Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 27
Oct. 11th, 2013 12:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26. Skip to Part 29, Part 30, Part 31, Part 32.
"Hide and Seek" Part 27
Phil was reminded of Tony asking him to learn the code for JARVIS, and considering Bucky for that task as well. He thought, too, about selecting medical and other support staff for SHIELD. Sometimes you just had to take your best chance from the limited options you had available, and hope it worked out.
"Thank you," Tony said to Bucky. "That helps a lot." He laced their fingers together. Then, very slowly, he lifted Bucky's other hand to the arc reactor. "We're in this together, yeah?"
"Yeah," Bucky said. "Just ... try not to rattle me, on a bad day. I would feel like a complete shit if I snapped and injured you."
"It's mutual. I'll be careful," Tony said. "But Bucky? I do lab work with Bruce. I guarantee, I have coped with far more epic freakouts than you could possibly manage, and lived to tell the tale."
That was true. Early on, Bruce had Hulked out in the lab a couple of times. Tony had, somehow, emerged from those incidents unsmashed. Of course, Tony probably hadn't been looking through a murk of flashbacks at the time. He was eerily unafraid of the Hulk from the moment they met.
"Speaking of Bruce, I'm sure he'd appreciate a permission list too," Phil said. "He needs to know what to do and what not to do."
"Include a checklist of stuff to make sure you're as comfortable as possible when your memory blanks out," Tony said to Bucky. "Then maybe Steve wouldn't be so inclined to bite Bruce's head off and spit down his neck."
Phil raised his eyebrows. "You weren't in the kitchen for that."
"Yeah, no, I have some safety protocols programmed into the automatic monitoring for the security feeds in the tower, so that JARVIS and I know if there's trouble. Steve's behavior raised a yellow flag there. I don't know what the fuck got into him or what his damage is, but I do not want that happening again if it can be avoided," Tony said. "I know Bucky and I redlined it, but we're jerks. Steve normally isn't. This concerns me."
"It worries me too," Phil said. "I promise to help keep an eye on Steve."
"I'll do my best with the permission lists," Bucky said. "JARVIS, assist. Can you help me decide what kind of stuff I need to include? I'm not sure I can figure this out by myself. I don't even know where to start looking."
"Of course, Bucky," said JARVIS. "I will search for instructions and samples for you to browse at your earliest convenience."
"Thanks," Bucky said. Then he turned his attention back to Tony. "Friends?"
"Sure," Tony said, and they shook on it.
"That's good," Phil said. "Are we agreed on the rules? No hitting, including physical punishments or threats thereof?"
"I guess. I don't know how I'm supposed to make anyone behave without it, though," Bucky said reluctantly.
"You aren't. I am," said Phil. "Though you're welcome to watch and learn how it's done, if you wish." He made a mental note to ask Steve what kind of discipline he'd gotten growing up. Steve probably wouldn't have survived typical punishment as a child, not with his weak body and especially not on top of the bullying, Phil thought. They must have figured out some kind of compromise. Maybe that would help Bucky understand the need for different methods here too.
Bucky hummed in consideration, then said, "I think I'd like to just ... watch, for a while. If you don't mind."
"That's fine," Phil said. "Tony? Try to be gentle with Bucky's authority, as long as he doesn't say mean things?"
"I can try," Tony said. "I don't know if it'll work. It took me months to get used to Steve that way."
"This isn't a race. It takes as long as it takes," Phil reminded them. "What matters is that you both try to work together and not hurt each other, or yourselves. Though you might consider that Steve and I have learned a lot about what works with you and what doesn't, so Bucky won't be working blind. I'll help as much as I can. I want you two to be able to get along."
"Okay," Tony and Bucky said.
Phil pulled them into a hug. "Good boys," he said, "both of you." They pressed themselves on either side of him. Tentatively Bucky and Tony reached out to each other, then let go again. It would take time for the bruised feelings to heal.
"All right, we're done here for now," said Phil. "Let's take a break from the heavy personal stuff for a while. Bucky, you may find that physical activity helps let off emotional pressure, if you spend a session in the gym. Tony, you should have plenty of time in the lab before supper. I'll be in my office doing paperwork if either of you need me."
Both of them readily agreed to the suggestions, disappearing in different directions.
Phil retreated to his own domain. He took out his lingering frustration on a hapless SHIELD agent who had gotten herself written up for somehow knocking over a water cooler and flooding a breakroom. Almost five gallons of water weighing forty-one pounds, not to mention the bottom-weighted and bolted-down cooler itself -- how did she even manage to topple that? Phil wondered as he filed the disciplinary paperwork. It's worse than when Clint first joined. At least he was mischievous rather than clumsy.
Then Phil glanced over her personnel file. Dr. Barbara Morse had been brought into SHIELD for her work in one of several projects trying to recreate the Super-Soldier Serum. Phil frowned over the discovery that she was among the people who had mishandled the Winter Soldier. One more complaint and she goes on probation, he reassured himself. That will limit how much damage she can do.
That settled Phil enough that he could focus on the everyday pile of mission proposals and reports, personnel reviews, and other tidbits. He noted with resignation that SHIELD's financial status continued to decline. So did its reputation among the shadow world of espionage and intrigue. Phil spent a significant portion of the afternoon reading Director Fury's rant about what could be done to fix this, and then trying to frame a response in more professional terms than "Quit acting like such a dick."
* * *
Notes:
There are few guarantees in life. Sometimes you just need to take a chance. Here are some good ways of taking chances.
Advance permissions for health care can range from casual private agreements to binding legal documents. The official stuff varies by state and country; here's an example from Massachusetts. Most of the resources focus on end of life care, but can be useful inspiration for other situations such as erratic mental state. Here's a tool kit.
Know the signs of verbal and emotional abuse. Understand the idea of bystander intervention and explore some sample scenarios. There are also more detailed steps for detection, assessment, and intervention. Tony and JARVIS have the tower security set up to recognize certain warning signs at varying levels of danger, so that an appropriate response can be made.
Family rules are an important part of a healthy household. This can pose a challenge for blended families, which may have different ideas of discipline. Reaffirming family rules is a good step in making up after fighting. You can see how Bucky and Tony are willing to try but somewhat dubious about certain things they don't fully understand yet. This helps Phil understand what needs further discussion later.
Positive discipline helps children develop self-control. Although some people are skeptical, it is an effective method for building trust and respect in family relationships.
"It takes as long as it takes" is a useful principle for developing patience. There are tips on how to cultivate patience and be patient with kids.
Dr. Barbara "Bobbi" Morse, aka Mockingbird, is a character from Marvel canon who has appeared in multiple variations.
"Don't be a dick" is good advice from Wil Wheaton. There are steps to stop acting like a dick. Director Fury's callous behavior erodes morale and discipline in SHIELD, making some agents less reliable, and the organization as a whole less effective and respected.
[To be continued in Part 28 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26. Skip to Part 29, Part 30, Part 31, Part 32.
"Hide and Seek" Part 27
Phil was reminded of Tony asking him to learn the code for JARVIS, and considering Bucky for that task as well. He thought, too, about selecting medical and other support staff for SHIELD. Sometimes you just had to take your best chance from the limited options you had available, and hope it worked out.
"Thank you," Tony said to Bucky. "That helps a lot." He laced their fingers together. Then, very slowly, he lifted Bucky's other hand to the arc reactor. "We're in this together, yeah?"
"Yeah," Bucky said. "Just ... try not to rattle me, on a bad day. I would feel like a complete shit if I snapped and injured you."
"It's mutual. I'll be careful," Tony said. "But Bucky? I do lab work with Bruce. I guarantee, I have coped with far more epic freakouts than you could possibly manage, and lived to tell the tale."
That was true. Early on, Bruce had Hulked out in the lab a couple of times. Tony had, somehow, emerged from those incidents unsmashed. Of course, Tony probably hadn't been looking through a murk of flashbacks at the time. He was eerily unafraid of the Hulk from the moment they met.
"Speaking of Bruce, I'm sure he'd appreciate a permission list too," Phil said. "He needs to know what to do and what not to do."
"Include a checklist of stuff to make sure you're as comfortable as possible when your memory blanks out," Tony said to Bucky. "Then maybe Steve wouldn't be so inclined to bite Bruce's head off and spit down his neck."
Phil raised his eyebrows. "You weren't in the kitchen for that."
"Yeah, no, I have some safety protocols programmed into the automatic monitoring for the security feeds in the tower, so that JARVIS and I know if there's trouble. Steve's behavior raised a yellow flag there. I don't know what the fuck got into him or what his damage is, but I do not want that happening again if it can be avoided," Tony said. "I know Bucky and I redlined it, but we're jerks. Steve normally isn't. This concerns me."
"It worries me too," Phil said. "I promise to help keep an eye on Steve."
"I'll do my best with the permission lists," Bucky said. "JARVIS, assist. Can you help me decide what kind of stuff I need to include? I'm not sure I can figure this out by myself. I don't even know where to start looking."
"Of course, Bucky," said JARVIS. "I will search for instructions and samples for you to browse at your earliest convenience."
"Thanks," Bucky said. Then he turned his attention back to Tony. "Friends?"
"Sure," Tony said, and they shook on it.
"That's good," Phil said. "Are we agreed on the rules? No hitting, including physical punishments or threats thereof?"
"I guess. I don't know how I'm supposed to make anyone behave without it, though," Bucky said reluctantly.
"You aren't. I am," said Phil. "Though you're welcome to watch and learn how it's done, if you wish." He made a mental note to ask Steve what kind of discipline he'd gotten growing up. Steve probably wouldn't have survived typical punishment as a child, not with his weak body and especially not on top of the bullying, Phil thought. They must have figured out some kind of compromise. Maybe that would help Bucky understand the need for different methods here too.
Bucky hummed in consideration, then said, "I think I'd like to just ... watch, for a while. If you don't mind."
"That's fine," Phil said. "Tony? Try to be gentle with Bucky's authority, as long as he doesn't say mean things?"
"I can try," Tony said. "I don't know if it'll work. It took me months to get used to Steve that way."
"This isn't a race. It takes as long as it takes," Phil reminded them. "What matters is that you both try to work together and not hurt each other, or yourselves. Though you might consider that Steve and I have learned a lot about what works with you and what doesn't, so Bucky won't be working blind. I'll help as much as I can. I want you two to be able to get along."
"Okay," Tony and Bucky said.
Phil pulled them into a hug. "Good boys," he said, "both of you." They pressed themselves on either side of him. Tentatively Bucky and Tony reached out to each other, then let go again. It would take time for the bruised feelings to heal.
"All right, we're done here for now," said Phil. "Let's take a break from the heavy personal stuff for a while. Bucky, you may find that physical activity helps let off emotional pressure, if you spend a session in the gym. Tony, you should have plenty of time in the lab before supper. I'll be in my office doing paperwork if either of you need me."
Both of them readily agreed to the suggestions, disappearing in different directions.
Phil retreated to his own domain. He took out his lingering frustration on a hapless SHIELD agent who had gotten herself written up for somehow knocking over a water cooler and flooding a breakroom. Almost five gallons of water weighing forty-one pounds, not to mention the bottom-weighted and bolted-down cooler itself -- how did she even manage to topple that? Phil wondered as he filed the disciplinary paperwork. It's worse than when Clint first joined. At least he was mischievous rather than clumsy.
Then Phil glanced over her personnel file. Dr. Barbara Morse had been brought into SHIELD for her work in one of several projects trying to recreate the Super-Soldier Serum. Phil frowned over the discovery that she was among the people who had mishandled the Winter Soldier. One more complaint and she goes on probation, he reassured himself. That will limit how much damage she can do.
That settled Phil enough that he could focus on the everyday pile of mission proposals and reports, personnel reviews, and other tidbits. He noted with resignation that SHIELD's financial status continued to decline. So did its reputation among the shadow world of espionage and intrigue. Phil spent a significant portion of the afternoon reading Director Fury's rant about what could be done to fix this, and then trying to frame a response in more professional terms than "Quit acting like such a dick."
* * *
Notes:
There are few guarantees in life. Sometimes you just need to take a chance. Here are some good ways of taking chances.
Advance permissions for health care can range from casual private agreements to binding legal documents. The official stuff varies by state and country; here's an example from Massachusetts. Most of the resources focus on end of life care, but can be useful inspiration for other situations such as erratic mental state. Here's a tool kit.
Know the signs of verbal and emotional abuse. Understand the idea of bystander intervention and explore some sample scenarios. There are also more detailed steps for detection, assessment, and intervention. Tony and JARVIS have the tower security set up to recognize certain warning signs at varying levels of danger, so that an appropriate response can be made.
Family rules are an important part of a healthy household. This can pose a challenge for blended families, which may have different ideas of discipline. Reaffirming family rules is a good step in making up after fighting. You can see how Bucky and Tony are willing to try but somewhat dubious about certain things they don't fully understand yet. This helps Phil understand what needs further discussion later.
Positive discipline helps children develop self-control. Although some people are skeptical, it is an effective method for building trust and respect in family relationships.
"It takes as long as it takes" is a useful principle for developing patience. There are tips on how to cultivate patience and be patient with kids.
Dr. Barbara "Bobbi" Morse, aka Mockingbird, is a character from Marvel canon who has appeared in multiple variations.
"Don't be a dick" is good advice from Wil Wheaton. There are steps to stop acting like a dick. Director Fury's callous behavior erodes morale and discipline in SHIELD, making some agents less reliable, and the organization as a whole less effective and respected.
[To be continued in Part 28 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-11 07:19 am (UTC)Hulk is a good judge of character.
He made a mental note to ask Steve what kind of discipline he'd gotten growing up.
Looking forward to hearing about this, and about Bucky going to church.
Dr. Barbara Morse had been brought into SHIELD for her work in one of several projects trying to recreate the Super-Soldier Serum.
As a test subject?
I don't know what the fuck got into him or what his damage is,
Remember when Tony downplayed the possibility of the tesseractish power source being a problem because you'd have to be touching Bucky for it to affect you? Remember how Steve was cuddling Bucky right then? Remember how they went straight to cuddling Bucky as soon as they could? LOL.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-11 07:40 am (UTC)Yes, he is. Hulk is an emotional genius.
Huh, and Tony somehow figured that out from whatever he'd seen of Hulk, which couldn't have been very flattering at that stage. Tony's not good at reading emotions. So I'm guessing he either analyzed Hulk's fighting style -- which is more defensive than offensive -- or figured that since Bruce is a genius then Hulk must be too.
>> Looking forward to hearing about this, and about Bucky going to church. <<
The discussions of discipline do appear later in this story.
The spiritual aspects are slower to develop, intended for later use in the series. Jumping a 70-year gap makes it really hard to find a church that would be a comfortable fit for Steve and Bucky -- and most of the ones that might, won't have much if any online presence, which makes them all but invisible to JARVIS.
>> As a test subject? <<
No, as a researcher, somewhat like Bruce was doing.
>> Remember when Tony downplayed the possibility of the tesseractish power source being a problem because you'd have to be touching Bucky for it to affect you? Remember how Steve was cuddling Bucky right then? <<
Yes, exactly -- and that was after sharing a bed.
>> Remember how they went straight to cuddling Bucky as soon as they could? LOL. <<
Yep. Tony and Bucky cuddled for hours. Later that day, Tony's personality melted down.
They haven't quite figured out all of this yet, but the evidence is piling up.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-11 06:16 pm (UTC)I was going to point out how strongly the close juxtaposition implies that she's super-strong and doesn't know her own strength, because I was thinking you hadn't picked up on that. Then I noticed just which researcher you compared her to. Carry on, then. I'll just be over here with my possibly-non-crackpot (?) theories.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-12 06:42 pm (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-07-13 03:15 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-11 03:07 pm (UTC)how did she even manage to topple that? Hey, us clumsy people are talented like that! A few years ago, I broke my ankle by...walking. On smooth, dry pavement. Wearing sneakers. I'm sure glad Phil wasn't around to write me up for it!
Steve probably wouldn't have survived typical punishment as a child, How sick was your kid!Steve? 'Cause he survived bullying (as you noted), and also U.S. Army bootcamp. (I know bootcamp was later, of course; I'm just noting another physically-dificult thing Steve overcame despite his illnesses.) It'd take one hell of a beating to kill a kid who wasn't at Death's door to start out, and since you've established that Steve had a pretty decent parent/caregiver experience, I assume that kind of outright abuse is off the table. I'm just having trouble imagining the kinda-weak-and-prone-to-illness-but-still-scrappy-and-not-letting-anything-slow-him-down kid I pictured actually dying from a "typical" spanking/paddling/switching/whatever.
Meg
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-11 03:09 pm (UTC)Meg
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-14 06:36 am (UTC)Yes. More of this will unfold throughout this story. Some of it extends later in the series.
>> Hey, us clumsy people are talented like that! A few years ago, I broke my ankle by...walking. On smooth, dry pavement. Wearing sneakers. <<
Wow. That's impressive.
>> I'm sure glad Phil wasn't around to write me up for it! <<
My suspicion is that it wasn't a purely blameless accident -- that she was either ignoring a warning, or horsing around in some fashion, which people sometimes do while gossiping around a water cooler.
As opposed to Clint balancing a bucket of water over a door or shooting people with rubber bands from the air vents.
>> How sick was your kid!Steve? <<
Moderately. Canon establishes that he has asthma and some unspecified bunch of other problems enough to disqualify him from the military. It's fairly common for allergies and asthma to be worse in childhood and get somewhat better with age. So I figure that Steve was more delicate the younger he was, and gained a modest amount of toughness growing up. He would also have learned how to avoid triggering some problems.
>> 'Cause he survived bullying (as you noted), and also U.S. Army bootcamp. (I know bootcamp was later, of course; I'm just noting another physically-dificult thing Steve overcame despite his illnesses.) <<
Steve had Bucky to run off the bullies, not every time, but often enough to piss him off and help keep him alive. He had about two weeks of boot camp, not the whole training he was owed; and he barely made it even that far. We can count those points as his maximum adult capacity pre-Serum. As a child his tolerances would necessarily have been lower, although people vary as to how much lower they estimate that to be.
>> It'd take one hell of a beating to kill a kid who wasn't at Death's door to start out, <<
Not really. You can kill an infant or toddler just by shaking him, not even all that hard. Older children also die from abuse. Head injuries very easily get out of hand, although that's not the sort of thing I'm positing as the problem here.
Furthermore, consider that Steve was never healthy. He got by. He did that by using most of his physical energy and his incredible will just to stay alive. That doesn't leave much for fault tolerance in the face of additional illness or injury. He survived by luck, stubbornness, and what help people could give him; that doesn't mean he never came close to dying anyhow.
>> and since you've established that Steve had a pretty decent parent/caregiver experience, I assume that kind of outright abuse is off the table. <<
There's a lot that was considered discipline then, that would be considered outright abuse now. Hence the problem Bucky is having as he tries to bridge that 70-year gap.
>> I'm just having trouble imagining the kinda-weak-and-prone-to-illness-but-still-scrappy-and-not-letting-anything-slow-him-down kid I pictured actually dying from a "typical" spanking/paddling/switching/whatever. <<
In this case it depends on what and where, more than the force alone. I go into some detail on this in a later chapter when Phil and Steve are talking about discipline vs. abuse.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-15 01:25 am (UTC)This basically matches up with my impression.
>>Not really. You can kill an infant or toddler just by shaking him, not even all that hard. Older children also die from abuse. Head injuries very easily get out of hand, although that's not the sort of thing I'm positing as the problem here.<<
And this is a fair point well-made. I certainly wasn't trying to say that children don't die from abuse, even so-called "minor" abuse--it happens all too frequently.
>>Furthermore, consider that Steve was never healthy. He got by. He did that by using most of his physical energy and his incredible will just to stay alive. That doesn't leave much for fault tolerance in the face of additional illness or injury. He survived by luck, stubbornness, and what help people could give him; that doesn't mean he never came close to dying anyhow.<<
I think this is where we come apart. Absolutely, Steve was never healthy. But he also wasn't bedridden, at least most of the time. He ran around Brooklyn getting into fights. He went on the rides at Coney Island and threw up on Bucky. He and Bucky helped the neighborhood mechanic fix up engines. (Just to pick a few of the things you've mentioned in the stories.) I csn't see any reasonable (i.e. non-abusive) physical punishment that would require more physical energy than this kind of "everyday" stuff, even by the harsher standards of the 20s/30s. The idea that Steve had a lower "fault tolerance" than most makes sense, but if he had enough of one to deal these other draining activities, why wouldn't he have enough to deal with a punishment?
(I can definitely imagine moments in Steve's life where a punishment could have killed him--in the middle/aftermath of an asthma attack, for example. But smacking a kid in the middle of an asthma attack is so obviously abuse that it doesn't fit the "Steve had pretty decent caregivers" scenario that you've set up.)
My guess is that we have different ideas about what standard punishments looked like in 20s/30s. (Or just about the "severity" of physical punishments in general. As established in the comments a few chapters back, I actually preferred a spanking to other options as a kid, so I might be underplaying its impact for "normal" children :D) Or maybe I've been too quick to take Steve and Bucky at their word that they weren't raised in an abusive environment, and I'll be shocked at what they considered normal. I'm just not seeing it yet.
>>In this case it depends on what and where, more than the force alone. I go into some detail on this in a later chapter when Phil and Steve are talking about discipline vs. abuse.<<
True enough, and I'll be interested to read the discussion. And on that note, I'm not really trying to defend corporal punishment here--despite my own experience, I think there's generally better options for discipline. I'm just trying to map that discipline-vs-abuse line myself.
Meg
PS. I'm re-reading "No Winter Lasts Forever", and I now have ~theories~ about Dr. Bobbi Morse. Are we going to meet her?
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-15 03:49 am (UTC)I don't write him that way. I have read him written that way, quite well sometimes.
I write him with variable limitation. Variable is HELL. You can learn to compensate for it, some, but there's always the temptation to push your limits. Sometimes you get away with it. Sometimes you get sick as a dog, ruin the day, and everyone hates you. And you often don't know in advance what will happen each time you push, or someone else pushes you.
I figure that what helped Steve survive was that he learned some ways to with, or around, his limits and that he had some support from other people. He would have expected that he could never get a "proper" job so he would've done other things instead. That's one reason why, for instance, he can cook.
>> He ran around Brooklyn getting into fights. He went on the rides at Coney Island and threw up on Bucky. He and Bucky helped the neighborhood mechanic fix up engines. (Just to pick a few of the things you've mentioned in the stories.) <<
And on the good days, he could get away with those things, sort of. On a bad day, he'd wind up wheezing and blue, or worse. Throwing up at Coney Island was actually a terrific example of Steve going over the line and paying the price.
Part of high school, I had two close friends with asthma, plus my own body's quirks. We saw more of our fair share of days ruined by somebody's meat malfunctions. It didn't stop us from having adventures, but it sure complicated life sometimes. And a couple times I had to shout a gym teacher down from maybe killing my friends, because she wouldn't stop trying to make them move DURING an asthma attack AFTER having needed an inhaler.
>> I can't see any reasonable (i.e. non-abusive) physical punishment that would require more physical energy than this kind of "everyday" stuff, even by the harsher standards of the 20s/30s. <<
Eh ... the example I'm using is on par with what I've seen on occasion and read about. It is considerably less than the worst examples I've heard from family history circa that period, which were apparently considered unremarkable at the time.
>> The idea that Steve had a lower "fault tolerance" than most makes sense, but if he had enough of one to deal these other draining activities, why wouldn't he have enough to deal with a punishment? <<
Because some conditions, of which asthma is one, aren't consistent in effect. Triggers stack. What could be tolerable on a warm day of moderate humidity could be intolerable on a cold windy day or a sweltering muggy day or while Steve had a sore throat he hadn't mentioned or on top of last week's beating from the bullies or what-all else.
I actually put the stack effect into another poem, "Weaving Damask." That stack is stress + yelling + dust. Different people have different triggers. I'm pretty sure stress -- a very common one for asthma -- isn't one of Steve's primary triggers. Exertion probably is: if he started to wheeze during a fight, that's a likely reason why he usually lost. He's smart enough that otherwise he could probably have figured out how to do better.
>> (I can definitely imagine moments in Steve's life where a punishment could have killed him--in the middle/aftermath of an asthma attack, for example. But smacking a kid in the middle of an asthma attack is so obviously abuse that it doesn't fit the "Steve had pretty decent caregivers" scenario that you've set up.) <<
You're on the right track there; it's an example of variable tolerance. How forthcoming do you think Steve was about his condition? When any admission of weakness would sound like trying to weasel out of punishment? This is the guy who said "I can do this all day."
>> My guess is that we have different ideas about what standard punishments looked like in 20s/30s. <<
I'm not sure what the average was. I am sure that the top of what was considered acceptable was a great deal higher than now, and that the average was at least somewhat higher.
>> (Or just about the "severity" of physical punishments in general. As established in the comments a few chapters back, I actually preferred a spanking to other options as a kid, so I might be underplaying its impact for "normal" children :D) <<
Ohhh, yeah: that makes a huge difference. For some people, spanking is tolerable or even pleasurable. (Childhood spankings are a common way for kinkyfolk to realize they are kinky.) For other people, it causes a level of physical or emotional overload that is difficult or impossible to process. Most are in between, finding it unpleasant but not decompensating.
Consider also some typical effects of pain. Most people want to hold their breath, or cry, and crying tends to boost mucus flow. These are bad things to combine with asthma. For most people it won't trigger an attack every time, but it's still a risk.
>> Or maybe I've been too quick to take Steve and Bucky at their word that they weren't raised in an abusive environment, and I'll be shocked at what they considered normal. I'm just not seeing it yet. <<
That's possible. They are, naturally, going to judge what happened in their own time by the standards of that day more often than by modern standards.
>> True enough, and I'll be interested to read the discussion. And on that note, I'm not really trying to defend corporal punishment here--despite my own experience, I think there's generally better options for discipline. I'm just trying to map that discipline-vs-abuse line myself. <<
There are some differences between even harsh punishment and outright abuse. Brian Banner was a violent abuser who nearly beat his son to death and did murder his wife. Howard Stark was sometimes drunk out of what was left of his mind. Clint's family background is described as abusive too.
Conversely, what Steve and Bucky dealt with was physical, but it wasn't random. There were clear rules, and children got punished for breaking the rules. Which Steve wasn't inclined to do a whole lot, just occasionally. It wasn't done out of malice, sadism, or drunkenness. Usually not even out of anger. Corporal punishment also wouldn't have been the only option, just a forceful option -- there would have been other things like lectures and extra chores. (Bucky does remember those. He just doesn't consider them sufficient, because people can be stubborn.)
Those are important differences because the erratic, unpredictable nature of abuse is part of what does the worst damage to children. They can't avoid it by being good; even if there are supposedly rules, the enforcement is unpredictable and/or the rules are impossible to follow. With strict discipline, children can to some extent choose to obey or rebel, and thereby influence what happens. The difference between reasonable discipline, harsh punishment, and outright abuse is complex. Individuals and cultures draw the lines in different places.
>> PS. I'm re-reading "No Winter Lasts Forever", and I now have ~theories~ about Dr. Bobbi Morse. Are we going to meet her? <<
I would like to bring her onscreen, if I have time to carry the series that far. I have specific plans in mind. Feel free to theorize, though; sometimes I weave in reader suggestions if they're compatible.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-15 05:27 am (UTC)That's what I was missing! In my brain, it was definitely, "Get in a fight, and a week later go to Coney Island, and a couple weeks after that get a punishment". Separate incidents that Steve could "recover" from before moving on to the next. Not, "Go to Coney Island, get in a fight on the way home, then get punished for skipping class to go to Coney Island". All together and building on each other. And yeah, it also makes sense that "I can do this all day" Steve would see it as cowardly to bring it up in the moment, and push beyond his tolerances because of that.
Thank you--I really appreciate the detailed explanation.
>>And a couple times I had to shout a gym teacher down from maybe killing my friends, because she wouldn't stop trying to make them move DURING an asthma attack AFTER having needed an inhaler.<<
Wow, that's...just incredibly terrible. I can't imagine what she was thinking. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
>>The difference between reasonable discipline, harsh punishment, and outright abuse is complex. Individuals and cultures draw the lines in different places.<<
And I think that's what is so frustrating to me: it really seems like we should be able to set clear lines for something as critical as child abuse. I don't like an answer of, "Maybe it was acceptable then, but it's not anymore" or "In some circumstances it's okay, but not in others". There's too much depending on people getting this right to have "shades of gray", and yet that's what we're left with. (Being fair, I'd really prefer black-and-white answers to everything. I just usually acknowledge that I'm not going to get them.)
Bobbi: Really, it wasn't anything big. Phil mentioned that she was one of the people working in SHIELD medical when Bucky was there. I was thinking about the anonymous text that told Phil to get Bucky out of there, and wondering if Bobbi was the one who sent it.
Meg
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-15 06:48 am (UTC)Yay! I'm glad we found it.
>> In my brain, it was definitely, "Get in a fight, and a week later go to Coney Island, and a couple weeks after that get a punishment". Separate incidents that Steve could "recover" from before moving on to the next. Not, "Go to Coney Island, get in a fight on the way home, then get punished for skipping class to go to Coney Island". All together and building on each other. <<
It's an easy thing to miss, and a challenging lesson to learn for anyone with a variable limitation.
You want another example of stacking? It underlies most of the really bad blowups in the tower with PTSD triggers and related complications. For instance, Tony first had to deal with checking Bucky's equipment when Bucky wasn't in a state to give informed consent, then exposed his private toolshed, was in contact with Bucky's energy source for hours = exhausted Tony. Then it was car trunk, sleep inertia, Bucky's anger, the yelling, flashbacks = Tony losing his shit.
Most people can deal with one or two stressors without losing functionality. Even a healthy person tends to wobble around number three. Someone who's dealing with a constant strain from PTSD or something else tends to have a lower threshold. But it's still variable. They might get as far as handling three triggers one day, but buckle under the first another day. The important thing to remember is that every stressor raises the odds of something going wrong.
>> And yeah, it also makes sense that "I can do this all day" Steve would see it as cowardly to bring it up in the moment, and push beyond his tolerances because of that. <<
Sooth. Phil is still trying to teach the Avengers to be accurate and honest about assessing their needs and resources.
>> Thank you--I really appreciate the detailed explanation. <<
*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.
>> Wow, that's...just incredibly terrible. I can't imagine what she was thinking. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. <<
She had a bizarrely distorted idea of the quality of her exercise program, which had won an award. It did significant damage to my knees and back, only some of which was reversible. But the program wasn't obviously dangerous at first glance. It just made people's bodies go wrong, after a while, in a bunch of different ways. After the first few serious problems, I got downright ferocious about interfering in things I could tell were causing harm.
I never met a PE teacher who wasn't a malicious sadist, but she was definitely the most destructive.
>> And I think that's what is so frustrating to me: it really seems like we should be able to set clear lines for something as critical as child abuse. <<
Some of my guidelines include:
* Discipline has rules that everyone knows, which are consistently enforced.
* Discipline is done to shape behavior, not out of malice, uncontrollable rage, intoxication, etc.
* If it requires medical treatment, it's abuse.
* If it does lasting damage, physical or emotional, it's abuse.
* If it's deliberately meant to harm, it's abuse.
>> I don't like an answer of, "Maybe it was acceptable then, but it's not anymore" or "In some circumstances it's okay, but not in others". There's too much depending on people getting this right to have "shades of gray", and yet that's what we're left with. <<
Well, hopefully we learn better over time! It's not acceptable to own slaves anymore either. And what works great for one child's personality and body may be disastrous for another. For me, logic worked from a very young age, and almost nothing else would; but that's downright weird. Most kids really don't do logic like that.
>> (Being fair, I'd really prefer black-and-white answers to everything. I just usually acknowledge that I'm not going to get them.) <<
Some things are black or white, but it's rare in a technicolor world.
>> Bobbi: Really, it wasn't anything big. Phil mentioned that she was one of the people working in SHIELD medical when Bucky was there. I was thinking about the anonymous text that told Phil to get Bucky out of there, and wondering if Bobbi was the one who sent it. <<
Eh, no, that's not the direction I'm going with this. But I would like to find someone to tie that to. It's just hard to find a comprehensive list of SHIELD characters. There is a list, but it only has a few names on it; I keep running into totally different characters elsewhere.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-12 10:44 pm (UTC)Caroline
You're welcome!
Date: 2013-10-14 06:21 am (UTC)Quickie bug report
Date: 2013-10-14 03:49 am (UTC)Right now there's no link in the Chap 26 post to this post (so I didn't know it had a new chapter until I reloaded your journal's top page and scrolled through).
I don't know how everyone else is following the story, but I bookmark the last one I've read and (when that's the latest installment) check it every couple of days to see if there's a new part yet ...
Re: Quickie bug report
Date: 2013-10-14 04:07 am (UTC)In Chapter 26, the link to Chapter 27 appears at the bottom, where the next chapter link always does. It's working for me. The links at the top are to previous chapters.
I haven't posted what will be the Monday chapter yet, but check back in 2-3 hours and that should be up. This story customarily updates Monday-Wednesday-Friday but I try to make the posts after midnight the night before. That way if the connection is down, I have the next day to catch up.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-14 10:40 am (UTC)SO when Bucky was a kid taking care of younger kids, did he really use physcal discipline so much that he has no other strategy?
Does that mean he spanked Steve when he was out of line? (Or, more likely, taking stupid risks that could get him killed because of what he thought was right.)
"That's fine," Phil said. "Tony? Try to be gentle with Bucky's authority, as long as he doesn't say mean things?"
But...but...but... acting out against authority is
the whole pointan important part of what game night is FOR for Tony! If he always has to be good to avoid hitting Bucky's triggers, when will he get to act out and still feel safe?(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-14 11:23 am (UTC)Now Steve, he probably used emotional/logical persuasion, because he knows Steve's buttons. Reminding him that the nuns are going to have to repair torn/bloodied clothes, and this means whoever gets the clothes after Steve won't have as nice things as Steve had gotten...
It probably got Steve learning how to help with the mending. (And Bucky was desperately waiting to pull that out to tell Steve's fiancee, that she's a lucky woman to be getting a good housewife.)
Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-17 01:15 am (UTC)>>Even if you don't use physical discipline, that you've been deputized with it does make kids allow authority. Which doesn't mean they won't misbehave.<<
It depends on the kids, really. I never considered authority-by-age to be something that could be delegated, so I refused to acknowledge that anyone below adult age had any authority. But most kids are peer-oriented and readily accept guidance from older children.
>> In Bucky's day not being permitted to use discipline would make things untenable-responsibility without any authority. <<
I agree, and that's exactly what Bucky is afraid of here. He doesn't feel comfortable; he feels like someone is taking the best tool out of his box. (He doesn't realize that it is actually a crappy tool.) Bucky said something along these lines when talking with Phil and Tony, although not quite so explicit.
>> Now Steve, he probably used emotional/logical persuasion, because he knows Steve's buttons. Reminding him that the nuns are going to have to repair torn/bloodied clothes, and this means whoever gets the clothes after Steve won't have as nice things as Steve had gotten... <<
Bullseye. Because Bucky had such a strong role in raising Steve, he knows where the buttons are, because some of them are ones he put there in the first place. Steve is very duty-oriented. A smack on the butt wouldn't faze him, but the right kind of scolding would crumple him like tinfoil. Steve can be an utterly immovable object when he's in the right, but when he's wrong and knows it, he's got no traction.
>>It probably got Steve learning how to help with the mending. (And Bucky was desperately waiting to pull that out to tell Steve's fiancee, that she's a lucky woman to be getting a good housewife.)<<
I love these ideas so much.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-23 02:43 pm (UTC)Part of it was it was still almost a tool being used on adults at the time, though mostly in the 'three extra laps' sense than caning. Actually, a lot of the verbal abuse that comes later bears similarities to the boot camp 'recalibration' put downs.
(I seem to recall that they've had to start changing the induction techniques because the recruits are mostly too sensitized as well as in poorer physical condition. This isn't about nambly-pamby, but that they've got people that have been already treated worse than a drill sarge generally and don't have anything to fall back on so they shatter. It's like immunizing a population that's been eating horsemeat because the cows are all dead. Funny how this isn't what gets talked about when 'volunteer army' is the rhetorical thread.)
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-24 10:34 pm (UTC)Yes, that's true. Extra physical effort works just fine as a discipline method for the team members who are comfortable with military life. To Bucky, Steve, and Clint it's familiar, reasonable, and safe.
>>Actually, a lot of the verbal abuse that comes later bears similarities to the boot camp 'recalibration' put downs.<<
True, and that's another form of brainwashing. Destroy the individual, then build a soldier on the leveled ground.
>>I seem to recall that they've had to start changing the induction techniques because the recruits are mostly too sensitized as well as in poorer physical condition.<<
That makes sense.
>>Funny how this isn't what gets talked about when 'volunteer army' is the rhetorical thread.<<
True. Thing is, volunteers tend to outperform conscripts, because they choose to be there. The plummeting health is a separate issue, brought on by poor social engineering and a fraying safety net.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-25 03:45 am (UTC)Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-25 03:53 am (UTC)I agree that pressuring people into the military by lack of other prospects is wrong and destructive. (Much the same as with prostitution, in fact.) Aside from the moral issues, it also yields poor-quality recruits.
However, even poverty-driven "volunteers" are likely to believe they're present out of choice. This gives an advantage over people who are forced; that's just slavery under another name.
>> Of course, some of those places have so much not kept up the military might not keep taking their kids (unless they're doing better about not having arrest records.) <<
True. The warmongers have done a better job of cutting their own legs out from under themselves than the peace activists have. By the time you add up needless wars, erratic supplies, and wretched veteran support -- the generational families are telling their younger generations not to enlist. That's not just a red light on the dash; that's black smoke pouring out from the hood.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-25 01:32 pm (UTC)The warmongers have cut off the legs of their supply line. In addition to what they've done to the military, they've done to the nation's infrastructure. I'd like to find some bit of clear cut forest and simulate one of Washington's roads for these small government people. You know, with the stumps nearly as high as a wagon's axle and subject to erosion to sink the ruts down. Let them see how their business does with cartering over that.
We're probably back at the nadir of the 1970s, when poor leadership, mission Creeps and heroin had hashed the military.
Implementation of the safety net was half-hearted at best, often out of razor-wire and improperly tensioned.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-26 04:56 am (UTC)Point. If the population isn't robust, then the nation is vulnerable.
>> The warmongers have cut off the legs of their supply line. In addition to what they've done to the military, they've done to the nation's infrastructure. <<
Yes, I'm very worried about that, because without necessary maintenance a lot of it is going to crumble at once -- probably faster than it can be fixed.
>> I'd like to find some bit of clear cut forest and simulate one of Washington's roads for these small government people. You know, with the stumps nearly as high as a wagon's axle and subject to erosion to sink the ruts down. Let them see how their business does with cartering over that. <<
Heh. Yeah.
Government is for doing things that need to be done, that individuals can't do. Big projects like highways and space programs. It's also supposed to be a safety net. It's NOT supposed to strangle people.
*sigh* Not doing so hot, right now.
>>We're probably back at the nadir of the 1970s, when poor leadership, mission Creeps and heroin had hashed the military.<<
Sadly so. *chuckle* Tony would drive me up a wall, but I could fix half of what's wrong with Steve in half an hour.
I once completely freaked out a couple of elderly veterans by diving into their conversation about "... and what are we going to do with all the new vets that the VA isn't taking care of?" I'd forgotten what I looked like, I was used to talking about stuff like that with my grandfather, and the gender and generational shear threw them for a loop. Pause. And then they picked right up again, and we talked over what kinds of things might be done about it and who was working on which.
>>Implementation of the safety net was half-hearted at best, often out of razor-wire and improperly tensioned.<<
That's what happens when people do things for the wrong reasons, or without believing in what they do. You get a half-assed job, and they will quit on you as soon as they find a way. You have to convince them it's the best plan, and for that, you need to show what's in it for them.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-16 09:04 am (UTC)Bucky has other strategies, and has used things like scolding or instructing with the team. But he relies on being able to use the big stick if the other options don't work. He has nowhere near the amount of positive tools and experiences that Phil does. Bucky has also seen how wild and headstrong Tony is and how little sense of self-preservation he has. This leaves Bucky feeling disarmed and uneasy.
>> Does that mean he spanked Steve when he was out of line? (Or, more likely, taking stupid risks that could get him killed because of what he thought was right.) <<
As Bucky pointed out with Tony, he probably wouldn't have gone farther than a smack or two with his hand. Consider Steve's former fragility, strong moral sense, and stupidly high pain tolerance. Smacking him would've been at least a little risky and probably not very effective. Scolding would have made him feel horrible, a far more effective approach.
>> But...but...but... acting out against authority is
the whole pointan important part of what game night is FOR for Tony! If he always has to be good to avoid hitting Bucky's triggers, when will he get to act out and still feel safe? <<Never getting to act out would be bad for Tony. That's not necessarily required to be a direct conflict with Bucky. There are things Tony could be doing other than attacking Bucky's authority -- which Bucky needs to be more gentle with applying, too. It's something they'll have to work out together.
Also consider that while safe misbehavior is one of Tony's leading needs, it isn't the only one. He doesn't necessarily have to get all his needs met by the same person, nor try to have all needs apply to every person. It's possible to diversify. Consider that Tony has accepted Steve both as an older Little and as team leader -- but doesn't relate to Steve quite the same way as to Uncle Phil. In order to work this out with Bucky, Tony will need to make a similar adjustment and figure out how to fit the two of them together effectively. Conversely, Bucky needs to learn how not to squeeze too hard with Tony.
Finally, Phil and Tony will be talking a whole lot about Tony's needs and how to meet them. There are things Tony could've been doing that he hasn't, and that has contributed to this whole mess.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-16 07:59 am (UTC)*flies into the sun* squeeeeeeeee!!!
all of this is so amazing, but that last line just punched it through the roof.
Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-16 08:26 am (UTC)all of this is so amazing, but that last line just punched it through the roof. <<
I'm glad that you enjoyed this so much.
Fury has a lot of power. It can protect him from most political or legal consequences. It cannot protect against natural consequences, such as the erosion of morale caused by callous behavior, or the fact that people tend to dislike and distrust a lying liar who lies out his lying lie-hole.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-16 10:26 am (UTC)I started really relating to bucky ages and ages ago, but in the last four weeks I've started seeing a trauma therapist rather than a CBT guy, who over a year, didn't really work out for me. The new shrink and I seem to really click, and she's very helpful, but because of the sessions I'm having all these repressed memories just come breaking through the walls I built around them at really inappropriate times! I didn't know how to handle that kind of thing, how to deal with a reaction like that.
The tips about a safety plan and having an escape or friend there for you were very soothing, in a way. because 1) i'm not alone! 2) There are solutions. 3) That's solutions, plural! Not just one, and if it doesn't work, I'm boned. there are multiple things to try. 4) some of them I can do independently and some with support network people, be they friends, family, or shrink.
You really do a wonderful job of introducing your readers to content that is thought provoking, helpful, inspiring, sometimes saddening but always ALWAYS contextually appropriate... just... four for you glen coco!
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-26 03:16 am (UTC)*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.
>> I started really relating to bucky ages and ages ago, <<
I'm glad you find so much resonance there.
>> but in the last four weeks I've started seeing a trauma therapist rather than a CBT guy, who over a year, didn't really work out for me. The new shrink and I seem to really click, and she's very helpful, but because of the sessions I'm having all these repressed memories just come breaking through the walls I built around them at really inappropriate times! <<
Cognitive-behavioral therapy is about fixing warped thought patterns. It's not much use for fixing emotional issues, because thoughts aren't feelings. There are different techniques for working on emotion-based difficulties. I'm glad the trauma therapist is helping more.
>> I didn't know how to handle that kind of thing, how to deal with a reaction like that. <<
It's hard to deal with unexpected memories pouncing on you. If you can teach them to come when called, and you give them a regular opportunity, then they're less likely to jump out of nowhere at inconvenient times. That can clear out the random ones. It won't stop the ones pulled up by triggers, but that at least cuts down the frequency to something more manageable. I think some of the Bucky links relating to movie night dealt with deliberate memory work, using things like meditation or movies to bring up memories to deal with.
>> The tips about a safety plan and having an escape or friend there for you were very soothing, in a way. <<
I'm so glad to hear that.
>> because 1) i'm not alone! <<
Whatever you're going through, chances are, other people have been there too.
>> 2) There are solutions. 3) That's solutions, plural! Not just one, and if it doesn't work, I'm boned. there are multiple things to try. <<
It's vitally important to have a sequence of things to try. That's why there are big long lists of coping skills and crisis-handling steps. You can pick and choose what seems likely to work for you.
Bucky didn't even get all the way through his (leave the room) and was able to take comfort in other people. Doesn't always work for him, but sometimes it does.
>> 4) some of them I can do independently and some with support network people, be they friends, family, or shrink. <<
This is something that Tony will be working through for a while, exploring different methods for when he's alone or in company.
>> You really do a wonderful job of introducing your readers to content that is thought provoking, helpful, inspiring, sometimes saddening but always ALWAYS contextually appropriate... just... four for you glen coco! <<
Yay! That's what I aim for.
Disciplinary note
Date: 2024-02-01 05:07 pm (UTC)