Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 31

[ysabetwordsmith]

This story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."

Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.

Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28, Part 29, Part 30.  Skip to Part 33, Part 34, Part 35, Part 36.


"Hide and Seek" Part 31


"What about Bucky?" asked Phil.

"It's harder with him," Tony admitted. He turned away, foot scuffing against the carpet. "He makes me feel ... I dunno. It's like with Steve at first, kind of, I want to impress him but I keep screwing up. So I try really hard not to do anything wrong, and then I tend to wind up ... not doing anything."

"I think that backfired," Phil said.

"Yeah," Tony said glumly.

"It reminds me of something else, too," Phil said. "Bucky has mentioned at least twice that you 'smelled like home,' in particular motor oil and dirt floor. Steve has noticed it too. You've evaded previous attempts to talk about this, and I let it go because it didn't seem important enough to stress you by pushing the issue."

"It's not easy to talk about," Tony said.

"I know. I think we need to, though," Phil said. "Now that I've seen your toolshed, I believe it's somewhere you go when you feel upset, not somewhere you work every day. Am I right?"

Tony nodded. "Yeah, sometimes I duck in real quick if I just need a particular tool, or a bit of inspiration, but if I'm in there a while, it's ... usually not a good time," he said. He drifted back toward Phil, finding comfort in proximity.

"Understood. Two occasions that come to mind are right before we brought Bucky into the tower, and the morning he woke up without most of his memories," Phil said. "Can you tell me anything about those times?"

"It was Howard," Tony said. "He and Bucky knew each other. I went digging in some old files for information about Bucky. I needed to get something in my hands, get out of my head. Then I was thinking about Howard helping to start SHIELD, and how it just seems that everything he touched turned to shit ..."

"Not Steve," Phil pointed out.

"Everything except for perfect Steve," Tony snarled, "oh yes, how could I possibly have forgotten that one."

Old words. Old wounds. Phil reached out and laid a gentle hand over Tony's wrist. "I apologize. I should have picked a different example."

Tony sighed. "No, I'm sorry for snapping. That's not fair of me. I know none of it was Steve's fault. Howard just ..."

Phil waited, but Tony did not resume. "Howard hurt you by comparing you to someone else, instead of valuing you for yourself," he guessed. "I don't think he realized how much it would hurt Steve as well."

"Howard didn't realize a lot of things," Tony said. "The other time it was him too. I'd been working on ideas for Bucky's replacement arm. It reminded me of some of Howard's old projects -- he was a pilot, and that made him fascinated with making everything as light as possible. Planes. Flying cars. He did some early work in prosthetics, even. There were some joints left that I wanted to compare. Then I couldn't help thinking about the arc reactor and how he had to fix that for me and, and, fuck."

And then they had to call Tony to come check Bucky's hardware. No wonder Tony melted down later in the day. It's amazing that didn't happen sooner. We need to take better care of him after he's spent time in the toolshed, Phil thought. "You did the hard work, Tony," Phil said aloud.

"I guess," Tony said. "Anyway, I try to be nice to Bucky. It's not right for me to take it out on him, when Howard is the one I'm really angry with. Bucky's a good guy. He deserves a little peace, after all the crap that's happened to him."

"That's very kind of you," said Phil. "I've wondered how you two managed to grow so close, so fast."

"We're both mechanics," Tony said. "Both pranksters and troublemakers and ladies' men."

Both heroes, Phil added silently.

"Bucky is part of my past, in a way, because of Howard but especially Steve," said Tony. "The other thing ... I didn't know until Natasha said, about his arm. Once I got a good look at it, then I realized."

"Realized what?" Phil asked.

"He's like me, part human and part machine. That arm isn't just a harness rig, it's actually spliced into his nervous system," Tony said. Then his voice lowered. "Bucky is the only other cyborg I know. It feels good ... to know I'm not alone anymore."

"I'm glad you find some comfort in that," Phil said. "I've noticed a pattern, though, where you upset someone and then make up for it by revealing something deeply personal. You do it more with Bucky, although I know you do it with Pepper and a few others too."

Tony shrugged. "There was a seminar."

"What kind of seminar?" Phil asked.

"You know, sensitivity training. I got into some scandal, forget which one because this was years ago. Obie and Pepper helped clean up the mess," Tony said. "Then they hired this motivational speaker to come talk about relationship maintenance and appropriate boundaries and stuff. Most of it didn't make much sense to me, but that bit -- it's like balancing accounts. It just added up right in my head. So I started using it with people I cared about."

"How did that work out for you?" Phil asked.

"It helped some, especially with Pepper. She wants me to tell her things, though sometimes she flips out when she hears what I have to say," Tony said. "It's nice to have a method that works at all. I screw up a lot and Pepper shouldn't have to put up with that without getting anything back."

"What about Obie?" Phil said.

"How do you think he got enough access to paralyze JARVIS?" Tony said bitterly.

Well, that explains a lot, Phil thought. I wonder if Obie engineered that entire sequence, so he could train Tony to mend offenses that way. It gave Obie access to a lot of personal information that he could use against Tony. Phil's hand tightened on the couch. The transactional approach to relationship maintenance bothered him with Tony, as much as it did with Natasha. They weren't wrong, exactly, but sometimes their efforts at balancing accounts could get them into more trouble.

* * *

Notes:

Impressing people is a common desire, but not a good idea. There are tips on how to stop trying to impress people, and conversely, how to impress people for real. You can see a lot of Tony's behavior in canon that angles this way, despite being mixed with a lot of devil-may-care shenanigans.

Fear of disapproval is a pervasive part of the anxiety culture. Learn how to face your fears. For all his fast talking and flashy accomplishments, Tony's self-confidence is more sham than substance. Watch him with people he cares about, like Pepper or Bruce, and the fear shows through.

Smell and memory are closely connected. This is especially true if strong emotions are involved, as with nostalgic smells. Scent can unlock memories, even "lost" ones for dementia patients or abuse survivors.

Different types of child abuse can have different effects. These impact connections with other people, as shown in this diagram of the circumplex model of abuse. Damage to attachment then makes it difficult for survivors to draw healthy boundaries. Look at the Avengers and you can see varying results: emotional neglect with occasional physical abuse amidst financial plenty left Tony erratic. Severe emotional and physical abuse with various neglect left Bruce skittish, Hulk violently defensive, and both convinced they deserve nothing good. A moderate mix of abuse and neglect left Clint touch-starved and determined to fend for himself. Intense abuse and deprivation left Natasha emotionally numb and morally confused.

Comparisons can hurt kids and adults. It's not a good idea to compare yourself with other people. There are tips on how to avoid comparing children and how to stop comparing yourself to others.

Feeling inadequate can plague people even in the presence of strong talent. There are ways to overcome feelings of inadequacy and to turn the lack into strength.

People can be fragile in times of hardship. Relationships are delicate too; handle with care. Understand how to help a friend overcome stress and what to do when you have a bad day. Sometimes it's important to cut each other some slack, and yourself too. Some of the Avengers have strong nurturing instincts, while others are still learning that -- and they all have a protective streak.

Common ground makes a great foundation for friendship. This opportunity for connection is good, because people need other people. Whatever you're going through, you are not alone, and that can help to hold on. There are tips for finding things in common with others.

Friendship can be envisioned as a kind of bank account representing the natural give-and-take in relationships. Creating intimacy relies on finding the right amount of self-disclosure, not too much or too little. Otherwise you wind up in an unbalanced relationship, which is destructive. Hopefully you can get out before anyone gets seriously injured or killed ... but what happened to Tony with Obie is fantastical only in the detail, not the ultimate effects. Understand how to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy relationships. A good friendship builds support and lasting ties.


[To be continued in Part 32 ...]

Comments

[thecookiemomma]

Wow. This one is especially powerful for me, because I've been thinking of some of the same things in regard to Tony. About how there are connections, and how Obie shattered quite a bit. He was ... at least in certain ways, a 'groomer.' I mean, you can see it with how he speaks to Tony. "Don't you want to ..." gently leading him into things that might not be the wisest things. So, between that and the connections with Howard, pretty powerful stuff. Still enjoying your process of unpacking everything.

Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Wow. This one is especially powerful for me, because I've been thinking of some of the same things in regard to Tony. <<

I'm happy to hear that.

>> About how there are connections, and how Obie shattered quite a bit. He was ... at least in certain ways, a 'groomer.' <<

Obie was devastating, and he caught Tony when Tony was young and vulnerable, then had time to do a lot more damage. Tony tried so hard to please him.

>> I mean, you can see it with how he speaks to Tony. "Don't you want to ..." gently leading him into things that might not be the wisest things. <<

Yes, exactly. Obie came off as a real creeper in the movie. It's no wonder so many people have spun it off into sexual abuse. I set it as psychological abuse because that's the angle that made sense for this story. That's part of why Tony's boundary issues are so bad.

>> So, between that and the connections with Howard, pretty powerful stuff. <<

Yeah, places where Obie's damage stacks over Howard's damage are just ruins. There will be more on this later.

>> Still enjoying your process of unpacking everything. <<

Oh, good. One of the things I enjoy about fanfic is the chance to explain things in canon. Tony and JARVIS are so powerful, it's really hard to get the drop on them. So I figure Obie would have done it with misgiven trust. Defenses are no use if you don't activate them, or if you've given someone a way to shut them off.

And of course now Tony feels guilty about that, the way victims often do. JARVIS too. They're upset at themselves for not protecting each other. I suspect JARVIS has a clearer concept of Obie as villain, though, because he never adored the man as Tony did.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Obie is total creeper, social engineering his way into more power and wealth than he earned. I figured from the first movie that he was initially providing the coke and professionals that rounded out Tony's party hard. He probably made sure that Howard never had to go far for a tempting bottle if he ever considered not drinking further.

It wouldn't surprise me if he set up that car crash that killed Howard and Maria, whether because one or both was getting difficult, or if Howard was too pickled to produce golden eggs and Obie thought he could spin things and had Tony all lined up.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Obie is total creeper, social engineering his way into more power and wealth than he earned.<<

Yes, that's true. One thing that interested me is how much of what Obie did is almost always male-on-female oppression. The only close parallel I can think of is how Q treated Captain Picard. There is just so much metaphoric sexual imagery going on with Tony, not even just with Obie. If this shit happened to a female character, people would howl about the violation.

>> I figured from the first movie that he was initially providing the coke and professionals that rounded out Tony's party hard. <<

I suspect that's true. It would have been an easy method to keep a young man from getting in the way.

>>He probably made sure that Howard never had to go far for a tempting bottle if he ever considered not drinking further.<<

Likely so. "Here, have another, drown those sorrows dead."

It makes me wonder how many times Tony wanted to cut back on this or that, and Obie foxed up his efforts. Somehow Tony seems to have avoided or gotten off the worst of the drugs, and it's just booze now. That may have played into Obie deciding Tony was getting too headstrong to keep around.

>> It wouldn't surprise me if he set up that car crash that killed Howard and Maria, whether because one or both was getting difficult, or if Howard was too pickled to produce golden eggs and Obie thought he could spin things and had Tony all lined up. <<

Agreed, that's a possibility. It might not even have been explicitly engineered. As Phil pointed out with Clint's injury pulling Phil away from Steve's awakening, sometimes it's not necessary to arrange an accident -- just an opportunity. Keep Howard drunk often enough, subtly encourage his reckless behavior, and sooner or later the odds are he'd wreck.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I think that's one of the reasons Rule 63 Tonys don't sit right with me. Because the refrigerator is just too close then.

I suspect that Starks once they get off things, if they don't have a fidget habit that it feeds, can stay off. The booze is more difficult because of the glassware woobie.

True. Notice that Tony mostly has a driver. Part of that is drunk driving ceased just being a problem and became an issue in that era.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I think that's one of the reasons Rule 63 Tonys don't sit right with me. Because the refrigerator is just too close then. <<

I see what you mean about the fridge issue. I've read some good genderbent Toni though. For me it works because Tony is so oversexed, I tend to parse his orientation as anything-that-moves, so changing sex/gender doesn't impact as much.

>> I suspect that Starks once they get off things, if they don't have a fidget habit that it feeds, can stay off. The booze is more difficult because of the glassware woobie. <<

I think Starks run to purpose-driver addiction rather than having fun that goes to far. It's a painkiller, or an intellectual stimulant, or something like that. They can quit -- if they find something else to fill that need. That's probably what had Obie worried. It's what Phil is working toward now, trying to help Tony find other things that work better than his current maladaptive coping mechanisms.

As for fidgets, the Avengers are leaving increasing amounts of stress toys around the tower. I know Tony and Bruce love having things to fiddle with. I think Phil and Betty are encouraging that, and of course Phil is the one who started bringing in the kiddie toys for game night. Now there's Bucky, who also likes having something in his hands.

>>True. Notice that Tony mostly has a driver. Part of that is drunk driving ceased just being a problem and became an issue in that era.<<

I think a key reason why Tony usually has a driver is because of how his parents died. It's not just out of self-preservation, but because Tony would never forgive himself if he hurt someone else. But it's erratic, because sometimes he gets so plastered that he forgets about caring for himself or anyone else, and goes drunk-driving or flying or whatever.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

If we leave Tony with an Alexander's Star, will he figure out how to redesign its mechanism to not be so delicate?

I've posited that Tony drinks to make other people more interesting, or to reduce his anxiety about other people, or to self-medicate when he knows something is off but not what.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>If we leave Tony with an Alexander's Star, will he figure out how to redesign its mechanism to not be so delicate?<<

He'd probably wind up turning it into a hologram.

>>I've posited that Tony drinks to make other people more interesting, or to reduce his anxiety about other people, or to self-medicate when he knows something is off but not what.<<

I'm sure he does all of those. In canon, he also seems to use alcohol to inure himself to other people's stupid or annoying behavior, as an emotional painkiller, when he needs to shut off his brain because it won't leave him alone, and when he doesn't know what else to do.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

His flowchart has lots of Then Drink statements. "Stupid" and "annoying" are the default opposition to "is interesting enough". And yes, his mind is self-destructive when not given its proper outlet. Interesting how the same actor has done a nice turn as him and as Sherlock Holmes. ;)

Hologram may in fact be the only solution given the angles. I should see if I can make my savvy roll to use the solution book now. In the day, I couldn't resolve the author's instructions.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> His flowchart has lots of Then Drink statements. <<

Yes, that's true. It occurs to me that mapping out the drinking problem on a flow chart might be helpful for Tony, because then he could work on changing one part of the decision tree at a time, and he could see how different solutions might work better in different positions.

>> "Stupid" and "annoying" are the default opposition to "is interesting enough". <<

True, but there's more to it than that. I think things cluster in different parts of the flow chart. Drinking to make people seem interesting or sexy is trying to push up a value that's too low. Drinking to tolerate stupidity or irritation is more closely related to a painkiller: trying to push down a value that's too high. So different coping mechanisms would likely be needed to replace those.

>> And yes, his mind is self-destructive when not given its proper outlet. <<

Too true, but that's also true of most genius folks I know. It takes a lot of practice -- and knowing that such things are possible -- to learn how to entertain yourself within the silence of your own mind. Or how to duck out the back door of it into another dimension.

>> Interesting how the same actor has done a nice turn as him and as Sherlock Holmes. ;) <<

I loved that. The overlap is brilliant, and has led to some awesome fanfic. But I found the movies heartbreaking to watch, especially because Sherlock sees his relationship with John as primary and John doesn't. Unrequited love doesn't hurt any less when it's queerplatonic than when it's romantic.

>> Hologram may in fact be the only solution given the angles. I should see if I can make my savvy roll to use the solution book now. In the day, I couldn't resolve the author's instructions. <<

Tricksy little thing. Maybe try looking for clearer instructions online?

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Flow charting the drinking might be a good exercise, because I do see how some of these 'false pairs' would need different patches.

I do wonder if it is so much the genius or if it's that most gifteds missed vital peer time, and another segment didn't even get play that was appropriate because of the way 'classic'/well-designed/open-ended toys are pricey and the less expensive toys are in their way 'teaching to the test' (in this case, being enthusiastic consumers).

I may be insulated because I've many Holmeses and Watsons. Holmes needs someone to bring his dead birds to.

Well, most instructions would be clearer, iirc, since they were written by the 'inventor' using higher maths.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Flow charting the drinking might be a good exercise, because I do see how some of these 'false pairs' would need different patches.<<

Yes, that matters a lot.

One thing I do often in magical/spiritual work is troubleshooting with an eye toward diagnostics. I have to identify discernible signs of what is happening, then backtrack to imagine what might cause that, then figure out which of the possible options is actually affecting this instance. Sometimes it's a mix, which is harder to pinpoint. But I focus a lot on "If A is causing B, then C will also be present. But if D is causing B, there will be E instead of C. If A is the cause, solution X will probably help; but if D is the cause, then solution Y will be better."

I'm amazed by how slopping most people's problem-solving process is. They usually don't sort the variables, and it's the variables that tend to determine which solution is needed.

>> I do wonder if it is so much the genius <<

Genius creates a higher need for stimulation. A perfectly healthy environment for an average person may be ruinous to a genius, in the same way that putting an average person in an environment tailored for toddlers or mentally handicapped people would be stultifying. Minds need challenge. Put rats in a tiny cage and they become self-destructive too.

>> or if it's that most gifteds missed vital peer time, <<

That's a big problem. They are often ostracized or downright tormented by people who don't understand them; and conversely, they may not feel a connection with other people's interests. People need friends who are on their level. Doesn't mean you can't have friends across intellectual gaps, but it's harder -- like crossing religious lines, for instance. You need some relationships that aren't so much damn work all the time.

It's right there in The Avengers with the click scene between Tony and Bruce: "FINALLY, someone who speaks English!" Clearly Tony has already gone a long way toward solving the problem and is frustrated by other people's drag on his processing -- so he's surprised and delighted to find someone working at his own speed.

And Steve goes, "Is that what just happened?" and I thought, "Wow, this Bruce really has his self-control down pat." Bruce gets back at Steve later, prodding him about how gullible he is with Fury, who Tony and Bruce have long since pegged as a liar.

>> and another segment didn't even get play that was appropriate because of the way 'classic'/well-designed/open-ended toys are pricey and the less expensive toys are in their way 'teaching to the test' (in this case, being enthusiastic consumers). <<

True. However, many gifted people soon learn how to make their own toys, or repurpose whatever they can get. Often the best toys are the simplest. I always adored things like blocks and construction toys. I like game sets where you can use the pieces in different ways.

I've started collecting block-stacking games. I look at them as sets of pieces that can be used to do a lot of different things. The different games come with their own rules, usually multiple variations; and it's easy to think up others, or mix and match them. This afternoon we tried out Bausack towers and it wasn't long before we toyed with the idea of using a mirror to see parts of the tower that were out of view. Haven't tried it yet, but could be fun.

I think Tony would have grown up with lots of terrific mind toys. He had things but very little emotional support. He was building things very early.

Bruce had a more materially deprived childhood. I think he discovered science later and it became a refuge for him. Then when he went on the run, he had the poorskills to make equipment out of junk.

Where you really see the damage is Steve. He was always both smart and wise, but didn't have the opportunity to learn how to use most of what he had. Then after Project Rebirth, he was even smarter -- but people only wanted him for his body. So he didn't realize what he could really do with his mind until he started hanging around with scientists and they taught him more advanced stuff. Steve still isn't at the level of Tony and Bruce, but I suspect he was in gifted range even before, and he's plenty capable of keeping up with the challenges of everyday superheroing even if he's not up to thermonuclear astrophysics.

Similar problem with Clint. He thinks he's stupid because he didn't get much formal education and he's not a theoretical genius. But he can work trajectories in his head and figure out just where to hit targets to achieve a desired effect. He can plan an effective raid. The deprived childhood and abuse left him with a damaged self-image that just doesn't match his real skill level. He's probably well smarter than average, even if he doesn't have the same kind or level of intelligence as the "brains" of the outfit.

The problem is, when you've got under-socialized brains and a couple of other folks who think they're stupid, that is a recipe for disaster. Some of the cockups in the movie are exactly because of that. They did manage to work around it, somewhat, because Steve has good leadership skills and Tony is good at problem-solving in general. But still, it would've been a lot easier with people not carrying avoidable damage.

>>I may be insulated because I've many Holmeses and Watsons. Holmes needs someone to bring his dead birds to.<<

Exactly! Everyone needs to be appreciated for what they do well. The whole point of having a team is to assemble different strengths to solve more problems than a single specialist could. Phil does a lot of this with the Avengers, praising people for their work and also when they make an effort at things they aren't so good at. They're learning to do it for each other, too, filling in gaps in education or experience. That helps a lot.

>>Well, most instructions would be clearer, iirc, since they were written by the 'inventor' using higher maths.<<

Math can be fun for people whose mind works along those lines. Otherwise, practical instructions are probably more use.

I have an innate anti-knack for math. I also have an acquired intuitive knack for math, which does not work at all like the logical mode that is expected. It makes life interesting. I've gotten far enough to start understanding some of the math jokes. Fancy numbers still elude me though.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Most people aren't observing in detail. Do you know Think-a-Dot? It's a marble toy (I suspect there might be 'games' but I wasn't a reader and played with it alone) with dots that can change from one color to another.

Yes, the gifted child is not served by the same things that would be challenging to the prepared child. And then there is the unprepared child getting shunted off to remedial programs that aren't subtle. I think they've started identifying chapter books that are suited for older children that need more attractive subjects as they are brought to grade level.

Over the years, I think I now understand the problem more. Small children haven't learned some of the social give and take gifteds already expect and thus cause little meltdowns in the gifted, who don't reset the same way tiny short-attention span people would. This makes the adults annoyed and label the child incorrectly. The asynchronicity is that the gifted already has expectations of an older child but not the resilency of same when scaffolding younger children.

Then there are the adults that are attracted to being the smartest person in the room and willing to be a bully when stymied by a gifted child.

I can't recall how much/what set up that Bruce has for the first meeting with Steve. By the one in the lab, I take it he knows what Tony does. Poor Steve, Fury has been treating him like a mushroom since he woke up. And while Steve's comment from someone else would be meant to be cutting, "fondue".

I've been running into evidence that parents don't know even basic things related to toys. Between the building toys they don't model and get frustrated the kids don't play with, and the expectation to perform more complex clean up without scaffolding (Neil deGrasse Tyson said something beautiful, that boiled down to "as long as they were learning, I will cheerfully clean up after my kids.")

Steve would be poorly served comparing himself to Tony and Bruce. They're head and shoulders above others in their fields. In one of my AUs I had Howard take over Steve's post-Serum testing, and using himself as chess and backgammon opponent. You know that Steve would be better at crosswords, if the clues weren't being 'cute'.

I expect that Steve read his way into General Washington's battles fairly young, and figured out just how much the land had been changed since in NYC. There might be some of his pictures still stuck in big books ;)

Someone has a story where Tony, after reviewing the ricochet method Steve has with the Shield, wants to teach Steve the math that goes to it. Probably the closest Steve got to using some of his gifts was hustling rent money when he was hardly tall enough to not need an orange crate. (Which might have resulted in him having his first cup of coffee.) I'd like stories wrote from Gabe Jones and Falsworth's povs, since I think those are the college men that would have any long term exposure to Steve 'in the day'.

Clint. That boy would have been a squirming, hungry mess until the day he just stopped being in class. Anywhere. Several people have wrote him dyslexic. And yes, he's got tape loops telling him he's stupid. Steve telling him to suit up, and in fanfic Tony expressing three-body problem appreciation, that's got to start helping. Someone has him doing some very specific college program (probably 'breezing' the hard stuff (as he's done that) and fighting the 'simple' skills.) and sequester threatening him with not getting his last semester.

Well, Steve doesn't think he's stupid, but he doesn't give himself as much credit as is due. However, 'average' and 'out of date' could be as destructive. And yes, Tony and Bruce could really whomp Steve and Clint's self-esteem. You'd need someone like Phil to give the "They make professors cry. If your ears aren't bleeding you're following well." I expect Steve's assessment of that sci-fi power panel might have cluephoned Tony. He's seen what stuff looked like even forty years ago. The "you're out of your depth and you've got a sense of humor. Let me explain this, you've used maps, I'm good."

I'll post a review when I get to doing it.

I took Calculus, and I understand but I'm not 'good at' when compared to people that ARE. Proof, I own proof. I hash the blonde joke about the short-term bank loan with car collateral because I can't remember numbers.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Most people aren't observing in detail.<<

True.

>> Do you know Think-a-Dot? It's a marble toy (I suspect there might be 'games' but I wasn't a reader and played with it alone) with dots that can change from one color to another. <<

No, I haven't seen it. We had MasterMind, though, which was a logic game.

>> Yes, the gifted child is not served by the same things that would be challenging to the prepared child. And then there is the unprepared child getting shunted off to remedial programs that aren't subtle. <<

That's why I despise putting everyone in the same classroom. Nobody learns well that way. The smart kids are bored to death, the slow kids are overwhelmed, and the average kids are distracted by everyone else's distress. And the teachers are just humped.

>> I think they've started identifying chapter books that are suited for older children that need more attractive subjects as they are brought to grade level. <<

Everyone should get attractive reading materials and other learning tools. If education is boring, painful, or useless then kids learn to hate learning. Which is about like making eaglets acrophobic. All you have to do to get kids to learn is present them with interesting opportunities at their appropriate level, preferably something they can apply to what they want to do. Kids will teach themselves advanced math so they can min-max gaming characters, for instance.

>> Over the years, I think I now understand the problem more. Small children haven't learned some of the social give and take gifteds already expect and thus cause little meltdowns in the gifted, who don't reset the same way tiny short-attention span people would. This makes the adults annoyed and label the child incorrectly. <<

Or you get gifted kids with lots of talents, but not social ones, who belt out things that would benefit from more discretion.

>> The asynchronicity is that the gifted already has expectations of an older child but not the resilency of same when scaffolding younger children. <<

Or worse, a gifted child who reaches adult range in at least some areas at a very young age, usually without the experience to use them wisely yet, and who is suppressed rather than being taught how to handle those things.

>> Then there are the adults that are attracted to being the smartest person in the room and willing to be a bully when stymied by a gifted child. <<

Frequently true. Being attacked for who you are is ruinous. Either it wrecks your self-esteem, or it makes you feel that the world is full of vicious fuckwits.

>> I can't recall how much/what set up that Bruce has for the first meeting with Steve. <<

Bruce was forcibly conscripted into the Avengers initiative. His first observation of the Helicarrier was, "You want to put ME in a pressurized metal container underwater?" And then when it took off, "Oh this is SO much worse." He was thinking something like, "These people are idiots, dangerous idiots, who are going to get themselves and other people hurt, and they are going to use me to do it with, and there is nothing I can do to stop them. I can't let the Other Guy out on purpose. I will just shut down my personality now, fuck it."

Bruce was RIGHT. He usually is. Putting him on the Helicarrier was dangerous, stupid, and also kidnapping/slavery. Of course it went wrong and people got hurt and he blamed himself. Because Fury is a dainbramaged power-tripper with delusions of competence, and Phil was ... a little too distracted to realize what a disaster was in the making.

>> By the one in the lab, I take it he knows what Tony does. Poor Steve, Fury has been treating him like a mushroom since he woke up. <<

Yeah, Steve was screwed.

>> And while Steve's comment from someone else would be meant to be cutting, "fondue". <<

It was a clear case of conversational shear. Steve was going numb from overstimulation and confusion. His comment marked the point where he just got completely lost. That's all he meant.

But to Bruce, it was a dumb jock picking on him. Bruce had already shut down everything he could. He didn't boot back up again until Tony caught his attention by talking science at him. Everyone else was just background noise; he wasn't processing with full attention. So Bruce -- who actually is a sweet and compassionate soul -- didn't notice how bad shape Steve was in, nor that Steve's comment was based on his own condition rather than Bruce.

And that's exactly the kind of problem you get when you throw together a bunch of dinged up people with manipulation instead of careful preparation. They hurt each other, and that undermines their ability to do the damn job.

>> I've been running into evidence that parents don't know even basic things related to toys. <<

Often true, although some toys these days are complicated enough to require close attention to figure them out. The good ones have age guides that explain why toys are for certain ages, so if your kid hits milestones faster, you can skip ahead. Baby and toddler toys usually have these, so if you don't know -- and most people don't know more than "no small parts" -- you can just look. Older kids, it's less explicit, except in educational toy catalogs (as I said, the good ones).

>> Between the building toys they don't model and get frustrated the kids don't play with, <<

Modeling is everything with kids. They're little copy machines; it's how nature programs them to learn. Whatever you want them to do, you do that, and they want to do it too. They don't want to do it while you walk away. They want to be with grownups doing similar things. But if you spend their toddler years peeling them off your legs while you sweep the floor, forget about teaching them at 5 or 10. You already taught them not to do stuff, not to be around you, not to follow or copy you. Now they're stuck on something else.

>> and the expectation to perform more complex clean up without scaffolding (Neil deGrasse Tyson said something beautiful, that boiled down to "as long as they were learning, I will cheerfully clean up after my kids.") <<

Great rule if you have the energy and resources for it. Sadly not everyone does. It's a big problem today that parents have to spend so much time working, there's little left for family life.

>> Steve would be poorly served comparing himself to Tony and Bruce. They're head and shoulders above others in their fields. <<

It's not just that. They have different types of intelligence. Steve has a level of bodysmarts that Tony could never match, and Bruce approaches only because Hulk has that kind too. Steve's social skills are parsecs ahead of them.

>> In one of my AUs I had Howard take over Steve's post-Serum testing, and using himself as chess and backgammon opponent. You know that Steve would be better at crosswords, if the clues weren't being 'cute'. <<

Yeah, I have Steve playing Scrabble, which is related. Steve is good at strategy but it'll take practice for him to learn how to apply that to new games.

>> I expect that Steve read his way into General Washington's battles fairly young, and figured out just how much the land had been changed since in NYC. There might be some of his pictures still stuck in big books ;) <<

That's entirely possible. Given his love of America, I think he'd love history too. The army skimped on Steve's training but he was effective in the field. He must've gotten it somewhere else, so military reading is likely.

>> Someone has a story where Tony, after reviewing the ricochet method Steve has with the Shield, wants to teach Steve the math that goes to it. <<

That makes sense. Steve, Clint, and Hulk all have a profound intuitive grasp of geometry and other math. But none of those three had access to much formal education in math, so they could probably do more with appropriate coaching. I mentioned Betty offering to teach Steve, but probably Tony and Bruce have helped too. Plus JARVIS.

>> Probably the closest Steve got to using some of his gifts was hustling rent money when he was hardly tall enough to not need an orange crate. (Which might have resulted in him having his first cup of coffee.) <<

That's my explanation for how Steve learned to cook. Cleaning and chopping and so forth would've been things he could do despite his handicaps. I figure that he and Bucky both took whatever work they could get.

>> I'd like stories wrote from Gabe Jones and Falsworth's povs, since I think those are the college men that would have any long term exposure to Steve 'in the day'. <<

Ah, that would be cool.

>>Clint. That boy would have been a squirming, hungry mess until the day he just stopped being in class. Anywhere.<<

Painfully true.

>> Several people have wrote him dyslexic. <<

It's a good fit, especially if you know that there's a strong overlap between dyslexia and ambidexterity.

>> And yes, he's got tape loops telling him he's stupid. <<

It's another problem with judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree. Nobody valued what Clint could do, until he joined the circus.

>> Steve telling him to suit up, and in fanfic Tony expressing three-body problem appreciation, that's got to start helping. Someone has him doing some very specific college program (probably 'breezing' the hard stuff (as he's done that) and fighting the 'simple' skills.) and sequester threatening him with not getting his last semester. <<

Phil must have put a lot of work into teaching Clint how to learn, how to figure out his own skills and expand them, how to connect what he is learning to what he can already do. So when I write Clint at this stage, much of the groundwork has already been laid. But he still needs to have a team around him, and smart people admiring him, to really appreciate himself. And of course, intelligence rubs off. Steve's friendliness rubs off on Tony and Bruce. Their burbling about science rubs off on Clint and Steve. Clint's practicality helps Bruce and Tony.

>> Well, Steve doesn't think he's stupid, but he doesn't give himself as much credit as is due. However, 'average' and 'out of date' could be as destructive. <<

That's true, but he compensates well; he just doesn't realize it.

>>And yes, Tony and Bruce could really whomp Steve and Clint's self-esteem. You'd need someone like Phil to give the "They make professors cry. If your ears aren't bleeding you're following well."<<

True. Once Tony and Bruce decide that Steve and Clint are worth their time then they explain more and peck less.

>> I expect Steve's assessment of that sci-fi power panel might have cluephoned Tony. He's seen what stuff looked like even forty years ago. The "you're out of your depth and you've got a sense of humor. Let me explain this, you've used maps, I'm good." <<

Tony made a pretty good catch. But Steve actually did quite well in that scene. He's trying to read across a huge gap in technological advances. Still he managed to do something like, Okay, those look like wires, and they're sticking into things, so that means they're part of circuits, and I have no idea what any of this DOES but ... "It seems to run on some kind of electricity."

>> I'll post a review when I get to doing it. <<

Cool.

>> I took Calculus, and I understand but I'm not 'good at' when compared to people that ARE. Proof, I own proof. I hash the blonde joke about the short-term bank loan with car collateral because I can't remember numbers. <<

Eh, I took some honors math because my second high school only had honors everything. Which meant we were all fucked in our bad subjects. The scary thing? I'm lucky to get the same answer three times running, and I score around 66% nationally in math, one of my worst subjects. That means 2/3 of people are worse than I am. I look at the state of the economy and wish the rest of them had the sense to go into jobs that didn't require math.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

That means 2/3 of people are worse than I am. I look at the state of the economy and wish the rest of them had the sense to go into jobs that didn't require math.

There aren't any. That's the problem, jobs have way more skillsets needed that once was the case and we're still 'accepting' of too much wastage in schooling. If I just needed to run the economy on time and ethics weren't an issue, we'd just run the numbers on the street-level gangbangers and give the head and shoulders winners a six month course.

Mastermind is fun, and I now own it, but as a kid it was a wet recess toy (indoors) and that wasn't generally long enough if people didn't know how to play.

The problem is that we've seen the bad old days, when tracking meant some kids didn't get their best. It was segregation redux. As was social passing. It would help if they acknowledged the academic and social skills explicitly and then worked on them in a unified way over the course of the school day and week. It would look radically different, and you'd have to bring class size down to 20 at the high end and change the induction of teachers.

Everyone should get attractive reading materials and other learning tools. If education is boring, painful, or useless then kids learn to hate learning. Which is about like making eaglets acrophobic.

And this is everything. If schools just kept this in mind, if the school board, the voters deciding referendums, the whole wax ball kept that in mind... In the cases where there are misfits between boys and school, this would fix it. Where there is gender bias against girls this would fix it. Kids that have been carried in the tide, are left parched, this would let you know if you were on the route to the solution or if you were keeping needed reactants apart.

Yes, gifteds is a very big tent. If they could at least get some time with rough peers, they have some chance of figuring out their social interactions. At the least they'd know if it is the joke or the way they are telling it. Knowledge without wisdom is a problem, so is wisdom in a wind tunnel.

The other problem with the fascist teacher is that they instill war crimes among the other children. The gifted child is the last acceptable scapegoat.

Fury is competent. He causes more than needful collateral damage, and has been lucky that's been excess not material needed to win. This will piss Steve off.

And that conversational sheer is what happens when you put everyone into stir.

The good ones have age guides that explain why toys are for certain ages, so if your kid hits milestones faster, you can skip ahead. Baby and toddler toys usually have these, so if you don't know -- and most people don't know more than "no small parts" -- you can just look. Older kids, it's less explicit, except in educational toy catalogs (as I said, the good ones).

And the parents I'm thinking of may never have seen such informative packaging, just as Tyson was speaking to an NPR audience that skews towards having time they can reapportion. (There is an autobiography by a fashion designer, he talks about his grandmother raising him and how she after working a full day very physically, would iron his sheets. She made the time to value him.)

Given his love of America, I think he'd love history too. The army skimped on Steve's training but he was effective in the field. He must've gotten it somewhere else, so military reading is likely.

When he unpacks at basic there are his clothes and several LARGE books. I can't resolve titles on my tv anymore than I can read the credits, but the implication that they have to do with tactics is there. I figure the serum just enhances his storage and retrieval. Which, is a lot of what improvements are on the J curve.

That makes sense. Steve, Clint, and Hulk all have a profound intuitive grasp of geometry and other math. But none of those three had access to much formal education in math, so they could probably do more with appropriate coaching.

Human sized hamster-balls and a gentle ruleset. I sense a game for them to play. *gives Phil an ocarina*

Steve needs a tee with "Ask me about *obscure bit of historic military tactics*" since he'd never wear a "All this and brains too." shirt. (Though novelty "smarty-pants" boxers...)

(I can see hashtags showing up on his gluts and pecs directing people to civic engagement. Steve, aware of how to use resources.) "Michelle Obama Approves of America the Beautiful Campaign." "Exercise is FUN-demental."

Now how to get the congress critters to play chess in the parks.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> There aren't any. That's the problem, jobs have way more skillsets needed that once was the case and we're still 'accepting' of too much wastage in schooling. <<

Most jobs really don't need a college degree though. People just tend to overcomplicate things in hopes of getting extra money.

>>If I just needed to run the economy on time and ethics weren't an issue, we'd just run the numbers on the street-level gangbangers and give the head and shoulders winners a six month course.<<

I'd like to see more meritocracy in general.

>> The problem is that we've seen the bad old days, when tracking meant some kids didn't get their best. <<

And now nobody does.

>>It would help if they acknowledged the academic and social skills explicitly and then worked on them in a unified way over the course of the school day and week. It would look radically different, and you'd have to bring class size down to 20 at the high end and change the induction of teachers.<<

The optimum class size is 10-12 as seen in some private schools, but that's more expensive than most people consider worthwhile.

>>If they could at least get some time with rough peers, they have some chance of figuring out their social interactions. At the least they'd know if it is the joke or the way they are telling it. Knowledge without wisdom is a problem, so is wisdom in a wind tunnel.<<

True. You need to get something out of social interaction to make it worth the effort. If people around you are much less intelligent, and interesting in things you consider pointless, if they're also afraid of you or mocking you, there's no reward for trying. They're never going to like you no matter what you do, and the boredom is unbearable. So it's no wonder gifted kids creep away to enjoy their own company. But put them together and ...

... this one time, at band camp?

Things actually happen for them.

>>The other problem with the fascist teacher is that they instill war crimes among the other children. The gifted child is the last acceptable scapegoat.<<

Don't forget that fat people are still considered legitimate targets too.

>> Fury is competent. <<

My standards are higher. I've known too many people like that, and they don't have nearly as high a success rate as they like to pretend.

>> He causes more than needful collateral damage, and has been lucky that's been excess not material needed to win. This will piss Steve off. <<

Particularly when the damage is to Steve's people. He'll let you pick on him. Pick on his friends and you're buying a new desk.

Not to mention how protective Hulk has gotten. Nice Helicarrier you've got there, shame if anything happened to it. Again.

>>And that conversational sheer is what happens when you put everyone into stir.<<

Too true. But the Avengers are learning better communication skills now.

>>When he unpacks at basic there are his clothes and several LARGE books. I can't resolve titles on my tv anymore than I can read the credits, but the implication that they have to do with tactics is there. I figure the serum just enhances his storage and retrieval. Which, is a lot of what improvements are on the J curve.<<

Well, Steve was sick a lot in childhood. What else was he going to do? Reading and playing board games would have been the logical choices, along with art. Things that don't require physical strength or stamina, but rely on the mind instead. Smart becomes genius, good memory becomes eidetic, creative becomes artisan, clever planning becomes master strategist.

>> (I can see hashtags showing up on his gluts and pecs directing people to civic engagement. Steve, aware of how to use resources.) "Michelle Obama Approves of America the Beautiful Campaign." "Exercise is FUN-demental." <<

I'll see if I can work in something like this. That's cute. No wonder his butt's trending on Twitter.

>>Now how to get the congress critters to play chess in the parks.<<

Presumably the ones in the pocket of Professor X and Magneto are already doing that. Hopefully on different days.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Have you read The Credential Society: A Historical Sociology of Education and Stratification?

College is for a lot of things; it's being asked to do things it's not designed for. And scorned for things it has hands down/

On about any criteria there is a 'young tough' that's worth three 'born on third base'. it's getting the right mix of checkmarks that's so difficult. Sadly, that's considered a feature not a bug.

>> The problem is that we've seen the bad old days, when tracking meant some kids didn't get their best. <<

And now nobody does.

Not without the right zipcode, anyway.

20 would feel like crazy talk to too many, they'd have an utter fit at 10-12.

Don't forget that fat people are still considered legitimate targets too.

Touche. Did you hear Writers' Almanac today?

It's not social interaction if things are as ill-balanced as all that. It's a situation that needs peacekeepers to step in.

No thoughts about human sized hamster balls?

It would be interesting to see Steve once he's got his 21st century legs tangle with Magneto, hearts and minds. (He'd piss Erik off by faking up a steamwood version of the Shield.)

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Have you read The Credential Society: A Historical Sociology of Education and Stratification? <<

No, but it sounds interesting.

>>College is for a lot of things; it's being asked to do things it's not designed for. And scorned for things it has hands down.<<

Sadly so.

>> Touche. Did you hear Writers' Almanac today? <<

No.

>> It's not social interaction if things are as ill-balanced as all that. It's a situation that needs peacekeepers to step in. <<

It's social interaction, just negative instead of positive. It teaches smart kids that their options are to play dumb, be picked on, or be alone.

And then people wonder where mad scientists and supervillains come from.

>> No thoughts about human sized hamster balls? <<

I'm not sure that one would work in this context.

>> It would be interesting to see Steve once he's got his 21st century legs tangle with Magneto, hearts and minds. (He'd piss Erik off by faking up a steamwood version of the Shield.) <<

That could be entertaining. I like the idea of an ironwood shield. It wouldn't be as effective as the vibranium overall, but far more useful in a fight against the Master of Metal.

Re: Yay!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

It should be a book you can get from the library, it's one a lot of people have read.

for the poem that I was thinking of:
read

Well, it is almost an argument that people are inherently good that there aren't more mad scientists and supervillains.

No Hulk nudging people around a field?

Just not having the actual Shield to be used against them would be a big help. Magneto would be livid until he realizes Steve has substituted a wood one without any rivets.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> for the poem that I was thinking of:
read <<

Yeah, gifted people usually don't want to go back to an environment that sucked for them.

>> Well, it is almost an argument that people are inherently good that there aren't more mad scientists and supervillains. <<

People aren't inherently good. The vast majority are context-driven. What usually happens is that good and evil average out. But if you get a cluster of slightly bad people reinforcing each other, they can run to horrific evil surprisingly fast. Good can be reinforced too, but it tends to have a slower effect.

>>No Hulk nudging people around a field?<<

It would be challenging to do safely. There are places that will roll people downhill in giant balls. But inside a ball, your ability to balance and protect yourself are hampered.

>> Just not having the actual Shield to be used against them would be a big help. Magneto would be livid until he realizes Steve has substituted a wood one without any rivets. <<

Heh.

Re: Yay!

[pinkrangerv]

CONTEXT-DRIVEN MORALITY, of course, that makes SO MUCH SENSE, how did I not figure that out? Holy heck THANK YOU THAT MAKES PEOPLE MAKE MORE SENSE NOW.

Re: Yay!

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm glad I could help.

Be careful if you decide to research that, though. The studies are scary. The Stanford Prison Experiment is a classic example.

[antivol.livejournal.com]

It strikes me that in fanfiction, Tony often seems to be traumatized by his father's negligence (and that is bad enough in itself), but not that much by Obie's manipulations and treason. What Phil implies in the last part seems very likely to me, if montruous. Obie was a monstruous, manipulating, condescending bastard. And big, too, older and bigger than Tony. He had a lot of power over Tony, and was supposed to be the "good parent",after Howard's failure. I wonder how Tony can still be fonctional after such a betrayal, such cruelty, and probably years (decades?) of manipulation (brainwashing?).
That said, great chapter : )!

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

There seems to be a certain resiliency to Starks that lets them invent all night, drive fast and do grueling things like drink too much and forget to eat.

And yes. the way Obie was getting in his space... Getting loomed like that, like he's been trained to accept it...

Pepper may be kicking herself for not seeing it earlier.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>There seems to be a certain resiliency to Starks that lets them invent all night, drive fast and do grueling things like drink too much and forget to eat.<<

That's true, although I suspect it plays into their poor decision-making habits.

The one that impressed me the most? Tony throwing up on the jet at the beginning of Iron Man 2, then suiting up for the expo and performing just fine. He's clearly got years of experience in doing his job while drunk and/or hungover.

>>And yes. the way Obie was getting in his space... Getting loomed like that, like he's been trained to accept it...<<

It's extremely revealing when someone as rich and powerful as Tony lets another person dominate him that visibly. I think Obie did train him, because so much of that amounts to tactile cues, steering Tony around. Huh. And I would bet that Obie knew Tony was touch-dominant, and used it against him. Fucker.

>> Pepper may be kicking herself for not seeing it earlier. <<

Yeah, I bet. But Obie was the dangerous kind of sociopath, capable of pretending excellently to be a sane and charming individual. Kind of like a rattlesnake's sand-colored camouflage.

Re: Yes...

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Oh, I didn't say it made them sensible. It just encourages them. Do not try this at home, that is a Stark. They're like Hong Kong stuntmen. They don't need a closed course. You'll wish it wasn't your commute.

"Dying of palladium poisoning? I've been self-poisoning for years. I can do my job, g-forces be damned."

That is about the only way to control a Stark. Of course, you could just get them to buy in and step back, but that's work.

Exactly. The ones whose smiles don't drop, those are the ones you can't even watch for.

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Oh, I didn't say it made them sensible. It just encourages them. Do not try this at home, that is a Stark. <<

*laugh* I actually have, in my notes, Tony's alternate phrasing for that: "Study FIRST, and THEN do science to it!"

>> They're like Hong Kong stuntmen. They don't need a closed course. You'll wish it wasn't your commute. <<

My description of Mexico City was, "where the lane lines are somewhere between vague suggestion and idle decoration."

>> "Dying of palladium poisoning? I've been self-poisoning for years. I can do my job, g-forces be damned." <<

I honestly think liver-of-steel is one reason Tony lasted so long under those conditions. His body was used to processing all kinds of crap, and his mind was used to compensating for high levels of impairment.

>> That is about the only way to control a Stark. Of course, you could just get them to buy in and step back, but that's work. <<

Yep. I figured Obie for a lazy sod.

>> Exactly. The ones whose smiles don't drop, those are the ones you can't even watch for. <<

*ponder* Which may be part of how Tony got such epic skills at fooling people. He had a genius role model ready at hand. Obie probably taught him at least some of that for dealing with the press and potential buyers. "Tell people what they want to hear, my boy, and they'll give you anything you ask!"

Then Natalie Rushman showed up, rather prejudiced to think poorly of Tony Stark already ... and she swallowed the narcissist routine hook, line, and sinker.

Re: Yes...

[pinkrangerv]

See, I've MET narcissists. Tony is...exactly the opposite. He SCREAMS 'I have high empathy' all over the place--Natasha simply SHOULDN'T have been fooled. I think the writers just took her OOC there (or, as I've seen suggested, Fury just mocked up 'Natasha's' suggestions to reverse-psychology Tony into wanting to be an Avenger).

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> It strikes me that in fanfiction, Tony often seems to be traumatized by his father's negligence (and that is bad enough in itself), <<

That's true.

>> but not that much by Obie's manipulations and treason. <<

Sometimes. I've seen plenty of authors ignore the impact of that. I've also seen some who play it up. Honestly, I think it was the betrayal of Yinsen and Obie that really broke Tony into smithereens. Tony hadn't known Yinsen very long, but trusted him enough to follow his lead; and Yinsen basically committed suicide on him. Tony had looked to Obie as a replacement father figure; and Obie used him, violated him, and tried to murder him. It was Obie who broke Tony's trust in himself. What Howard did was awful, and the damage is clear -- the messed up relationship with Steve, the nagging sense of inadequacy -- but child-love notwithstanding, it seems that Tony never trusted Howard. that limits the potential damage somewhat.

After Obie, it's a wonder that Tony is functional at all. That's probably due to JARVIS being half of Iron Man and the whole botfamily shoring up Tony when he falls apart.

>> What Phil implies in the last part seems very likely to me, if montruous. <<

That was something I worked my way back to from canon. How do we get to a point where Obie has enough power to paralyze JARVIS? Obie isn't smart enough to outhack the two best coders on the planet. So he had to trick Tony into giving him that kind of power. Tony doesn't just feel violated for his own sake, which was bad enough; he also feels like a parent who let an abuser get hold of their kid.

>> Obie was a monstruous, manipulating, condescending bastard. And big, too, older and bigger than Tony. <<

Yes, exactly. A lot of that shows in the movie -- how Obie leans over Tony, grabs him and pulls him around. Those are dominating motions often used by abusers or harassers. Tony is so rich and influential, it's easy to overlook; but there's Obie, way bigger than Tony who is nearly petite, just looming over the top of him. And I don't think it's an accident that Pepper had to be the one to push the button and kill Obie. As much as Obie and Tony were fighting ... it would have been really hard for Tony to carry that fight 100% with all the hooks Obie had in him.

>> He had a lot of power over Tony, and was supposed to be the "good parent",after Howard's failure. <<

That is precisely why Obie's betrayal cut so deep. It was meant to fill the gap. Obie reads like a true sociopath, the kind who showers an intended victim with gifts and attention to hook them ... and then the evil comes out and the abuse starts. It's horrible. I think this is why some fanwriters take a sexual abuse interpretation. It's not where I went for this series, but there sure is foundation for it.

>> I wonder how Tony can still be fonctional after such a betrayal, such cruelty, and probably years (decades?) of manipulation (brainwashing?). <<

It must have been decades. Howard and Maria died when Tony was 17. Tony was too young to lead the company on his own then. The implication is that Obie ran the business while grooming Tony to take over. That's a tremendous amount of influence. Yes, I'd call it brainwashing. I think Obie enabled and encouraged a lot of Tony's bad habits. Part of what makes it possible for Tony to recover now is just being away from that awful influence.

That Tony can trust Phil, not just on a personal level, but to try again to find loving guidance and fill the gaps ... is part of what makes Tony a hero. He seems to have an indelible sense that things can be fixed. But it doesn't take much for Tony to flinch out of reach.

That explains a lot of what set him off regarding Bucky; too close to the past damage, and Tony hadn't granted Bucky that kind of authority. It's a communication mishap at heart, based on insufficient coverage of the parameters and the fact that deep emotional discussions aren't a strong suit for either Bucky or Tony.

>> That said, great chapter : )! <<

Thank you! I'm glad you liked it.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Obie was a pimp. He groomed Tony, encouraged him towards bigger and badder weapons systems. He acted as regent or vizier. Then on top of the above board sales (which can be extrapolated to oil states by set dressing ala walk by extras) he sold it to high bid baddies. Obie laid the groundwork when Tony was a child. And, I expect he pulled as much of this on Howard as he could (he probably came on as a wingman/pour me in the car and moved up on his aid and abet covering when Howard was too hungover, and dealing with petty details Howard hated. Skimming all the way?)

And then he thought he could get Tony killed on the cheap.

I will admit sometimes I niggle about Phil's motivations. Not because I think he's out for anything other than the team to be more sane than they currently are after being rocked, socked and tossed in drawers, just because I distrust anyone having the sort of power and attachments Phil is forming.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Obie was a pimp. <<

Absolutely. There are very strong sexual parallels to the relationship, visible in canon. It shows in the way Obie physically dominates Tony, digging into his shoulders, moving and turning him, looming over him, etc. It also comes on very strong with the arc reactor, which is an unmistakable linga-yoni symbol. The scene with Obie paralyzing Tony and ripping out the arc reactor is a spectacular violation, and a very close analog of rape. Remember that pimps usually consider themselves to have free reign of their "goods" and you can see why that scene is there.

>> He groomed Tony, encouraged him towards bigger and badder weapons systems. He acted as regent or vizier. <<

Exactly. I don't think Obie liked too much attention. He wanted to be the man behind the curtain, with someone else as the front.

>> Then on top of the above board sales (which can be extrapolated to oil states by set dressing ala walk by extras) he sold it to high bid baddies. <<

Yes.

>> Obie laid the groundwork when Tony was a child. <<

I think that's what made the damage so deep. Obie got in before all of Tony's defenses were developed enough to protect himself effectively -- and Obie also played on Tony's vulnerability due to Howard's neglect. Which Obie doubtless facilitated. He picked his victims with consummate skill and ...

... oh. There's another reason for the extreme difference between early-Howard and late-Howard. On top of the war trauma and probable Tesseract damage, we also have Obie's manipulation. Obie worked a lot like the damn energy gradient, encouraging everything toward his own interest. It would have been so easy for Obie to manipulate Howard in ways that compounded the damage rather than healing it, for the sake of pursuing Obie's own goals instead of Howard's best interests. Which is frankly like what Department X did to Bucky, taking advantage of a wounded soldier to brainwash him into a tool and weapon.

>> And, I expect he pulled as much of this on Howard as he could (he probably came on as a wingman/pour me in the car and moved up on his aid and abet covering when Howard was too hungover, and dealing with petty details Howard hated. <<

I think that's how Obie got his foot in the door. He was a master enabler as well as a manipulator. So long as Howard's vices benefited Obie, then Obie was happy to encourage them. While other people would've discouraged Howard from indulging, Obie would be there with, "Shh, don't listen to them, sir. Of course you deserve a break. They just don't understand how hard it is. Go ahead and have a drink to settle your nerves. You'll feel better, and I'll make sure nobody bothers you until you're ready to deal with them." Obie gave Howard what he wanted, in direct opposition to what he needed.

>> Skimming all the way?) <<

I would assume so, since canon portrays Obie as a skinflint. People like that are rarely satisfied with what they have; they want more.

>> And then he thought he could get Tony killed on the cheap. <<

That's another thing that makes me think Obie was really in it for the money, more than power or anything else. Clearly he got off on power, but I think it was more interpersonal than institutional. The money is where Obie really cut corners where he shouldn't, and that suggests a deep personality flaw that he couldn't control, because it undermined his own goals.

>> I will admit sometimes I niggle about Phil's motivations. Not because I think he's out for anything other than the team to be more sane than they currently are after being rocked, socked and tossed in drawers, just because I distrust anyone having the sort of power and attachments Phil is forming. <<

It's well worth keeping an eye on, because that much trust does leave an opening for misuse of power. Some things to consider ...

* How Phil handles the power he is given. He uses it to everyone's best advantage, not primarily for personal gratification. He also pulls back if he thinks someone is offering more than is safe. This is one difference between canon and series: in canon, Phil is a lot more cavalier with people's boundaries. But Tony tolerates him anyway, and Tony destroys his enemies, so there must be something more to Phil than meets the eye.

* How Phil responds when he lets someone down, or believes that he has. He doesn't brush it off. He mentally flogs himself for not doing a better job. Then he tries to figure out how to repair the damage and prevent a similar problem in the future.

* Who has what kind of influence over whom. Phil has institutional power by being the Avengers' handler. That's power by consent; they have an obligation to obey him as long as that relationship holds, but they could quit. Phil has relational power by virtue of ageplay; he pitched the idea and his team accepted it. He holds that as long as they choose to let him.

Several Avengers hold physical power; Steve, Bucky, and Hulk can't readily be coerced on a physical level. Phil has BAMF skills but is still an unmodified human. Captain America holds a weight of moral and ideological power that very little else can match; if Steve pushes using that, Phil yields. That fact that the Phil&Steve relationship is not abusive has far more to do with Steve's innate goodness than Phil's frankly trivial ability to say no to his hero. Phil is all but defenseless, and there's a glimpse of that in canon when they first meet and poor Phil drops into puppydog mode. And Steve, with nearly nonexistent training in this sphere, has no idea how to catch him, so Phil faceplants. Owie. Yet they still manage to patch up that relationship eventually.

* How Phil reacts when other people push his own boundaries. He drags his feet, but if the other person is right, Phil will give in. This is crucial, because abusers WON'T do that. They are utterly invested in holding all the power. The fact that Phil allows other people to overrule him sometimes is an indication of a balanced relationship.

Who leads may depend on who has relevant skills (like Bruce insisting that Phil go to bed, because Bruce knows the signs of physical exhaustion) or who is in better shape at the time (like Steve being able to help Phil after a bad mission, because what went wrong hurt Steve a lot less than it did Phil). It's not all one way. There's give and take, balance and exchange, mutual support and caring. This isn't just proof of a healthy relationship; it's also what keeps Phil from burning out.

* Behavior parallels. It's not just Phil pushing and Tony balking. Phil tends to drag his feet when other people are pushing him to take care of himself, or let them take care of him. He knows what it feels like, to want or need something, but not be able to let go. That makes it more possible for Phil to sense where and how to push, or not to push, when it's his turn on the upper hand. This matches traditions in the kink community about not using a toy on someone else that you haven't first tested on yourself, and how the best tops have experience as bottoms. It really makes a difference.

* Outcomes. Even in canon when Phil was being a lot more coercive with Tony, things worked out sort of okay. In series, when Phil is being more gentle, the results are even better. After the advent of game night, Tony is doing a lot better. He still has a drinking problem, but it's not as bad because now he has people who are more effective at convincing him not to get drunk and hurt himself. He still has emotional damage, but he's got people to cry on or suggest solutions. What works has benefits.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

After the advent of game night, Tony is doing a lot better. He still has a drinking problem, but it's not as bad because now he has people who are more effective at convincing him not to get drunk and hurt himself.

He's gotten a new answer besides self-medicating, relationships that actually relieve the problems.

Yes, there are many things that make Phil much less creepy than could be the case for this set up. Flip helps a lot, because we see how he finds it useful to step away from adult responsibilities and accept the comfort that's encoded as for kids.

That fact that the Phil&Steve relationship is not abusive has far more to do with Steve's innate goodness than Phil's frankly trivial ability to say no to his hero.

Yes. Serious power imbalance, counter to the more visible age one (well, age they look. For Cap his own is just a number.)

Re Obie: While IM3 isn't canon for this series, it just completes the mirroring that Aldrich and Mandarin are doing of Tony (and Obie)

I think that Pepper was the one to push the button apt since he was the anti-Pepper

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> He's gotten a new answer besides self-medicating, relationships that actually relieve the problems. <<

Yes, that's true. Tony has people who encourage him to try healthier coping skills, and who offer comfort when he's upset. It doesn't always work for him, but the success rate is still a lot higher than what he had before.

>> Yes, there are many things that make Phil much less creepy than could be the case for this set up. <<

That's good to hear.

>> Flip helps a lot, because we see how he finds it useful to step away from adult responsibilities and accept the comfort that's encoded as for kids. <<

I think "love is for children" applies to Phil too. He's good at giving comfort and guidance, but much less good at receiving. When things get really bad, he tends to "jam" and need help to get loose again. I think that goes with his very reserved outward appearance. If you stay calm by cramming things down inside, sometimes you ram down a big enough piece that it's going to stick.

>> Yes. Serious power imbalance, counter to the more visible age one (well, age they look. For Cap his own is just a number.) <<

That's one reason Steve looks up to Phil, because Phil has lived through more years. Steve's age is more than just a number; the shear is fundamental to his current character. He really is "the man out of time." Because despite his lived years, his generational stamp is older; he doesn't act or feel like a modern person of the same lived-age. Steve has temporal seniority and some people respond to that, kind of like his tendency to respond to lived-seniority. It makes things very complicated.

>> Re Obie: While IM3 isn't canon for this series, it just completes the mirroring that Aldrich and Mandarin are doing of Tony (and Obie) <<

True. I do borrow bits from IM3 because that movie played up things that were only hinted in earlier movies, like the panic attacks and the nightmares.

>> I think that Pepper was the one to push the button apt since he was the anti-Pepper <<

Good point.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Because despite his lived years, his generational stamp is older; he doesn't act or feel like a modern person of the same lived-age.

Right, his age and his cohort are separate things. I let Bruce observe some signs in Assemble (it's a retelling of The Avengers with my still short, still super-soldier Steve who didn't go down with the plane. Ah, to be in the merchant marines and fish out someone that can draw pin-ups.) related to that. But he's not 'really' 92, he's a 25 year old time traveller. The fact he did his time travel one day after another is more oddity.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Right, his age and his cohort are separate things. <<

It bugs me when people overlook that, and a surprising number of fanfic writers do. Core piece of the character and they handwave it rather often. I can't imagine writing Steve without paying attention to the temporal shear.

>> I let Bruce observe some signs in Assemble (it's a retelling of The Avengers with my still short, still super-soldier Steve who didn't go down with the plane. Ah, to be in the merchant marines and fish out someone that can draw pin-ups.) related to that.<<

*laugh* I love that motif, the pin-ups.

>> But he's not 'really' 92, he's a 25 year old time traveller. The fact he did his time travel one day after another is more oddity. <<

Yeah, I think stories about time travel would spook the hell out of Steve. He really put himself in the gutter on that one. The worst possible time to land is just before everyone from your time would have died. So he's lost everyone he knew, but there are still some folks from that time left alive. It's living memory -- but it's forever out of reach. Jump ahead 200 years or so, it's actually easier to adapt.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

For Steve it might have been worse to come back during Nixon. Think about it, Howard's possibly a new father and Steve's still Uncle Sam's and Dick is commander in chief.

Oh, Steve has inspired much with a bit of charcoal or a nub of pencil. In one of my stories I had him 'make it up' to a bomber by giving her the best belle in the flight. (Never try using a huge man in a belly bomber bay to film a PSA.) [That's from my Seven Days AU]

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> For Steve it might have been worse to come back during Nixon. Think about it, Howard's possibly a new father and Steve's still Uncle Sam's and Dick is commander in chief. <<

O_O "Don't cross the streams. That would be ... bad."

>> Oh, Steve has inspired much with a bit of charcoal or a nub of pencil. In one of my stories I had him 'make it up' to a bomber by giving her the best belle in the flight. (Never try using a huge man in a belly bomber bay to film a PSA.) [That's from my Seven Days AU] <<

I love Steve's artistic side. I'd like to do more with that.

[yamx]

I wonder if it was that sinister (not that I wouldn't put t past Obie), or if Obie just used a situation to his advantage. Because it is a valid technique, only it should be one of several, in balance, and as part of a larger approach to relationship maintenance. If Tony just glomped onto that one bit of the seminar and ignored everything else...

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I wonder if it was that sinister (not that I wouldn't put t past Obie), or if Obie just used a situation to his advantage. <<

Obie was always a groomer. He always wanted things from Tony, not necessarily in Tony's best interest. I suspect that watching Tony's endless cascade of public relations disasters would have given Obie the idea to look for ways of using that to his own advantage. This was just one opportunity to slip in something that would benefit Obie at Tony's expense. It may not have been the first thing he tried ...

>> Because it is a valid technique, only it should be one of several, in balance, and as part of a larger approach to relationship maintenance. If Tony just glomped onto that one bit of the seminar and ignored everything else... <<

... but this was the one that made sense to Tony, in a social arena where not much did, so he glommed onto it. Of course the technique works better in balance. Obie cared fuckall about balance, and Tony wouldn't know balance if it bopped him over the head.

Re: Well...

[yamx]

Yes, but my point was, did Obie understand Tony well enough to predict ahead of time that Tony would glom onto that one technique, which Obie could use to his own advantage, in preference of all the others in the packet?

Re: Well...

[ysabetwordsmith]

Obie knew Tony's thought pattern. The revelation technique could easily be seen as "balancing accounts." So Obie would have expected it to appeal to Tony, probably without the other techniques for variety. Obie also knew how he could benefit from this at Tony's expense. It wasn't a guarantee, but it was a good bet -- and it paid off for Obie.