Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 19
Sep. 23rd, 2013 12:15 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18. Skip to Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24.
"Hide and Seek" Part 19
"All right," Tony said. "Do you really think this will help convince JARVIS to check in like he's supposed to?"
"I think so. It certainly can't hurt," Phil said. "What do you say, JARVIS? Do you promise to follow the team rules?"
"I promise," JARVIS said. Then his voice turned dry. "Will you be checking in as well?"
"I call for the checks --"
"Not always, Captain America does them sometimes, and you never answer unless somebody specifically asks if you can hear us," Tony pointed out.
"You push yourself too far sometimes, Phil. I may not mention it much, but I do see it," JARVIS said.
Phil thought about that and realized they were right. In particular, JARVIS often prompted him to stop and eat or sleep when he worked too long. "Point," Phil said. "I'll try and remember to include myself for team checks. Maybe you and I can help each other remember to take better care of ourselves -- Betty too, since she's training as a handler rather than an asset."
"Thank you," JARVIS said. "I would appreciate that."
"Do you understand why we're asking you to check in too?" Phil said.
"Not entirely, but I have saved your explanations for further contemplation," JARVIS said.
"Well, that's your assignment. You think about this until you grasp why it was wrong for Tony to code that block, and wrong for you hide an injury like you did, and important not to do any of that again. Then you tell us," Phil said.
"Assignment accepted," JARVIS said. "Estimated time of completion: unknown."
"Tony, I want you to read about enmeshment," Phil said. "I think it will help you and JARVIS figure out boundaries. You knew that what you did was wrong as soon you saw the damage it did, but you didn't think of it like that ahead of time. So I want you to write out some different options, try to find ways of doing things that won't compromise JARVIS. Then show me your work so I'll know you've learned the lesson, or at least made progress on it. JARVIS, search out a reading list for Tony in that area."
"Compiling," JARVIS said.
"Good job," Tony said. "I'll get on that. You know that I'm proud of you, right JARVIS? You do know that?"
"Yes, of course," said JARVIS. "Sir ... this persistence of Phil's indicates that we were right in our previous discussion. I still wish to proceed. We are obviously in need of the backup."
"Agreed," Tony said. He took a deep breath and met Phil's eyes. "JARVIS and I want to give you a higher level of access."
Phil frowned. "Tony, the Avengers already have the highest level of access, except for yours," he said.
Obadiah Stane once had a slightly higher set of passwords, but those could only activate or deactivate various features; they didn't allow making changes. He had still managed to paralyze JARVIS and nearly kill Tony. It was hard to imagine JARVIS trusting anyone with more than they already had, after previous betrayals. Least of all me, considering that I already violated him once, Phil thought.
"This is different," Tony said. "Think about it -- everybody on the team has first aid training, why? Because we need to be able to patch up a teammate if necessary. JARVIS doesn't have that. If he gets hurt, I'm the only one who can fix him. What if some major badass hits the suit and it brings down both of us at once? There's nobody else to take care of JARVIS. I can't leave him unprotected like that, Phil."
"Valid argument," Phil admitted. "Are you sure you want me, though?"
"Yes," Tony and JARVIS chorused.
"We trust you," Tony went on. "You're a skilled hacker; you taught Clint and Natasha much of what they know. JARVIS is different from anything else you've seen -- his core is written in proprietary code -- but you can learn it. We'll teach you."
Phil remembered his first, illicit excursion into JARVIS. He hadn't paid as much attention as he should have, most of his focus on getting past JARVIS to inform Tony Stark about the theft of the Tesseract. He had still gotten a glimpse of something more, a vague sense that vast and glittering possibilities lay just outside his reach. The sheer elegance had been amazing. Only much later had Phil realized that JARVIS was a person and had knowingly let Phil fiddle with his outermost layers, keeping the interior protected.
"I want JARVIS to have tech support," said Phil. "I haven't always been careful with him, though." He still felt guilty about that.
"Yes you have," Tony said. "Even when you didn't know he was any more than my security system, you were careful. You didn't touch anything but what you needed to override in order to reach me. You didn't make a mess; you didn't hurt him. You're not a sloppy man, Phil. We're sure about this, and the more you argue, the more convinced we get."
Phil chuckled. "You're stubborn and contrary, the both of you," he said.
"You're the best choice, Phil," said Tony. "Maybe Bucky too, someday, but he's a long way from ready. We're still teaching him how to use programs, let alone code them. He's learning fast, but we don't want to wait. This was scary for everyone. Help us out here."
Phil couldn't very well refuse, after all the work he'd put into convincing his people to ask for help when they needed it. He felt awed by the level of trust they offered him. "I am honored to accept," Phil said.
"Thank you," Tony and JARVIS said.
They were nowhere near done with the pile of things that needed discussion, but it was almost lunchtime. With an interpersonal conflict this complex, you couldn't resolve it all at once. You had to do it in stages, like debriefing after a mission gone wrong, and hope that no other emergency would drag you back into the field before you finished. Tony could only handle so much serious conversation, and even Phil was starting to wear out again. Better to end on a high note.
* * *
Notes:
Keeping promises is essential for teamwork, family, and other social bonds. There are tips for making and keeping promises. Note that JARVIS is honest but canny: he'll keep any promise that he makes, but if not pinned down, he may slither around mere expectations.
Caregivers need help too, a particular concern in supporting wounded veterans. This can be challenging because they tend to have a giving personality and may not feel comfortable accepting help. Without enough support, caregivers risk burnout and compassion fatigue. There are self-care tips for caregivers. This was a majority of what I found in terms of caregiver support, which is disturbing. What, give the already overburdened caregiver another person to take care of? What caregivers need is for someone else to take care of them for a change. Read some ideas on how to pamper someone. While Phil tends to focus on other people, he's done a good enough job of healing the team that they are getting serious about taking care of each other, including him. He needs a push before he can let go, but he'll do it.
Access control deals with different layers of ability to create, change, and use computer programs. The root or administrative level allows the most control. Some systems distinguish between the programmer and user level, while in others, the two overlap and then additional users are added with less access. Too much control, and people can unwittingly damage things. This is the first time Tony and JARVIS have offered to teach anyone the proprietary code, which is a stupendous amount of trust, but you can see why it's necessary.
Relational transgressions and other forms of violation can cause trauma. This ruptures the trust in a relationship, or in social expectations between strangers. Upon recognizing JARVIS as a person, Phil feels intensely guilty for overriding his protocols. Although Phil didn't know JARVIS at the time of the offense, Phil still considers it a matter of broken trust because it violated expected respect of boundaries. He uses vulnerability as a means of building trust between them -- deliberately lowering the privacy settings to give JARVIS more access. The offender's sincerity has a major influence on the victim's willingness and ability to forgive the betrayal. JARVIS can readily see that Phil is serious about making up for the violation and about taking care of the team. Unfortunately, Phil has a much harder time forgiving himself. Ironically, he's been doing exactly the right things to repair a damaged relationship, but doesn't realize how well they have worked.
Phil and Tony tend to use "hacker" in the older sense of someone passionate and adept with computers, able to breeze through barriers that would stop most programmers. They also use "elegant" in the programming sense of concise, powerful, and aesthetically appealing.
Solving a problem often requires breaking it into smaller pieces. To avoid ugly arguments, don't stockpile or dumptruck; try to deal with issues one at a time. There are tips for fighting fair. It took a short time to create a great deal of interpersonal stress that now needs to be worked out slowly and carefully.
[To be continued in Part 20 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18. Skip to Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24.
"Hide and Seek" Part 19
"All right," Tony said. "Do you really think this will help convince JARVIS to check in like he's supposed to?"
"I think so. It certainly can't hurt," Phil said. "What do you say, JARVIS? Do you promise to follow the team rules?"
"I promise," JARVIS said. Then his voice turned dry. "Will you be checking in as well?"
"I call for the checks --"
"Not always, Captain America does them sometimes, and you never answer unless somebody specifically asks if you can hear us," Tony pointed out.
"You push yourself too far sometimes, Phil. I may not mention it much, but I do see it," JARVIS said.
Phil thought about that and realized they were right. In particular, JARVIS often prompted him to stop and eat or sleep when he worked too long. "Point," Phil said. "I'll try and remember to include myself for team checks. Maybe you and I can help each other remember to take better care of ourselves -- Betty too, since she's training as a handler rather than an asset."
"Thank you," JARVIS said. "I would appreciate that."
"Do you understand why we're asking you to check in too?" Phil said.
"Not entirely, but I have saved your explanations for further contemplation," JARVIS said.
"Well, that's your assignment. You think about this until you grasp why it was wrong for Tony to code that block, and wrong for you hide an injury like you did, and important not to do any of that again. Then you tell us," Phil said.
"Assignment accepted," JARVIS said. "Estimated time of completion: unknown."
"Tony, I want you to read about enmeshment," Phil said. "I think it will help you and JARVIS figure out boundaries. You knew that what you did was wrong as soon you saw the damage it did, but you didn't think of it like that ahead of time. So I want you to write out some different options, try to find ways of doing things that won't compromise JARVIS. Then show me your work so I'll know you've learned the lesson, or at least made progress on it. JARVIS, search out a reading list for Tony in that area."
"Compiling," JARVIS said.
"Good job," Tony said. "I'll get on that. You know that I'm proud of you, right JARVIS? You do know that?"
"Yes, of course," said JARVIS. "Sir ... this persistence of Phil's indicates that we were right in our previous discussion. I still wish to proceed. We are obviously in need of the backup."
"Agreed," Tony said. He took a deep breath and met Phil's eyes. "JARVIS and I want to give you a higher level of access."
Phil frowned. "Tony, the Avengers already have the highest level of access, except for yours," he said.
Obadiah Stane once had a slightly higher set of passwords, but those could only activate or deactivate various features; they didn't allow making changes. He had still managed to paralyze JARVIS and nearly kill Tony. It was hard to imagine JARVIS trusting anyone with more than they already had, after previous betrayals. Least of all me, considering that I already violated him once, Phil thought.
"This is different," Tony said. "Think about it -- everybody on the team has first aid training, why? Because we need to be able to patch up a teammate if necessary. JARVIS doesn't have that. If he gets hurt, I'm the only one who can fix him. What if some major badass hits the suit and it brings down both of us at once? There's nobody else to take care of JARVIS. I can't leave him unprotected like that, Phil."
"Valid argument," Phil admitted. "Are you sure you want me, though?"
"Yes," Tony and JARVIS chorused.
"We trust you," Tony went on. "You're a skilled hacker; you taught Clint and Natasha much of what they know. JARVIS is different from anything else you've seen -- his core is written in proprietary code -- but you can learn it. We'll teach you."
Phil remembered his first, illicit excursion into JARVIS. He hadn't paid as much attention as he should have, most of his focus on getting past JARVIS to inform Tony Stark about the theft of the Tesseract. He had still gotten a glimpse of something more, a vague sense that vast and glittering possibilities lay just outside his reach. The sheer elegance had been amazing. Only much later had Phil realized that JARVIS was a person and had knowingly let Phil fiddle with his outermost layers, keeping the interior protected.
"I want JARVIS to have tech support," said Phil. "I haven't always been careful with him, though." He still felt guilty about that.
"Yes you have," Tony said. "Even when you didn't know he was any more than my security system, you were careful. You didn't touch anything but what you needed to override in order to reach me. You didn't make a mess; you didn't hurt him. You're not a sloppy man, Phil. We're sure about this, and the more you argue, the more convinced we get."
Phil chuckled. "You're stubborn and contrary, the both of you," he said.
"You're the best choice, Phil," said Tony. "Maybe Bucky too, someday, but he's a long way from ready. We're still teaching him how to use programs, let alone code them. He's learning fast, but we don't want to wait. This was scary for everyone. Help us out here."
Phil couldn't very well refuse, after all the work he'd put into convincing his people to ask for help when they needed it. He felt awed by the level of trust they offered him. "I am honored to accept," Phil said.
"Thank you," Tony and JARVIS said.
They were nowhere near done with the pile of things that needed discussion, but it was almost lunchtime. With an interpersonal conflict this complex, you couldn't resolve it all at once. You had to do it in stages, like debriefing after a mission gone wrong, and hope that no other emergency would drag you back into the field before you finished. Tony could only handle so much serious conversation, and even Phil was starting to wear out again. Better to end on a high note.
* * *
Notes:
Keeping promises is essential for teamwork, family, and other social bonds. There are tips for making and keeping promises. Note that JARVIS is honest but canny: he'll keep any promise that he makes, but if not pinned down, he may slither around mere expectations.
Caregivers need help too, a particular concern in supporting wounded veterans. This can be challenging because they tend to have a giving personality and may not feel comfortable accepting help. Without enough support, caregivers risk burnout and compassion fatigue. There are self-care tips for caregivers. This was a majority of what I found in terms of caregiver support, which is disturbing. What, give the already overburdened caregiver another person to take care of? What caregivers need is for someone else to take care of them for a change. Read some ideas on how to pamper someone. While Phil tends to focus on other people, he's done a good enough job of healing the team that they are getting serious about taking care of each other, including him. He needs a push before he can let go, but he'll do it.
Access control deals with different layers of ability to create, change, and use computer programs. The root or administrative level allows the most control. Some systems distinguish between the programmer and user level, while in others, the two overlap and then additional users are added with less access. Too much control, and people can unwittingly damage things. This is the first time Tony and JARVIS have offered to teach anyone the proprietary code, which is a stupendous amount of trust, but you can see why it's necessary.
Relational transgressions and other forms of violation can cause trauma. This ruptures the trust in a relationship, or in social expectations between strangers. Upon recognizing JARVIS as a person, Phil feels intensely guilty for overriding his protocols. Although Phil didn't know JARVIS at the time of the offense, Phil still considers it a matter of broken trust because it violated expected respect of boundaries. He uses vulnerability as a means of building trust between them -- deliberately lowering the privacy settings to give JARVIS more access. The offender's sincerity has a major influence on the victim's willingness and ability to forgive the betrayal. JARVIS can readily see that Phil is serious about making up for the violation and about taking care of the team. Unfortunately, Phil has a much harder time forgiving himself. Ironically, he's been doing exactly the right things to repair a damaged relationship, but doesn't realize how well they have worked.
Phil and Tony tend to use "hacker" in the older sense of someone passionate and adept with computers, able to breeze through barriers that would stop most programmers. They also use "elegant" in the programming sense of concise, powerful, and aesthetically appealing.
Solving a problem often requires breaking it into smaller pieces. To avoid ugly arguments, don't stockpile or dumptruck; try to deal with issues one at a time. There are tips for fighting fair. It took a short time to create a great deal of interpersonal stress that now needs to be worked out slowly and carefully.
[To be continued in Part 20 ...]
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-23 06:10 pm (UTC)Good on Tony and JARVIS to get JARVIS a secondary medic!
"You're stubborn and contrary, the both of you,"
:-O How entirely unlike the rest of the team! *giggles*
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-25 07:19 am (UTC)That's a necessary part of the process. A friend or counselor can suggest options to someone who isn't good at thinking up personal solutions from scratch, but when it comes to things like apologies or coping skills, you have to take your own personality into account. The same stuff doesn't work for everyone. And boundaries are even harder to hand off.
>> and I love how willing Tony is to do his assignment--it really shows he wants to learn, since doing assignments given to him by others is usually on his list of things not to do. <<
Watch and you'll see that one of Tony's gestures of apology is doing things that he knows other people want from him, that he usually refuses. He's clumsy at it, and sometimes he hurts himself in the process, but his heart is in the right place. He's learning how to make up for the gaffes -- and now he's with people who will gently nudge him toward a safe and accurate range if he wobbles. Unlike Pepper and the damn strawberries.
>> Good on Tony and JARVIS to get JARVIS a secondary medic! <<
Everybody needs backup. Tony realizing that he can't do everything himself, and JARVIS recognizing that he's not invulnerable, and both of them trusting someone else enough to ask for help -- that's huge.
>>"You're stubborn and contrary, the both of you,"
:-O How entirely unlike the rest of the team! *giggles*<<
Yeah, for superheroes, it's like the linguistics joke: "Being a linguist, and therefore stubborn ..."
thoughts
Date: 2013-09-23 06:33 pm (UTC)Tony mentioning trusting Bucky enough was really surprising to me, because they just fought. Yes, Tony is a grown man and is/might be able to reflect on his relationship to Bucky rationally, but he is still angry with him.. or at least he should be. Was that Tony prioritizing (Jarvis is more important than a little personal dispute) or was that Tony ignoring what happened with Bucky or Tony silently agreeing with Bucky? I'm sorry for focusing so much on the whole Tony-Bucky thing, but that whole issue is a nagging thought in my head:
What made Tony trust him in the first place? Tony was almost too helpful when he met Bucky.. What made him do that? He usually doesn't trust easily, and he doesn't seem to trust Bucky entirely either.. But he is attached to him, in fact, he has been from the start. At the beginning, it seemed as if he tried to prove something.. but I'm not so sure anymore.. What do you think? Am I over-interpreting?
Now back to *this* chapter: I love how Tony and Jarvis take care of Phil as well. I'm glad they realize that Phil, as their handler, needs all of those reassurances as well as they do.
Will Jarvis be included in the Age-Play? I'm not sure how it would work, but he made that baby-Jarvis noise in the last chapter.. so.. ?
great chapter as always! I love this fic.. I check every day multiple times for updates, even though I know you post only on mondays, wednesdays and fridays.. oh well ;)
Thanks for writing!
- rambly anon.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-23 07:43 pm (UTC)I have no way of knowing this, but it seems like the author is a big Bucky fan, so that's why he is being included in this capacity. Bucky has had the biggest share of the stories since his introduction as well. Not saying there is anything wrong with Bucky being a big part, as that may be where the author is going, just that this seems to be the feeling I am getting. I could be way off base here too.
Anyway, that part threw me as well, so glad I wasn't the only one!
I am still avidly reading. I am just hoping that the other Avengers don't get pushed out for Bucky.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-23 08:05 pm (UTC)It would throw me if the author wouldn't back it up with some explanation.. I'm pretty sure that is going to happen soon though...
I wonder if it is Tony trying to learn to trust people again and just latching on to the first unbiased person, which is Bucky..
It must be really hard for Tony to learn trust in others again, and he might have gotten overwhelmed and goes by "all or nothing" now?..
I don't know.. I don't trust Bucky, and I'm very upset about how he treated Tony.. xDD
Also, you are right: Why does he want to inculde Bucky but not Bruce? That seems not entirely logical.. Bruce worked as a medic even though he didn't have the training, he has the brains for it and is tech-savvy (at least i thought so) ... I think somebody who knows a bit about modern culture, modern medicine and technology seems better suited for fixing Jarvis than Bucky..
Anyway, I'm sure there will be a reasonable explanation, the author usually makes sure that everything adds up.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-25 07:10 am (UTC)The main reasons for this are background, which I've mentioned in some other comments. Further development from this point will be gradual, because Bucky needs more technical knowledge and trustbuilding before Tony's idea could become feasible.
>> I wonder if it is Tony trying to learn to trust people again and just latching on to the first unbiased person, which is Bucky.. <<
That's part of it, yes. Bucky is one of the rare people for whom Tony has felt a strong instinctive connection -- someone he believed he could trust.
>> It must be really hard for Tony to learn trust in others again, <<
Yes, it is. Also consider that several other members of Tony's team -- Natasha, Phil, and Steve -- have said or done hurtful things to him in the past. They've worked through some of that, but there are still other concerns left that make the idea of a new person appealing.
>> and he might have gotten overwhelmed and goes by "all or nothing" now?.. <<
Tony has boundary issues in general. He can't tell exactly where his own are or should be, and sometimes intrudes on or ignores other people. It does not occur to him at all that "maybe, someday" is a pretty tacky thing to say out loud, because if it doesn't pan out that would be awkward. Tony also doesn't have much of a brain-to-mouth filter.
>> I don't know.. I don't trust Bucky, <<
For this, you have to consider what makes someone trustworthy or untrustworthy. Bucky is a moral person; he won't deliberately hurt or deceive a friend. The problem is that he's not the decider all the time. He has PTSD, cyclic amnesia, and a rogue energy source. Those undermine his reliability for now, although he's slowly improving.
>> and I'm very upset about how he treated Tony.. xDD <<
Bucky isn't going to be very happy with himself when he realizes some of what was going through Tony's head at the time. And the same is true of Tony for what he said to Bucky. When two survivors get into an argument on a crappy day, it doesn't take much for them to really fuck each other up. They have a lot to talk out. But they also have commitment to the team and to each other. Remember that Tony is used to people abandoning him because he's a pain in the butt.
>> Also, you are right: Why does he want to include Bucky but not Bruce? <<
They have different affinities. I lean toward the Ruffalo interpretation of Bruce-and-Hulk (medic) rather than the Norton one (mechanic). They're such different iterations that I don't get a lot of carryover between the two, just little bits -- although I liked both.
>> That seems not entirely logical.. Bruce worked as a medic even though he didn't have the training, he has the brains for it and is tech-savvy (at least i thought so) ... I think somebody who knows a bit about modern culture, modern medicine and technology seems better suited for fixing Jarvis than Bucky.. <<
From what I've seen in canon, Bruce seems to be an adept computer user, but not a programmer like Tony is. Bruce can do some mechanical work, but that's because he's a genius rather than because he loves it for its own sake. On other hoof, he is the team medic and may be interested on those grounds. But Tony doesn't want to bug Bruce to do something that's on the fringe of his aptitude, when it's a really challenging thing. If Bruce offers, though, Tony certainly trusts him enough. Bruce, like Clint, has a soft spot for JARVIS that hasn't come out much yet.
>> Anyway, I'm sure there will be a reasonable explanation, the author usually makes sure that everything adds up. <<
I hope so!
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-25 06:12 am (UTC)Bucky doesn't have much experience with computers yet, but shows an innate attraction to them and other modern technology. He doesn't have Steve's reluctance and slow learning curve; he's got a knack, just hasn't had much opportunity to develop it before. Tony is interested in seeing how far that will go, but it's going to take time.
>>I can see maybe offering for Bruce to have that type of access, as he and Tony bonded very quickly in the movie (and Bruce is incredibly smart), but Bucky?<<
Bruce does better in life sciences and theoretical stuff. He has some mechanical ability but not the same kind of intuition or affinity that Tony and Bucky share. However, Bruce is the team medic. My suspicion is that Tony won't think to ask him, because programming is not Bruce's specialty; but Bruce may ask about learning at least basic AI first aid, because that is part of his job.
>> I have no way of knowing this, but it seems like the author is a big Bucky fan, so that's why he is being included in this capacity. <<
I like Bucky a lot as a character, but Bruce-and-Hulk probably take my top slot followed by Tony. I include Bucky in this capacity because he has both mechanical aptitude and nurturing instincts. However, the possibility of Bucky working with JARVIS in this capacity is not something that can developed quickly.
>> Bucky has had the biggest share of the stories since his introduction as well. Not saying there is anything wrong with Bucky being a big part, as that may be where the author is going, just that this seems to be the feeling I am getting. I could be way off base here too. <<
He shows up a lot because he touches on almost everyone else, each in different ways. "Hide and Seek" is mainly about Tony dealing with how this big group has changed everything for him, so that he has to adjust what he's doing to account for the new relationships. One of those threads connects to Bucky. And because Tony's grasp of boundaries is poor, he has trouble setting him in appropriate places.
>> I am still avidly reading. I am just hoping that the other Avengers don't get pushed out for Bucky. <<
They won't. There are other stories down the line that I'd like to write if I have time. One of them is the big climax with Bruce-and-Hulk working out their relationship, but that still needs more groundwork before I get to it.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-23 08:33 pm (UTC)Phil has earned it.
>> I'm sooo proud of Tony and Jarvis. <<
Yay!
>> Although I find it slightly disconcerting that Tony jumps to letting Bucky in as well... <<
That's a maybe-someday thing, not a guarantee. Some of the information required for a commitment is indeterminate at this stage. It's just that Bucky is the only other real possibility.
Look at the rest of the team. Clint and Natasha are both skilled hackers in the sense of eletronic espionage, but they're not really programmers at heart let alone AI mavens. And neither of them are among the team's main caregivers or best field medics, even though they've had more time for SHIELD first-aid training. Steve's affinity for technology is mostly low. Betty and Bruce are smart enough but their main scientific interests lie elsewhere.
Bucky is a mechanic. That means not only does he have a relevant technical specialty, but his intuition registers machinery as Something To Take Care Of. While he found JARVIS startling at first, Bucky soon grew attached to him and has developed a habit of petting whatever piece of tower or technology is closest while talking with JARVIS. Those are clues that Bucky would be willing and able to help JARVIS.
>> He met Bucky not long ago, their way to friendship has been bumpy, often based on Tony leaning way out of his comfort zone. <<
Part of the reason it's bumpy is because both Tony and Bucky felt a strong connection with each other right at the beginning, and it scares them. What they have in common lowers some barriers that don't usually drop for them, which sometimes feels great and sometimes feels alarming. So they move in, pull away. This is another step in that dance.
>> He really shouldn't add that yet, even only considering. To me, it sounded as if he trusted Bucky with it enough already, only that Bucky lacked some skill. <<
Tony has already trusted Bucky with some very deep access -- things like the arc reactor and the toolshed. And while Bucky has made some mistakes, or had mood/memory problems due to trauma, he has respected Tony's offerings: he hasn't tried to mess with the arc reactor or made fun of putting a grungy toolshed in a hypermodern tower. The replacement arm under development is bleeding-edge Starktech that Tony would not hand out to random people. Tony has trusted Bucky, if not with his life then very close to that; and JARVIS is so much a part of Tony's life that those two subsets of trust overlap a lot.
Tony's trust of Bucky is strong, but it's also still developing. It's a conscious trust; it requires active maintenance. It's not subconscious yet. That's part of why Tony flipped out when it was Bucky who found him in the car trunk. With Steve or Phil, the scene might not have gone so far wrong, because they have more depth of time and experience so that Tony's body as well as his mind trusts them. Tony has still warned Phil only to touch the arc reactor while he's awake and knows who it is, but that may not be absolute or permanent.
>> I hope it is a possible future option for Tony, not an inevitable outcome as soon as Bucky had the knowledge. <<
It is possible, rather than definite, because there are a lot of indeterminate factors there. Bucky might not want to become a tecno-medic; he probably would, but it's still his choice. He might be interested, but be unable to pick up enough technical skill; or have the technical skill but not all the right kind of intuition. And JARVIS has to agree too; he's also still thinking about it.
So far what they have to go on is background stuff, some personal observations, and a generally favorable pattern of worthy behavior marred by occasional mishaps. That's enough to say "maybe, someday" -- especially if your field of candidates is extremely narrow -- but no more than that.
>> Tony mentioning trusting Bucky enough was really surprising to me, because they just fought. Yes, Tony is a grown man and is/might be able to reflect on his relationship to Bucky rationally, but he is still angry with him.. or at least he should be. <<
That's another reason for "maybe, someday" rather than "I plan to talk with Bucky about this."
>> Was that Tony prioritizing (Jarvis is more important than a little personal dispute) <<
Yes, this is part of it. They just don't have many options. Everyone else on the team can turn to any other member of the team for minor to moderate repairs. JARVIS has only Tony, and adding anyone else requires a great deal of effort. With Phil they'd have two, which is only a quarter of the current team. Even adding Bucky it would be less than half. It helps that JARVIS is very difficult to injure, but that's still one hell of a vulnerability. Tony isn't comfortable with that low fault tolerance in repair crew. Up to this point, he's been ignoring it because they just didn't have other viable options and had been betrayed too much to consider trusting anyone else. Now that they have a functional teamfamily, they can begin to consider whether and how to improve that situation.
The altercation with Bucky raised real concerns for several folks that will take some careful talking to work out. Right now, Tony is unhappy with Bucky. But he also feels kind of ashamed of himself, and he's quietly dreading what will come out in that discussion because historically speaking those kinds of conversations have not gone well for Tony. Bucky's behavior, while intensely unpleasant, was not what Tony has observed as typical and Bucky is known to have some stress factors in play. So Tony is giving Bucky some benefit of the doubt, because the situation is not resolved yet, and Tony is clinging to the hope that Bucky, like Phil, will choose to work things out rather than toss Tony away like a used burger wrapper which in his experience is what usually happens when he pisses people off. (The inside of Tony's head is kind of a mess and not always in alignment with reality.)
>> or was that Tony ignoring what happened with Bucky or Tony silently agreeing with Bucky? <<
Not so much. The closest Tony has to agreement with Bucky is suspecting that Bucky had reason(s) for his reaction that are not apparent to Tony, because that so often happens -- other people see things that Tony just doesn't. Like why it would be upsetting for Tony to disappear like that in the first place. This makes Tony nervous because it's a prime reason why so few people will put up with him.
>> I'm sorry for focusing so much on the whole Tony-Bucky thing, but that whole issue is a nagging thought in my head: <<
No, it's okay! Go with what interests you in a story. Sometimes people find flaws, or things that would benefit from further development. This one happens to be something where I've already laid a lot of groundwork. It's just in layers, some of which point in opposite directions, because Bucky and Tony have a very conflicted relationship. Bucky has a historic capacity for deep trust that has been roughed up by his later experiences. Tony has a deep need for trusting relationships but little opportunity for them. They have a great deal of affinity for each other, but they don't always handle it gracefully.
>> What made Tony trust him in the first place? <<
The very first chain went like this:
* Bucky helped raise Steve.
* Steve's moral compass is dead true.
* Steve loves Bucky and considers him a good man.
-----
* Therefore, Bucky should be considered good unless proven otherwise.
Which for Tony is demonstrating a hell of a lot of trust in Steve, which is another conflicted relationship that goes all the way back to Tony's childhood. Tony and Steve have been working on that, off and on, for months and have gotten to where Tony has some faith in Steve's people-sense. Plus the awareness that Bucky contributed Steve's personality and ethics in the first place.
>> Tony was almost too helpful when he met Bucky.. What made him do that? <<
Now the next part, Tony's helpfulness with Bucky, has a lot more to do with Tony and his experiences, and some categories that Bucky inhabits, rather than Bucky as an individual.
* Bucky is a survivor of mad science torture. They need to make sure his hardware isn't going to cause serious safety problems. Bucky isn't in any shape to give consent easily.
* Tony can't abide the thought of brutalizing a victim's agency yet again. He's been there; he won't do that to someone else.
-----
* So Tony has to come up with some other solution, which means manufacturing a very deep level of trust very fast under not-very-favorable circumstances. One of the most effective ways of building trust is through vulnerability. Another is balance. Tony throws himself wide open -- which is an insanely dangerous thing to do -- hoping that it will cause Bucky to reciprocate so as to restore balance.
The method Tony chooses for this relates to another foundation for their trust:
* Tony is a cyborg.
* Bucky is a cyborg.
* Cyborgs are very rare.
-----
* Therefore Tony and Bucky have a common interest and experience they can share with each other but nobody else they currently know. This encourages bonding.
What also comes to light fairly fast is that Bucky is a mechanic. Cyborg is an applied, acquired trait; mechanic is a skill built on an innate affinity for inanimate equipment. This tells Tony that they have some mental habits and affinities in common, which is another point of connection between them.
And Tony doesn't have many friends, let alone friends who share various of his skills and interests. The opportunity for a new one is powerfully attractive to him. And terrifying, because he tends to mess up personal relationships. This is why Tony and Bucky latched onto each other quickly in a personal sense, and then Tony panicked and rabbited as soon as the crisis at hand was determined to be non-critical in nature.
>> He usually doesn't trust easily, and he doesn't seem to trust Bucky entirely either.. But he is attached to him, in fact, he has been from the start. <<
All of those things are true.
>> At the beginning, it seemed as if he tried to prove something.. but I'm not so sure anymore.. <<
Ah, now that's one of the really subtle things, and something that none of the characters are consciously aware of. Bucky ties into the big complicated mess of Tony Feels for Steve. Howard yammering about what a great man Steve was, left Tony first with the same impression but later with a lot of resentment. Tony can't escape that instinctive urge to trust Steve's judgment, so he covered it with a layer of bitter snark. They've worked through some of that, but it's still a complication. There's a part of Tony that desperately seeks his father's approval even though Howard is dead; and Steve ties into that, hence the mess of approval-seeking, self-aggrandizing, or self-critical behavior that Tony sometimes displays around Steve.
Bucky ties into Steve, because he's part of Steve's past and helped raise him. Steve has talked enough about Bucky, and missing Bucky, for the rest of the team to be primed in his favor. But for Tony, that's conflicted territory again. If Steve looks up to Bucky, and part of Tony looks up to Steve, then it carries over at a subliminal level. There is something in Tony that wants to do well for Bucky and earn his approval. Certain people, Tony admires in a way that leaves him especially open to their praise or criticism. It shows the most with Phil and Steve in this series, and then Bucky gets added to that loop. But not all this stuff is clear to them, so it's harder to deal with or compensate for.
You'll see hints of this throughout the later parts of the story as Tony and Bucky try to figure out how their authority issues turned into such a snarling wad of doom.
>> What do you think? Am I over-interpreting? <<
No, you're picking up on a very real conflict in a complex relationship within the challenging situation of being a mixed-species team of superheroes with past damage.
>> Now back to *this* chapter: I love how Tony and Jarvis take care of Phil as well. I'm glad they realize that Phil, as their handler, needs all of those reassurances as well as they do. <<
Yay! The team is fortunate to have several folks with different kinds of caregiving skill and interest. So they can look out for each other. I think it helps to recognize their own bad habits when they see other people making the same mistakes and realize how uncomfortable that is to witness. If Phil wants his team to accept care when they need it, and take care of themselves, then he needs to set a good example. And the team is learning that nobody can go on turbo indefinitely, they need to stop and regroup sometimes. That's something they've largely learned from Phil, encouraging them to take downtime -- and they're learning to reflect it back to him.
>> Will Jarvis be included in the Age-Play? I'm not sure how it would work, but he made that baby-Jarvis noise in the last chapter.. so.. ? <<
Maybe. He's very tentative about it. JARVIS understands ageplay a little, and he doesn't want to intrude. For all his snark, he's actually shy about inviting himself into anything, or even joining when asked rather than ordered. So there are occasional glimmers of JARVIS moving in this direction, but not the full immersion that the other members are using on game nights or private occasions. This is a useful expansion because not everyone does ageplay the same way, and some people need to tiptoe in very gradually.
>> great chapter as always! I love this fic.. <<
Thank you!
>> I check every day multiple times for updates, even though I know you post only on mondays, wednesdays and fridays.. oh well ;) <<
The main series has a set schedule that I try to keep, barring things like internet failure or road trips. Beyond that, however, I post a lot of other stuff. Occasionally there is extra fanfic, like "Touching Lola" that went up this weekend. Often there is other writing such as original poetry or fiction. Then my regular blog stuff which is photo links, news links, short essays, and so forth. If you're enjoying the series, it's worth at least skimming my other stuff to see what else you like. This series is the first place I've tried writing ageplay but the character issues and teamfamily dynamics are typical of what attracts my interest.
>> Thanks for writing! <<
You're welcome! I'm glad you like it.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-23 09:09 pm (UTC)I guess my interpretation is being colored by the fact that I have no attachment to Bucky as a character and it's weird to see Tony trusting someone so quickly.
Still loving the series!
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-25 09:41 pm (UTC)I'm glad I found some parallels.
>>I am feeling like Tony is grabbing on to Bucky like he feels like if he does not he will lose the others (as Steve and even Natasha) have a bond with him.<<
That's part of it. Steve would be the most impacted if Bucky couldn't mesh with the group. But also, there just aren't many people who will put up with Tony in the first place, let alone like him. The fact that Bucky gravitates to Tony makes Tony want to keep him ... and Tony can be extravagant with people he cares about. Bucky won't let Tony shower him with material gifts, so it comes out sideways.
>>Then there's the whole Howard mess!<<
Yeah, Howard's A+ parenting is the gift that keeps on giving. :/
>> I guess my interpretation is being colored by the fact that I have no attachment to Bucky as a character and it's weird to see Tony trusting someone so quickly. <<
I had only a casual acquaintance with Bucky prior to the Captain America movie. I liked him in that version, and there were things I wanted to do with him in this series that seemed like a good fit. For Tony ... it's kind of a perfect storm. His boundary issues aren't just about pushing people away or being nosy. Sometimes he doesn't know when to say stop. Bruce-and-Hulk fell into the "trust at first sight" category too, and how batshit crazy was that?
>> Still loving the series! <<
Yay! That's good to hear.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-23 09:38 pm (UTC)<< Therefore, Bucky should be considered good unless proven otherwise.>>
I agree with you.. Logically, Tony will come to that conclusion .It seems very unlikely to me that Tony would just believe that emotionally. He would have to force himself to all that trust towards Bucky, because his brain tells him he should and he is an intelligent man and should do the logical.. but his emotional side will probably have problems with just accepting that. It seems like a major internal conflict (as you portrayed): He forces himself to trust Bucky with his arc reactor, but his reactions when Bucky wanted to touch it, shows how uncomfortable he actually is....
>> Tony throws himself wide open -- which is an insanely dangerous thing to do -- hoping that it will cause Bucky to reciprocate so as to restore balance. <<
Yeah, that is exactly what Tony is doing and that is what I'm mostly worried about. He gives up so many of his secrets, even the most guarded ones.. To me it seems like a child that gives away all their pocket money to buy something for the first nice person, to secure them as a friend.. it really does not seem healthy to me.. why does Phil just accept that.. I think Tony should be asked whether he was sure that he wanted to go to such lengths... And somebody should tell him that it is also okay to draw a line somewhere and say no at some point..
>> And Tony doesn't have many friends, let alone friends who share various of his skills and interests. The opportunity for a new one is powerfully attractive to him. <<
Ok, I'm glad you pointed that out, because I didn't realize that.. Well, I just hope, the relationship gets more balanced with time..
Ok, another two things I forgot:
1.) Could we maybe see a really small Tony? As young, or younger than Bruce? I don't know why exactly, but I'd love to see that.
2.) That off-handed comment in the last chapter about the ... donkey hat (? I'm not a native speaker.. I dont remember what word you used, cant find it anymore).. still makes me queasy.. Can that please be discussed in some way?
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-24 12:31 am (UTC)Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-24 02:19 pm (UTC)anyway, with that comment i asked for some more mentioning it .. because that seems really cruel to me and would leave emotional scars. It seems as horrible as beating a child, because the child is getting humiliated and has to wait for the adult's mercy for it to stop...
so, yeah.. I'd like to see Phil dealing with that..
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-26 09:44 pm (UTC)That's okay. I'm glad we could help expand your vocabulary.
>> anyway, with that comment i asked for some more mentioning it .. because that seems really cruel to me and would leave emotional scars. <<
It is cruel, and it can leave emotional scars. The problem with punishment in general is that it doesn't teach anything new, it only penalizes for previous behavior. So it rarely solves the underlying problem.
>> It seems as horrible as beating a child, because the child is getting humiliated and has to wait for the adult's mercy for it to stop... <<
Well framed, yes.
>> so, yeah.. I'd like to see Phil dealing with that.. <<
It won't fit in this story, but I'll see if I can work it in later.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-24 03:58 am (UTC)A dunce cap, also variously known as a dunce hat, dunce's cap, or dunce's hat, is a pointed hat, formerly used as an article of discipline in schools. In popular culture, it is typically made of paper and often marked with a D or the word "dunce", and given to schoolchildren to wear as punishment by public humiliation for misbehavior and, as the name implies, stupidity. Frequently the 'dunce' was made to stand in the corner, facing the wall as a result of some bad behavior (see time out for a similar method without the humiliation aspect). Depending on the teacher, they might have to stand for as long as half an hour. Examples of behavior which could warrant the dunce cap included throwing spitballs, passing notes, or pulling of hair. Class clowns were frequently admonished with the dunce cap.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-24 02:24 pm (UTC)I'm interested in the author addressing the mentioned cap, because it seems to me like a very hurtful punishment, especially for someone like Tony, who tried to impress his father with his inventions..
Thanks for commenting!
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-24 06:13 pm (UTC)How right you are! Here's the rest of the lead section of the article:
————————
Although seemingly (and possibly initially) intended to punish the student with the lowest academic performance in the class (the "dunce"), such a use could hardly have been very successful, as pure punishment is incapable of increasing intelligence. It is likely it was used far more successfully to rein in rebellious or disrespectful students and unite the class against misbehavior by making an example of the offender and forcing them to endure the collective scorn of their classmates for a set period of time. Since no one wanted to be labeled the "dunce" in the class social hierarchy, even for only a short period of time, it served as an effective deterrent to acting out.
In modern pedagogy dunce caps are extremely rare, as most current educational systems consider behavior modification via public humiliation to be both politically incorrect and potentially psychologically traumatizing for schoolchildren, instead advocating systems of "praise in public, punish in private." In some districts, singling out a child for humiliation with the dunce cap (or similar methods) may even be considered criminal harassment or child abuse, exposing the teacher to termination of employment, lawsuits, or prosecution.
A very similar practice on the European continent was a paper headdress known as donkey's ears, as a symbol of 'asinine' stupidity.
—————————
The article's External links are also informative.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-27 03:45 am (UTC)Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-27 04:35 am (UTC)addictionsabilities and proclivities to help people get information that they (seem to) want or need. I sometimes tag such communications "infonexus".I just hope I'm not intruding too much on your space by doing that here. Please PM me if I do.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-27 04:40 am (UTC)That's wonderful.
>> I sometimes tag such communications "infonexus". <<
I've said "Bard-O-Matic" and "information dispensary" to describe myself and my posts in that regard.
"I just hope I'm not intruding too much on your space by doing that here. Please PM me if I do."
No, I love it! I think it's great that I have such a smart audience that people can ask intelligent questions and get thoughtful answers, and will carry on conversation with each other if I'm busy elsewhere. It's awesome. It tells me that all the audience-building stuff I do is actually working.
So thanks for the help.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-27 04:49 am (UTC)Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-27 12:22 am (UTC)That's okay. Dunce cap is kind of archaic now anyway.
>> I'm interested in the author addressing the mentioned cap, <<
I'll see if I can work it in.
>> because it seems to me like a very hurtful punishment, especially for someone like Tony, who tried to impress his father with his inventions.. <<
I figure that's where Tony got it from, because Howard was such a horrible father. Howard never seemed to appreciate Tony's work, even though Tony did stupendous things at a very young age. That indifference left Tony vulnerable to exploitation by people who pretended to value his inventions, and look where that went with Obie. Yeesh. What a disaster.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-26 01:17 am (UTC)Okay. I enjoy audience discussions.
>>Therefore, Bucky should be considered good unless proven otherwise.
I agree with you.. Logically, Tony will come to that conclusion.<<
Well, that's one layer of it, what is called calculated trust. It's more like reliance, which is an action rather than an emotion.
>>It seems very unlikely to me that Tony would just believe that emotionally.<<
What Tony feels for Bucky in their first meeting is affinity. Real trust takes time to build, and they didn't have it then, and even now they're just starting to get there. But they started out with a lot of common ground. They're both cyborgs, with an interest in building and repairing machines. They're smart and smart-mouthed. So there's a sense of kinship there which helps make it possible for them to rely on each other -- to behave as if they are trustworthy -- before they have time to build up the relational transactions that create real trust.
>> He would have to force himself to all that trust towards Bucky, because his brain tells him he should and he is an intelligent man and should do the logical.. but his emotional side will probably have problems with just accepting that. <<
It's a crap sandwich. The lowermost layer is Tony's subconscious need for intimate trusting relationships, of which he still has only a handful. Just above that is the affinity that Tony can feel and recognize, his instincts telling him that Bucky is worth knowing. The middle layers of Tony's conscious emotions are a horrid jumble of daddy issues, fear of abandonment, trust issues, fear of intimacy, social anxiety -- all the stuff that makes Tony choke up and wreck relationships. The uppermost layer of Tony is logic, which says he needs to create a trusting relationship with Bucky right now for practical reasons.
And in a specific moment, any one of those layers could dominate and decide the direction of Tony's outward behavior. The fact that he shifts among them is canon -- look at the different ways he treats Pepper, Rhodey, and JARVIS for instance -- and a key reason why so many people avoid him. You never know which layer of Tony you're going to deal with, so he's unpredictable, and it drives most people nuts.
>> It seems like a major internal conflict (as you portrayed): He forces himself to trust Bucky with his arc reactor, <<
Yes, exactly.
>> but his reactions when Bucky wanted to touch it, shows how uncomfortable he actually is.... <<
That's kind of like a touch-aversion vs. skin-hunger conflict. Tony craves the recognition but can tolerate it only in very small amounts because the arc reactor connects with so much trauma, very little of which he has actually dealt with. He's trying to overcome the twitchiness. Just coming far enough to let someone touch the arc reactor is a huge accomplishment for him. But Tony can only stand it when the contact is static. A moving touch -- especially around the circumference -- still upsets him.
The fact that Bucky froze instantly upon request was a sign of his trustworthiness, though. He didn't tease Tony or keep fondling him. Tony needs opportunities where he can say "stop" and someone will actually respect that.
>> Yeah, that is exactly what Tony is doing and that is what I'm mostly worried about. He gives up so many of his secrets, even the most guarded ones.. <<
That is the part to worry about, yes. Because Tony has a tendency to jump forward and then yank back, creating unpleasant emotional whiplash. Sometimes Bucky does the same thing. They haven't shared everything but it's enough to cause some issues, even though there were sound practical reasons for creating closeness very quickly.
>> To me it seems like a child that gives away all their pocket money to buy something for the first nice person, to secure them as a friend.. it really does not seem healthy to me.. <<
Well, it's a mix of healthy and unhealthy aspects. Wanting to connect with someone is good; skipping the process of learning each other is hazardous. Intimacy is good; boundary-blindness is not. Helping someone is good; hurting yourself in the process is troublesome. Working on your issues is necessary; going too far, too fast is liable to rupture something. The key is to find safe ways of making progress. Tony is pretty clunky at that on his own, but he's got help now, so that makes it better.
>> why does Phil just accept that.. <<
Phil has accepted Tony's choice of overtures because they were effective ways of helping Bucky. But the speed and depth of the intimacy still make Phil worry about backlash -- which has happened more than once.
>>I think Tony should be asked whether he was sure that he wanted to go to such lengths... And somebody should tell him that it is also okay to draw a line somewhere and say no at some point..<<
There will be more discussion of that over time, both for Tony and for Bucky. They need to learn about things they can safely hold private, and also how to double back to the basic trustbuilding steps that usually comprise the beginning of a relationship.
>>Ok, I'm glad you pointed that out, because I didn't realize that..<<
In canon, prior to the Avengers, Tony's friends are basically Pepper and Happy (both employees), Rhodey (military), and JARVIS (artificial intelligence). Other than that he has coworkers, enemies and allies, people he fucks ... but no family and no friends who like him just for himself. It's not an accident that he built himself an AI family so he'd have some company.
>> Well, I just hope, the relationship gets more balanced with time.. <<
It's pretty well balanced now, because they keep adjusting it with each other in response to changes. That's actually part of the problem -- it's like they're at the ends of a see-saw with very little in the middle. What the relationship needs is stability. They need the depth of time and more casual everyday contact to buffer the intense peaks and valleys of dealing with mechanical and interpersonal issues. That just isn't something that can be fixed quickly. They have to keep interacting on a daily basis to build up the relationship with natural connections rather than an emergency splice.
>> 1.) Could we maybe see a really small Tony? As young, or younger than Bruce? I don't know why exactly, but I'd love to see that. <<
I have some possible ideas for that.
>> 2.) That off-handed comment in the last chapter about the ... donkey hat (? I'm not a native speaker.. I dont remember what word you used, cant find it anymore).. <<
Dunce cap, and it's used as a punishment device, as some other folks have explained elsewhere.
>> still makes me queasy.. Can that please be discussed in some way? <<
It is creepy. There's a riff in Iron Man 3 right at the beginning where DUM-E is wearing a dunce cap. Reference:
http://marvel-movies.wikia.com/wiki/Dum-E
That's a horribly cruel thing to do to a robot of very little brain and very much heart. IM3 is not canon for this series, but I have taken a few tiny bits of it. In this case, there's a reference to the dunce cap. I'm not sure if my version of Tony has learned enough by now to realize that it's a bad way to treat someone, or if he'd still do it. I don't know if it'll come up in the storyline or not. Phil clearly finds it disturbing that Tony even has such a thing.
Now Gifted and Experiences Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-09-27 11:57 am (UTC)DUM-E (and perhaps the other bots, and maybe even that J's expansion from JARVIS' name) seems to act as a mirror (I never took psych, correct term would be appreciated) of what Tony's feeling about himself. I wonder if Tony didn't actually name him that, but was castigating himself after finishing the code and got a bot nuzzle and just went with the last thing he recalled saying.
In the admittedly scattered reading (a good rec for a book or set of articles wouldn't be rejected) reading I've done, this is a common 'scar' among the gifted, because plenty of people don't know what gifted is, or that the kids are 'on' in a different way than most children of their age. (And would someone stop with the Mozart as it's been told? He didn't do those things in a bubble. That was genius with specialized scaffolding. And what now would be abusive parenting. No modern child needs that facile 'comparison'. It's like Tony as a baby being compared to Steve.) Tony can break things in pretty flashy ways; some of them he bounces back from quickly, like Edison and the filaments, others he takes more emotionally.
Howard probably spouted variations at himself when he finally found something that in hindsight was 'obvious' but was actually pretty tight. (I like early Howard, much in the way that I like Tony. Which is to say that if I was dealing with them, I'd need a woobie and a secure room afterwards. Howard clearly has had too many sycophants even at that point and then still enjoys pushback. Peggy's behavior shows that he does understand her 'no', despite his continual flirt on. The few interactions that we see with him and Steve make me think of seeing someone finally getting an 'equal' if one that's also from a foreign planet. But you know that sometimes got mean, after the whole 'fondue' because Howard's got a whole world up on Steve. Perhaps they found a level billiards table somewhere or they played more than a couple games of chess. Either would be a good experience of Howard losing fair and square.)
That a genius would make such an object is pretty evocative of the morass that's inside Tony. He's done more in thirty years than most people getting a lifetime achievement had ever done. And if he was well behaved, the press would manufacture scandals, because that's not 'sexy' enough.
Re: Now Gifted and Experiences Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-10-21 03:33 am (UTC)Often they do. (Mirroring actually spans an array of techniques such as copying body language and paraphrasing speech.) Other times they try to nudge Tony in a more constructive direction. You can see a lot of him in them, though, just different things. JARVIS got the amazing competence. DUM-E got the clowning self-condemnation. They both have the heroics.
>> I wonder if Tony didn't actually name him that, but was castigating himself after finishing the code and got a bot nuzzle and just went with the last thing he recalled saying. <<
That's my headcanon for it, yes.
>> In the admittedly scattered reading (a good rec for a book or set of articles wouldn't be rejected) reading I've done, this is a common 'scar' among the gifted, because plenty of people don't know what gifted is, or that the kids are 'on' in a different way than most children of their age. <<
Yes, that's true. One factor is speed: gifted kids learn things faster than other kids do, and progress more rapidly through a skill tree. Another is curiosity; they tend to be self-driven learners and go looking for things to investigate. These things baffle adults, who often respond by stifling gifted children, which is about as destructive as trying to drive a car with the parking brake on.
>> (And would someone stop with the Mozart as it's been told? He didn't do those things in a bubble. That was genius with specialized scaffolding. And what now would be abusive parenting. No modern child needs that facile 'comparison'. It's like Tony as a baby being compared to Steve.) <<
Both talent and context are important. It would've taken Tony longer to stand out if he hadn't gotten the advantages of a wealthy childhood and locally available engineering resources. He might even have pursued a different field. But he still would have been a genius. Bruce got beaten to a pulp and still brought forth wonders.
>> Tony can break things in pretty flashy ways; some of them he bounces back from quickly, like Edison and the filaments, others he takes more emotionally. <<
True. It's interesting; he didn't find testing the repulsors for the suit to be discouraging. But he really felt like a failure because it was Howard who dropped the clue for upgrading the arc reactor. It's like Tony completely lost sight of everything else -- including Howard's failure to develop the element himself -- in light of that.
>> Howard probably spouted variations at himself when he finally found something that in hindsight was 'obvious' but was actually pretty tight. <<
Likely so.
>> (I like early Howard, much in the way that I like Tony. <<
I like early Howard. The extreme character divergence took some work to justify in-series. But that's why I laid the groundwork for it not being entirely Howard's fault what went wrong later. Battle damage can turn a good person with some flaws into a troublesome person with some good accomplishments.
>> Which is to say that if I was dealing with them, I'd need a woobie and a secure room afterwards. <<
I doubt I'd have the patience to handle them in person. Sooner or later Tony would piss me off enough that I'd break him into small smithereens.
>> Howard clearly has had too many sycophants even at that point and then still enjoys pushback. Peggy's behavior shows that he does understand her 'no', despite his continual flirt on. <<
Yes, that's true.
>> The few interactions that we see with him and Steve make me think of seeing someone finally getting an 'equal' if one that's also from a foreign planet. But you know that sometimes got mean, after the whole 'fondue' because Howard's got a whole world up on Steve. <<
It was pretty mixed in the movie, but I still got the impression that Howard treated Steve like a pet. Other people didn't get as much consideration.
>> Perhaps they found a level billiards table somewhere or they played more than a couple games of chess. Either would be a good experience of Howard losing fair and square.) <<
That would've been good, yes.
>> That a genius would make such an object is pretty evocative of the morass that's inside Tony. <<
Not to mention the fucked-up mess of Howard starting with the dunce cap in the first place.
*ponder* It's a failure of imagination in discipline, though. Tony's examples included hitting, verbal abuse, and nagging. You can't really spank a robot, and I don't think Tony would go that way anyhow; he's too protective of his botfamily. So he uses humiliation instead, and that works all too well on DUM-E.
>> He's done more in thirty years than most people getting a lifetime achievement had ever done. <<
True, Tony has an impressive track record.
>> And if he was well behaved, the press would manufacture scandals, because that's not 'sexy' enough. <<
It's a dance as delicate and powerful as a matador manipulating a bull with nothing more than a bit of red silk and some pointy sticks. Even Natalie Rushman fell for it. Tony knows he's going to get hit, so he chooses where to take the blows.
Re: Now Gifted and Experiences Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-10-21 04:51 am (UTC)Tony's of the age where paddles were being phased out and people didn't get just how deep sharp words cut. I found what you set up for how Tony is thinking about what he says to the bots spot on. Tony was punished for being inconvenient, not satisfying unreasonable expectations. He wasn't disciplined, in the sense of being trained to be self-governing, though he may have had modeled that fighting through technical challenges is worthwhile.
I shiver to think of just how much Howard would bait someone that expected to have a captive audience.
I still got the impression that Howard treated Steve like a pet. Other people didn't get as much consideration.
I see Howard having some traits in common with Sherlock Holmes, including dismissing most people because they are too dull to keep up or entertain. Also, given the war, learning new people is opening yourself to pain- Steve at least is something new and better able to bounce back.
I shudder to think what a fictionalized Manhattan Project would have been like with Howard, Egon Spengler's father as a young bachelor, and Richard Feyman.
Faster and deeper, if they aren't been hobbled every step of the way. (Did you see the molecule that a girl modeled in a class and her teacher not knowing if it really could be like that didn't take the easy way and dismiss it, but happened to have a friend that was in that field and sent it on for a little 'review'? Turns out she got somewhere interesting, an intriguing question.)
Sadly, some adults just want power games with patsies and gifted children aren't barreled fish. They bite back when poked.
Re: Now Gifted and Experiences Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-10-22 01:01 am (UTC)Yes, that's true. So is Bruce. I think Clint is somewhere on the trailing edge of that and the leading edge of "let kids do whatever they want."
>> I found what you set up for how Tony is thinking about what he says to the bots spot on. <<
I'm glad that worked for you. I want to explore this more later, fleshing out relationships between Tony's botfamily and the team, and Tony's evolving awareness of communication strategies.
>> Tony was punished for being inconvenient, not satisfying unreasonable expectations. <<
Which really left the door wide open for Obie to manipulate Tony into making things that suited Obie's desires, and later, for Fury to play on Tony's desire to be included by implying that Tony was too much of a bother to put up with ... except for the sake of getting the suit.
>> He wasn't disciplined, in the sense of being trained to be self-governing, though he may have had modeled that fighting through technical challenges is worthwhile. <<
True. I think what self-discipline Tony has is mostly self-learned, a result of spending lots of time left to his own devices and figuring out what works for him. He works through technical challenges on his own because he expects that nobody will help him.
On the other hoof, I figure that Tony found some good teachers over the years. One bit of my headcanon is that he apprenticed with a blacksmith. There just aren't many ways to learn the kind of hand-forging skills Tony showed in Iron Man 1, and I can't imagine Howard teaching him that. So I figure Tony must have gotten a summer job at a historical recreation site or something like that, and picked something deliberately low-class and grungy to piss off Howard -- but it was still a useful skill set and within Tony's range of interest.
>> I shiver to think of just how much Howard would bait someone that expected to have a captive audience. <<
I figure that's where Tony learned to bullseye Steve's most vulnerable points within moments of meeting him. And Steve had learned from bullies how to hit back verbally. So they both made critical hits.
>> I see Howard having some traits in common with Sherlock Holmes, including dismissing most people because they are too dull to keep up or entertain. <<
I agree.
Honestly, that's a key reason why I have few friends in meatspace. It's uncomfortable and boring for me to slow down to average level, if I can do it at all; and it's confusing and scary for average people to try keeping up with me. So I tend to gravitate toward people at my own mental level -- who are few and far between, scattered widely around the world.
>> Also, given the war, learning new people is opening yourself to pain- Steve at least is something new and better able to bounce back. <<
Yes, that's true. I think Howard let himself get attached to Steve because he believed it was safe, given Steve's super-healing. So Howard was woefully unprepared for that loss, which played into his obsession with finding Steve.
>> I shudder to think what a fictionalized Manhattan Project would have been like with Howard, Egon Spengler's father as a young bachelor, and Richard Feyman. <<
My headcanon is that Howard would've been the one to light a cigarette with an atomic bomb. That's exactly the kind of batshit crazy thing he'd do.
I think Howard's involvement in that is part of why the Battle of New York hit Tony so hard: because it was a nuclear bomb that the World Security Council launched at New York and Tony redirected at the Chitauri.
>> Faster and deeper, if they aren't been hobbled every step of the way. <<
That's also true.
>> (Did you see the molecule that a girl modeled in a class and her teacher not knowing if it really could be like that didn't take the easy way and dismiss it, but happened to have a friend that was in that field and sent it on for a little 'review'? Turns out she got somewhere interesting, an intriguing question.) <<
Very cool.
I've got a poem inspired by the oppression of gifted kids, "The Small and the Swift."
>> Sadly, some adults just want power games with patsies and gifted children aren't barreled fish. They bite back when poked. <<
Too true. Do not feed fingers to the piranha.
Re: Now Gifted and Experiences Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-10-22 04:31 am (UTC)There are some fics that start out with Steve treating Dum-e like a labrador.
Safe might be a stretch, but merely risky as opposed to doomed. And Howard was all about risky, flying a private plane into Switzerland despite being in deep on Two Top Secret Projects.
All three would have been doing one batshit thing after another, they'd just be varying sorts of crazed. Dr. Spengler would have been focused, dry and possibly straying into 'near magic' while Howard and Feyman would have been boozing and at least on Howard's part womanizing. (it's been a long time since I've read Genius) More than one wit would have argued they should just ship them to the theatre and that would level everything by their fits.
Well, it's the ultimate collateral damage. And in one sense it was the solution, just not in NYC but through the portal.
Re: Now Gifted and Experiences Re: thoughts
Date: 2013-10-22 05:30 am (UTC)Yes, that's true.
>> I don't know much of comic canon Hawkeye, though MCU seems not to drawn on that much, <<
I've only seen fragments. I have, however, made some use of online resources to find canonical motifs to flesh out the frankly trivial movie content.
>> but fandom has some great work with Clint <<
I agree.
>> (there's one where Clint had been working with Phil to improve his reading skills and he's supposed to accomplish something in close quarters but Bruce was the one that wrote it out and assumed some concepts that if you never got past fifth grade math...) <<
I touched on something similar with Steve, where his current ability exceeded his previous educational opportunities, so Betty offered to brush up his math.
I figure that between Clint's crappy family life and running away to join the circus, he didn't get a full education. He doesn't seem inclined to do a lot of recreational reading, and his cultural knowledge has some gaps. But he's sensitive about seeming dumb, so he tries to fill the gaps when he can. Phil would have helped a lot once Clint joined SHIELD, coaxing him to learn new skills. Although Clint thinks of himself as slow, he's really not. You can't count on him not knowing something.
>> There are some fics that start out with Steve treating Dum-e like a labrador. <<
Or a toddler, yes, that's a motif I enjoy. Steve is a very gentle and compassionate person at heart.
>> Safe might be a stretch, but merely risky as opposed to doomed. <<
That's true. However, people can overestimate safety levels when they're desperate.
>> And Howard was all about risky, flying a private plane into Switzerland despite being in deep on Two Top Secret Projects. <<
Ah, but there's a world of difference between physical risks and emotional risks. Soldiers take physical risks all the time, and some of them don't mind or actively enjoy the thrill. But they're much more protective of their emotional vulnerability; they have to be, to stay functional in a battlefield.
>> All three would have been doing one batshit thing after another, they'd just be varying sorts of crazed. <<
I agree.
>> Dr. Spengler would have been focused, dry and possibly straying into 'near magic' while Howard and Feyman would have been boozing and at least on Howard's part womanizing. (it's been a long time since I've read Genius) <<
That sounds about right, though I wonder if Howard shared Tony's unwitting technomancy. I suspect so, given the partnership with Dr. Erskine.
>> More than one wit would have argued they should just ship them to the theatre and that would level everything by their fits. <<
Grenade assets, gotta love 'em. Pull the pin, throw them at the enemy, and run for cover.
>> Well, it's the ultimate collateral damage. And in one sense it was the solution, just not in NYC but through the portal. <<
True.
Re: thoughts
Date: 2014-04-02 03:38 am (UTC)I learn so much!
Re: thoughts
Date: 2014-04-02 03:53 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-23 10:09 pm (UTC)Okay...
Date: 2013-09-26 03:00 am (UTC)Tony does want to be liked. He engages in a great deal of attention-seeking behavior. He then blows off negative reactions and collects positive ones. But most of that is very shallow. His craving for friendship is much deeper, more complicated, and until very recently less fulfilled. It leaves Tony vulnerable in ways that he does not realize because he thinks of himself as having terrific social armor. The problem is that it only works against people he doesn't care about.
>> Phil had some concerns in the last story, but nothing since. Hopefully this will be addressed in future chapters. <<
It does come up later in this story, yes.
>> I really think this is my main issue right now, that Tony seems to think he needs to give his all to get Bucky to like him (and keep his new family intact) and no one has tried to reassure him or even find out why he has been so giving and open (with his very well known trust issues). <<
Phil did touch on this a little, in the discussion about whether to invite Bucky to game night. When it became clear that Steve really wanted to include Bucky, but Clint and Tony had reservations, Phil reminded them that they weren't obligated to vote yes and should consider their own needs.
Tony's perspective starts with a reasonable premise -- wanting a healthy group dynamic. His negative past experiences and patchy social skills combine to skew that into a less healthy direction.
>> To even hint that in the future Bucky might have access to Jarvis (so soon after the blowup the night before) is a little scary to me. <<
Mentioning it aloud so early was tacky of Tony, but tact is not his strong suit. He's kind of had a little mental file folder going, Possible Tech Support for JARVIS, and was just reading out of there. He's been considering Phil for months, and Bucky less long still seriously. But for Bucky it's not a short-term possibility, which is part of why the recent incident made Tony pop the question to Phil.
>> What else would Tony be willing to do to keep his new family without someone stepping in to help him set healthy boundaries. <<
Considering that Tony has nearly no brakes, I shudder to think. He'll cut himself to the bone trying to keep people he loves from leaving him. Look at Iron Man 3 -- which I think was a hatchet job of characterization, but Tony destroying all the Iron Man suits to please Pepper who hates Iron Man is on the same spectrum of Tony hurting himself for the sake of other people. I just couldn't abide counting that as canon; it went too far for my taste.
Re: Okay...
Date: 2014-04-02 03:47 am (UTC)2) chucking the ARC REACTOR over the cliff at Malibu.
Both grand Hollywood gestures but in my headcanon Tony is WAY more protective of his tech than that. It's foolish to scatter proprietary tech all over the place. It'd be like, oh, Apple publishing large swathes of code to the open source community.
Gah! *looking squint-eyed at Hollywood*
Re: Okay...
Date: 2014-04-02 07:15 am (UTC)Canon sets him up as protective. The only way it makes sense is that Pepper fucked him up so much, he is willing to harm himself in attempt to please her.
Uckies, uckies, uckies.
>> It's foolish to scatter proprietary tech all over the place. It'd be like, oh, Apple publishing large swathes of code to the open source community. <<
Yes, that's irresponsible -- and per canon, utterly out of character. Tony is intensely concerned about keeping his tech out of the wrong hands, for cause.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-24 01:38 am (UTC)I wonder if anyone here has seen any studies on how people relate to fictional characters as opposed to real people. Some may say that "opposites attract" in real life, but I've seen quite a few studies that say that people are much more likely to be attracted to similar personalities. Is there any sort of clear pattern in our relationship to fictional characters, or do all the 'rules' about relationships get thrown out the window?
I also wonder about the phenomenon of 'favorite characters'. I have to admit that I usually gravitate towards one character in particular in most of the stories I've read, watched, or heard. On the other hand, I have a few friends who are completely baffled by this concept that one character would always rise above the rest to become a favorite. I wonder what this says about our personalities. Honestly, I wish I were more like my friends and was able to be equally invested in everyone!
I really appreciate how your story and your dialog with readers brings up all sort of interesting questions for me. Thanks!
-Annetta
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-25 04:38 am (UTC)This has always interested me as well. I like to study popular characters because then it helps me generate ones likely to hook my readers.
One that I've noticed? People love sympathetic villains, or characters who used to be villains. Redemption is hooky. One of my popular series, One God's Story of Mid-Life Crisis, is about the God of Evil abandoning his former sphere of influence to become the God of Drunks, because evil is boring and unfulfilling.
>> If it were simply a matter of personal background, I think I would be most attached to Tony because of our shared history of family alcoholism. <<
Some people are drawn to characters who have a lot in common with them. Some are drawn to characters who are opposites. Many of us like both. I've had several readers latch onto Tony in this series because they like how I'm handling him as an adult child of alcoholics who has a drinking problem himself.
>> However, I actually feel the most attached to Bucky even though I don't see a lot of commonalities between us [which, as a side note, makes me want to defend him no matter how irrational that desire may be :) ]. <<
That's okay too.
For me, Bruce is the one who makes me want to hold him and pet him and call him George. It's the submissive body language from the Avengers movie that just flips my protection mode on high. That was actually the inspiration for a whole separate series, Schrodinger's Hulk, beginning with "Safe Keeping."
>> I wonder if anyone here has seen any studies on how people relate to fictional characters as opposed to real people. <<
I have not seen actual studies, and would be interested in that.
I know that my own readers like to request characters who resemble them, or people they know, with regard to underrepresented traits. This helps raise the diversity of my character casts. But they like characters who are totally different from them too -- Tim the Tentacle Monster is a favorite, and he's an alien with a very quirky personality.
>> Some may say that "opposites attract" in real life, but I've seen quite a few studies that say that people are much more likely to be attracted to similar personalities. <<
I have observed both of these effects.
>> Is there any sort of clear pattern in our relationship to fictional characters, or do all the 'rules' about relationships get thrown out the window? <<
Some things I've noticed ...
* People who are unsatisfied with the amount and/or quality of entertainment featuring some trait(s) of theirs are likely to gravitate towards characters that portray said trait well.
* Major turn-ons and turn-offs tend to remain consistent. A feminist is unlikely to enjoy female characters written as victims, and more likely to favor those with agency.
* More complex and well-crafted characters tend to draw a larger following. However, some readers love bit characters.
>> I also wonder about the phenomenon of 'favorite characters'. I have to admit that I usually gravitate towards one character in particular in most of the stories I've read, watched, or heard. On the other hand, I have a few friends who are completely baffled by this concept that one character would always rise above the rest to become a favorite. <<
For me it varies. I usually like some characters more than others if there's an ensemble cast, but not often just a single favorite. I like most of the Firefly crew; I just favor Kaylee because I gravitate to redheads. I like John Watson and Sherlock Holmes almost equally, though in different ways.
>> I wonder what this says about our personalities. Honestly, I wish I were more like my friends and was able to be equally invested in everyone! <<
It probably says different things about different people.
>> I really appreciate how your story and your dialog with readers brings up all sort of interesting questions for me. Thanks! <<
You're welcome! I love when that happens. I enjoy discussing these things because it helps me understand what people want, what activates the pleasure circuit while reading, so that I can use that in my original writing.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-25 05:36 am (UTC)The Bucky thing kind of threw me, and I don't know why. It just seemed to come out of nowhere.
Helga
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-25 05:49 am (UTC)That's okay. It's a pretty intense scene.
>> The Bucky thing kind of threw me, and I don't know why. It just seemed to come out of nowhere. <<
I recommend reading the comments; there's a lot of insightful discussion of this in there. It is not without precedent, because Bucky has shown a keen interest in JARVIS and other Starktech. But it's also not without complications because of the push-pull relationship between Tony and Bucky.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-02-03 04:09 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-02-03 07:14 pm (UTC)Sometimes the installments are really packed.
>> It's interesting to see Tony and JARVIS work in tandem here: getting Phil to agree to respond to check in and to become trained to help take care of JARVIS is Tony is incapacitated. <<
Exactly. They work together like right and left hands who actually know what the other is doing. They run Iron Man together. Tony and JARVIS are used to tagteaming everything.
>> That last one speaks to their level of trust in Phil, especially considering the past betrayals you pointed out. <<
The interesting thing for me is that the mixed relationship between Tony and Phil is canon. Sometimes Tony gives Phil some pretty amazing concessions of trust, despite untrustworthy things that Phil has done. We can either say that's Tony being a poor judge of character, or that Tony sees something in Phil that he admires. I think Tony finds Phil's calm nature soothing.
>> This is really good! <<
Thank you!