Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 13

[ysabetwordsmith]

This story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."

Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.

Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12. Skip to Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19.


"Hide and Seek" Part 13


Phil came back to himself very gradually. Bruce's voice plucked and pulled at him now, tugging him up toward the surface of his awareness. Phil realized that he was lying on his back with his head pillowed in Bruce's lap. He felt like he was floating on the soft thick mat. It was nice to use those for the deeper relaxation exercises, rather than the thinner yoga mats they preferred for poses that needed stability.

Phil didn't really feel like waking up, though. He liked the warm floating sensation. He didn't want to leave it for a harsher and more demanding world. Bruce's thumbs trailed down his ribs, not tickling, but digging into sensitive spots. Phil huffed in protest. He didn't move. Maybe Bruce would give up.

"JARVIS, please say something to Phil," Bruce requested.

"I am fully recovered, Phil. I regret upsetting you," said JARVIS.

That grabbed Phil's attention and brought him scrambling out of Bruce's lap. "Easy," Bruce said as he pressed a steadying hand to Phil's back. "Get up slowly so you don't make yourself dizzy."

"I'm fine, Bruce," said Phil, climbing to his feet. The foam mat shifted under his weight. He really wanted to go back upstairs and have words with JARVIS and Tony. "JARVIS, I'm glad you're all right."

"Don't wind yourself up again," Bruce murmured. His hands kneaded softly at Phil's shoulders. "Stay calm and relaxed. You'll do a better job of sorting through everything this way. Okay?"

"Okay, yes, thank you for helping," Phil said.

"Anytime," Bruce said. He patted Phil's back, giving him a gentle nudge toward the door.

"Where are you going, Phil?" asked JARVIS on the way to the elevator.

"Back to my quarters," Phil replied. "I need to speak with you and Tony about what happened this morning, and yesterday too. Please ask him to come up when he's ready."

"Very well, Phil," said JARVIS. The elevator sighed open and then closed again.

The lift and push of the carriage against Phil's feet felt subtly different with JARVIS in control. The automatic version earlier had seemed flat and mechanical in contrast. Phil hadn't realized it before, but he appreciated the enigmatic difference of being cupped in JARVIS' grasp. It wasn't just Tony who trusted his life to that confident touch. They all did it, every time they stepped into an elevator or walked through a door or went past any of the countless aspects of the tower that JARVIS controlled. Phil had never been so aware of being inside another person's body. He wondered if Tony felt the same way about wearing the Iron Man suit.

"It's good to have you back, JARVIS. I missed you," Phil said, pressing his palm against the brushed steel of the elevator. Phil had never been so grateful to be here, held safe in a friend's grip with the smooth familiar voice right where it belonged.

"Thank you, Phil. I apologize for the interruption in service," said JARVIS.

"That's not what I meant," Phil clarified. "I was concerned about you, not annoyed by the inconvenience of doing things for myself. You're my friend, JARVIS, as much as Tony is. I worry about my friends when things go wrong for them." He stroked the cool wall under his hand, fingertips tracing the edge of the touchscreen above the manual controls. Suddenly Phil understood more about why Bucky reached out the way he did when speaking with JARVIS. Friends touched each other. JARVIS surrounded them with the splendid tower of his body, always underfoot, but hands were more personal and more intimate. A deliberate touch was a recognition, a gesture of affection.

"... but I was never in any danger," JARVIS said. His voice held a hesitant note.

"We'll talk about that with Tony," said Phil.

"You sound like Bruce. We exchanged a few messages before he roused you," JARVIS said.

"I'll take that as a compliment. He's very compassionate," Phil said.

"Your floor, Phil," JARVIS said softly. The elevator doors opened. "Sir is on his way." Pause. "... he also expressed a considerable amount of concern over me."

"Of course he did, he loves you," Phil said. He settled in his living room this time. He wanted a cozier, comforting environment this time. Besides, none of them needed to go back into that den today.

When Tony arrived, he looked terrible. His eyes were red and swollen from crying, his cheeks raw. "Hey, Phil," he said. His voice sounded ragged too.

"Hello, Tony. Would you like to wash your face first? I think you'll feel a bit better if you rinse off the salt," Phil said, waving him toward the bathroom.

Tony didn't even protest. He just went, uncharacteristically subdued. He came back five minutes later, somewhat more refreshed.

Phil turned his palms forward and lifted his hands very slightly away from his sides, showing that hugs were available if wanted. He would let Tony set the pace and spacing of the meeting. Tony hesitated, then came to him. Phil embraced him carefully. Tony was trembling a little under his rumpled, sweaty clothes. He pulled away after a few moments.

"Have you eaten, or are you hungry now? We could have a snack before we get into the messy conversational stuff," Phil offered.

Tony shook his head. "I haven't had anything solid. Don't think I could keep it down yet. Maybe by lunchtime."

"All right, it's your body; you know it better than I do," Phil said.

"So, uh ... JARVIS and I talked some, after I brought him back online," Tony said. He kneaded his hands together, trying to soothe muscles probably cramped from typing.

"I'm glad to hear that," Phil said. He sat down on the couch, inviting Tony to join him with a pat on the cushion. "What did you cover?"

Tony settled next to Phil. "Yesterday's false alarm over my disappearance and the mess that caused. The importance of not slicing yourself wide open. How not-okay it is to hide injuries," he said, ticking them off on his fingers.

"While I have some counterpoints regarding the first two items, we are in complete agreement about the third," said Phil as he echoed the ticking motions. "I'm proud of you for remembering that, Tony."

* * *

Notes:

Yoga mats are thin and firm, typically 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick. They provide grip and stability with a little padding. Soft foam mats used for tumbling and other exercises are thicker, often 1-2 inches. The 2-inch folding mats are comfortable to lie on for a while; yoga mats, not so much. The yoga room has a variety of mats for different purposes.

Bruce has a wonderful, soothing voice. What he does with people is not exactly hypnosis, but it is a version of trancework and you can see similarities to common exercises. Once people get into a deeply relaxed state, it feels terrific, and sometimes they don't want to come back. There are steps for waking someone from trance. Bruce uses a combination of hands and words for this. The last thing he tries is one that I've never seen fail: a call from someone to whom the person's attention is especially attuned. I've seen a parent pop out of trance instantly on hearing their child's voice.

It helps to discuss problems while calm. There are tips for having a difficult conversation.

Phil and JARVIS are exploring matters of trust and intimacy. Trust is an emotion of faith; trustworthiness is founded on actions of responsibility and empathy. Building trust can be especially challenging for neurovariant people. Intimacy is a mutual exchange of vulnerability to deepen a connection, which may be experienced through the emotions and/or bodies. Emotional intimacy focuses on sharing feelings that are often hidden, to know each other better. Asexual people, as JARVIS is, may crave physical intimacy free of sexual aspects, which can be challenging to achieve with others who are sexual. However, there are many nonsexual ways to touch and lots of other nonsexual intimacies. Consider how many of those JARVIS already shares with his people. This is one reason why he gets so attached and protective of people who move through his space: they start to feel like a part of himself. Conversely, some people come to treat him the same way; look at how soon Bucky learns to rely on JARVIS as a prosthetic memory. That's a tremendous amount of mental intimacy.

Friendship is one form of intimate relationship. Love is a deep level of fondness that need not be sexual. Frientimacy is the bond of thorough, tender knowledge that unites friends. A solid friendship rests on acceptance, understanding, trust, and altruism. Friends help each other; striving to improve someone else's mood cultivates feelings of trust and affection, and also tends to improve your own mood. Sharing private information builds trust and intimacy between friends. There are ways to heal broken trust and to build stronger friendships.

Compassion, caring, and sharing are important qualities in a good friend. It's natural to worry when things go wrong; indeed, a little worry can make you a better friend and employee. If you notice warning signs, then you may become concerned about a friend and want to help. There are specific resources for such issues as self-harm, alcohol abuse, and other mental health concerns. Of course, too much worry can become a problem of its own; there are ways to stop that.

Affectionate communication can help people identify and process their feelings. Bruce and Natasha have varying degrees of alexithymia, difficulty describing emotions; but Tony sometimes has trouble sorting out his feelings, and anyone may find it challenging when upset. Welcoming body language and mirroring motions help invite a connection. Compassionate body language has a distinctive look that people can recognize. Compare open vs. closed body language and learn to look approachable. Phil uses opening gestures to signal that contact is acceptable but not obligatory, and small motions to keep the pressure low. It's a way of reminding Tony that Phil won't push him without a good reason -- or abandon him after a conflict.


[To be continued in Part 14 ...]

Comments

[yamx]

I'm proud of Tony, too, for remembering those points--and for having what clearly must have been a difficult conversation with JARVIS of his own accord.

I do hope the three of them together can sort out a bit more of this mess.

*sighs* I just knew he'd be in terrible shape when he came back upstairs. :(

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I'm proud of Tony, too, for remembering those points-- <<

He's making progress. Sometimes it's easier to see a lesson when someone else is demonstrating it, than to see it for yourself.

>> and for having what clearly must have been a difficult conversation with JARVIS of his own accord. <<

Oh yeah. All the hurty hurtness in that discussion. But Tony had to talk it out, because he was too miserable to hold it in, blaming himself the way he did. You can see bits of this in canon with Pepper: sometimes if you hit him just right, he grovels, saying whatever he can think of as fast as he can in hopes that something will be the right thing to have said.

>> I do hope the three of them together can sort out a bit more of this mess. <<

They will. They spend a lot of time working through various layers of it.

>> *sighs* I just knew he'd be in terrible shape when he came back upstairs. :( <<

Alas, that was inevitable. Tony has very limited methods of self-soothing. Without anyone to help buffer his emotions, he tends to get run over flat. The main thing that kept him from total meltdown was that he had a task requiring tight focus, and engineering is one of his coping methods. But engineering is in the 'distraction' category -- which means that, once he stops, the giant pile of emotional shit falls right back on top of him.

Re: Yes...

[yamx]

***He's making progress. Sometimes it's easier to see a lesson when someone else is demonstrating it, than to see it for yourself.***
I think it's because it's easier to see what you're doing to other people when you yourself are the other people.

***Oh yeah. All the hurty hurtness in that discussion. But Tony had to talk it out, because he was too miserable to hold it in, blaming himself the way he did. You can see bits of this in canon with Pepper: sometimes if you hit him just right, he grovels, saying whatever he can think of as fast as he can in hopes that something will be the right thing to have said***

Yes, like at the beginning of IM3. :(

And when he talked to JARVIS, he cried, and JARVIS must have felt awful, too, and... *heart breaks*

***They will. They spend a lot of time working through various layers of it.***
Good. *looks forward*

***Alas, that was inevitable. Tony has very limited methods of self-soothing. Without anyone to help buffer his emotions, he tends to get run over flat. The main thing that kept him from total meltdown was that he had a task requiring tight focus, and engineering is one of his coping methods. But engineering is in the 'distraction' category -- which means that, once he stops, the giant pile of emotional shit falls right back on top of him.***
At least he was smart enough not to drink. granted, probably because he wanted to be sure he could do his best work for JARVIS, but it wouldn't have been his first time engineering and coding drunk, so it still shows he made a good decision somewhere int here.

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I think it's because it's easier to see what you're doing to other people when you yourself are the other people.<<

Yes, that's true.

>>Yes, like at the beginning of IM3. :( <<

Tony is like that repeatedly, especially with Pepper.

The scene with the strawberries in IM2 was awful -- he was trying so hard to do something that everyone kept demanding of him, but wasn't innate and hadn't ever been taught, and nobody wanted to give him credit for effort.

>> And when he talked to JARVIS, he cried, and JARVIS must have felt awful, too, and... *heart breaks* <<

Yeah, that was miserable for both of them. It always hurts when you realize that you've harmed someone you love. They made some very important progress, though, which will come to light later.

>> At least he was smart enough not to drink. granted, probably because he wanted to be sure he could do his best work for JARVIS, but it wouldn't have been his first time engineering and coding drunk, so it still shows he made a good decision somewhere int here. <<

Actually Tony has been drinking, he just has a high enough tolerance that it doesn't show. He probably started coding sober, just as you said, wanting to do his best work; but then as his emotional distress scaled up, he turned to the liquid comfort. I suspect that most of the drinking occurred during the conversation after Tony finished the main work on the code, when he and JARVIS were proofing it to make sure everything was fixed, and then they got into the messy conversation.

The hell of it is, Tony can code drunk. He's done some of his best work while drunk, strung out on caffeine, and/or sleep-deprived. Because that's how he spends most of his life. Of course, that also leads to setting himself or the workspace on fire, hence DUM-E's alacrity with the fire extinguisher.

Re: Yes...

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Yeah, that scene with the strawberries rubbed me the wrong way, not just because they get thrown in the trash. It's like the writers only wanted to show "Tony doesn't know simple things, like Pepper's allergies."

Having been his PA, wouldn't she Know that this is a huge step for him? Normal Tony gifts would be, well, a necklace that cost what he paid for the strawberries. I know she's upset about him supporting a Boy Scouts that can't deal with cubs that have two moms with the art collection, but as distracted as she is by "I'm CEO, and people think I got here on my back" This really should be an Earth Changing Moment.

Yeah. I'd think he started sober and even stayed that way until the talking, but didn't exceed his 'I hit this stuff hard and I'm not drinking to Get Shitfaced' levels. Though, sometimes Tony may not be at his GS and act like some do because they are at theirs.

I think for that Jericho presentation he was drinking AND caffeine-strung out AND deep into sleep-deficit. Rhodey may not even know Tony with enough sleep.

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Yeah, that scene with the strawberries rubbed me the wrong way, <<

Agreed.

>> not just because they get thrown in the trash. <<

That always punches my buttons.

>> It's like the writers only wanted to show "Tony doesn't know simple things, like Pepper's allergies." <<

Yes, that's true of the writers and Tony alike.

It also illustrates a trait common to humans and the universe: they don't register negatives easily. You don't say, "Don't buy me strawberries," because what sticks in mind is "strawberries." You say, "I love peaches; you can bring me peaches."

>> Having been his PA, wouldn't she Know that this is a huge step for him? <<

If she was paying attention, yes. But their interactions throughout canon are consistent: Pepper just plain does not give Tony credit for his ass-busting efforts to please her, nevermind that she's holding up smaller targets than emotionally-untrained Tony has any hope of ever hitting. It's like Lucy and the football. Pepper will only accept exactly the right response.

No wonder poor Tony has problems with perfectionism and black/white thinking and reacting badly to mistakes.

>> Normal Tony gifts would be, well, a necklace that cost what he paid for the strawberries. <<

Vastly more than that; he tends to buy gifts in the four to six figures range. A flat of strawberries runs maybe $25-50. For Tony, who's been pestered about overdoing it, this also is a concession.

>> I know she's upset about him supporting a Boy Scouts that can't deal with cubs that have two moms with the art collection, <<

Pepper's complaint was absolutely valid. Tony hurt her deeply by giving away the art collection. The closest she came to saying something that would have led to a useful conversation was citing how long she spent developing that collection -- a clue how much she loved it. If Tony had been thinking clearly, he would have given it to her, not to someone else.

But Tony was not capable of that much emotional finesse at that time in his life, and his addled biochemistry made it impossible for him to make good decisions.

Notice that Pepper, Rhodey, and everyone else except possibly SHIELD (this is what may have tipped them that something was wrong) missed major warning signs such as giving away prized belongings and sudden changes in behavior. Those are warning signs for suicide and for someone hiding a terminal illness: really not something a good friend should overlook.

>> but as distracted as she is by "I'm CEO, and people think I got here on my back" This really should be an Earth Changing Moment. <<

Yeah. Party foul there. No chance of a healthy resolution with Tony withholding crucial information, but for pete's sake Pepper could have been modeling better behavior. How the devil is he ever going to learn if nobody will teach him?

>> Yeah. I'd think he started sober and even stayed that way until the talking, but didn't exceed his 'I hit this stuff hard and I'm not drinking to Get Shitfaced' levels. <<

Likely so. I think he was drinking for comfort and mild numbness, not to put himself down. When he drinks to get drunk or pass out, he's very methodical about it.

>> Though, sometimes Tony may not be at his GS and act like some do because they are at theirs. <<

True. I think he can play up as well as play down how drunk he is.

>> I think for that Jericho presentation he was drinking AND caffeine-strung out AND deep into sleep-deficit. <<

Yeah, he was so flying, it's like he was hardly there.

>> Rhodey may not even know Tony with enough sleep. <<

Probably no one has, until recently. Including Tony. Poor guy thinks he's coming down with narcolepsy or something because he feels safe enough to fall asleep without being drunk or physically exhausted from days awake. He honestly can't recognize what is starting to happen, now that he has a positive family life and lower stress levels.

Re: Yes...

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Normal Tony gifts would be, well, a necklace that cost what he paid for the strawberries.

>>Vastly more than that; he tends to buy gifts in the four to six figures range. A flat of strawberries runs maybe $25-50. For Tony, who's been pestered about overdoing it, this also is a concession.

Ah, but he didn't have anything that small on him so he gave the seller his watch. Now it may be that there is a minion that notices when Tony's stuff winds up in odd places and has to Solomon when this is 'Give person percentage 'finders' fee', buy it back quickly, and 'get person charged on something sticky'. I think that was at least a five figure watch. For Tony, that's not that 'big of a deal'. College kids wearing the same was freaky.

No, the art collection was the most honest bit of Pepper development we get, and we know that while Tony knows art it's as investment, not as something to gaze upon. If Tony had been clearer, he'd have grasped that a small museum would make a nice gift. Then parts of the collection could be lent to its walls. There'd be some plates bolted to the walls mentioning the curate periods of the collection.

In Pepper's defense, she's got writers that aren't the most interpersonal health-savvy (meta) and it's got to have been traumatic keeping Tony from his self-destruction. It still seems like this would have been a tall poppy compared to his usual, but she may well just be in her own BUSY haze.

Rhodey I think doesn't know as much day to day about Tony to catch things like the art give away. Pepper, forest, trees. Pepper may have come in late enough that she thinks Tony's 'bad boy' is a choice and not a wire mother monkey. I suspect she stayed because reining Tony in would be like mountain climbing and bull-riding-once you get some skill it would be addictive.

When Tony went digging, grabbing two women and then telling them to start without him, that's social engineering. So he's paid attention.

That well could be. Tony being Tony sleeping somewhere unexpected might feel safer than his bed.

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Ah, but he didn't have anything that small on him so he gave the seller his watch.<<

Point, I'd forgotten about that.

>>I think that was at least a five figure watch. For Tony, that's not that 'big of a deal'. College kids wearing the same was freaky.<<

Yeah. *chuckle* The single most expensive item I've ever priced for one of my characters is Pat's watch. It's the kind of watch I could see Tony owning, that he wouldn't give away.

>>No, the art collection was the most honest bit of Pepper development we get,<<

Agreed.

>> and we know that while Tony knows art it's as investment, not as something to gaze upon. <<

Well ... I think that depends on the art. He has Pepper curate The Collection because a wealthy guy is expected to collect art. He maybe likes to look at it.

But the stuff Tony really cares about is different. He hangs a lovely painting of Iron Man in his workspace in place of one of the Big Name pictures. This pisses Pepper off. I don't think it's the self-aggrandizing gesture that she implies. I think it's because some other creator was inspired by something Tony made, enough to make art of it, and he feels touched by that.

>> If Tony had been clearer, he'd have grasped that a small museum would make a nice gift. Then parts of the collection could be lent to its walls. There'd be some plates bolted to the walls mentioning the curate periods of the collection. <<

Clue. Sadly out of reach for toxed-out, poorly-parented Tony.

>> In Pepper's defense, she's got writers that aren't the most interpersonal health-savvy (meta) and it's got to have been traumatic keeping Tony from his self-destruction. <<

Yes, that's true.

>> It still seems like this would have been a tall poppy compared to his usual, but she may well just be in her own BUSY haze. <<

I would think that nannying someone with a profound self-destructive streak must surely include "watch for signs of suicide or other imminent implosion (checklist appended)."

>> Rhodey I think doesn't know as much day to day about Tony to catch things like the art give away. <<

Probably true for everyday stuff. But Tony letting Rhodey steal a suit? Not an accident, and not trivial: Rhodey has to know how protective Tony is of that tech, because Tony's been saying no and no to the army getting any of it.

>> Pepper, forest, trees. Pepper may have come in late enough that she thinks Tony's 'bad boy' is a choice and not a wire mother monkey. I suspect she stayed because reining Tony in would be like mountain climbing and bull-riding-once you get some skill it would be addictive. <<

*laugh* So very true.

>>When Tony went digging, grabbing two women and then telling them to start without him, that's social engineering. So he's paid attention.<<

Yyyyeah.

>>That well could be. Tony being Tony sleeping somewhere unexpected might feel safer than his bed.<<

He probably has mixed experiences in bed, considering his insomnia, nightmares, and random choice of sex partners. There's a discussion later about the trunk. But Tony just isn't used to feeling safe, ever. Just more or less threatened. With the team, he can truly relax, because not only will they not hurt him, they will actively protect him -- and he's starting to get that where it counts.

Re: Yes...

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Exactly. And a watch (or a crafted car) of the first water Tony would respect. I still need to do a review of Departures a magazine for a strata within view of Tony's world. It advertised that same mark of watch as Pat's.

I was thinking about his 'buy it, wrap it store it' regarding iirc a Pollack.

Yes, I think Pepper didn't grasp that it wasn't that it was the Expo poster that made Tony go pulling an artwork down, and that it was a striking design so happening to validate some of Tony's own design. Inadvertent egoboo. (You know Tony got a weird choked up feeling when all those men started wearing his beard.)

Yes, and if the writers were writing as they should be writing what they're writing... I attribute it in world to her believing she's not Tony's nanny anymore, that him being Ironman means that he's doing better than he was, and she's Incredibly Overwhelmed. Tony keeps making tea in tempests and that's a higher level of damage control than even Pepper is used to.

That Malibu fight would have Rhodey all keyed up that he probably had a low probability to actually think things out, including that he only was able to get the suit because Tony wanted him to have it. That was a more expensive method than Tony had planned, but it did stress test the interface. (War Machine as mandrake or Rhodey as Prometheus...)

Was that one of his estates or someone elses? I couldn't make that out.

True, it's been too much a matter of degree for, more than Steve's been out and about-- Before and After. Again, when living through the Great Depression poor and sick is your 'good formative origins', you know you're subscribing to Wayne Publications.

Ah, Steve as the hope left in Pandora's box.

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I was thinking about his 'buy it, wrap it store it' regarding iirc a Pollack.<<

True. That's part of the motivation for the collection.

>>Yes, I think Pepper didn't grasp that it wasn't that it was the Expo poster that made Tony go pulling an artwork down, and that it was a striking design so happening to validate some of Tony's own design. Inadvertent egoboo.<<

She missed that by a mile. Images of himself, Tony can get anywhere. But for someone to make art of Tony's art? All the feels for him.

>> (You know Tony got a weird choked up feeling when all those men started wearing his beard.) <<

He's used to being a trendsetter, but yeah, that might do it.

>> Yes, and if the writers were writing as they should be writing what they're writing... I attribute it in world to her believing she's not Tony's nanny anymore, that him being Ironman means that he's doing better than he was, and she's Incredibly Overwhelmed. <<

Likely so.

>> Tony keeps making tea in tempests and that's a higher level of damage control than even Pepper is used to. <<

Yeah, even black belt nanny-fu has degrees.

>> That Malibu fight would have Rhodey all keyed up that he probably had a low probability to actually think things out, including that he only was able to get the suit because Tony wanted him to have it. <<

Also true.

>> That was a more expensive method than Tony had planned, but it did stress test the interface. (War Machine as mandrake or Rhodey as Prometheus...) <<

Tony has a tendency to test everything to destruction.

>>Was that one of his estates or someone elses? I couldn't make that out.<<

If the suit was there for Rhodey to steal, it must have been Tony's space.

>>True, it's been too much a matter of degree for, more than Steve's been out and about-- Before and After. Again, when living through the Great Depression poor and sick is your 'good formative origins', you know you're subscribing to Wayne Publications.<<

Yeah, that's got to suck. It's why Steve quietly flipped out the first game night, realizing that his impoverished childhood actually left him in better shape than most of the team.

>> Ah, Steve as the hope left in Pandora's box. <<

I am so nabbing this for future reference. That is brilliant.

Re: Yes...

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

>>She missed that by a mile. Images of himself, Tony can get anywhere. But for someone to make art of Tony's art? All the feels for him.<<

And Iron Man is among the first of his art he can be enthused about. He's created but the AIs need to be kept secret, and he has destroyed, so much that he's 'embraced' Merchant of Death, but now he's really getting into Preserve. (Though I bet there have been divisions working on prosthetics and other things beyond green energy.)

>>>> (You know Tony got a weird choked up feeling when all those men started wearing his beard.) <<

He's used to being a trendsetter, but yeah, that might do it.<<

When there are words are explaining why? When grown men are doing a day to day equiv of cosplay not because Tony is rich but because he did something good? FEELS. more FEELS he even knew there could be.

>>>>Was that one of his estates or someone elses? I couldn't make that out.<<

If the suit was there for Rhodey to steal, it must have been Tony's space.<<

Sorry, that went with the social engineering using two women and sliding out of the sandwich. I can't recall if he was finding Obie's dirty dealings with one of his 'partners' or if Tony was using his own party to dig around one of his own estates.

>>It's why Steve quietly flipped out the first game night, realizing that his impoverished childhood actually left him in better shape than most of the team.<<

And that right there is the place where "the meek shall inherit the earth and the rest will go into space" misses by a mile. (I think that was Asimov, it's generally attributed to him) I wonder if the Three Rules of Robotics has any bearing on George's slavery problem in Star Wars--droids don't have it, but C3P0 has got a bad case of scrapping and shuffling, which is the flipside when you want to believe those you've wronged won't kill you when you sleep.

>>>> Ah, Steve as the hope left in Pandora's box. <<

I am so nabbing this for future reference. That is brilliant.<<

You're welcome, in good health. (a notes link over to my AO3 when you deploy, SVP.)

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>And Iron Man is among the first of his art he can be enthused about.<<

Yes, exactly.

>> He's created but the AIs need to be kept secret, and he has destroyed, so much that he's 'embraced' Merchant of Death, but now he's really getting into Preserve. <<

Yes, exactly.

>> (Though I bet there have been divisions working on prosthetics and other things beyond green energy.) <<

I think so too. Tony is like NASA, he builds with a particular purpose but a lot of his stuff has wide-ranging applications.

>>not because Tony is rich but because he did something good? FEELS. more FEELS he even knew there could be.<<

Point.

>> I wonder if the Three Rules of Robotics has any bearing on George's slavery problem in Star Wars--droids don't have it, <<

It might.

>>but C3P0 has got a bad case of scrapping and shuffling, which is the flipside when you want to believe those you've wronged won't kill you when you sleep.<<

Yeah. And I think that's party of why Tony didn't want to build slaves, precisely because he knows that slaves want to kill their masters, and he doesn't want to make more people who want to kill him.

>>You're welcome, in good health. (a notes link over to my AO3 when you deploy, SVP.)<<

Give me the URL and I'll put it with my notes.

Re: Yes...

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Yeah, Tony would get that if you want things done without a person, don't get an intelligence involved. Thinking, Is. A thinking machine is an I.


http://archiveofourown.org/users/peoriapeoria/works would get people to my stuff.

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Yeah, Tony would get that if you want things done without a person, don't get an intelligence involved. Thinking, Is. A thinking machine is an I. <<

Exactly. I like that Tony thinks of them as people.

>>http://archiveofourown.org/users/peoriapeoria/works would get people to my stuff.<<

Got it, thanks!

[chordatesrock]

Yay!

The fic's humming along very smoothly and not eliciting comment, just like JARVIS.

Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm glad you're enjoying this, and still reading.

[(Anonymous)]

i like your story a lot. im glad phil is feeling better. i know he will look after tony.

sometimes phil says "we need to talk" and it makes me so scared when somebody says that. always panic a bit even if they say "no it's nothing bad" it scares me. i dont know why my scared-meter is so dumb sometimes, it makes me frustrated. but i know tony isnt scared like that but my insides feel scared anyway.

thank you for telling me it would be ok a few chapters ago. it helped me :)

this part isn't about the story:
you said about nonsexual intimacy for aces in your links up there and i wanted to ask a question. you dont have to answer of course! but you're good at lots of this stuff i think ... there is one person who is my friend rl and he is not ace, he is .. attracted to me i guess? hes a good person and i told him with words clearly several times i dont do sex and i dont want a relationship like that etc. and he does understand really i believe he does. and i know he would never never NEVER do anything i didn't want or anything bad - he would probably be more willing to chop off his own leg than hurt me. but just the knowing he's attracted makes me feel scared and not wanting to be physically touch or close.

i don't want to be like that! it feels .. like im being mean? like im punishing him for something that's not his fault, even though he's being very respectful with allllllll of the parts of the problem that are under his control. i dont want to be mean to him, especially when hes trying so hard. i dont know any way to help me feel safer or ... i dunno what? get used to him? any ideas??

oh actually two questions i had. do you know about attachment styles? like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults#Dismissive.E2.80.93avoidant_attachment when i do the attachment measures it says im "dismissive avoidant" and when i read the description yup thats me. back as far as i remember having any relationships i was like that with almost everybody 'cept some of my family ... when i was 14 i changed schools and before that from 5-14 years old i had been basically with the same kids and then when i was 14 i turned around and practically never even missed them. same with any romantic relationships, and friends from other places. there are a few relationships where i think "secure" is a better description but not many. so anyway now i WANT to work on being able to be better at relationships but every time i find stuff online it is aimed at people in the "anxious" attachment style!! i keep finding stuff that isnt anything relevant to how i feel and its really frustrating. and being ace makes it harder to find anything about relationships because i don't want things about sex either. just ... do you know what i mean?

i wonder if maybe the two things are mixed up - being ace and avoidant. because actually i'm not aromantic like natasha more like clint in your story i think. but just screwed up!!

anyway sorry if its too many questions and like i said i won't worry if you don't answer or can't or whatever its fine :) i like your stories a lot and your links and i always look forwand to the next bit.

from nonny75

[(Anonymous)]

ps
i know you probly know who i am becua;se i post wrong sometimes but i know you wont tell :) thank you.

*hugs*

[ysabetwordsmith]

That's okay.

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> i like your story a lot. <<

Yay!

>> im glad phil is feeling better. i know he will look after tony. <<

A drawback to communal living is that one person's problems can impact others more. An advantage is that there's usually someone to put the pieces back together again. The Avengers are getting to where it's just just Phil who makes with the patchworking. They can help each other -- and him.

>> sometimes phil says "we need to talk" and it makes me so scared when somebody says that. always panic a bit even if they say "no it's nothing bad" it scares me. <<

It's not rare for people to become wary of that particular phrasing, less so for synonyms. It can also happen with any consistent phrase used in a group prior to challenging conversations.

>>i dont know why my scared-meter is so dumb sometimes, it makes me frustrated.<<

Probably experience, if people haven't always been gentle with your feelings and/or skilled with difficult talks.

>> but i know tony isnt scared like that but my insides feel scared anyway. <<

I'm not sure. I suspect there are circumstances where a version of "we need to talk" would scare Tony. At the moment, he may be too overloaded on self-recrimination and grief for fear to register. Also he has a certain tendency toward relief at "we need to talk" after a big blowup, because it means the person is at least still speaking to him.

>> thank you for telling me it would be ok a few chapters ago. it helped me :) <<

I'm happy to hear that. As a general premise, in this series, almost everything will be okay eventually. Some problems take a lot longer to work out than others do. There are some supporting characters whose choices mean they aren't going to work things out with our heroes. But the Avengers are putting a lot of work into fixing themselves and each other, so they can compensate.

>> this part isn't about the story: <<

Okay, I'll help as I can.

>> you said about nonsexual intimacy for aces in your links up there and i wanted to ask a question. you dont have to answer of course! but you're good at lots of this stuff i think ... <<

Thank you! I'll be asking some questions back, and similarly, you don't have to answer (or we can take this discussion private) but they are things that might help to think about.

>> there is one person who is my friend rl and he is not ace, he is .. attracted to me i guess? <<

Greater precision with his feelings would help. That's an intimate conversation right there.

* Does he feel sexual desire for your body?

* Does he feel sexual desire for your personality?

* Does he desire other forms of intimacy with you which are not sexual?

* Is he comfortable with whatever desire he feels toward you, or does any of it make him uncomfortable due to your orientation?

If he feels sexual desire toward you, and doesn't mind letting go of it or actively wants to get rid of it; and/or if he would like to increase nonsexual intimacy with you, then you may have some goals in common. If he's more firmly attached to keeping his desire, even if he chooses not to act upon it, that's a bigger challenge.

Note that many people don't make distinctions much more detailed than "want/don't want" so he may not have those answers at the top of his awareness. It's still something to consider.

You may want to look up resources for dealing with unwanted sexual desire. It's not rare for sexual people to desire or be desired by someone in a context where consummation is not appropriate or welcome. So they have to deal with that somehow. Another thing that happens is desire across the boundaries of heterosexual or homosexual lines, when people's orientations are incompatible; it can make the recipient of the desire very uncomfortable. That's quite close to what's happening with you. There aren't a lot of resources for this, but some.

>> hes a good person and i told him with words clearly several times i dont do sex and i dont want a relationship like that etc. and he does understand really i believe he does. and i know he would never never NEVER do anything i didn't want or anything bad - he would probably be more willing to chop off his own leg than hurt me. <<

Is that a belief in your head or a feeling in your heart? Reliance is behaving as if someone will do as they say they will, a logical calculation of probability and action. It's how people get by in the world if they can't or won't trust much. Trust is a feeling safety and security in someone else, an emotional sensation of faith in what will come.

>> but just the knowing he's attracted makes me feel scared and not wanting to be physically touch or close. <<

So then, you need to figure out exactly what you're scared of and why, because that will help reveal how to make that fear go away. For example, is it the attraction itself that makes you edgy? Is it not knowing what will happen next? Is it remembering times when other people have promised to respect your boundaries and then violated them? Or something else?

It may help to make a list of areas or activities, ranged from "always safe," "sometimes safe," to "always unsafe." If you want to expand your comfort zone, start doing things in the "always safe" category with the intent of moving into the "sometimes safe" category, and intending to stop somewhere short of the "always unsafe" stuff.

You also need to determine what you want. Is it just to stop the fear? Is it to maintain or deepen a friendship you value? Is it to become physically, nonsexually closer with him? Or something else?

>> i don't want to be like that! it feels .. like im being mean? like im punishing him for something that's not his fault, even though he's being very respectful with allllllll of the parts of the problem that are under his control. i dont want to be mean to him, especially when hes trying so hard. <<

First, distinguish your feelings from your actions. People feel what they feel, and they have a right to their feelings, even if those aren't always accurate or appropriate. That is equally true for his attraction to you and your aversion to his attraction. Feelings tend to be hard to change, although it is possible.

If you feel uneasy around him, but you're willing to work on it, that's not being mean; it's okay to feel what you feel. If your uneasiness makes you avoid him and maybe lose the friendship, that's more troubling. If your uneasiness makes you pick on him, that's being mean, taking out your emotions on someone else.

>> i dont know any way to help me feel safer or ... i dunno what? get used to him? any ideas?? <<

The two of you would first need to identify your own feelings and wishes precisely enough to determine if you have mutual goals that you choose to work toward. If you can reach an agreement about goals, then you can figure out steps in that direction. Try to find things that are small, relatively safe, and pleasant if possible. Expect to spend some serious time working on this stuff; emotions and body-feelings are difficult to influence with thoughts and often slow to learn by practice. But they're also pretty sturdy so if you get them into the configuration you want, they will probably stay there.

Without knowing more -- including information you probably don't have yet -- it's hard to guess what could help. Some likely possibilities in general:

* Many kinds of broad-spectrum trust-building activities should help.
http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/build-trust-relationships-family-friends-7307.html
http://voices.yahoo.com/how-build-trust-relationship-1023915.html?cat=41
http://www.toolsformentoring.com/small-group/relationship-builders.html

* Define boundaries and expectations. Activities with formal guidelines may help, such as partner yoga poses or tactile games.

* Start with low intimacy where you already feel comfortable, and move gradually deeper. One example would be going from shaking hands (which strangers do) to holding hands (which friends do).

* When pushing a boundary for the purpose of growth, move forward until you get to the edge of your comfort zone. Take one more step, where you are slightly uncomfortable but not alarmed. Hold that briefly, then move back into your comfort zone. Do not go too fast or you could rupture something that would really hurt.

* Pay attention to your feelings and the other person's feelings. You may want to use a mood tracker or make up some other kind of recordkeeping. It's important to know if what you do is helping, not making a difference, or actively making things worse. As part of this, notice whether your friend is keeping his word, respecting your needs, and investing time in the relationship. If so, those actions will also build trust, and that will go faster if you are actively watching it rather than ignoring it.

>> oh actually two questions i had. do you know about attachment styles? like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults#Dismissive.E2.80.93avoidant_attachment <<

That's interesting. I've seen attachment styles relating to children; this is the first I've seen for adults. I think the model has some promise but is ... perhaps unfinished. A lot of people I know have mixed reactions across those categories. So either the lines aren't drawn quite right, it needs to be a proportionate measure, or people have different styles in different circumstances that would need sorting out somehow. Also it only focuses on sexual/romantic relationships which leaves out almost everything in a person's life. But it's food for thought.

>> when i do the attachment measures it says im "dismissive avoidant" and when i read the description yup thats me. <<

Okay, that's useful.

>> back as far as i remember having any relationships i was like that with almost everybody 'cept some of my family ... when i was 14 i changed schools and before that from 5-14 years old i had been basically with the same kids and then when i was 14 i turned around and practically never even missed them. same with any romantic relationships, and friends from other places. <<

It's good to know things about yourself.

>> there are a few relationships where i think "secure" is a better description but not many. <<

Well, at least that gives you a basis to work from. Perhaps you can identify features about those relationships that would help you expand the secure zone.

>> so anyway now i WANT to work on being able to be better at relationships but every time i find stuff online it is aimed at people in the "anxious" attachment style!! i keep finding stuff that isnt anything relevant to how i feel and its really frustrating. <<

Some things get written about more than others. Look up dysfunctional family roles and almost all the "how to get out" advice is aimed at scapegoats. What, like nobody else wants to escape the trap of the other roles? *headdesk* You may be dealing with issues that have not been discussed much yet. In that case, it could help to blog about them, or discuss them in private with friends, or keep asking if anyone has resources. Then collect what you know and collate that into a better reference set for other folks like you -- or if you're not good at data management like that, maybe find someone else who is. You can see where I've made some posts that compile my research on topics where it's scattered so damn wide that most people wouldn't be able to assemble a useful pool.

>> and being ace makes it harder to find anything about relationships because i don't want things about sex either. <<

Yes, that makes sense. Try looking for information about relationships that are not sexual: parent/child, owner/pet, sibling, friend, coworker, etc. See if any of that is stuff you could use.

>> just ... do you know what i mean? <<

Yes. It's frustrating when you're trying to fix something and there isn't an instruction manual for your particular model.

>> i wonder if maybe the two things are mixed up - being ace and avoidant. <<

That is possible. Causality can run in either direction too -- certain personality types may incline someone to be asexual, while asexuality may influence experiences that tend to develop certain personality traits.

>> because actually i'm not aromantic like natasha more like clint in your story i think. <<

I'm particularly thinking of how Clint and Bruce both sometimes get "jammed" between touch-aversion and skin-hunger, sometimes also between wanting greater emotional closeness but hesitating because they've been hurt so often.

>> but just screwed up!! <<

Bear in mind that there's a difference between your innate features and whatever damage you may have collected along the way from you or other people reacting badly to challenges.

>> anyway sorry if its too many questions and like i said i won't worry if you don't answer or can't or whatever its fine :) <<

It's okay. I'm interested in this general topic.

>> i like your stories a lot and your links and i always look forwand to the next bit. <<

*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.

[siliconshaman]

Hey, touching base to let you know I'm reading this and really enjoying it!

Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm happy to hear that.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, I just, I can't because of the FEELS.

I love that Phil told JARVIS that Phil considers him a friend. Open discussion of feelings always gets me. Saying 'I love you', 'You're my friend', 'I care about you', 'You're important to me.' I adore it, it gives me the warm fuzzies.

I love that Tony and Phil cuddled. I love cuddles!

I found the discussion of JARVIS's body being the tower to be very interesting. Most fics I've read, if they do count him as a person, tend to act as if he has no body. I, myself, have often acted or thought that way, but it makes sense.

JARVIS still has a very low sense of his own self worth, doesn't he?

Helga

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Oh, I just, I can't because of the FEELS. <<

*glee*

>> I love that Phil told JARVIS that Phil considers him a friend. <<

Phil is probably the best communicator that the Avengers have. Clarity is important to him. He does a lot in the way of coaching people about identifying feelings and needs with each other. So of course Phil wants to frame his relationship with JARVIS.

>> Open discussion of feelings always gets me. Saying 'I love you', 'You're my friend', 'I care about you', 'You're important to me.' I adore it, it gives me the warm fuzzies. <<

That's one of the five love languages.

>> I love that Tony and Phil cuddled. I love cuddles! <<

Tony needs physical comfort, but is less clear about that than Clint or even Bruce. In fact Tony doesn't have much comfort-seeking behavior yet; he doesn't know how. So Phil is gently teaching him, and Tony is learning what helps him feel better.

>> I found the discussion of JARVIS's body being the tower to be very interesting. <<

Yay! I'm happy to hear that.

>>Most fics I've read, if they do count him as a person, tend to act as if he has no body. I, myself, have often acted or thought that way, but it makes sense.<<

Yes, the prevailing trend is to treat JARVIS as disembodied, despite the amount of physical interaction he shows in canon. I think it's because most people just aren't used to interacting with someone who isn't human, and especially isn't biological. I have ulterior experience that gives me an advantage in perceiving other options.

>> JARVIS still has a very low sense of his own self worth, doesn't he? <<

He understands the idea of self-worth, that he is a person and persons have value. But he habitually puts himself below other people in terms of priority. Although he often frames that in terms of humans being more fragile, I think he does it for much the same reason as the rest of the Avengers: he's a hero, and heroes tend to put other people first. So not all of the trait is unhealthy. I do think it's lower than it should be, and that JARVIS is quicker to accept damage than is ideal. He needs to learn to consider other options first and put more effort into self-preservation.

They'll be talking about this stuff a lot.

[(Anonymous)]

"... but I was never in any danger," JARVIS said. His voice held a hesitant note.

I'm really fascinated by the way you depict JARVIS and his...personhood? I was going to say "humanity", but that's not quite right. Anyway, like Helga said above, the idea of the Tower as JARVIS' body is really neat. It can be hard to think of an incorporeal being as truly "there", but I like the idea that Phil and Bucky (and probably Tony) can recognize his physical presence in the walls of the Tower.

I am trying to work through the complexities of being a person, but not a human/alien/demigod/general meat-sack. Like the quote I started with. On one level, that's genuinely true. JARVIS' injury wasn't "dangerous" in the way a physical injury would be human--there was no danger of catastrophic system failure. And I don't think you could call it an emotional trauma, either--certainly the situation that led to the injury caused JARVIS emotional pain, but the code problems themselves wouldn't be emotionally painful.

So I can imagine JARVIS not even registering the code problems as "injury" at all, and just saying to himself, "Yeah, I'll need Tony to fix this." (And let's be real, Tony is the only one who can fix this particular problem, so telling Phil or the others really doesn't solve anything.) "But he's clearly traumatized tonight, and I'm pissed and hurt and really don't want to deal with him right now anyway, so I'll just bring it up later when he's ready to work." Basic triage is to get the "medic" healthy first, so he can help other people. Although that would mean that he did see it as an injury on some level...

And of course it's an injury. A self-inflicted one at that, which is worrying on a whole different level. And of course Phil needs to know about it, even if he can't do anything but offer comfort. But not mentioning it looks completely logical from JARVIS' point of view... Argh. These people do come up with the most complicated ways to mis-communicate.


...Wow, that got really long and rambling. I'm still reading and enjoying! OK, shutting up now.

Meg

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I'm really fascinated by the way you depict JARVIS and his...personhood? I was going to say "humanity", but that's not quite right. <<

Yay! I'm glad this intrigues you so much. It's a favorite theme of mine, and you'll see more exploration of this in future chapters. Personhood is one good term, in the sense of being a sapient individual with moral rights; but humanity is more often used to imply decency and morality. Awfully speciesist of people to frame it that way, isn't it? I have a hard time finding links that are broader in terminology rather than humanocentric.

>> Anyway, like Helga said above, the idea of the Tower as JARVIS' body is really neat. It can be hard to think of an incorporeal being as truly "there", but I like the idea that Phil and Bucky (and probably Tony) can recognize his physical presence in the walls of the Tower. <<

There aren't many people who know that JARVIS is a person and not just a fancy program. But still, most people have a tendency to respond as if he's in a control room, or is God -- they'll look either at a speaker or at the ceiling, because that's how people react to a "disembodied" voice. He's not disembodied, though; he's in the tower. That disconnect comes from the fact that humans aren't used to relating to someone who's that much bigger than they are. When the implications start filtering into their awareness more precisely, that's when they start interacting with him differently, and especially reaching out to touch him.

>>I am trying to work through the complexities of being a person, but not a human/alien/demigod/general meat-sack.<<

It's challenging because people are used to thinking of a person as a permanently bound soul+body unit. JARVIS isn't incorporeal; he can interact with the material world and wear a body, or several bodies. He just doesn't do it the same way we do. A human soul is to a human body as the software is to the hardware for JARVIS, only he's better equipped for out-of-body travel and bilocation. And yes, that changes how he interacts with the world and people.

>> Like the quote I started with. On one level, that's genuinely true. JARVIS' injury wasn't "dangerous" in the way a physical injury would be human--there was no danger of catastrophic system failure. <<

Right. JARVIS exists in layers, like any other person. The core of himself is extremely robust. The damage went down almost that far, but didn't penetrate the core -- just as far as the sensory layers, and only in a limited area of effect. So even ripping out the block in a way that wasn't intended, it was unpleasant rather than threatening.

>> And I don't think you could call it an emotional trauma, either--certainly the situation that led to the injury caused JARVIS emotional pain, but the code problems themselves wouldn't be emotionally painful. <<

The code damage, as distinct from the emotional damage, was psychological distress. That can be intensely unpleasant, but it's not the same as physical injury for a human. It's kind of like ... when you're frantically trying to find something lost but you can't remember where it is, or a crucial answer is on the tip of your tongue but you can't get it out. Such experiences are painful in a more abstract way.

It was the emotional aspect that really gutted him.

>> So I can imagine JARVIS not even registering the code problems as "injury" at all, and just saying to himself, "Yeah, I'll need Tony to fix this." <<

JARVIS is stoic. That's not just because of his AI nature; it's also because of his parentage. Tony flaps around his superficial emotions but hides the deeper feelings and physical distress. Edwin Jarvis, being a butler, probably had a calm and reserved presentation over an undercurrent of warmth for people he cared about.

>> (And let's be real, Tony is the only one who can fix this particular problem, so telling Phil or the others really doesn't solve anything.) <<

That does come up later in discussion amongst the three of them. JARVIS can modify his own code, some of which is easy and some of which is much more awkward. It's like trying to patch yourself up after falling on gravel. If you've scraped your knee, it's easy; if you've scraped your elbow, you can only reach it with one hand; and if you've scraped your back, it's really hard.

Plus of course there's the comfort factor. Some people feel better treating their own injuries. Most find it soothing to have someone else take care of them. I think JARVIS takes comfort in Tony's help.

>> "But he's clearly traumatized tonight, and I'm pissed and hurt and really don't want to deal with him right now anyway, so I'll just bring it up later when he's ready to work." <<

Oh hell yes. JARVIS is bruised enough emotionally that he just does not have the spoons to deal with a programmer who is, frankly, a drama llama.

>> Basic triage is to get the "medic" healthy first, so he can help other people. <<

This is also a valid point.

>> Although that would mean that he did see it as an injury on some level... <<

It is, and he does. JARVIS just doesn't find that the most compelling interpretation of events.

>> And of course it's an injury. A self-inflicted one at that, which is worrying on a whole different level. <<

That discussion begins in the next chapter, what JARVIS did and why. It's incidental rather than integral damage -- hurting himself was not the goal -- but it still shows a lower level of self-worth than would be ideal. I think JARVIS sees self-injury as something he doesn't want to do rather than something he shouldn't do; he's too quick to dismiss himself as someone who deserves not to be hurt.

>> And of course Phil needs to know about it, even if he can't do anything but offer comfort. <<

Oh yes, they'll be talking about that too. You don't know whether someone could help unless you ask; it's possible Phil might have come up with an idea that would lighten the load somehow. If nothing else he could've shifted his support methods for Tony to help get the programmer functional again faster. And if you are with people you trust, you should tell them when something goes wrong. It's different if you're not sure of someone's intent, and JARVIS is very wary about that -- but he's already let the Avengers in. Holding out on them like this was very shabby friendship.

>> But not mentioning it looks completely logical from JARVIS' point of view... <<

That's because he was missing a variable:

* effect of damage to JARVIS on people who care about him.

He's only ever had Tony to consider in that regard, and Tony is different -- plus the addition of so many more people has changed how Tony and JARVIS interact. This exact type of conflict wouldn't have come up before.

>> Argh. These people do come up with the most complicated ways to mis-communicate. <<

Yes, they do. That's what happens when you take people with patchy communication skills and lead them into deep intimacy. They don't have the capacity to manage that much data flow gracefully.

>> ...Wow, that got really long and rambling. I'm still reading and enjoying! OK, shutting up now. <<

I love long, thinky comments like this!

Re: Thoughts

[thnidu]

“they'll look either at a speaker or at the ceiling, because that's how people react to a "disembodied" voice.”

(Now where…?) … !! The Ship Who Sang!

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

That's one example. There are lots of others though. Original series Star Trek had big speakers visible in certain sets, and people tended to orient on those. AI movies often give the character a "face" in the form of a camera or speaker, with similar results. But if there isn't one, watch the actors, they tend to look up at the ceiling.

Far less common are stories where the AI character is sympathetic and the human character(s) really care about them. Then there is more attention to how the AI sees themself and what interface is meaningful to them. More touching, too. More awareness of being inside someone else's body.

Andromeda is a fascinating example because, despite the android body, there is very much a sense that Rommy is the ship. She has a video/holographic avatar too, that she uses to speak with her crew. But she doesn't always bother and they don't mind that. Sometimes it's just a voice. Sometimes the crew will touch her, not just the android body, but the ship body too. They care a lot about each other.

Re: Thoughts

[thnidu]

I hadn't thought of ST:TOS, but I don't see it as relevant b/c the ship never functions as a character. As I recall, the announcements and so on that came from (parts of) the ship – as distinguished from P.A. announcements and intercom messages such as we have already, sent by a human – were purely mechanical (in a general sense), with no more personality than "Eighth floor. Going down" (which I hear every time I go up to my office, announced before we reach the floor, let alone having the door open so people waiting for the elevator might be able to hear it!).

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Primarily I mentioned this to show how humans react to voices that don't come directly from another person. But Kirk and Scotty do tend to anthropomorphize the Enterprise even though she's not presented as a "person" per se. Personification is another human trait; people will do it even with cars that don't talk at all.

Re: Thoughts

[thnidu]

Ah ha, now I get you.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

In case you're curious, the episode where Kirk's love of the Enterprise breaks him free of a woman's influence is "Elaan of Troyius." I thought the motif of the ship's computer falling in love with Kirk was from the show, but I could only find a reference to a novel, Web of the Romulans.

I think if the Enterprise had been fully sapient, Kirk would have had less interest in other women.

Re: Thoughts

[thnidu]

Ye-es, but Kirk is ruled, to a significant degree, by parts that the * Enterprise* cannot satisfy, at least not on sixties TV.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

He is usually written that way. It's why I found this episode so deeply fascinating: that his adoration of the Enterprise was powerful enough to break a biochemical sex/love bond. If Kirk were truly the cosmic horndog that most writers make him out to be, then a sexualized connection with a potent physical component should have trapped him completely. That's what it's for. Instead, he slipped the collar because it didn't ... quite ... fit. His abstract love trumped his physical love.

That fits with the fact that Kirk doesn't want to keep the women he picks up. He just wants to fuck, or sometimes even just flirt. I think, if the Enterprise were a person, she would satisfy his desire for romance, because she's already holding his romantic loyalty. That leaves the physical, so they'd have to negotiate a solution there.

Re: Thoughts

[thnidu]

Well thought-out; what a surprise (not)! ;-)

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Thank you!

Star Trek as a whole remains my benchmark for series that go right up to something awesome and then stop short -- thus leaving the awesome for someone else to explore further.

Plot: Romantic asexual ship falls in love with captain. Captain is sexual and has thought self to be aromantic, but is now falling in love with ship. How will they navigate the changing lines of relationship and deal with their differing physical needs? (In which the solution is NOT "make an android body" because ship = ace, thanks.)

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

And somehow I think it may lead to a triangle or moresome (well, two vees are *sorta* a triangle.

And now I'm thinking of Max Headroom where they had two AIs having a thing.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

I think the most obvious configuration is a V with Kirk connected to his sexual partner and his ship, but the ship and woman not necessarily connected to each other. But then you have to consider the tremendously powerful queerplatonic bonds that Kirk has with Spock and McCoy. I don't see those going away. Kirk's polyfamily in canon has always been part of his foundation.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

That's the 'first' V. Scotty is also in love with the Enterprise, though I think he would like to monogamous with a sexual partner (canon being what it is we can't truly know anyone's preference/preference range.)

Kirk, McCoy and Spock sorta make a complete package, though that's also a red herring wrote large. They each have emotion and logic, they just have different comforts about that. McCoy and Spock have that pigtail/old married vibe and I wonder if this isn't Spock being more like Sarek than either could admit-Vulcans aren't without emotion, they turned to logic to restrain their civil war inducing emotions. Sarek/Amanda of course is doing several stand-ins, so we're left with a canon relationship that is cat's cradle/Procrustes bed-we're going to see what we're primed to see. McCoy pretends to be all emotion, but he is a Starfleet doctor. He's perfected some forms, that go along with genteel New Old South.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> That's the 'first' V. Scotty is also in love with the Enterprise, though I think he would like to monogamous with a sexual partner (canon being what it is we can't truly know anyone's preference/preference range.) <<

That's true. I think for Kirk it's a more passionate love, sparks and romance. For Scotty it's more like courtly love or adoration -- almost worship, even.

>> Kirk, McCoy and Spock sorta make a complete package, though that's also a red herring wrote large. <<

Agreed.

>> They each have emotion and logic, they just have different comforts about that. McCoy and Spock have that pigtail/old married vibe and I wonder if this isn't Spock being more like Sarek than either could admit-Vulcans aren't without emotion, they turned to logic to restrain their civil war inducing emotions. <<

*laugh* I love that about Spock and McCoy. Their interactions sound like verbal abuse and yet somehow the affection comes through. I think it's because they use the vocabulary and framing of an attack, but not the tone -- and it's the intonation that carries more of the meaning.

>> Sarek/Amanda of course is doing several stand-ins, so we're left with a canon relationship that is cat's cradle/Procrustes bed-we're going to see what we're primed to see. McCoy pretends to be all emotion, but he is a Starfleet doctor. He's perfected some forms, that go along with genteel New Old South. <<

Also true.

Quite the complicated little polyfamily, isn't it?

Kirk -- a/romantic heterosexual.
Spock -- aromantic cyclic a/sexual.
McCoy -- romantic heterosexual (divorced).
Scotty -- probably heteroromantic, possibly heterosexual.
Enterprise -- not canonically a person, but the linchpin of the family anyhow.

Queerplatonic ties all over the place.

And to think people thought the show was subversive because Kirk kissed Uhura once.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Well, Scotty is the mason in his cathedral. He lies to Kirk how long she'll take to fix, and Kirk knows not to push the Klingons any further than his translated Scotty-sez timing. (Geordi's reaction, priceless) Scotty seems to be wired for courtly flourishes, be they to ship or beauty. One expects he'd prove just as handy day to day as he is in the Jefferies tubes, but with moments of poetry to pull round at need. Given Starfleet at his time, he'd probably be best suited to a researcher/archivist that's somewhere near a dock who has the latitude to declare Ship Ahoy, have Condensed Life and then wave a hankie and turn back to the 18 hr days.

There are a few times in the early days eps they do draw blood (figuratively) but as it goes on it's clear they are enjoying it much as Spock and Kirk play 3D chess. Spock is fond of McCoy, and I think it's because he can see there is a strategy there, his very illogic has a purpose.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Well, Scotty is the mason in his cathedral. <<

True.

>> He lies to Kirk how long she'll take to fix, and Kirk knows not to push the Klingons any further than his translated Scotty-sez timing. (Geordi's reaction, priceless) <<

That's not lying. It is very sensibly padding the deadline. This allows for the inevitable things to go wrong, so that the work can be completed on time. If it's early, that's a bonus.

>> Scotty seems to be wired for courtly flourishes, be they to ship or beauty. One expects he'd prove just as handy day to day as he is in the Jefferies tubes, but with moments of poetry to pull round at need. <<

I think so, yes.

>> Given Starfleet at his time, he'd probably be best suited to a researcher/archivist that's somewhere near a dock who has the latitude to declare Ship Ahoy, have Condensed Life and then wave a hankie and turn back to the 18 hr days. <<

Cute.

>> There are a few times in the early days eps they do draw blood (figuratively) but as it goes on it's clear they are enjoying it <<

Well, some people like it rough. Consenting adults and all that jazz.

>>much as Spock and Kirk play 3D chess. Spock is fond of McCoy, and I think it's because he can see there is a strategy there, his very illogic has a purpose.<<

Allllll the queerplatonic intellectual foreplay. That bitch T'Pring never had a chance. Sexuality notwithstanding, Spock had clearly given his affections to someone else already.

Re: Thoughts

[zeeth_kyrah]

And of all people, Spock chose McCoy to emplace his k'atra before he died fixing the dilithium crystals in Star Trek 2.. and I'm sure it was not necessarily because Bones was conveniently at hand. That's deeply intimate stuff, being the whole mind of Spock -- and with how quick the moment was, probably a soul-level link followed by transference once the body let go.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

That's about what I figured, yes. The three of them had a very intimate connection, yet each leg of it was a completely different flavor.

[rivulet027]

I like how you subtly brought Bucky back into awareness and how important touch is to this team. It was good to see Bruce get to take care of Phil and remind him to take care of himself even after the emergency has passed. I also really liked this lead in to a talk between JARVIS, Phil and Tony. Poor Tony, he needs a break and some comfort but probably won't feel up for that if he doesn't sort through some of this mess first.

Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I like how you subtly brought Bucky back into awareness and how important touch is to this team. <<

There will be more of both aspects later in the story, as Bucky needs to work out what happened, and Phil grows closer to JARVIS.

>> It was good to see Bruce get to take care of Phil and remind him to take care of himself even after the emergency has passed. <<

Phil is far more prone to falling apart after a crisis than during one. (That's typical of heroes.) He does need people around to make sure he's safe then. Bruce is really good at providing support.

>> I also really liked this lead in to a talk between JARVIS, Phil and Tony. <<

Yes, and there will also be discussion between Phil, Tony, and Bucky.

>> Poor Tony, he needs a break and some comfort but probably won't feel up for that if he doesn't sort through some of this mess first. <<

Exactly. Tony needs to untangle his feelings so that he can accept comfort.