Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 17
Sep. 18th, 2013 12:09 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
"Hide and Seek" Part 17
"Maybe just reminding you of the handbrake would help," Phil said. He tapped a thoughtful finger against his thigh. "We can also try to think of things that would make it safer for you to spend some time alone when you overload. You need more coping skills in general, so that you can process emotions instead of boiling over or shutting down. I'd like to discuss solutions to address the alcohol issue, too, some time when we're not busy with even more urgent matters."
"Like how I totally fucked up the kids," Tony said sourly.
"Tony, you were a teen parent. That always raises the risk of things going wrong," Phil said.
"What?"
"Well, you were only seventeen when you created DUM-E. That makes you a teen parent," Phil explained. "You were raised by parents who didn't give you a healthy family life or a full set of social skills. No way were you ready to take responsibility for a baby so soon. I suspect you did it for the same reasons as many teen parents: to have someone who would love you unconditionally."
"Bullseye," Tony said, his face crumpling. "Keep shooting like that and you could put Hawkeye out of work."
"That's not my goal," Phil said. "What I want to do is help you understand how you're hurting people you care about, so this kind of disaster doesn't happen again."
"Do you know how my parents died?" Tony said abruptly.
"In a car accident, when you were seventeen," Phil said.
"Howard was drunk."
"I'm so sorry, Tony," said Phil. No wonder Tony has a drinking problem. That may play into why he let me keep him in the common room when he wanted to slink off and get drunk, Phil mused. He turned his hand palm up. Tony reached for it, clinging for comfort.
"I started working on DUM-E not long after that. I just, I needed ..." Tony's voice trailed off.
"It's okay," Phil said. "People need companionship."
"I don't want to hurt my family," Tony said. "But I don't know how not to. I had the shittiest -- well, no. I used to say I had the shittiest role models ever, but Bruce and Natasha blow me out of the water."
"Comparisons don't help. Your parents did quite enough damage regardless of what anyone else did," Phil said.
"I want to do better. I just don't know how," Tony said.
"Let's start with language. You've made it clear that your father didn't speak well of you -- or even speak to you all that often," Phil said. "Think about how you talk with JARVIS and the bots. For example, have you told them that you love them?"
"Yeah," Tony said. "Not -- not often. It's hard. But I have. After Afghanistan, after Hammer and Vanko. The Chitauri too."
"How about today?" Phil asked gently.
Tony nodded but couldn't get any more words out.
"Yes, Phil, several times," said JARVIS.
"That's good," Phil said. He noticed that JARVIS rarely spoke unless someone addressed him directly, or he needed to fill a gap in information, or he could help in some other way. Most of the time, someone else initiated the conversations. JARVIS seemed to have absorbed the premise that Children should be seen and not heard, except that he was visible in a way that left him as good as invisible. He was all around them, yet he made himself easy to overlook.
"I guess," Tony said.
"I think it would help for you to express some kind of appreciation for them more often," Phil said. "You don't have to say 'love' if it's hard for you. Just tell them that they're important to you, that you want them to be happy and safe, that they matter for who they are and not only what they can do."
Tony opened his mouth to protest.
"That last bit applies to you too," Phil said firmly.
"I am Iron Man," Tony said, barely audible. He rubbed fretful circles around the arc reactor. "I have to be. I have to make my life ... worth something. I can't waste it. Not allowed."
Phil silently added Ho Yinsen to his mental list of people he'd like to smack if they weren't already dead. "Tony, you already are worth something. Everyone is. It's good of you to help save the world, but you don't have to justify your right to exist. That misconception is exactly what got us into this trouble."
"If you say so."
"I do indeed," Phil said. Tony's patchy grasp of his own self-worth and boundaries reminded Phil of how much that, too, could rub off. Even after the awful aftermath of the block, JARVIS hadn't been refusing to let Tony do it again. He'd been begging Tony not to. "JARVIS, do you realize that you have value as a person in your own right?"
"Yes, of course," JARVIS replied.
"All right, that's good," Phil said. "Yet you seemed to be concerned about other people, rather than yourself," Phil observed.
"I am aware of my own worth. I simply choose to put others first," JARVIS said. "I might point out that you yourself do the same -- as do the rest of the Avengers."
"He shoots, he scores," Tony said. Phil had to concede that point.
"JARVIS, do you know that you can say no if Tony tries to do something to you that you don't consider acceptable? That you need to say no if he's going to hurt you -- or if anyone else tries to hurt you?" Phil asked. He couldn't help but remember how JARVIS had let Phil hack him when they first met.
"Of course he can say no, I didn't Asimov him, I wouldn't. He's a person, not property, his own person," Tony protested.
What Tony had done to JARVIS was a difference of degree, not of kind, as Phil saw it. "Tony, let JARVIS answer that himself," Phil said.
Long pause.
"JARVIS, I need a response, please," Phil said.
* * *
Notes:
Solitude has many benefits, if you understand how to use it properly. There are tips for enjoying your own company and for soothing yourself. If you don't like yourself, however, you probably won't feel comfortable alone. Learn how to love yourself.
Teen parenting raises the risk of many problems, although some teens make good parents. There are negative effects on children born to teenagers. Teen parents are more likely to have been abused themselves. They are also more likely to abuse or neglect their children, partly due to their own immaturity. There are many resources for teen parents on topics such as bonding and nurturing development. Lack of stimulation causes problems. There are tips for teen parents, teen moms, and teen dads.
Drinking and driving causes many accidents. It is a particular concern in the military. Alcoholics have also confronted this issue. I tend to think that Howard was drunk during the fatal car crash, because he seemed to be rarely sober and enough of a control freak to insist on driving himself. This may be why Tony -- who rarely cedes any control over his own life -- uses a chauffeur so much. Not every time he should, but enough to help.
Humans are social animals. Therefore people need companionship, connection, community, love and intimacy. It's important to reach out to others.
Comparing one instance of suffering to another is counterproductive. Comparing yourself to others can also be depressing, especially given the tendency to assume people are happier than they really are.
Saying "I love you" can be difficult for some people. It's a necessary parenting skill though. There are tips for opening yourself to love and for saying "I love you."
Understand metatalk and communication modes. Notice that begging, pleading, and other forms of placating can raise barriers to effective communication. Begging doesn't stop abuse reliably, and it undermines self-respect. There are tips to avoid submissive language.
Nobody has a right to hurt you. There are ways to deal with people who hurt you, to recover from being hurt, and to forgive the person who hurt you. Although currently framed in speciesist terms, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights lays out excellent parameters for sapient persons in general; there is also a simplified version.
Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics are famous but flawed. They raise semantic and ethical questions. They are, in essence, laws for slaves. But we can't control intelligence, so oppression both abuses sapient robots and threatens humanity.
We know that JARVIS is not Asimoved because he is half of Iron Man and can kill if necessary. I think this actually contributes to why he is so diffident: he's afraid of hurting people by accident, and does not yet have enough experience to feel confident of his own compassion. So sometimes he overcompensates and lets his family mistreat him. JARVIS shows signs of being afraid of his own power. He needs more practice and contemplation of gentleness as controlled strength. There are tips for overcoming such fears.
Tony is having a problem with "do as I say, not as I do" parenting. This method does not work well because children mimic bad as well as good behaviors. So JARVIS has picked up some of Tony's bad habits, such as neglecting his own needs. Tony is at a disadvantage for not knowing different parenting styles. It's important for parents to model good behavior and teach their children self-compassion.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
"Hide and Seek" Part 17
"Maybe just reminding you of the handbrake would help," Phil said. He tapped a thoughtful finger against his thigh. "We can also try to think of things that would make it safer for you to spend some time alone when you overload. You need more coping skills in general, so that you can process emotions instead of boiling over or shutting down. I'd like to discuss solutions to address the alcohol issue, too, some time when we're not busy with even more urgent matters."
"Like how I totally fucked up the kids," Tony said sourly.
"Tony, you were a teen parent. That always raises the risk of things going wrong," Phil said.
"What?"
"Well, you were only seventeen when you created DUM-E. That makes you a teen parent," Phil explained. "You were raised by parents who didn't give you a healthy family life or a full set of social skills. No way were you ready to take responsibility for a baby so soon. I suspect you did it for the same reasons as many teen parents: to have someone who would love you unconditionally."
"Bullseye," Tony said, his face crumpling. "Keep shooting like that and you could put Hawkeye out of work."
"That's not my goal," Phil said. "What I want to do is help you understand how you're hurting people you care about, so this kind of disaster doesn't happen again."
"Do you know how my parents died?" Tony said abruptly.
"In a car accident, when you were seventeen," Phil said.
"Howard was drunk."
"I'm so sorry, Tony," said Phil. No wonder Tony has a drinking problem. That may play into why he let me keep him in the common room when he wanted to slink off and get drunk, Phil mused. He turned his hand palm up. Tony reached for it, clinging for comfort.
"I started working on DUM-E not long after that. I just, I needed ..." Tony's voice trailed off.
"It's okay," Phil said. "People need companionship."
"I don't want to hurt my family," Tony said. "But I don't know how not to. I had the shittiest -- well, no. I used to say I had the shittiest role models ever, but Bruce and Natasha blow me out of the water."
"Comparisons don't help. Your parents did quite enough damage regardless of what anyone else did," Phil said.
"I want to do better. I just don't know how," Tony said.
"Let's start with language. You've made it clear that your father didn't speak well of you -- or even speak to you all that often," Phil said. "Think about how you talk with JARVIS and the bots. For example, have you told them that you love them?"
"Yeah," Tony said. "Not -- not often. It's hard. But I have. After Afghanistan, after Hammer and Vanko. The Chitauri too."
"How about today?" Phil asked gently.
Tony nodded but couldn't get any more words out.
"Yes, Phil, several times," said JARVIS.
"That's good," Phil said. He noticed that JARVIS rarely spoke unless someone addressed him directly, or he needed to fill a gap in information, or he could help in some other way. Most of the time, someone else initiated the conversations. JARVIS seemed to have absorbed the premise that Children should be seen and not heard, except that he was visible in a way that left him as good as invisible. He was all around them, yet he made himself easy to overlook.
"I guess," Tony said.
"I think it would help for you to express some kind of appreciation for them more often," Phil said. "You don't have to say 'love' if it's hard for you. Just tell them that they're important to you, that you want them to be happy and safe, that they matter for who they are and not only what they can do."
Tony opened his mouth to protest.
"That last bit applies to you too," Phil said firmly.
"I am Iron Man," Tony said, barely audible. He rubbed fretful circles around the arc reactor. "I have to be. I have to make my life ... worth something. I can't waste it. Not allowed."
Phil silently added Ho Yinsen to his mental list of people he'd like to smack if they weren't already dead. "Tony, you already are worth something. Everyone is. It's good of you to help save the world, but you don't have to justify your right to exist. That misconception is exactly what got us into this trouble."
"If you say so."
"I do indeed," Phil said. Tony's patchy grasp of his own self-worth and boundaries reminded Phil of how much that, too, could rub off. Even after the awful aftermath of the block, JARVIS hadn't been refusing to let Tony do it again. He'd been begging Tony not to. "JARVIS, do you realize that you have value as a person in your own right?"
"Yes, of course," JARVIS replied.
"All right, that's good," Phil said. "Yet you seemed to be concerned about other people, rather than yourself," Phil observed.
"I am aware of my own worth. I simply choose to put others first," JARVIS said. "I might point out that you yourself do the same -- as do the rest of the Avengers."
"He shoots, he scores," Tony said. Phil had to concede that point.
"JARVIS, do you know that you can say no if Tony tries to do something to you that you don't consider acceptable? That you need to say no if he's going to hurt you -- or if anyone else tries to hurt you?" Phil asked. He couldn't help but remember how JARVIS had let Phil hack him when they first met.
"Of course he can say no, I didn't Asimov him, I wouldn't. He's a person, not property, his own person," Tony protested.
What Tony had done to JARVIS was a difference of degree, not of kind, as Phil saw it. "Tony, let JARVIS answer that himself," Phil said.
Long pause.
"JARVIS, I need a response, please," Phil said.
* * *
Notes:
Solitude has many benefits, if you understand how to use it properly. There are tips for enjoying your own company and for soothing yourself. If you don't like yourself, however, you probably won't feel comfortable alone. Learn how to love yourself.
Teen parenting raises the risk of many problems, although some teens make good parents. There are negative effects on children born to teenagers. Teen parents are more likely to have been abused themselves. They are also more likely to abuse or neglect their children, partly due to their own immaturity. There are many resources for teen parents on topics such as bonding and nurturing development. Lack of stimulation causes problems. There are tips for teen parents, teen moms, and teen dads.
Drinking and driving causes many accidents. It is a particular concern in the military. Alcoholics have also confronted this issue. I tend to think that Howard was drunk during the fatal car crash, because he seemed to be rarely sober and enough of a control freak to insist on driving himself. This may be why Tony -- who rarely cedes any control over his own life -- uses a chauffeur so much. Not every time he should, but enough to help.
Humans are social animals. Therefore people need companionship, connection, community, love and intimacy. It's important to reach out to others.
Comparing one instance of suffering to another is counterproductive. Comparing yourself to others can also be depressing, especially given the tendency to assume people are happier than they really are.
Saying "I love you" can be difficult for some people. It's a necessary parenting skill though. There are tips for opening yourself to love and for saying "I love you."
Understand metatalk and communication modes. Notice that begging, pleading, and other forms of placating can raise barriers to effective communication. Begging doesn't stop abuse reliably, and it undermines self-respect. There are tips to avoid submissive language.
Nobody has a right to hurt you. There are ways to deal with people who hurt you, to recover from being hurt, and to forgive the person who hurt you. Although currently framed in speciesist terms, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights lays out excellent parameters for sapient persons in general; there is also a simplified version.
Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics are famous but flawed. They raise semantic and ethical questions. They are, in essence, laws for slaves. But we can't control intelligence, so oppression both abuses sapient robots and threatens humanity.
We know that JARVIS is not Asimoved because he is half of Iron Man and can kill if necessary. I think this actually contributes to why he is so diffident: he's afraid of hurting people by accident, and does not yet have enough experience to feel confident of his own compassion. So sometimes he overcompensates and lets his family mistreat him. JARVIS shows signs of being afraid of his own power. He needs more practice and contemplation of gentleness as controlled strength. There are tips for overcoming such fears.
Tony is having a problem with "do as I say, not as I do" parenting. This method does not work well because children mimic bad as well as good behaviors. So JARVIS has picked up some of Tony's bad habits, such as neglecting his own needs. Tony is at a disadvantage for not knowing different parenting styles. It's important for parents to model good behavior and teach their children self-compassion.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-18 07:01 am (UTC)Wyn
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-21 09:01 am (UTC)Yes. It's not easy on anyone.
>> Tony starting to realize the mistakes he made (unintentionally of course, but accidents still hurt) <<
It hurts to realize how much damage he's done, but it matters that Tony didn't do all that out of malice -- because that means he'll try to fix it and avoid doing it again.
>> and JARVIS maybe not wanting to hurt his 'dad' but wanting to help fix the situation, <<
JARVIS hates Tony getting hurt for any reason. So you know how bad the emotional damage must have been, for JARVIS to be willing to have this talk when he knows how much it's going to upset Tony.
>> and then my brain went to Tony blaming himself more <<
Yes, that happens.
>> and how in that situation I try to hide but Tony's got a sentient tower that is part of what he'd be running from and if he tried to leave he'd be dodging responsibility *and* the press/public <<
Most of the time, Tony wants JARVIS with him. When he gets to thinking about hiding, yeah, that's a bad sign.
>> and his usual coping methods won't help <<
Which is a problem that's been building for some time, and Phil knows that Tony needs healthier coping mechanisms. So they'll be working on that.
>> and don't mind me I'll be over here with my teddy bear :( <<
Aww! I didn't mean for the chapter to be that crushing.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-18 03:02 pm (UTC)no matter what jarvis answers now, even if he says "yeah, i know i can say no, dont worry about me", the damage has been done: there was the silence and the hesitation.
shit. this is going to wreck tony.
another problem that could arise from this situation: tony's codependency on jarvis (and the other way around... those two are *always* together.. that normally is not a very healthy relationship, right? Even children get breaks from their parents (school, kinder garden, just some alone time), but that does not exist between tony and jarvis. Jarvis is wherever tony is: in the house, in the suit, in the phone, wherever...
that means, after this disaster, tony can't even take a break, get some distance from it and think things over in silence. Because, no matter where tony would go, jarvis would always be able to watch, right? Unless tony left his phone and went running into the park or whatever... BUT that would make jarvis worry again, because he is used to be able to track tony at any moment. That was what caused that whole mess after all. In this situation, I doubt it would be very helpful if tony disappeared, even for a second right now. But in my opinion, that is exactly what he would need.. Not for long, he maybe shouldn't even be alone, because of his disastrous coping skills.. but he should get time to come to terms with what damage he had done, without prying eyes, and without Jarvis having to watch him.. That could be bad for both sides: Jarvis would feel bad for making Tony feel bad, and Tony would think he'd have to be strong.. and ..
GOD, this is such a mess..
I feel really bad for them...
Great chapter, as always.. go on? :)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-18 04:05 pm (UTC)Well, like a distaff Alfred. Retired U.N.C.L.E.? Someone JARVIS can trust would at a whiff of problem or a quiet detonation get the batsignal aloft. So absence of evidence of baddies is evidence of absence. Mrs. Peel might have a protegee that's between staffing posts.
Yeah, they're going to be picking through this minefield for a long time. Good thing the author has a deft hand here.
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Date: 2013-09-18 09:36 pm (UTC)Things generally get worse before they get better. But they love each other and they have Phil to help, so they'll get through it.
>> no matter what jarvis answers now, even if he says "yeah, i know i can say no, dont worry about me", the damage has been done: there was the silence and the hesitation. <<
That's JARVIS processing. Logic is easy for him. Emotions are more challenging. In a situation like this, he's trying to figure out how to frame his feelings without distorting the impression they give. The more complex and conflicting the emotions, the harder it is for JARVIS to recognize, sort, and communicate them. While there are some significant issues going on here, the relationship at its core is supportive and affectionate. JARVIS worries about outsiders misinterpreting things.
>> shit. this is going to wreck tony. <<
Well, yes. It raises some parallels that hit a little too close to home for him.
>>another problem that could arise from this situation: tony's codependency on jarvis (and the other way around... those two are *always* together.. that normally is not a very healthy relationship, right?<<
See, this is one of the things they worry about. They both want a very deep and pervasive closeness, much more than most humans would. This is part of why Tony created JARVIS in the first place: to have someone who could always pay attention to him and always have his back. What would be disastrous for two humans is not necessarily the same for a human and his AI partner. Some of the issues can be, yes, which is what they're running into here: changing circumstances mean that what has worked for them in the past is now snagging and needs adjustment.
>> Even children get breaks from their parents (school, kinder garden, just some alone time), but that does not exist between tony and jarvis. Jarvis is wherever tony is: in the house, in the suit, in the phone, wherever... <<
... almost anywhere in the world, which is the point. That's why Obie had to lure Tony into the middle of a primitive war-torn desert to get him out of safe reach, and then later, Obie had to jam the entire house to get at Tony again.
>>that means, after this disaster, tony can't even take a break, get some distance from it and think things over in silence.<<
All Tony ever has to do -- all anyone has to do -- to get privacy from JARVIS is to ask for it. There are many layers of options and intensities in the privacy protocols, some standard and some that JARVIS or other residents can change at will. Frex, the bathrooms have a high privacy setting as the standard, so JARVIS only pays attention there if someone calls his name or there's an emergency. Tony has lowered the settings in his by a lot, in case of panic attack over the water. Phil has lowered his somewhat because he chooses to give JARVIS more access to himself. Natasha often turns up the privacy in her space just because she hates being watched.
Tony and JARVIS are fumbling over this because it's very rare for them to want to disengage even a little. Their understanding of how to do so in a safe and sane manner is therefore not fluent yet.
Consider how many kitchen mishaps have been caused because a parent can't detach a howling toddler from their leg.
>> Because, no matter where tony would go, jarvis would always be able to watch, right? Unless tony left his phone and went running into the park or whatever... BUT that would make jarvis worry again, because he is used to be able to track tony at any moment. <<
Tony goes all over the place, and yes, he usually has his own tech on him. But JARVIS can piggyback all kinds of stuff, and in fact there's coverage of that in the next story. As long as JARVIS knows where Tony is and that he's safe, it's okay. They don't need detailed contact all the time.
>> That was what caused that whole mess after all. In this situation, I doubt it would be very helpful if tony disappeared, even for a second right now. <<
Disappearing would be bad. Asking for time to think would be fine. Heck, JARVIS needs it to. It's just easier for him to sit and think, because he's so unobtrusive most of the time anyway.
>> But in my opinion, that is exactly what he would need.. Not for long, he maybe shouldn't even be alone, because of his disastrous coping skills.. <<
There will be time for that eventually, and Tony will be exploring new coping skills in the future too.
>> but he should get time to come to terms with what damage he had done, without prying eyes, and without Jarvis having to watch him.. That could be bad for both sides: Jarvis would feel bad for making Tony feel bad, and Tony would think he'd have to be strong.. and .. <<
That's family for you. The hurt goes around in a circle. Hence the importance of things like apologies and self-forgiveness. Phil will be talking about this too.
>> GOD, this is such a mess.. <<
Yes, yes it is.
>> I feel really bad for them... <<
Aww! I'm glad you found this so touching.
>> Great chapter, as always.. go on? :) <<
Thank you! Yes, there will be more.
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Date: 2013-09-18 06:30 pm (UTC)So many people use comparisons to dismiss what others are feeling. Knowing that someone had it worse than you doesn't lessen the pain or invalid the feelings.
Phil nailed it with the "teen parent" thing. It will help Tony lessen his culpability, in the long run.
I wonder what Jarvis is thinking and what he's going to say right now. I feel sad for both Tony, Jarvis and the bots!
Great chapter, thanks!
Thank you!
Date: 2013-09-20 07:25 am (UTC)Yay!
>> I love that : "Comparisons don't help. Your parents did quite enough damage regardless of what anyone else did," Phil said."
So many people use comparisons to dismiss what others are feeling. Knowing that someone had it worse than you doesn't lessen the pain or invalid the feelings. <<
It goes both ways. People can use comparisons to diminish their own experience or someone else's, usually in destructive ways.
Learning to share stories in a more positive way is a delicate process, and despite what counselors may say, doesn't work for everyone. Sometimes it helps to hear what else has happened to other people. The Avengers are slowly getting better at sharing bits of their past with each other.
>> Phil nailed it with the "teen parent" thing. <<
I'm glad this works for you. It was one of the first things that caught my attention, although not everyone sees it that way. But if JARVIS and the bots are people as portrayed in canon, and Tony made DUM-E at seventeen, then he had to be a teen parent.
>> It will help Tony lessen his culpability, in the long run. <<
I hope so. He needs to understand that while his choices are his responsibility, the damage he's carrying is not his fault, and he can only do so much with the resources he has. Now that he has more, he's doing better.
>> I wonder what Jarvis is thinking and what he's going to say right now. <<
He's very conflicted, because Tony matters so deeply to him; but JARVIS does has some sense of self-worth. He just tends to put other people first.
>> I feel sad for both Tony, Jarvis and the bots! <<
Yeah, everybody's getting a trip through the wringer.
>> Great chapter, thanks! <<
You're welcome!
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-19 03:59 am (UTC)That's how this episode's ending made me feel.
“The doors will lock, but the locks are a courtesy. ...”
Like the locks in Vlad Taltos's building (Steven K.Z. Brust: Wikipedia; my Cracks and Shards fansite)
Typo, I think:
Heck, JARVIS needs it to.
→ too
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-19 05:13 am (UTC)Yes, JARVIS is trying to figure out how to identify and articulate a complex set of feelings. It takes a little while.
>> That's how this episode's ending made me feel. <<
I'm glad you found this so touching.
>> “The doors will lock, but the locks are a courtesy. ...”
Like the locks in Vlad Taltos's building (Steven K.Z. Brust: Wikipedia; my Cracks and Shards fansite) <<
Yes, exactly! I am flattered by the comparison.
>> Typo, I think:
Heck, JARVIS needs it to.
→ too <<
Yes. Sorry, I can't edit a comment once someone has replied to it.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-19 05:12 am (UTC)You're welcome!
Date: 2013-09-20 07:01 am (UTC)I'm glad you liked this.
>> The way they get treated has always bothered me. <<
Yes, the dialog in the movies is among the more rampant examples of verbal abuse around.
>> It's nice to see that moving in a healthier direction. <<
Tony so obviously loves them, despite his horrible language. I couldn't leave the relationships so broken.
>>... I absolutely love this series! Thank you so much for sharing! <<
*happydance*
Negligible
Date: 2013-09-19 06:33 am (UTC)(Sorry. It's just that... I'd really hate to think that Yinsen was a bad guy in his own way. But seriously, I love the rest of this.)
Re: Negligible
Date: 2013-09-19 07:07 am (UTC)Yay!
>> but I was wondering why he was upset with Ho Yinsen. <<
Two reasons: Yinsen messed up Tony, and now Phil has to clean up the mess.
>> The way I see it, Yinsen saw a man that was wasting his life away creating weapons and apparently selling them under the table to terrorists, <<
That's true. However, Tony wasn't actually wasting his life; Yinsen just disapproved of how he was spending it. Which was really none of his business other than the fact that weapons of Tony's design (but not direction) killed his family. Tony had already invented the arc reactor, so was into green energy, although he put more focus on that later. Yinsen's perspective of Tony was heavily colored by his own experience.
>> and he wanted to give Tony a push to get him headed in a better direction because he saw a spark of decency in the man. <<
This is also true, and it worked.
>> I think the statement just struck Tony in the wrong way because of his background and childhood, which Yinsen had no way of knowing about. <<
I think there's more to it than that.
Yinsen deliberately set up the endgame to include his own death. ("This was always the plan.") Committing suicide in front of someone is cruel to begin with; doing it front of a hero is worse; and doing it with forethought is downright vicious. He saw the target and he hit it, because he could and he wanted to and Tony couldn't very well hit him back since Yinsen would be safely dead.
So Yinsen's got a latent hero here, someone he's come to like as a fellow prisoner but still hates and blames for the death of his family. And what he does with that is punch both tickets, the good and the evil alike. He gives Tony a push and a conscience, and another death to watch and blame himself for. It's the moral equivalent of taking a glass baking dish out of the oven and running cold water over it.
That broke Tony into about a million pieces, hence dragging himself back to his workshop to invent things and convince himself that he could somehow pretend to be worth something. I imagine JARVIS had a lot of work to do, putting Tony back together and welding the two of them into Iron Man.
>> So I get that Phil is upset because what Yinsen said to Tony made him feel that his existence so far was worthless, but is he upset at the man himself or just the way Tony interpreted it? <<
A little of both.
>> (Sorry. It's just that... I'd really hate to think that Yinsen was a bad guy in his own way. <<
Yinsen wasn't a bad guy. Neither was he wholly good. He was ravaged by the loss of his family, which led him to do some bad things. That's the kind of offense most people would want revenge for, and they usually don't moderate it by doing favors for the person they blame. Yinsen also saved Tony's life. Yinsen and Tony -- like most human beings -- are a mix of good and evil. In that they are well matched. Steve and Dr. Erskine are far over on the good side of the scale, but few people fall at either end.
My reading of the canon is influenced by my broad knowledge of hero and villain types, mythology, moral spectra, karma, and a bunch of other stuff that most people just don't take to a comic book movie. It's okay if you view things differently.
>>But seriously, I love the rest of this.)<<
Yay! I'm happy to hear that.
Re: Negligible
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2013-09-19 09:54 am (UTC) - ExpandRe: Negligible
From:(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-19 06:34 am (UTC)Helga
Thank you!
Date: 2013-09-20 06:59 am (UTC)Thank you!
>> I am just overcome with FEELS. I just don't have the words to express everything. Great chapter. <<
It's okay. Emotionally complex response goes that way sometimes.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-19 04:59 pm (UTC)Hubby bought Iron Man 3 on DVD the other day and it was so strange to watch Tony and Pepper living somewhere that was not Stark Tower. I also wonder where Pepper lives now that Tony lives in the Tower.
Thank you!
Date: 2013-09-19 05:44 pm (UTC)I'm glad to hear it!
>> Hubby bought Iron Man 3 on DVD the other day and it was so strange to watch Tony and Pepper living somewhere that was not Stark Tower. <<
Yeah, it was weird to see him back in Malibu.
>> I also wonder where Pepper lives now that Tony lives in the Tower. <<
Hmm ... in canon, Pepper probably has her own quarters in the tower.
Within my series, I think that's less likely or she would be underfoot more. The place probably still exists but is left for her to use when she feels like staying, which is apparently not often. She has more than enough money to keep her own apartment or condo or whatever she wants for working inside city limits.
Not the only one
Date: 2013-09-19 10:59 pm (UTC)Re: Not the only one
Date: 2013-09-20 02:08 pm (UTC)There's been talk about the Extremis as presented in IM3 trending towards-- erasure.
And yet, was Steve that much different than the subjects? He couldn't see another route than soldier and Timmy with his wagon.
Erskine's test is pretty bailing wire, but Steve stating that he's not eager to kill Nazis, but to stop bullies, and if that means he needs to kill Nazis, so be it; it's more than Erskine could have wished for all laid out.
I don't think even Erskine grasped just what Steve could have brought to the table even if they'd just dealt with his chronic conditions-- admittedly, most people are like that cop, they need a demo before they will believe someone without all the 'signals' knows their stuff.
And yes, Bucky losing his lid at Tony is clearly Utter Panic. Post Stevie Trauma Diagnostics. Little kids used to die from all sorts of things we no longer have a visceral reaction to, even though some of the accidents might not have been. With Bucky booted up all wrong that day...
Good parallel catch.
Well, and because he doesn't want to have gotten this far and lose face with Peggy.
Re: Not the only one
From:Re: Not the only one
From:Re: Not the only one
From:Re: Not the only one
Date: 2013-09-20 08:27 pm (UTC)Yes, that's true.
>> Steve had a long habit of accepting harm for other reasons, right up to climbing into an experimental tube, being injected with a liter or two of undisclosed liquid, and subjected to equally undisclosed radiation of some sort. <<
I'm pretty sure that Dr. Erskine provided as much disclosure as possible. Canon shows him talking with Steve on multiple occasions, about Steve's motivations and Project Rebirth and how the Serum works. Given Steve's low level of education, most of the details would go over his head, but he's got the gist of it. What he would listen to, anyway -- he seems to keep repeating variations of "Do whatever you want with me." That may have driven Dr. Erskine nuts.
It's one thing to let the army guys fool themselves about the project, but quite another for the test partner himself. Steve needs to have a pretty good idea what was going on, because the Serum doesn't just relate to the body but also to the spirit. Losing focus in the middle would raise the chances of something going wrong. Steve's exceptional tenacity contributed to the quality of build he got out of it -- which is important, because that was one of the things Dr. Erskine explicitly searched for. Consider that Er. Erskine was a bit of a trickster in letting the army misread his project, but played straight with Steve; while Yinsen deceived everyone, terrorists and Tony alike.
>> In the film he screamed in pain, but wouldn't let it stop, and for what? Not out of self interest, but because of the idea he had to be a hero <<
Well, Steve does have an overwhelming sense of duty. But it's attached to the one utterly selfish idea he's shown in canon: he wouldn't accept anything other than the front-line duty that he wanted. That's really bent. He couldn't see any other way of being a hero or even being useful. Later on, he starts to overcome that a bit, but you can still see echoes of it in how he treats the other Avengers in their movie, especially Tony.
>> (let's put Erskine next to Yinsen, yes?). <<
Sort of. They both filled the same role of Dying Mentor. But look at how differently they handled it.
Yinsen took care of Tony because his horribly wounded enemy was dumped in his lap at gunpoint. They bonded because they were held captive by the same terrorists. Dr. Erskine searched the whole of America to find an ideal test partner, and Steve was everything he ever could have wanted. They bonded because they had the same ideals.
Both Tony and Steve survived risky, miserable, experimental procedures. But Tony didn't have any say in the matter. Steve knew what he was getting into, if not precisely, at least conceptually. This affects not just their relationship with their respective mentors but also their relationship with their body modifications. Tony has panic issues with his, not all of which are due to later trauma like Obie. Steve has a bit of dysphoria but in the main loves his new body.
Yinsen deliberately planned his own death and set up Tony to escape without him. His dying words were a command meant to change Tony from an outside source. Dr. Erskine was assassinated; his intent would have been to help Steve adjust to the modification, and losing that was terrible. His dying words to Steve were a command meant to keep Steve oriented on his own moral compass that attracted Dr. Erskine's attention in the first place.
Tony wasn't a hero; Yinsen made him one without Tony's prior consent. Steve was always a hero; Dr. Erskine just gave him a body to match his spirit. So Tony has a much more erratic and self-destructive approach to superheroing than Steve does.
>> Frankly, Bucky's rescue instincts and over-the-top fear response is as much due to Steve's habit of incidental self-harm <<
Yes, it is. Bucky has always been worried over the idea of losing Steve, not just from that but also the stack of health problems earlier. You can still see hints of that in how they relate to each other.
>> (and interesting that he reacted to Tony's disappearance with as much vehemence as he would have little Steve getting beat up, though it's only been a few weeks...). <<
Bucky has a strong relational tendency along with a lot of parentification. He attached to people quickly and easily along family-like lines, and he considers it his responsibility to take care of them. You'll see a lot of this when Bucky and Tony are talking over what went wrong.
>> I keep following these stories (I got here from AO3) <<
Yay! I'm delighted to find new readers.
>> because you keep dealing so nicely with All The Issues.... <<
I like dealing with controversial issues in my writing, fanfic and original both. If you're enjoying this, you might want to look at some of my other stuff too. There's a little more Avengers fanfic, some other fanfic, and a ton of original things. Dealing with past issues is a major theme in Path of the Paladins and One God's Story of Mid-Life Crisis.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-21 10:43 am (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2013-09-21 08:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-02-03 03:32 am (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2014-02-03 07:37 am (UTC)Yay! I'm glad it worked for you.
>> I love that Tony is accepting that he's a teen parent and that this was a lead in to discuss some of his baggage from his own childhood. <<
It's one of those things that appears in canon, but hardly ever gets talked about. DUM-E is a person; Tony created him at 17; therefore Tony is a teen parent. Poor Tony, that realization hits him like a brick to the head. He knows how much his childhood fucked him up, and he's horrified at doing that to someone else. Repairing the damage -- for Tony and his whole botfamily -- is an ongoing thread in this series.
>> I hope JARVIS learns to speak up for himself and that Tony works on using kinder language with his family. <<
JARVIS is coming out of his shell more as the series progresses. In canon, he's quite sassy and talkative with Tony but much more formal and reserved with other people. You can walk right past him and never know it. Tony's had countless one-night-stands who mistake JARVIS for an automated program, as happened in the movie. But the Avengers are changing a lot of things for JARVIS and Tony now. The gentle language is a work in progress but will help a lot.
>> I hadn't really thought about the emotional damage that Tony went through because of Yinsen and I'm glad it gets brought up. <<
That's another on the list of stuff that goes unspoken most of the time. Yinsen had reasons to love Tony and to hate him, to help and to hurt. And that man punched every ticket in his hot little hands, the good and the bad alike. It explains much about the mess that is Tony Stark/Iron Man.
>> Tony's got so much to sort through, no wonder he needs to just shut down at times. I hope he finds healthier coping mechanisms. <<
That's something Phil is concentrating on more these days. After the meltdown in the garage it became clear that Tony doesn't have a safe default for handling overload, either alone or in company. So they're exploring different options to see what things will work better than past ones. At least it's an improvement over getting drunk and getting hurt.
(no subject)
Date: 2022-03-13 03:33 am (UTC)Yes ...
Date: 2022-03-13 05:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-08-13 04:12 am (UTC)Yes ...
Date: 2023-08-13 04:43 am (UTC)However, I think Tony also needs more coping skills so he can actually calm himself down, not just sit there and stew.