Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 26
Oct. 9th, 2013 12:05 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25. Skip to Part 28, Part 29, Part 30, Part 31.
WARNING: Mentions of past violation, body horror, nightmare fuel, and radical trust. Bucky and Tony have had some graphic nightmares and they're sharing a few examples. If these issues are squicky for you, think carefully before deciding whether to read ahead.
"Hide and Seek" Part 26
"We weren't the only ones who got hurt," Tony said bleakly. "JARVIS sliced himself up trying to get around the lock I placed on my location."
"I heard about that. It worried me," Bucky said. "Are you sure he's okay?"
"Yeah, I spent a few hours going over the code to put everything back in working order," Tony said.
"I'm glad to hear that. I'm not used to thinking of him as vulnerable," Bucky said. He rubbed a hand over his pants pocket, outlining the Starkphone hidden there.
Tony is right. Bucky does use technology as a touchstone for JARVIS, Phil thought.
"It was my fault," Tony said. "I forgot the first rule of bondage: never tie livestock or people in a way that they can hurt themselves if they start struggling."
"Guess I learned how to tie people in a different school than you did," Bucky said. "You still didn't get JARVIS hurt on purpose. It was just a nasty accident. Besides, he could have asked us for help, or at least told us what was going on, so it's not all on you."
"I have promised not to conceal my injuries in the future," JARVIS offered.
"That's a relief," Bucky said. "You scared us this time."
"It's just that I'm supposed to take care of him," Tony said. "He trusts me, and I really hurt him, and I feel like crap."
"Yeah, I know. It's rough when you're trying to look after someone, and you wind up doing harm instead." Bucky said. He leaned forward to pat Tony's knee, then sat back. "Look what a wreck I made of you."
"Are we ... going to be okay?" Tony said tentatively. "I'd hate to lose you, Bucky. You get what I'm saying when I talk about cars and stuff. You don't mind getting your hands dirty."
Bucky nodded. "I don't feel like you want to hurt me. I don't want to hurt you either. We just got mixed up real bad," he said. "You need to forgive yourself."
"So do you," Phil pointed out. The whole team tended to do better at forgiving each other than themselves.
"Yeah, I'll try," Bucky said. "It may take some time for all this to settle, but we'll get through. We're family; that means we don't walk away from each other. It's hard, though, when I can't always remember things or even understand how to act."
"Remember that PTSD causes alterations in the brain and biochemistry. Sometimes those are long-term or permanent; other times they can be healed," Phil said. "Also consider the possibility of traumatic brain injury from the original fall or subsequent conflicts, and the mind control. Of course you're having a hard time, even though you are recovering."
"That's hard on everyone," Tony said. "Bucky, we didn't know what to do for you when you woke up with your memory jammed, what would help or what would make matters worse. It was plain luck that you said something which made me think of the toolshed." His fingers curled as if remembering the wrench.
"All right, there's something practical that we can do for future occasions," Phil said. "Bucky, we could use a guide to what sets you off and how to respond. Think about things that help you regain your memory and anchor yourself in the here and now. Write them down. Then make a list of things that make you feel worse. Tony, you might consider making your own list for emotional overload." Clint and Natasha already had mental care plans filed with Phil. Getting the other Avengers to do likewise could reduce future stress.
"Like a trigger list, but specifically for when I'm out of my head?" Bucky said.
"Yes, exactly," Phil said. "Then we can refer to those parameters on the bad days, and maybe they won't be quite so bad."
"Advance permissions," Tony said. "I need to know what's okay to do with you when you're clear-headed and when you're not. I got called up to check your equipment, and I really didn't feel comfortable going very far with that, outside of an emergency. I know that's sensitive territory for you. It would help a lot if you tell me what I have your consent to do under circumstances when I can't just ask you at the time. That is, if you let me touch you at all, after what I said."
Bucky reached out and slipped the fingers of his left hand under Tony's right. "I give you permission to do whatever you need," he said in a level tone. "This thing ... I didn't choose it, I didn't want it, and it doesn't feel like me. It really scares me, sometimes. I've had nightmares about the damn thing strangling me." Bucky shook his head. "Or worse, strangling someone else."
"I've dreamed about the arc reactor turning into a blender," Tony confessed. "The first implant, the electromagnet, wasn't something I consented to. It was just put in me. I didn't deal with that real well. Building the arc reactor helped, but only so much. It still gets to me sometimes."
Phil and Bucky gave him twin looks of horror. No wonder he has trouble sleeping, stays up too long, and then crashes inconveniently, Phil thought.
"So you know what it's like, being afraid of your own body, worrying that it might betray you," Bucky said.
"Yeah. I get that," Tony said, his voice hoarse.
At least now Tony and Bucky have each other, Phil thought. Maybe that will help them both come to terms with what has happened to them.
"That's why I need you to take control if I lose my head," Bucky said. "Keep me safe; keep me from hurting anyone. Whatever it takes."
"That's a lot. Are you sure you want to go that far?" Tony said. He stroked a gentle thumb over Bucky's artificial hand.
"Want to, no; need to, yes," Bucky said. "I can't fix this myself. There's nobody else, Tony, no other good safe option. I sure as hell don't trust SHIELD."
"Agreed," Tony said grimly.
Phil just nodded. Bucky actually had broken his right arm, and both legs, while in SHIELD medical. We do not need a repetition of that, Phil thought.
"Anyhow, you're a better mechanic than I am," Bucky said to Tony. "You know more about my gear than I do. You've taken pretty good care of me so far, and when you make a mistake, you man up. That's enough for me. I can't always ... feel much trust, these days, not inside where it really counts. It comes and goes. But I know how it's supposed to work. I can still choose to place my trust in you."
* * *
Notes:
Hurting someone else can hurt you too, given the tendency for sympathetic pain. People who love each other are in a position to do far more damage. Know what to do when you've hurt someone and how to heal relationships.
Tony learned the rules of bondage through blacksmithing and consensual kink. (These next two are adult-oriented erotic links.) Recreational bondage involves careful attention to safety. There are general guidelines for securing livestock along with specifics for horses, cows, and other animals. (Some of the following links are more violent.) Bucky learned martial lines. There are a few extant examples such as hojojutsu, along with instructions on how to tie someone up. Chinese detention centers use bondage as torture, and a hogtie variation includes a rope around the throat for torture or execution.
Self-forgiveness is a way to release emotional baggage. Let go of guilt by making amends. It's important to forgive yourself even if you've hurt someone else.
PTSD changes the brain and other aspects of the body. Abused children have a distinctive cluster of effects. This can be a permanent, life-altering injury. It helps to understand how these changes affect survivors. However, the brain is malleable, so recovery is possible.
Planning ahead helps buffer the impact of PTSD. Create a self-help plan with techniques and goals to address your condition. Make a safety plan to deal with triggery situations. Use a self-care plan to combat depression. Assemble a self-help kit of items helpful for depression or other issues. Learn coping skills for anger and anxiety. Here is a general handbook for self-management of mental disorders. You may also want to make a life plan of goals, because you are more than your psych issues. If you're a survivor, these are things you can do for yourself. If you're a supporter, they're things you can help a survivor do.
A Wellness Recovery Action Plan is a more complex set of resources for managing mental health concerns. It includes daily maintenance, triggers, early warning signs, danger signs, a crisis plan with advance directives, and a post-crisis plan. This covers situations when a person is not thinking clearly and needs someone else to take care of them temporarily. Learn how to make a WRAP and use it in your recovery.
Caregivers also need coping skills for handling someone with mental issues. Know first aid for someone in a mental health crisis.
(There are a whole bunch of graphic and disturbing links coming.)
Body dysphoria can result from amputation, surgical intervention, prosthetics, or similar things. Body image changes in ways that can be difficult to cope with, and may cause other problems. It can play into rejection of prosthetic devices. Soldiers may derive some comfort from losing body parts "for a good cause" -- which Bucky may figure out eventually, but that doesn't help Tony. This also relates to prosthetics that radically change appearance and may be more powerful than natural features. "Your body, your choice" is a fight that spans many controversial issues, and is especially sensitive for people who have survived a violation of bodily integrity.
Body horror is a subgenre of entertainment concerned with the destruction and/or invasion of the human body along with the attendant revulsion of the person within that body. It is typified in Lovecraftian horror and also laps over into chronic pain and illness. These motifs comprise a canonical feature of Iron Man and Hulk, also touched on in the Winter Soldier. Both Tony and Bucky sometimes feel afraid of their own bodies and their prosthetic devices. It's a constant stressor that makes dealing with anything else more difficult, and a key reason why they are hypersensitive to further threats in this direction.
Body betrayal is a feeling that often afflicts survivors of abuse, rape, or other violations. This is particularly true for sexual responses during rape but also applies to different situations when reflexive actions or bodily needs conflict with mental wishes. The survivor may feel like damaged goods and have a hard time loving their body. Bucky and Tony both feel that if they had only been better, they wouldn't have suffered like they did.
Bodily integrity is a crucial right. This comes up in everything from reproductive freedom to force-feeding. When PTSD and substance abuse combine, as in Tony's alcohol problem, the pattern can reflect the specific type of damage done to integrity as the person violates his own body in a new way. Bucky also stumbles over discussions about replacing his arm, because the traumatic nature of the current equipment makes it hard for him to imagine willingly accepting another device. Tony at least has the advantage of having gone through that already with the various iterations of his chestpiece.
Nightmare fuel refers to images or experiences which are exceptionally horrifying; Tony and Bucky have survived plenty of those, hence the graphic nature of their bad dreams. Nightmares may create physical sleep disturbances in PTSD. This makes it risky to wake a survivor, so safety precautions are in order. A drop in body temperature may correlate with nightmares, and Bucky's temperature tends to lower noticeably when he sleeps. Contemporary western culture dismisses dreams and nightmares as unreal, but they can be very powerful, and acknowledging this can help defuse them. Veterans with PTSD may find image rehearsal helpful in reducing nightmares.
Trust is the glue that holds relationships together. People practice trustworthiness as an important part of character-building. Children learn trust or mistrust while growing up. Good parents do things to build trust with children. Even abused children can develop trust in a loving family. You can see how Uncle Phil has fostered this through ageplay and other methods, so that now the Avengers are exchanging trust with each other as well. Reliable people have certain traits in common. Learn how to be dependable yourself.
Trust is a choice as well as an emotion. People can learn to trust again after abuse or other betrayal. Choosing to trust involves making agreements. Overcoming trust issues leads to healthier relationships. Trustworthiness centers on how much one person matters to another. Trust is an art. It's not about finding someone perfectly trustworthy who will never hurt you, but rather about promising to work through whatever hurt happens. For Bucky, it is precisely the fact that Tony has made mistakes with him, and made up for them, that proves Tony a trustworthy person and makes it possible for Bucky to grant Tony such a broad authority in case of emergency.
[To be continued in Part 27 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25. Skip to Part 28, Part 29, Part 30, Part 31.
WARNING: Mentions of past violation, body horror, nightmare fuel, and radical trust. Bucky and Tony have had some graphic nightmares and they're sharing a few examples. If these issues are squicky for you, think carefully before deciding whether to read ahead.
"Hide and Seek" Part 26
"We weren't the only ones who got hurt," Tony said bleakly. "JARVIS sliced himself up trying to get around the lock I placed on my location."
"I heard about that. It worried me," Bucky said. "Are you sure he's okay?"
"Yeah, I spent a few hours going over the code to put everything back in working order," Tony said.
"I'm glad to hear that. I'm not used to thinking of him as vulnerable," Bucky said. He rubbed a hand over his pants pocket, outlining the Starkphone hidden there.
Tony is right. Bucky does use technology as a touchstone for JARVIS, Phil thought.
"It was my fault," Tony said. "I forgot the first rule of bondage: never tie livestock or people in a way that they can hurt themselves if they start struggling."
"Guess I learned how to tie people in a different school than you did," Bucky said. "You still didn't get JARVIS hurt on purpose. It was just a nasty accident. Besides, he could have asked us for help, or at least told us what was going on, so it's not all on you."
"I have promised not to conceal my injuries in the future," JARVIS offered.
"That's a relief," Bucky said. "You scared us this time."
"It's just that I'm supposed to take care of him," Tony said. "He trusts me, and I really hurt him, and I feel like crap."
"Yeah, I know. It's rough when you're trying to look after someone, and you wind up doing harm instead." Bucky said. He leaned forward to pat Tony's knee, then sat back. "Look what a wreck I made of you."
"Are we ... going to be okay?" Tony said tentatively. "I'd hate to lose you, Bucky. You get what I'm saying when I talk about cars and stuff. You don't mind getting your hands dirty."
Bucky nodded. "I don't feel like you want to hurt me. I don't want to hurt you either. We just got mixed up real bad," he said. "You need to forgive yourself."
"So do you," Phil pointed out. The whole team tended to do better at forgiving each other than themselves.
"Yeah, I'll try," Bucky said. "It may take some time for all this to settle, but we'll get through. We're family; that means we don't walk away from each other. It's hard, though, when I can't always remember things or even understand how to act."
"Remember that PTSD causes alterations in the brain and biochemistry. Sometimes those are long-term or permanent; other times they can be healed," Phil said. "Also consider the possibility of traumatic brain injury from the original fall or subsequent conflicts, and the mind control. Of course you're having a hard time, even though you are recovering."
"That's hard on everyone," Tony said. "Bucky, we didn't know what to do for you when you woke up with your memory jammed, what would help or what would make matters worse. It was plain luck that you said something which made me think of the toolshed." His fingers curled as if remembering the wrench.
"All right, there's something practical that we can do for future occasions," Phil said. "Bucky, we could use a guide to what sets you off and how to respond. Think about things that help you regain your memory and anchor yourself in the here and now. Write them down. Then make a list of things that make you feel worse. Tony, you might consider making your own list for emotional overload." Clint and Natasha already had mental care plans filed with Phil. Getting the other Avengers to do likewise could reduce future stress.
"Like a trigger list, but specifically for when I'm out of my head?" Bucky said.
"Yes, exactly," Phil said. "Then we can refer to those parameters on the bad days, and maybe they won't be quite so bad."
"Advance permissions," Tony said. "I need to know what's okay to do with you when you're clear-headed and when you're not. I got called up to check your equipment, and I really didn't feel comfortable going very far with that, outside of an emergency. I know that's sensitive territory for you. It would help a lot if you tell me what I have your consent to do under circumstances when I can't just ask you at the time. That is, if you let me touch you at all, after what I said."
Bucky reached out and slipped the fingers of his left hand under Tony's right. "I give you permission to do whatever you need," he said in a level tone. "This thing ... I didn't choose it, I didn't want it, and it doesn't feel like me. It really scares me, sometimes. I've had nightmares about the damn thing strangling me." Bucky shook his head. "Or worse, strangling someone else."
"I've dreamed about the arc reactor turning into a blender," Tony confessed. "The first implant, the electromagnet, wasn't something I consented to. It was just put in me. I didn't deal with that real well. Building the arc reactor helped, but only so much. It still gets to me sometimes."
Phil and Bucky gave him twin looks of horror. No wonder he has trouble sleeping, stays up too long, and then crashes inconveniently, Phil thought.
"So you know what it's like, being afraid of your own body, worrying that it might betray you," Bucky said.
"Yeah. I get that," Tony said, his voice hoarse.
At least now Tony and Bucky have each other, Phil thought. Maybe that will help them both come to terms with what has happened to them.
"That's why I need you to take control if I lose my head," Bucky said. "Keep me safe; keep me from hurting anyone. Whatever it takes."
"That's a lot. Are you sure you want to go that far?" Tony said. He stroked a gentle thumb over Bucky's artificial hand.
"Want to, no; need to, yes," Bucky said. "I can't fix this myself. There's nobody else, Tony, no other good safe option. I sure as hell don't trust SHIELD."
"Agreed," Tony said grimly.
Phil just nodded. Bucky actually had broken his right arm, and both legs, while in SHIELD medical. We do not need a repetition of that, Phil thought.
"Anyhow, you're a better mechanic than I am," Bucky said to Tony. "You know more about my gear than I do. You've taken pretty good care of me so far, and when you make a mistake, you man up. That's enough for me. I can't always ... feel much trust, these days, not inside where it really counts. It comes and goes. But I know how it's supposed to work. I can still choose to place my trust in you."
* * *
Notes:
Hurting someone else can hurt you too, given the tendency for sympathetic pain. People who love each other are in a position to do far more damage. Know what to do when you've hurt someone and how to heal relationships.
Tony learned the rules of bondage through blacksmithing and consensual kink. (These next two are adult-oriented erotic links.) Recreational bondage involves careful attention to safety. There are general guidelines for securing livestock along with specifics for horses, cows, and other animals. (Some of the following links are more violent.) Bucky learned martial lines. There are a few extant examples such as hojojutsu, along with instructions on how to tie someone up. Chinese detention centers use bondage as torture, and a hogtie variation includes a rope around the throat for torture or execution.
Self-forgiveness is a way to release emotional baggage. Let go of guilt by making amends. It's important to forgive yourself even if you've hurt someone else.
PTSD changes the brain and other aspects of the body. Abused children have a distinctive cluster of effects. This can be a permanent, life-altering injury. It helps to understand how these changes affect survivors. However, the brain is malleable, so recovery is possible.
Planning ahead helps buffer the impact of PTSD. Create a self-help plan with techniques and goals to address your condition. Make a safety plan to deal with triggery situations. Use a self-care plan to combat depression. Assemble a self-help kit of items helpful for depression or other issues. Learn coping skills for anger and anxiety. Here is a general handbook for self-management of mental disorders. You may also want to make a life plan of goals, because you are more than your psych issues. If you're a survivor, these are things you can do for yourself. If you're a supporter, they're things you can help a survivor do.
A Wellness Recovery Action Plan is a more complex set of resources for managing mental health concerns. It includes daily maintenance, triggers, early warning signs, danger signs, a crisis plan with advance directives, and a post-crisis plan. This covers situations when a person is not thinking clearly and needs someone else to take care of them temporarily. Learn how to make a WRAP and use it in your recovery.
Caregivers also need coping skills for handling someone with mental issues. Know first aid for someone in a mental health crisis.
(There are a whole bunch of graphic and disturbing links coming.)
Body dysphoria can result from amputation, surgical intervention, prosthetics, or similar things. Body image changes in ways that can be difficult to cope with, and may cause other problems. It can play into rejection of prosthetic devices. Soldiers may derive some comfort from losing body parts "for a good cause" -- which Bucky may figure out eventually, but that doesn't help Tony. This also relates to prosthetics that radically change appearance and may be more powerful than natural features. "Your body, your choice" is a fight that spans many controversial issues, and is especially sensitive for people who have survived a violation of bodily integrity.
Body horror is a subgenre of entertainment concerned with the destruction and/or invasion of the human body along with the attendant revulsion of the person within that body. It is typified in Lovecraftian horror and also laps over into chronic pain and illness. These motifs comprise a canonical feature of Iron Man and Hulk, also touched on in the Winter Soldier. Both Tony and Bucky sometimes feel afraid of their own bodies and their prosthetic devices. It's a constant stressor that makes dealing with anything else more difficult, and a key reason why they are hypersensitive to further threats in this direction.
Body betrayal is a feeling that often afflicts survivors of abuse, rape, or other violations. This is particularly true for sexual responses during rape but also applies to different situations when reflexive actions or bodily needs conflict with mental wishes. The survivor may feel like damaged goods and have a hard time loving their body. Bucky and Tony both feel that if they had only been better, they wouldn't have suffered like they did.
Bodily integrity is a crucial right. This comes up in everything from reproductive freedom to force-feeding. When PTSD and substance abuse combine, as in Tony's alcohol problem, the pattern can reflect the specific type of damage done to integrity as the person violates his own body in a new way. Bucky also stumbles over discussions about replacing his arm, because the traumatic nature of the current equipment makes it hard for him to imagine willingly accepting another device. Tony at least has the advantage of having gone through that already with the various iterations of his chestpiece.
Nightmare fuel refers to images or experiences which are exceptionally horrifying; Tony and Bucky have survived plenty of those, hence the graphic nature of their bad dreams. Nightmares may create physical sleep disturbances in PTSD. This makes it risky to wake a survivor, so safety precautions are in order. A drop in body temperature may correlate with nightmares, and Bucky's temperature tends to lower noticeably when he sleeps. Contemporary western culture dismisses dreams and nightmares as unreal, but they can be very powerful, and acknowledging this can help defuse them. Veterans with PTSD may find image rehearsal helpful in reducing nightmares.
Trust is the glue that holds relationships together. People practice trustworthiness as an important part of character-building. Children learn trust or mistrust while growing up. Good parents do things to build trust with children. Even abused children can develop trust in a loving family. You can see how Uncle Phil has fostered this through ageplay and other methods, so that now the Avengers are exchanging trust with each other as well. Reliable people have certain traits in common. Learn how to be dependable yourself.
Trust is a choice as well as an emotion. People can learn to trust again after abuse or other betrayal. Choosing to trust involves making agreements. Overcoming trust issues leads to healthier relationships. Trustworthiness centers on how much one person matters to another. Trust is an art. It's not about finding someone perfectly trustworthy who will never hurt you, but rather about promising to work through whatever hurt happens. For Bucky, it is precisely the fact that Tony has made mistakes with him, and made up for them, that proves Tony a trustworthy person and makes it possible for Bucky to grant Tony such a broad authority in case of emergency.
[To be continued in Part 27 ...]
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-09 05:29 pm (UTC)Giddyant
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-09 07:17 pm (UTC)Thank you! I'm glad you're enjoying this.
>> I was wondering, is it me or is Tony really ecquivocating over the damage done to him? <<
Sometimes it's hard for Tony to put the pieces together. He knows what bothers him and how he responds to that, but identifying specific feelings and then articulating those is more difficult for him. Notice how much more of his focus falls on actions rather than emotions.
>> He's only really admitted that something hurt him when it was to do with the effect on Jarvis. <<
Oh yes, that one was crystal clear to him. Tony isn't as emotionally detached as Bruce or Natasha; some things he can recognize very well. But he still tends not to talk about his feelings often.
>> Perhaps when he was saying that game night was meant to be a safe space which I took to imply that he didn't feel safe at the time. <<
That too. Tony felt threatened by what Bucky said, precisely because he's been using game night as a time when it was safe to act up a little, and know that he wouldn't get yelled at or hit.
>> He's managed to skate away from nearly all the discussions cleaving close to it. <<
That's basically reflex for Tony. It's hard for him to work straight through emotional issues like this. Like playing chicken, he always wants to veer away.
>> He's explained why he reacted the way he did but he hasn't really acknowledged that what Bucky did hurt him. <<
It's more implied than stated outright. Sometimes Phil helps Tony fill in the blanks.
>> Is it that he won't show weakness (which I think unlikely) or more that he's afraid he'll push people away? <<
It's not a reluctance to show weakness in this case, although that is a standard behavior for Tony, because he's revealing other points of vulnerability like the past abuse.
Tony often worries about driving people away. Notice that he and Bucky both mention that as a concern; it's why they're so determined to make up.
I think the main reasons are that Tony isn't completely clear on his own feelings about the garage fight, and that he has a hard time expressing his emotional experiences and needs. His circling routine is typical of how he deals with difficult issues. (Remember how he danced around Pepper with the issue of palladium poisoning.) This is why Phil hasn't pushed Tony to process the whole incident all at once. They're breaking it down into multiple discussions of different issues. You'll see a little more of Tony working through the hurt later in the story.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-09 08:31 pm (UTC)Giddyant
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-09 09:30 pm (UTC)I'm glad I could help.
>> I had actually gone back and reread the entire discussion in a one and so it seemed to be more obvious to me than when I was seeing it in sections, especially when contrasting him with Bucky. <<
Remember that Steve and Bucky probably had the healthiest childhood of any Avengers, aside from Phil himself. They have the basic idea of family as a support network and sharing information as helpful. Bucky is a tough guy so he's not really into talking about his feelings, but he can manage it at need.
Tony is evasive by nature. This is the guy who fobbed off a seriously skewed impression of himself on Natalie Rushman and Nick Fury. He also managed to conceal the fact that he was dying of palladium poisoning from two of his closest friends, Pepper and Rhodey. Tony's tendency to mend breaches by flinging intimate details into them is an acquired skill, and he's not altogether deft with it. Sometimes it works, other times people get hurt.
>> The fallout from this is going to be a doozy, isn't it? <<
Oh yes. By this point, they've mostly worked through necessary realizations with each other, although healing the bruised feelings will take a bit longer. But the revelations will continue to impact their developing relationship later in the series. They've also dredged up stuff they'll be dealing with personally, like Bucky's ambivalence about his prosthetic arm and Tony's gradual acceptance that he needs to deal with his Howard damage.
>> So much has come to the fore with these two and more to come from the others, I would think. <<
Yes. In particular, Steve loops into this, because he's connected with both of them. There are also more explorations of how this stuff affects the team.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-09 06:46 pm (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2013-10-11 07:07 am (UTC)That's true. He's used to being hurt. *ponder* That's true of most of the other Avengers too. Most of them are also more upset about someone else getting hurt than themselves getting hurt.
>> See, what totally got Tony livid with Ten Rings. <<
Hurt Tony: "I will escape and shoot you."
Hurt Yinsen: "I will boil your entire camp down to the fucking bedrock."
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-10 06:46 am (UTC)I like that they are doing something practical about the situation. Not just apologizing, and making amends, but trying to prevent it from happening again.
I'm worried about Bucky's arm, the power source that's messing with everyone's heads. Do they realize what's going on?
Take it as read that I will be dispensing cuddles, cookies, and hot chocolate with a very free hand from now until the end of the fic. Probably 'til the end of the series.
I love Tony here, so, so much.
Helga
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-11 05:58 am (UTC)They really are. Both of them have a very limited pool of people they consider close, so they don't want to give up on anyone unless somebody is actively trying to harm them. Bucky considers making up for mistakes to be a point of honor; to Tony it's kind of a luxury because people often throw him away instead of letting him fix things.
>> Again, I'm so touched by this that I am crying. So many feels. <<
Aww! *hanky*
>> I like that they are doing something practical about the situation. Not just apologizing, and making amends, but trying to prevent it from happening again. <<
That's something I encourage, so I work it into my writing where relevant. For some misunderstandings, a verbal apology is enough. More often, though, mishaps require some kind of practical work to repair damage and/or prevent a repetition. This is where the analysis comes in -- you have to take the time to figure out exactly what went wrong so you know how to stop it. Otherwise you keep re-having the same fight. So this is a way of showing you care, and of investing in the relationship to make it better. This part, Bucky understands pretty well and Tony is just beginning to grasp because it's new to him.
>> I'm worried about Bucky's arm, the power source that's messing with everyone's heads. Do they realize what's going on? <<
They believe that the energy is bad for Bucky, based on comparisons to previous examples that are similar. They have a hypothesis that it could have negative effects on other people, given enough proximity. They haven't quite put that together with the effects on Steve and Tony, who have sometimes spent a bunch of time right next to Bucky.
>> Take it as read that I will be dispensing cuddles, cookies, and hot chocolate with a very free hand from now until the end of the fic. Probably 'til the end of the series. <<
Comfort food and cuddles can go a long way toward making a tense situation bearable.
>> I love Tony here, so, so much. <<
That's so sweet. He deserves the encouragement. He's trying so hard, and he barely knows what he's doing because he has had so little opportunity for this kind of problem-solving in the past.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-14 10:37 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2013-10-16 11:19 pm (UTC)That's family. Bucky at least has a good imprint for that, even if he's gotten knocked around since. Tony's learning.
>> (Really, whoever started to rumor Tony was selfish? Oh, right, Tony...) <<
Exactly. It's a way of discouraging people from trying to take advantage of him, which is a serious problem for a rich genius. But when asked to describe himself: "Genius billionaire playboy philanthropist."
body image
Date: 2013-10-22 06:26 am (UTC)The body integrity thing is interesting. For many years I have been trying to get some sort of permanent birth control. As an asexual, I seem to have a lot of anxiety regarding the possibility of pregnancy and I knew that I never wanted children from before I even realized my sexual identity (age 8 or so). It's been upsetting for many years. May be resolved next month, I have hopes. But I never really thought about it this way before.
Re: body image
Date: 2013-10-22 07:16 am (UTC)Welcome! I'm glad you followed me over here.
>> Had to chirp up with an anecdote that you may find interesting. I am whole in body with no serious injuries but as far back as I remember, my subconscious? body image does not include my arms or shoulders if I am not actively paying attention to them. <<
Wow, that is fascinating. I have not heard anything exactly like that. Closest I can think of is that some transfolk don't identify with the sexbits they're not supposed to have, which for a neuter person can be all of them.
>> No bad consequences so far as I can tell but I run into a LOT of door frames and corners because I don't account for the space they take up when my brain is figuring out how close I can I turn a corner or walk through a doorway. <<
Yep, that kind of thing happens with any body dysphoria; whatever part isn't in your mental map, your automatic reactions don't account for.
I have to wonder if it affects the brain's ability to add objects, such as tools, to the mental map -- and if so, does the brain map the arm too, or only the tool?
In one of my recent settings, Diminished Expectations, I have a lot of characters who are missing arms, legs, or both due to a congenital condition. The setting is seriously dystopic but readers are starting to prompt me for more positive things now that the ball is rolling. So if that appeals to you, feel free to give it a try.
>> The body integrity thing is interesting. For many years I have been trying to get some sort of permanent birth control. As an asexual, I seem to have a lot of anxiety regarding the possibility of pregnancy and I knew that I never wanted children from before I even realized my sexual identity (age 8 or so). <<
That makes sense, especially given how abusive society is turning toward women.
>> It's been upsetting for many years.<<
Having your agency violated usually is.
I have at least one childfree friend with a similar experience, who had sound physical reasons for not reproducing, but took years to get anyone to agree to help -- and marital sex was desired, and wanted to be made safe, and it was a ruddy nuisance.
>> May be resolved next month, I have hopes. <<
I wish you luck! If it doesn't pan out, try checking the trans community. They tend to know helpful doctors who believe body decisions should be made by the wearer.
>> But I never really thought about it this way before. <<
I'm glad I could give you a new angle.
I think you'll be interested to see where the story goes, as Bucky works through his issues with his arm.
Re: body image
Date: 2013-10-22 10:54 pm (UTC)Responding to your tool question (sorry, can't figure out how to copy and paste on my phone). Mapping the arm when using tools or carrying something...it varies. My desk at work, doing anything on the desk activates my shoulder because it causes pain there but frequently not my elbows because I knock things over with them constantly. If I am actively using the tool, say a pencil or a computer mouse, it activates the hands but not necessarily the rest of the arm, which is kind or weird when I think about. Holding things varies wildly; if I carrying a pencil or a spoon or something of that size, if I am holding with my pinky fingers, which I do frequently because it leaves the rest of the hand free, I will almost always forget about the tool entirely. But not with any of the other fingers. So there's that, hope that was helpful to your ponderings.
And my doctor now is actually pretty great, the risk of failure is in the surgery itself because I'm apparently shaped weird. This is actually the second try because first try was the essure device that has even less chance of pregnancy than a tubal ligation but it completely failed despite the doc's best efforts. That failure left me in tears for weeks and I almost permanently ruined a friendship.
Re: body image
Date: 2013-10-22 11:10 pm (UTC)That's okay.
>> Mapping the arm when using tools or carrying something...it varies. <<
Wow. It sounds like a point-defense system, where only the bit in use is covered, not the whole thing. I haven't heard that before, and will try to remember it for future reference.
*ponder* But I'll bet that plays into why some transfolk dislike sexual activity with mismatched parts. They can keep the wrong bits off their mental map, but erotic stimulation puts them on the map, and that's icky.
>> My desk at work, doing anything on the desk activates my shoulder because it causes pain there but frequently not my elbows because I knock things over with them constantly. If I am actively using the tool, say a pencil or a computer mouse, it activates the hands but not necessarily the rest of the arm, which is kind or weird when I think about. <<
I think it makes sense.
>> Holding things varies wildly; if I carrying a pencil or a spoon or something of that size, if I am holding with my pinky fingers, which I do frequently because it leaves the rest of the hand free, I will almost always forget about the tool entirely. But not with any of the other fingers. So there's that, hope that was helpful to your ponderings. <<
I'm really intrigued by the difference in the fingers.
>> And my doctor now is actually pretty great, <<
That's good to hear.
>> the risk of failure is in the surgery itself because I'm apparently shaped weird. <<
Oh, yeah. Not having a standard body makes everything so much harder. Sometimes it's possible to compensate, other times there just aren't any options that seem to work well. My sympathies.
>> This is actually the second try because first try was the essure device that has even less chance of pregnancy than a tubal ligation but it completely failed despite the doc's best efforts. That failure left me in tears for weeks and I almost permanently ruined a friendship. <<
Alas! That does sound wrenching. I hope you get better results in the future.
Re: body image
Date: 2014-07-13 03:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2022-03-13 04:55 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-08-13 04:36 am (UTC)Yes ...
Date: 2023-08-13 05:30 am (UTC)