look up examples of physical or mental conditions accordingly. It gives me a much better idea of how to do the detailing later.

>> Remember how they pitched it on the tv show in the 70s? <<

Yes. I loved that show. I've been a Bruce-and-Hulk fan all along. I almost always write Hulk as a sympathetic character, although the Norton interpretation was so good at simmering anger that I may someday explore the idea of Hulk as abuser-metaphor.

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>the whole camp was ... really weird.<<

That is a genteel way of putting it.

>> also on my camp on the same day that happened i hurt my wrist by dislocating it. <<

How awful!

>>it relocated itself but it caused pain for the rest of the camp but the bloody adults who were there refused to believe that anything bad had happened because sometimes i would get so frustrated with myself that i would force myself to write with it anyway. <<

Aaaaaand that's how people learn not to trust anybody, because nobody believes them or makes an honest effort to fix it when things go wrong.

>>because they could not see anything was wrong - nobody but me saw it dislocated - and because i /could/ push through the pain and use it, they were very unsympathetic and basically said i was making it up and it was no big deal.<<

Which technically qualifies as child neglect on grounds of denying medical care.

>> on the other hand i got a lot of good stuff from the same camp, which made it a lot more confusing because it wasn't just a bad experience it was a very high amplitude experience with some really-good and some really-bad all mixed up together. <<

Yes, that makes things much more complicated. Abuse is often mingled with affection or other positive experiences. That makes it harder to process when it's not as clear-cut as hating someone who just hurts you. You have to pick out the positive parts and try to un-associate those from the negative parts so it doesn't keep seeming like abuse is a normal part of anything good happening.

What a mess.

No wonder you're feeling twedgy about the parts of the story where the characters have to deal with tangled feelings, mixed messages, and situations where there's no easy solution.

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> i trust ysabet will write good safe stories and won't hurt tony <<

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

>> but it makes me want to curl up in a pillow fort and hide from this last few chapters. <<

Sorry about that. You can skip the icky bits if you want to.

>> also when there are non-science things mixed in (like "if you store tension in __bodypart__ it means __thing__") it makes me unhappy even though i know most people don't mind. it isn't true! <<

You're entitled to your opinion, based on your lived experience. If a model doesn't seem to work, by all means file it in the "nonsense" bin. And if other people's opinions clash with what you have actually observed, then trust your own judgement and bin it over their protests.

Me, I've tested the emotional storage model and found it to be useful in helping people feel better, so I'm comfortable writing about it. I don't think it's fully developed yet; we don't know all the ways the mind and body interact. Some of the listed examples are things I've seen personally, often enough to consider them an established pattern. Others I haven't seen, but if I hit a problem that didn't match my top guesses for cause, I'd run down the list and see if something new to me correlated with something reported by someone else. I'm an empiricist at heart. I'll test things to see if they work or not.

Also, consider that there can be a physical component to things that isn't necessarily obvious. Take the reaching/not reaching examples for arms. Suppose someone thinks about reaching for something. That can cause the arm to start moving and then stop, or more subtly, a few of the muscles twitch a bit. People can get into head-loops where they think about the same thing over and over. What happens if you repeatedly move a muscle the same way? Eventually it gets sore.

The tricky thing is that mind and body can overlap causes. If there's only one, treating for the other one won't help. If they're both in play, treating either will help, but only solve part of the problem. This is one reason why medicine, counseling, and energy work all have different patterns of effect and none of them are 100% consistent: because things that present as the same problem aren't always as identical as they seem to be, and that can affect the required solution(s).

Now if you're watching closely, you can spot patterns, like massage therapists talking about where people store tension in their bodies. Then you might decide to use science to see if that could be pinned down, and design a study to test it. Sometimes science can refine things from observed experience to specific proven facts. Other times it can identify where things that are widely believed just don't pan out under close examination. That's useful to know.

>> but i hope its ok in the end. <<

Yes, it is. That's something I aim for in this series. People can be hurt, but they can also be healed.

>> also ysabet i read a different story podfic this week called "moments lost in time" by "patheticfangirl" about avengers. its very dark and scary and it made me think it was like the opposite to this story although actually the canons don't have a single point of divergence. <<

Fascinating! Thanks for telling me.

>> but yours has tony and steve and the avengers being healed more and that story is like the inverse. not at all like this, but interesting. <<

I read darkfic occasionally, but I tend to favor more positive approaches. If I wanted depressing stories, I'd watch the news.

>> thank you for writing. <<

You're welcome!

>> and i have been really sick sorry i haven't commented lately. <<

:( I hope you feel better soon.

Re: the bath arc

[(Anonymous)]

oh!

i just realised a thing which is REALLY REALLY important and strong in my reaction to this bit. ill message ysabet about it 'cause i don't want to post it publicly though.

and you're right sometimes i just write off stuff which doesn't work for me like the storing-tension one doesn't and "energy work" stuff doesn't. just because i don't like it doesn't mean other people don't find it helpy, but i tend to believe that they're misunderstanding a placebo effect or something - i mean it seems much more likely to ME that tonys neck and hands will hurt because he spends ages computing. even in what you wrote, phil attributed his own sore hands to typing while attributing tonys to emotional stuff - that gets me because I've had a LOT of physical problems mis-attributed to emotional stuff in a blame-the-victim way which is bad.

i do not usually listen to dark things either but i didn't realise until i was into it and it was the only podfic i had around so i kept listening. usually i like happy stories best!!!

anyway i will message you about the thing now.

thank you.
from nonny75

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> i just realised a thing which is REALLY REALLY important and strong in my reaction to this bit. ill message ysabet about it 'cause i don't want to post it publicly though. <<

Fair enough.

>> and you're right sometimes i just write off stuff which doesn't work for me like the storing-tension one doesn't and "energy work" stuff doesn't. <<

That's fine.

>> just because i don't like it doesn't mean other people don't find it helpy, <<

Also worth mentioning is that some people tend to store tension in the body a lot more than other people do. I edited the initial mention to say "some people."

Bruce and Tony do this a lot. Clint does it too, but I think it affects him less often because he knows the isometric exercises to keep muscles from locking up during long periods of inactivity. I don't think Phil tends toward emotional armor, because he uses his business suit as armor. He can still tie himself in knots physically or emotionally, but they aren't usually tied together. I doubt Natasha gets anything this specific; she tends to be either fluid or stiff across her whole body, depending on context. Bucky has alllll the body issues, but it's harder to catch because it cycles in and out; after it gets bad enough to bother him, the healing factor kicks in. With Steve, it almost never sticks unless he's injured, but an injury can hitch up with an emotional connection and make him feel worse.

>> but i tend to believe that they're misunderstanding a placebo effect or something <<

There are at least two nonspecific factors in play, in addition to specific things that a health model may describe. One is the placebo effect, and frankly if we could just find a not-horrible way to activate that reliably it would be a tremendous help. Another I haven't seen an official name for, but it generates a positive effect from having a caregiver pay close attention to the client. It's distinguished from the placebo effect because you can activate the placebo effect with a pill, but this other one requires time and care. So it comes up a lot in massage therapy and other touch practices, but also in psychotherapy and its related branches.

With emotional storing, you're basically looking for a statistical blip where there isn't a physical cause but people with X emotional problem have Y physical complaint; or where a physical cause seems relevant but treating that does not solve the problem wholly because it turns out to have an emotional component also.

The bottom line is practical: does using the model generate better results than not using it? If better, it's helpful and there is probably some truth in it. Otherwise, you're wasting your time. And that's equally true for something like emotional tension storage and for psychotropic medication (some of which performs barely beyond placebo level, and all of which is very hit-or-miss in what will work for a given person).

>> i mean it seems much more likely to ME that tonys neck and hands will hurt because he spends ages computing. even in what you wrote, phil attributed his own sore hands to typing while attributing tonys to emotional stuff <<

I have also edited this to make more references to the physical side of things. Tony's problems are both physical and emotional, and there is a line in the original chapter about that:
Several hours of computer programming and emotional angst had left a lot of tracks behind. Your comments made me realize that I had described the emotional side more than the physical side, because to me the physical is obvious and needed less explanation. But it wound up creating an imbalance that bugged readers, so hopefully that's better now.

Thing is, most problems match their causes. So if you have a physical problem, look first for a physical cause and then for a nonphysical cause. If you have an emotional complaint, look first for a nonphysical cause and then a physical cause. But you have to remember that one cause may fork into multiple effects, or that multiple causes may feed into a single effect, not all of which necessarily match. So if you try one or two of the top options and it doesn't help, try switching categories. It's just that your odds of a quick success are better if you start with the most likely answer.

>> that gets me because I've had a LOT of physical problems mis-attributed to emotional stuff in a blame-the-victim way which is bad. <<

Well, yes, of course that makes you touchy about the topic. That's very shabby care.

I've had people try that with me. It doesn't make me disbelieve myself, my observations, or models I have found reliable. It makes me think the other person is stupid or selfish. That's a constant problem for me, because my body and mind behave very differently than the usual, which is dangerous if people refuse to deal with an individual case rather than an imaginary average. So for me, getting help with anything is a last resort, because the chance of success is low, while the chance of ineffective or actively harmful result is high. It's very frustrating.

You cannot fix a problem if you do not know what is actually going wrong and which solutions tend to work or not work for the case at hand. You cannot fix a broken leg by praying at it. You cannot fix warped thought habits with drugs. You cannot fix a broken spiritual bond manifesting as a slump with a back brace. And if the care provider does not listen to the client and think through a wide range of options, nobody will have an ever-living clue what is really wrong and it will go on being wrong. This is a problem because almost all care providers have extremely narrow training, it's very difficult to get them to network, and very few ordinary people know how to coordinate interdisciplinary anything. But as long as somebody signs the checks, it doesn't inconvenience the care providers if the client has ongoing problems.

>> i do not usually listen to dark things either but i didn't realise until i was into it and it was the only podfic i had around so i kept listening. usually i like happy stories best!!! <<

That makes sense.

>> thank you. <<

You're welcome! I'm glad I could help.

Re: the bath arc

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Another I haven't seen an official name for, but it generates a positive effect from having a caregiver pay close attention to the client. It's distinguished from the placebo effect because you can activate the placebo effect with a pill, but this other one requires time and care.

Might be named in the study where they found that workers were more productive when members of the physical plant 'changed' things. (This was the light study, but they proved that it wasn't functional in its total effect. Now if they made each functional change in the right way it might not only make the workers more productive but happier. (And happy workers are more productive, less ill and better able to be citizens, so forth.)

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Might be named in the study where they found that workers were more productive when members of the physical plant 'changed' things. <<

That's possible.

>> (This was the light study, but they proved that it wasn't functional in its total effect. Now if they made each functional change in the right way it might not only make the workers more productive but happier. <<

Often people respond not to a single cause, but to multiple causes working together. Here for instance you have the light changing, and people going in to change the lighting. If you only had people going in, or only the light changing (by remote control) then you could test those as separate variables. But researchers often don't think of things like that.

I strongly suspect that Tony does, because he's a good smart scientist even if he often takes risky shortcuts when testing new gear himself. (He's being a hell of a lot more cautious about Bucky's replacement than he is about himself. If someone had lopped off one of Tony's arms, he probably would've installed a replacement in a week.) Plus Tony has JARVIS to control things, and JARVIS is terrific at being discreet. The lighting in the tower actually has colortone controls, more sophisticated and versatile in some areas than others -- but that's how JARVIS was able to change the baseboard lighting when they were playing "the floor is lava" game.

JARVIS is still very tentatively feeling out the new parameters for interacting with teamfamily rather than just Tony and the tower occupants who don't know JARVIS personally. But so far, the trend is that the Avengers feel reassured by his presence and attention. So JARVIS is gradually becoming more proactive about what he does for his teamfamily, and more open about it.

>> (And happy workers are more productive, less ill and better able to be citizens, so forth.) <<

Tony knows this too. He likes taking good care of people. Nobody ever headhunts out of Stark Industries because there is no outcompeting the SI benefits package. Tony knows that he sucks at interpersonal stuff, so he makes up for it by being generous, and by hiring people to design favorable corporate groundrules. Bruce isn't the first maltreated scientist who's gotten the Candyland speech from Tony ... just the first one who liked Tony as a friend not just an employer rescuing him from a crappy situation.

Which kinda makes me wonder if Tony rescued Happy from some rich fuck who was mistreating the driver, because Tony would absolutely do that.

Where there are no headhunters

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Hammer probably finds it ridiculous that some of the janitors at SI are making more than their own junior R&D.

Tony:It's not my fault you're underpaying your people. Or that you are hiring people you aren't underpaying. Can't figure that out or how much what stinks is just your handiwork.

Re: Where there are no headhunters

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Hammer probably finds it ridiculous that some of the janitors at SI are making more than their own junior R&D. <<

I'm sure he does, because Justin is a sleaze.

>> Tony:It's not my fault you're underpaying your people. Or that you are hiring people you aren't underpaying. Can't figure that out or how much what stinks is just your handiwork. <<

I think a lot of the problem is Justin himself. He believes his work is better than it is, and he's very fond of stroking it for personal gratification. (The sales pitch in Iron Man 2 was appalling, though I loved Rhodey refusing to give him any feedback. Pleasure denial, heh.) Plus people tell him what he wants to hear, not what is necessarily true.

Tony is harder on his gear, and on himself, because he believes that nothing will ever be good enough. It's an advantage of perfectionism, although ideally I'd like to see him reach a more balanced place with his self-assessment.

Re: the bath arc

[fred_mouse]

Anecdata - I have a friend who used to be a massage therapist working in the CBD, and reached the point where zie was identifying the main computer program that zer clients were using by the pattern of stressed muscles. My memory is watching someone test this out, and it being quite impressive. But this plus my experiences with my own body lead me to be quite willing to accept the stress patterns indicating psychological or emotional state, and find your statement that this is 'non-science' to be odd.

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Anecdata - I have a friend who used to be a massage therapist working in the CBD, and reached the point where zie was identifying the main computer program that zer clients were using by the pattern of stressed muscles. <<

Holy cow! That is epic. I can imagine how it would happen, because programs require different movements and that would affect different muscles. Me, I can tell things like which side someone uses a mouse or a phone with, if it's messed up their muscles. Emotional stuff I'm more likely to read with a combination of physical and energetic clues. So that's a much higher level of refinement than I think my skills could discern. I'm impressed.

>>My memory is watching someone test this out, and it being quite impressive.<<

Thanks everso for sharing!

>> But this plus my experiences with my own body lead me to be quite willing to accept the stress patterns indicating psychological or emotional state, and find your statement that this is 'non-science' to be odd. <<

Two things to bear in mind:

1) As far as I know, this is at the kitchen-sink science stage, not the lab-tested science stage. A lot of people don't count the first, only the second. I'd really like to see some rigorous research in this area. If anyone has seen hardcore scientific studies of how some people store emotions in their bodies, I'd be interested in that. I've been linking articles from alternative health care providers because that's the most solid descriptive material I've found.

2) Just because something is science doesn't mean it will work the same for everyone. There are a lot of obscure variables hidden in human bodies. It's okay to be skeptical of something you haven't observed personally, or that seems to go against your observations. As long as people are polite and don't pick on each other, disagreeing is fine.

*chuckle* It could be worse. Poor Bruce thinks most of this stuff is bunk and is stuck working on the fringes between known science and woo-woo because so much of what he needs to do is not offered by science. Hulk breaks so many science rules that it makes Bruce's brain hurt. That doesn't mean science can't explain any of this, just Bruce doesn't know how to, and it makes him really uncomfortable. He'll teach what he has found to be effective, but he's always secretly worried that someone is going to say, "You idiot, don't you know this isn't REAL science?" A fair bit of his current work is trying to pin down things he heard or learned in the bush ("this plant has X effect" or "this chant relaxes brain waves") and see if any of it can be tested and proven replicable. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it's like trying to dice fog. I feel sorry for Bruce, but it's kind of amusing to watch him bang his head against that wall.

Re: the bath arc

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> These last few chapters are still percolating in my brain. <<

Sometimes things take a while to understand, especially if they are resonating with your own experiences.

You may find it helpful to read through my reply to your previous comment, if you haven't seen that yet. I went into more detail about why this particular activity is helpful.

>> I'm not sure how to feel about them entirely - I know Tony needs safe touch and someone has to get through to him that he matters, and that seems to be working, <<

Those are some of the things Tony needs. He also needs acceptance, and needs someone to help him untangle the emotional knots that he can't undo himself (and which are not, despite his efforts, soluble in alcohol).

>> but my own issues are being projected upon my readership, and I'm trying not to let that happen but it is, so I'm still kind of waffling on how I feel, <<

That happens sometimes. It's okay. Often it means that there's something on your side that would benefit from deeper thought. It's not necessarily the same thing as in the story, but usually related -- sometimes an action, other times a feeling or even just a wish. Maybe ask yourself what this is bringing up and whether you might find insight or resolution there. (This isn't something you have to discuss in public, just an idea for personal consideration.)

>> maybe it'll resolve itself once the story is done and I can read it all in one foul swoop to get a better handle on it. <<

That's possible. If it helps to know this, the next chapter covers the end of the bath and getting Tony out of the tub; the one after that has other bedtime activities.

>> Sorry I can't be more communicative. I do know that it is a good chapter, and more of your work is always a good thing. <<

I don't mind. You've said some things that are clear and useful. It's fine if you can't articulate everything. If you think of more later, I'd be interested in hearing it. I'm glad you enjoy my writing!

>> Maybe because they're not purely little!Tony and Uncle Phil right now? <<

Yes, I think that's part of it.

Previously some of the characters have shown a tendency to drift around in age presentation. In this case, Tony wants to shift down but can't. It's harder for him to accept nurturing and comfort in adult mode than in Little mode. Tony usually can't fix his own emotional problems, and he's tried fixing this one with no luck. But he is far enough along that he can take the chance on Phil's suggestion. The result is a deeply intimate situation that is partway soothing and partway awkward. Tony is in the odd position of trying to let go and also trying to scrabble his way down the age slope. While he's not able to switch down like usual, he does make good progress on relaxing, and on the kind of trust that is a choice to put himself in someone else's hands.

>> The bathing with Hulk in the earlier story didn't get to me like this is, I guess because that was purely cleanliness related, with team involvement and not -as- vulnerable as this is feeling, especially emotionally?<<

That sounds right to me. The shower scene involved some trust, but not nearly as much vulnerability. It was after that when Hulk really laid himself open, as his awareness turned back toward Bruce and making the transformation.

>> You do have the voice of the characters down, so very well, and their interactions. <<

Yay! I'm happy to hear that. I try to stay true to the characterization, while allowing room for growth.

>> I wish this was the sort of stuff we'd see in the movies, but I somehow don't think that'll happen. Ah well, I'll just keep lurking in fanon. <<

I wish that more movies and TV would explore deeper things like this. On the bright side, their loss is my gain: I can mine fanfic for the things that audiences want but aren't getting from the mainstream. Then I load those into my canons. I haven't done anything more with ageplay, but I've got a post-combat shower scene (two adults, nonsexual contact) and all kinds of stuff about trust, vulnerability, and hurt/comfort.

>> Thanks, as always. <<

You're welcome! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I think that Phil is willing to step outside of his own comfort zone, and ease Tony around to get him shifted. As readers, this may twig many social/personal norms and also awareness of Tony's damage.

Some of this is directly related to Tony's 'misconnect' where most of his naked time isn't intimate. In this section we further get that since the arc he hates his scars. (Tony's scars, his reactions to them, how other people handle that, sooo many fics have launched tropes from here.)

It is a 'radical' solution. It is powerful precisely because it is walking that razor edge. Phil is in a weird place, meta-speaking. Unlike Blair Sandburg (he's the curly-haired guy losing it in another of my icons.) Phil isn't Tony's shaman. As a society we are trained to distrust (with empirical reason) adult males regarding other people's bodies. This becomes stronger along various axes of power difference.

Nanny probably is the last person to wash Tony in a bath; Nurse sponge-baths may be a AMA reason for Tony.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I think that Phil is willing to step outside of his own comfort zone, <<

He is, and it shows when he goes to put on his swim trunks. Phil is trying to make a stretchy situation as bearable as possible for both of them.

>>and ease Tony around to get him shifted.<<

It's kind of like trying to pop someone's back when it goes out of alignment. That's rarely fun, but it's easier if you can get them to relax first.

>> As readers, this may twig many social/personal norms and also awareness of Tony's damage. <<

That's what I think happened, yes. Some people are more comfortable with communal bathing or other forms of nudity than others are. It's hard for Tony, because he used to be so vain about his body and now he doesn't like the way it looks or feels. That on top of his emotionally neglected childhood just adds up to a big painful mess.

>> Some of this is directly related to Tony's 'misconnect' where most of his naked time isn't intimate. <<

Yes. I think Tony has lived so much of his life in the public spotlight that it makes intimacy difficult for him to achieve. He has had a bad habit of thinking of his body as public territory in a lot of ways (thank you Obie and college women willing to fuck a 15-year-old) so that really needs work. I think Phil did a good job of showing Tony that it's possible to be naked and vulnerable without being used.

>> In this section we further get that since the arc he hates his scars. (Tony's scars, his reactions to them, how other people handle that, sooo many fics have launched tropes from here.) <<

I think that's an issue that has to be addressed, because Tony still claims "playboy" as one of his primary roles after the arc reactor, but he's obviously protective of it. My interpretation here is that he uses his skills and status to work around that limitation by keeping it mostly hidden. That he can let his teamfamily see it and sometimes even touch it is a good sign that he's bent, not broken. But that's still new and not fully secure yet, so it doesn't always work. When Tony feels frazzled, he gets more defensive about it.

>> It is a 'radical' solution. It is powerful precisely because it is walking that razor edge. <<

Yes, exactly. Just calming down and getting away from the immediate angst didn't fix the problem. Tony already tried a milder approach, switching down in private; followed by a moderate one, talking with Phil; neither of which worked. So Phil figured that in order to ease the emotional cramping, it was necessary to get Tony back into a vulnerable, malleable state. Anything that could do the trick was going to be edgy by definition.

>> Phil is in a weird place, meta-speaking. Unlike Blair Sandburg (he's the curly-haired guy losing it in another of my icons.) Phil isn't Tony's shaman. <<

True.

Actually the closest they have to a real shaman is Hulk: his native territory is the primal realm, he deals well with emotions, and he's skilled at switching across planes of reality. Bruce provides some shamanic functions but his scientific background makes him flinch at really inconvenient places.

On the other hoof, Phil does have two roles that require trust and deal with some subtle psychological stuff. He's the handler for the team, which puts him in charge of professional logistics and group dynamics; and he's their Big in ageplay, which gives him a lot of responsibility for their emotional health and sense of safety.

>> As a society we are trained to distrust (with empirical reason) adult males regarding other people's bodies. This becomes stronger along various axes of power difference. <<

True. It's more so for women than for men ... well, for most men. Obie did enough damage to Tony that probably pushes him farther toward the female-typical end of the spectrum in terms of feeling vulnerable toward adult men. But Phil is -- fortunately -- all the wrong shape and style to trigger that. Phil is small and mild-sounding, not big and domineering. So that at least avoids Tony's main landmine in this area.

I think Phil's lines of authority actually make it easier for Tony to trust him in this case. They've worked together long enough for Tony to realize intellectually, and start feeling emotionally, that Phil will never purposely steer him into a wall or let him hurt himself if it can be avoided, that he's a good reliable handler. Ageplay has been Tony's first real taste of safety and security, of someone taking good care of him. He doesn't quite know what to do with his feelings about that yet, but hates the idea of not being able to get back into that headspace. There have been all kinds of situations where Tony "should" have relied on other people and just couldn't bring himself to do it. But here they've made enough progress that Tony can follow along with Phil's guidance even when it's not wholly comfortable, because Tony believes that Phil knows an effective way of fixing things. The trust works even though they can't switch into their usual Big/Little roles (which is awkward as hell).

>> Nanny probably is the last person to wash Tony in a bath; <<

In terms of serious bathing, that's almost certainly true. He probably did a lot of lounging in pools and hot tubs and possibly bubble baths with sex partners ... but that's a very different connotation. I'll bet Tony hasn't done any of that since Afghanistan.

>> Nurse sponge-baths may be a AMA reason for Tony. <<

If they weren't before, they must be now. A stranger coming at him with water, any other washing liquid, or anything else that would make him feel wet is likely to provoke first panic and then violence. That's not safe for Tony or anyone around him.

Fortunately Tony has made enough progress that he can trust Phil not to drown him or let him drown -- and of course there's JARVIS as backup, since he controls the bathroom fixtures. The water is still an issue for Tony, but less than it used to be.

[redsixwing]

>>He lifted a hand to cup over Phil's heart...<<

I love that Tony has been using and re-using this gesture in scenes with Bucky and Phil - either allowing Bucky to touch the reactor while Tony touches his arm, or here, in a sort of mirror of that scene. I'll have to reread some and see if he ever uses it with Bruce. It's sort of painful and adorable at once.

The power dynamics are really coming to the surface in this arc (Bucky's step outside of the usual dynamic, now Phil's use of the ageplay dynamic outside of the normal space) and while I'm quite enjoying it, I think I have some thinking to do here as well.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> He lifted a hand to cup over Phil's heart...

I love that Tony has been using and re-using this gesture in scenes with Bucky and Phil -- either allowing Bucky to touch the reactor while Tony touches his arm, or here, in a sort of mirror of that scene. <<

Tony uses touch as an acknowledgement, a way of making things more real, but also as a connection for greater intimacy. It's his way of "plugging in" to people. He is particularly sensitive about the arc reactor and will only allow contact from people he trusts with his life and sanity. I think Tony finds a parallel with that in Bucky's arm, and he knows about Phil getting not-quite-stabbed by Loki so that's another sensitive area.

>> I'll have to reread some and see if he ever uses it with Bruce. <<

I'm not sure if Tony has done that yet, but he definitely equates Hulk and the arc reactor ... or did, in The Avengers. That may have shifted now that Hulk is also Tony's friend.

>> It's sort of painful and adorable at once. <<

Sooth. Every time Tony does that, it's a little moment of nakedness.

>> The power dynamics are really coming to the surface in this arc <<

Yes, this story deals with that a lot, looking at areas where people give power willingly or receive it mindfully -- and make mistakes grabbing or dropping or flinching. There are relationships where one person has a great deal of influence and another has a hard time saying no to them. There are people who find it easy to obey, and others for whom it's very difficult.

The key is that it balances out: nobody here is all take and no give, or completely dominant or submissive. There are checks and balances. In an abusive or codependent relationship, there is no tradeoff, nothing to stop people from getting badly damaged.

*chuckle* And just wait until you see where this goes in the next couple chapters.

>> (Bucky's step outside of the usual dynamic, now Phil's use of the ageplay dynamic outside of the normal space) <<

Once they have the ageplay established as a solid foundation, they can explore variations in attempt to resolve challenges. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it blows up in your face. That's what happens with sensitive issues. What matters is that they work through the results either way, instead of giving up or just casting blame. So it's getting better over time.

>>and while I'm quite enjoying it, I think I have some thinking to do here as well.<<

That's okay. Deep, complex issues like those appearing in recent scenes will often require a lot of thought -- especially if they resonate with your own experiences in any way.

[syxmaxwell]

So much love for this series!

Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Safe Touching

[(Anonymous)]

I really love how you've integrated this interaction between Tony and Phil. I'm always looking for stories that are not focused on sexual intimacy between the characters. As someone who identifies as demi it's really important and comforting to me to see this kind of stuff represented in fanfiction because, personally, I can relate to it better. Most of the time I feel like Clint in "No Winter Lasts Forever" (I think) where he's mentioning feeling uncomfortable/confused with Bucky and Natasha's relationship. These chapters have been really nice :) Thank you!

Re: Safe Touching

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I really love how you've integrated this interaction between Tony and Phil.<<

Thank you! I'm glad you like it.

>> I'm always looking for stories that are not focused on sexual intimacy between the characters. <<

I write a LOT of that, both in fanfic and my original work, fiction and poetry. I can give you more recommendations if you like.

>> As someone who identifies as demi it's really important and comforting to me to see this kind of stuff represented in fanfiction because, personally, I can relate to it better. <<

I feel that nonsexual intimacy deserves more attention than it gets, both in entertainment and in real life. I've also found it very popular with my readers. I have some series that run to domestic fluff, and others that delve into very intense issues, both with enthusiastic fans who request more.

I often write characters of uncommon sexual orientation or identity. I don't have a lot of demi characters but I do have a few. In this series, I'm leaning towards Steve as demi. Over in Schrodinger's Hulk I've written Betsy Ross as demi in "For the Very First Time." (That's not a typo.) I've also got an original poem, "The Thief of Her Heart," about a definitively demisexual hero, Delbar. My characters don't always reveal their traits so clearly but I usually try to note them when I know for sure.

>> Most of the time I feel like Clint in "No Winter Lasts Forever" (I think) where he's mentioning feeling uncomfortable/confused with Bucky and Natasha's relationship. <<

In this series I'm writing Clint as asexual. He needs a variety of nonsexual relationships. But he hasn't had an easy life, so he doesn't always understand how people can form different kinds of ties. He's insecure enough to feel threatened easily -- but it's getting better as he connects with the group more. It helps a lot that Clint has Bruce-and-Hulk as touch-buddy and Natasha as sister and now Bucky as fellow sniper. The thing with Natasha and Bucky really threw Clint because it pinged as an exclusive relationship, and Clint had a hard time grasping that because it was on a different plane, it wasn't a threat to him.

I would like to get into Clint's asexuality more, because occasionally it becomes relevant when he does or feels things differently than a sexual person would. Plus I like the way that it opens up different plotlines, because sex plots are the overwhelming majority so anything else is lower-traffic. I enjoy a good round of sex/romance when it fits well in a story, but I like a lot of other things too. There should be different options.

>> These chapters have been really nice :) Thank you! <<

You're welcome.

Re: Safe Touching

[(Anonymous)]

I've read most of your writing simply because of the fact that so much of it is directly geared to what I like. :) I leave this page open and read as soon as you post!

I would love to see Steve as a demi and more Clint plotlines. So often, especially it seems in the Anvengers universe, it's Tony and Steve crammed together in a relationship which sometimes, if the author is good at it, works but most of the time just feels so forced to me. It's so great to see something different.

Thank you again :) I'm off to read the next chapter!

Re: Safe Touching

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I've read most of your writing simply because of the fact that so much of it is directly geared to what I like. :) I leave this page open and read as soon as you post! <<

I'm delighted to hear that. Part of the fun in writing online is the audience interaction. So most of my projects are designed to encourage that, and I built up an audience who likes what I do.

>> I would love to see Steve as a demi and more Clint plotlines. <<

Yay! That would be fun to explore.

>> So often, especially it seems in the Anvengers universe, it's Tony and Steve crammed together in a relationship which sometimes, if the author is good at it, works but most of the time just feels so forced to me. <<

Well, some of it is frankly strokefic, which is fun for people who like that sort of thing. I enjoy Tony/Steve if it's well written, but I tend to prefer plot along with sexytimes. Otherwise why bother making it these characters? It's the unique tensions of their relationship that intrigue me, and honestly, for most of that they don't need to hop in the sack. So for me it usually stays platonic, and there is some adorable Tony & Steve action later in this story.

>> It's so great to see something different. <<

I'm glad that you enjoy the variety.

>> Thank you again :) I'm off to read the next chapter! <<

*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.

[imagined_away]

Hello there!

So I recently went on what can only be described as an ageplay binge over on AO3 and, of course, had to reread this series! Once I realized there had been new parts added I had to read those as well. I then tried convincing myself to wait for the AO3 updates but, well, you see how that turned out.

This series is near and dear to me for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that it's really hard to find nonsexual ageplay fic. While I don't mind reading sexual ageplay fic (it's often my only choice) nonsexual has always been where my heart is at. Partially because my own issues make it hard for me to stomach daddy kink sometimes, but also because there's something so comforting about being cared for so deeply and tenderly in a nonsexual relationship. It's so starkly obvious how much Phil cares for his teamfamily and it's nice to see how everyone benefits from the set up they have going on. Watching everyone slowly but surely become more secure in themselves and their place on the team has been amazing. The developing relationship between Hulk and Bruce and Hulk and the rest of the team has been one of my favorite parts of the whole thing.

I also really love that Phil doesn't use physical punishment to discipline the team while they're little. I love a good spanking between consenting adult as much as the next person, but for some reason that tends to work best for me in sexual situations, be they ageplay related or not. Something about the idea of hitting someone when they're aged down just makes me really uncomfortable, especially considering how many of the characters in this story have an abusive homelife in their past.

But mostly I love this story because it has opened my eyes, more than any other story I've ever read, to the idea that nonsexual ageplay can be something that really happens in people's lives. You took something that I wasn't even really aware I wanted and showed me how amazing and beautiful it could be. So thank you. Because I really cannot explain enough just how much that means to me.

I eagerly await the next update :)

Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> So I recently went on what can only be described as an ageplay binge over on AO3 and, of course, had to reread this series! Once I realized there had been new parts added I had to read those as well. <<

This story updates Monday-Wednesday-Friday.

>> I then tried convincing myself to wait for the AO3 updates but, well, you see how that turned out. <<

I'm glad you followed me here! One reason I write fanfic is to find new readers. Plus if you read in both places, you can see more comments.

>> This series is near and dear to me for a lot of reasons. <<

I'm happy to hear that.

>> One of the biggest is that it's really hard to find nonsexual ageplay fic. While I don't mind reading sexual ageplay fic (it's often my only choice) nonsexual has always been where my heart is at. <<

I've never liked ageplay, but the plotbunny ran away with me here. I discovered that I'm okay with the nonsexual version; it's very close to several different types of therapy, which provided a lot of inspiration for this series. The sexual version is off-putting for me.

>> Partially because my own issues make it hard for me to stomach daddy kink sometimes, but also because there's something so comforting about being cared for so deeply and tenderly in a nonsexual relationship. <<

This is really what I wanted to explore in the series -- all the different ways that people can connect on a nonsexual basis. Many of those fall outside the usual things considered "primary" relationships. But lab partners, dance partners, those can have a major impact on people's lives. I think it's important to acknowledge.

These characters all have a tremendous amount of stress in their lives, on top of the past damage, so they need ways to recover and recharge. Natasha's line just gave me an idea on how to lift enough of the everyday pressure to let them relax. They need someone to take care of them and teach them how to be gentle with themselves and each other, how to accept support and affection.

>> It's so starkly obvious how much Phil cares for his teamfamily and it's nice to see how everyone benefits from the set up they have going on. Watching everyone slowly but surely become more secure in themselves and their place on the team has been amazing. <<

Phil is a handler. Part of the job description entails taking care of people. He's very protective. I think it's cute when the Avengers turn the table on him though.

They got a good jump-start at the beginning. So the early part of the series was mostly fluff. As it continues, deeper issues arise now that people have a safe place to address them. They have strong enough connections now to support that kind of work.

>> The developing relationship between Hulk and Bruce and Hulk and the rest of the team has been one of my favorite parts of the whole thing. <<

Yay! I love that too. (You might also like my other Bruce-and-Hulk series, Schrodinger's Hulk.) I wanted to give this a nice long development, because Bruce is incredibly stubborn and Hulk needs time to grow into himself now that he's not being hunted constantly. I'm hoping that I'll have time to do the big climax story for them. The Avengers have about had it with Bruce mistreating Hulk. Bruce is making progress, but people are starting to see how his behavior is causing negative impact for the team.

>> I also really love that Phil doesn't use physical punishment to discipline the team while they're little. <<

He can't. They'd snap, one way or another. Tony's wild reaction to Bucky's threat is pretty typical of what would happen. That was an accident and it's taking days to straighten out. The Avengers need game night to be safe.

>> I love a good spanking between consenting adult as much as the next person, but for some reason that tends to work best for me in sexual situations, be they ageplay related or not. <<

Well, erotic spanking is different from punitive spanking -- although some people happen to enjoy both. Consenting adults can do as they please.

Spanking as punishment for children is a much stickier issue. It has some advantages, but the disadvantages tend to outweigh those in most cases. Some families find that it works very well for them, including from the children's perspective, but usually it just causes resentment.

>> Something about the idea of hitting someone when they're aged down just makes me really uncomfortable, <<

I write ageplay as power exchange. Most material on power exchange is only from a sexual perspective. But there are lots of other contexts for someone wanting or needing to give away some of their power for a while. It's heavy.

The person who accepts power has to be very careful with it. Otherwise the situation gets unbalanced and causes problems. It's a very delicate process. Physical punishment adds a whole extra layer of complication, which is why some people like BDSM; but it's very easy for things to go wrong.

The current story "Hide and Seek" is very much about power dynamics. It looks at a lot of different ties, primarily relating to Phil and Tony, then Bucky and Tony, but also Steve and Steve, Bucky and Steve, Steve and Phil. They're trying to learn how to handle giving away and receiving power, and trust, how to do that without dropping anyone or getting hurt themselves. It's very challenging for them. Tony is kind of freaking out over the new feelings. But mostly they need to know that they can be vulnerable without being hurt, that if they are feeling fragile then someone will want to take care of them instead of taking advantage.

>> especially considering how many of the characters in this story have an abusive homelife in their past. <<

Yes, exactly. Abuse survivors have a driving need to feel safe and protected. They usually can't tolerate physical punishment -- and often they're touchy about anything else related to their abuse, such as yelling. The Avengers are gradually learning each other's triggers and mostly manage to avoid those.

That's also part of what gave me the idea for the series. It's fairly easy to do ageplay just for fun, or to find one broken person who'd find it healing. But here, basically the entire team has a matched set of crappy childhoods, although the types of hardship vary. It's a perfect opportunity to take them all down together and redo things the right way.

>>But mostly I love this story because it has opened my eyes, more than any other story I've ever read, to the idea that nonsexual ageplay can be something that really happens in people's lives.<<

I'm so glad I could do that for you. It has taken me a LOT of digging to find halfway decent references for nonsexual ageplay, because almost all the examples are sexed up. However, the nonsexual version seems to be something a bunch of people like, and didn't realize they would like because they'd only ever seen the sexy kind. So I think this is useful in terms of showing what kind of things people can do with it. Some is from healing exercises in sex-abuse recovery books. Some is just because I've done things like this without the ageplay -- if people missed a particular experience, I encourage them to give it a try.

>> You took something that I wasn't even really aware I wanted and showed me how amazing and beautiful it could be. So thank you. Because I really cannot explain enough just how much that means to me. <<

*hugs* I'm happy to hear that.

>> I eagerly await the next update :) <<

It should go up in a few hours. I usually update after midnight, so that if something goes wrong I've got the next day to play catchup.

Re: Thank you!

[imagined_away]

I am pretty much guaranteed to read anything titled Schrodinger's Hulk. The title alone is fantastic.

I have a massive issue with the idea of spanking actual children. Like if an adult wants to consent to spanking as punishment in their ageplay that's their business and totally fine. But the idea of hitting kids who actually have no way of stopping it makes me feel sick. Honestly, that's probably my own issues coming into play to a certain extent but it's just beyond not okay with me.

The idea of game night as safe is so important and I love how committed you are to that. A lot of the reason I read ahead was because I had to see the aftermath of Bucky threatening to hit Tony. You've done a great job of dealing with the fact that what was acceptable as punishment in the 30's isn't the same as what's acceptable as punishment now.

You touched on something I forgot to mention in my initial comment which is the bond Phil and Tony are developing. Tony's changing behavior has been in my mind for these last few stories and I was really glad and relieved to see Phil letting Tony know that he can behave however he wants/needs to at game night and everything will still be okay. The bathing really stuck with me because it's such a good way to help build trust in situations like these. And I highly doubt that Tony's parents took the time to bathe him very often. I imagine that was more of a nanny type job until Tony was old enough to do it himself.

The notes at the end of the chapters are always so great! I really appreciate all the time you must take to hunt all those links down for us!

Finally as an adult survivor of childhood abuse, including sexual abuse, and as the adult child of alcoholics, it means a lot to me to see all of those topics treated with such respect and care. A lot of people use them for shock value or something and it's hard to read but you're so thoughtful about the things discussed in the story and it's a really great approach.

Re: Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I am pretty much guaranteed to read anything titled Schrodinger's Hulk. The title alone is fantastic.<<

Yay! This is a crossover with the apocryphal television show Schrodinger's Heroes which is about quantum mechanics and saving the world.

There are three stories so far. The first shows Bruce turning to a friend for help, shortly after the lab accident, because after seeing The Avengers I just really wanted someone to cuddle him and protect him and rain destruction on his enemies. The second is a genderflexy look at the relationship between Bruce and Hulk. The third brings in Betty.

>> I have a massive issue with the idea of spanking actual children. <<

That's understandable. I'd prefer to deal with it by promoting more effective forms of discipline and by shifting society to give parents more resources for healthier family dynamics. Intruding laws into family life pretty consistently ends with trampling the rights of people who aren't popular with the majority, which goes to ghastly places rather fast, so I prefer to avoid that. I think the current laws about abuse are helpful if people actually bother to enforce them mindfully (which is a different issue). It's not a simple debate at all; there are strong feelings on many sides of it. So I try to show some of the different perspectives, and let folks draw their own conclusions.

>> The idea of game night as safe is so important and I love how committed you are to that. <<

Thank you! Power exchange of any kind tends to have a strong element of trust; people do it because they need to feel that someone will hold them securely. Ageplay often gravitates to a time when people felt safe -- or conversely, did not feel safe but desperately needed it. This is a way of creating a solid foundation for themselves and their family, to balance their very complicated lives upon.

>> A lot of the reason I read ahead was because I had to see the aftermath of Bucky threatening to hit Tony. <<

Yeah, that's a tense area. I was expecting people to buzz over that. I wasn't expecting the giant debate that happened over whether or not Phil was justified in keeping control of Tony to prevent him from (presumably) getting drunk and maybe hurting himself or someone else.

>> You've done a great job of dealing with the fact that what was acceptable as punishment in the 30's isn't the same as what's acceptable as punishment now. <<

I'm glad that works for you. There's more about it later in the story. The whole thing is very complicated for Bucky and Steve. Phil helps them work through it.

>>You touched on something I forgot to mention in my initial comment which is the bond Phil and Tony are developing.<<

Phil is the first person who has made Tony feel like it's okay not to be in charge. Everyone else who tried to influence Tony demanded that he be more responsible. Tony urgently needs what Phil can give him, but sometimes has a hard time articulating that or even recognizing it within himself.

>> Tony's changing behavior has been in my mind for these last few stories and I was really glad and relieved to see Phil letting Tony know that he can behave however he wants/needs to at game night and everything will still be okay. <<

Both Tony and Clint need to feel free to act out and know that someone will give them limits without hurting them, will let them be themselves without rejecting them. Phil knows that they really crave reassurance, so he tries to provide that.

>> The bathing really stuck with me because it's such a good way to help build trust in situations like these. <<

Yes. It's intensely intimate. It does push boundaries, because it makes people open and vulnerable in ways that adults usually are not with each other. But that's why it works here. Phil needed something that would get Tony into a malleable state so they could fix what got messed up. Plus it was a good bet that Tony, being touch-dominant, would respond well to that much skin contact once he got over thinking it was something he shouldn't want.

>> And I highly doubt that Tony's parents took the time to bathe him very often. I imagine that was more of a nanny type job until Tony was old enough to do it himself. <<

I don't think they ever did it. I think they fobbed him off on nannies, and to the nannies it would have been just a job. Clinical bathing is not pleasant nurturing experience for most people. The perfunctory nature of the motion comes through loud and clear -- all the more so for someone whose native language is touch. The first message Tony got was that people had to be paid to put up with him, and would do only what was necessary for sake of the money.

So it means a lot that Phil wants to wash Tony not as a chore, but as an offering of love. It takes a while for Tony's body to parse the difference, and then for that to percolate through to his thoughts and feelings. I think it's good for him, though.

>> The notes at the end of the chapters are always so great! I really appreciate all the time you must take to hunt all those links down for us! <<

Thank you! I write nonfiction as well as fiction and poetry, so that's where my reference skills come from. Some of my series run to notes, especially the historic or hard-science ones, others less so. This one is pretty much my highwater mark though.

>> Finally as an adult survivor of childhood abuse, including sexual abuse, and as the adult child of alcoholics, it means a lot to me to see all of those topics treated with such respect and care. <<

I'm glad to hear that. Unlike the ageplay which is unique to this series so far, those are motifs I've handled a lot. I touched on child abuse in "Not Mine" and "Lifeyears" among other places. Path of the Paladins has a rape recovery theme throughout. One God's Story of Mid-life Crisis deals with alcoholism throughout, and adult children of alcoholics specifically in "The Distillation of Senses."

>> A lot of people use them for shock value or something and it's hard to read but you're so thoughtful about the things discussed in the story and it's a really great approach. <<

I like dealing with intense, controversial topics. I feel that it's important to do them justice. Why bother to bring out the big issues if you're just going to treat them like cheap props? There is so much story potential there. These are major influences on people's lives. The movies and comics only show hints of backstory and impact; I wanted more. That's also why I brought Bucky in, because he's got so much trauma and so many different connections to the other characters.

I wish that canonical entertainment would explore these things more often and more honestly. That's why I load them into my canons, so it doesn't all have to come from fanfic. It can be part of the main material. I love that my audience responds so enthusiastically to what I write, that they ask for more of the deep stuff as well as fluff. (I have some series that run to very positive stuff too.) So that's encouraging.