Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 32
Oct. 23rd, 2013 12:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28, Part 29, Part 30, Part 31. Skip to Part 34, Part 35, Part 36, Part 37.
"Hide and Seek" Part 32
"Self-disclosure is a valid technique for building trust or repairing relationships after a breach," Phil said carefully, "but it also has drawbacks, as you've seen. For one thing, it needs to go both ways or it tends to unbalance the connection. For another, going too far too fast can cause problems."
"Like overdriving your headlights," Tony said.
"That's one way to look at it, yes," Phil said. "I think you might benefit from exploring additional ways to make up for mistakes. What about physical intimacy instead of emotional intimacy? That can provide an effective way to reconnect with someone."
"Sex isn't intimate."
Oh, Tony, Phil thought. He gave Tony's hand a compassionate squeeze.
"Besides, I don't want to have sex with my teammates. They're family, not groupies or fuckbuddies. They're important," Tony said.
Phil wondered if that distinction had also contributed to the breakup of Tony and Pepper as a romantic couple. Aloud he said, "I meant something like cuddling or massage, not sex. Affectionate touch can take many forms."
"Bucky and I do that too," Tony said, lifting a hand to where the arc reactor shone faintly through his shirt. "He's really gentle with me. Well, most of the time -- that's why the garage fight caught me off-guard so much, I wasn't expecting him to turn on me like that. It upset me more than I thought it could."
"You two seem to have a complicated relationship," Phil observed. "I think Bucky feels the same way about you. Usually you handle him with care, so the threats and shoving hit him a lot harder. How do you feel about it?"
"There's this ... " Tony's hand fluttered over his chest. " ... this thing between us, and I don't know what it is or what to do with it, really. It pulls. Only sometimes it pushes instead, and that hurts like fuck."
"I've noticed that pattern too," Phil said.
"Bucky would have run from me, down in the garage, if you hadn't held onto him," Tony said. "I didn't mean to be so nasty, I just ... have these problems with authority, and if people squeeze too hard, then I fight back."
"It makes you feel like you can't breathe," Phil guessed.
Tony coughed, then rubbed around the rim of the arc reactor. "That. Yes."
"You're learning to mind me," Phil observed. "You do quite well following Captain America in battle."
"That's different," Tony said. He flitted away from Phil again. "You two don't try to jerk me around anymore. You're the only ones who ever stopped doing that, and I don't know why."
"Steve and I both realized, in different ways, that what we started out doing with you just wasn't working," Phil said. "By then we cared enough about you that we didn't want to keep hurting you, so we tried out various other techniques until we found some that worked. Not everyone can adjust their leadership approach like that."
"Tell me about it," Tony grumbled. He fiddled with the paperweights on the coffee table, lining them up, then pushing them apart again.
"I think it's a matter of style," Phil said. "We need to find better ways for you and Bucky to work together."
"I don't know if I can," Tony said. "In the field, Cap just aims my skills. He's good at deploying the team effectively, okay, I get that now. On game nights I can play with Steve because he doesn't act like he's in charge, just ... more experienced ... and even that took me a while to get used to, because of the history. Bucky, though, sometimes he acts like he's the boss. When we're on equal footing, I can deal with him, but when he tries to push me around I just snap."
"Mmm ... that is a problem. I'll watch for it," Phil said. "Sometimes you do all right with Bucky, though. I've seen you looking up to him in certain ways. Do you think you can give him some time to learn better?"
"I can try," Tony said. "Guess I owe him that after the shitty way I treated him in the garage."
"Be gentle with yourself too," Phil reminded him. "I know you can."
"That's just it. You're the only one who makes me feel ..." Tony said, his voice wavering. He patted the air with his hands. "I don't know. Like I can give you this part of me for a while -- the strong part, the in charge part -- and you'll hold it for me without dropping it. Without breaking it. I get so tired of trying to hold everything together myself, and with you I don't have to."
"Tony, it's all right," Phil assured him. "You don't have to hold on until you wear yourself out. Just come and tell me, and I'll take care of you." Tony's erratic behavior reminded Phil of how cranky children could get when tired, especially if they didn't realize how tired they truly were.
"It's hard, though. I can't just come out and say it," Tony said.
"Neither can I," Phil said. "I can't even switch down without help. I need someone to push me down."
Steve had done most of the work, after a mission gone awry, helping Phil recover from the stress. Steve had held him close, pressed him down and in until he came out the other side of himself as Flip. Then Uncle Steve hadn't minded that Flip needed to fuss and struggle against him, hadn't lost his temper, was gentle and firm in a way that made it possible for Flip to relax.
It must be something similar for Tony, Phil thought. He needs to let go, accept the guidance, but he can't always do it by himself. Sometimes he needs help to get from no to yes.
"Nobody else has ever made me feel that way, made me want it like that. I don't know if that will ever change. Even Pepper -- even Rhodey --" Tony wound up clutching at the arc reactor.
* * *
Notes:
An unbalanced relationship is one example of toxic relationships. This often develops due to childhood trauma. You can see how Obie manipulated Tony into such a vulnerable position, playing on Tony's desperate need for a father figure. Know how to tell if someone is using you. Understand the styles of balanced relationships and how to form a caring partnership.
Building intimacy takes time and work. Physical intimacy goes through stages, most of them nonsexual; it isn't necessary to include sex for intimacy. If you look at how Tony uses gestures to control technology, that indicates how leans on haptic communication in general. He's not always good at interpreting human body language, but touch is meaningful to him. There are many kinds of nonsexual intimacy, because people need healthy touch. Physical intimacy may include things like cuddling and snuggling. Another good option is massage; anyone can learn how to give a relaxing massage. Ageplay can help build intimacy by lowering many of the barriers that are raised during adolescence.
Casual sex comes with its own set of rules. Some people enjoy it; others don't. It may be healthy or unhealthy, depending on context. In canon, Tony listed one of his four main attributes as "playboy," so I tend to write him as an ethical slut. He's honest about hooking up just for the physical release, and he has practiced his skills enough so that a good time is had by all. However, note that sexual promiscuity often appears among adult children of alcoholics and abuse survivors. So this could be innate or acquired for Tony.
Authority problems often begin in childhood. These can cause problems later in life. However, Tony's main problem is with false authority. He does better with people he respects. Learning how to trust authority after it has been abused is akin to learning trust after child abuse. There are ways to overcome problems with authority figures. This is another place where ageplay can help.
Genuine authority comes from expertise, and people naturally respect it. Gentle leadership exerts influence, not force. It helps to switch among different leadership techniques according to the circumstances. Phil uses coaching a lot: "Try this." Bucky tends toward authoritative leadership, the "come with me" approach. Steve epitomizes inspirational leadership. Tony himself has visionary leadership, primarily in the technical and economic fields. So the team has options for different situations.
The following section contains links with some sexual content, since almost everything written about power exchange comes from the kink community.
A submissive is a person with a compelling need to give up their free will sometimes in a nonsexual or sexual context. A submissive needs to feel safe, accepted, and consistently guided. In ageplay, the dominant player takes on a Big (adult) role and the submissive takes on a Little (child) role. In between are Middles: people playing older children, such as a big brother or a babysitter. Middles tend to be dominant to Littles but submissive to the Big. For Steve, looking after the "younger" players helps anchor him in the role; it's a key part of what enticed him to try ageplay in the first place. When he needs to be Little, he switches all the way down to Stevie. For Bucky, he can't seem to let go of his sense of responsibility, due to past parentification; but Tony has difficulty accepting that. They'll just have to work on this. Ageplay can offer healing from past abuse, especially for people who feel a need to be taken care of. Like many submissives, however, Littles may have difficulty accepting their needs and seeking fulfillment.
Remember that turbo is a button you push once and release, not push and hold down. Emotional exhaustion leads to changes in behavior. Learn how to overcome emotional exhaustion. Psychological exhaustion can cause physical effects too, and often plays into panic attacks. Understand how to help a mentally exhausted person. Consider how much work and stress Tony goes through, especially given his history of not eating or sleeping enough, and you can see why he really needs a safety valve such as ageplay.
One of my anonymous readers left a comment that made me realize I needed more footnotes:
Getting from no to yes is a vital but delicate skill for situations when a yes is desired, beneficial, or necessary but there are obstacles in the way. It's the middle road between using coercion or leaving matters in a problematic state. There are whole processes designed to make this safe and effective, such as principled negotiation and attentive speaking. Another case where it comes up is child advocacy.
Far more sensitive is the issue of regaining trust and functionality after a violation. For instance, many rape survivors experience difficulty with sex, even if they want to be intimate with someone. Some can't even get as far as a clear want stage, but are unwilling to stay celibate forever, so they have to work through that somehow. (Male survivors have some similar and some different issues compared to females.) This causes challenges for everyone. There are ways of reclaiming sexuality after rape. While one survivor may rely on saying "no" -- or even nonverbally withdrawing -- to signal a partner that they need to stop, another may be unable to respond other than "no" and be unsatisfied with that. Sometimes violation damages a person's ability to process consent smoothly.
So then a person with acquired limitations has to decide whether to leave those in place, or try to change them. Working in an area of impaired consent requires a lot of care and trust. As in counseling, measuring success may be challenging; it helps to keep records of progress. As discussed in this this post about disordered eating, it's also important to decide which triggers to work on first. We can tell that Tony is determined to improve in this area because he keeps trying to find a trustworthy caregiver despite previous violations, and because he sticks with Phil to resolve mishaps. We can tell that Phil is trustworthy because he works hard to fix and prevent mistakes, but especially, because he allows other people to push his boundaries when he needs it.
[To be continued in Part 33 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28, Part 29, Part 30, Part 31. Skip to Part 34, Part 35, Part 36, Part 37.
"Hide and Seek" Part 32
"Self-disclosure is a valid technique for building trust or repairing relationships after a breach," Phil said carefully, "but it also has drawbacks, as you've seen. For one thing, it needs to go both ways or it tends to unbalance the connection. For another, going too far too fast can cause problems."
"Like overdriving your headlights," Tony said.
"That's one way to look at it, yes," Phil said. "I think you might benefit from exploring additional ways to make up for mistakes. What about physical intimacy instead of emotional intimacy? That can provide an effective way to reconnect with someone."
"Sex isn't intimate."
Oh, Tony, Phil thought. He gave Tony's hand a compassionate squeeze.
"Besides, I don't want to have sex with my teammates. They're family, not groupies or fuckbuddies. They're important," Tony said.
Phil wondered if that distinction had also contributed to the breakup of Tony and Pepper as a romantic couple. Aloud he said, "I meant something like cuddling or massage, not sex. Affectionate touch can take many forms."
"Bucky and I do that too," Tony said, lifting a hand to where the arc reactor shone faintly through his shirt. "He's really gentle with me. Well, most of the time -- that's why the garage fight caught me off-guard so much, I wasn't expecting him to turn on me like that. It upset me more than I thought it could."
"You two seem to have a complicated relationship," Phil observed. "I think Bucky feels the same way about you. Usually you handle him with care, so the threats and shoving hit him a lot harder. How do you feel about it?"
"There's this ... " Tony's hand fluttered over his chest. " ... this thing between us, and I don't know what it is or what to do with it, really. It pulls. Only sometimes it pushes instead, and that hurts like fuck."
"I've noticed that pattern too," Phil said.
"Bucky would have run from me, down in the garage, if you hadn't held onto him," Tony said. "I didn't mean to be so nasty, I just ... have these problems with authority, and if people squeeze too hard, then I fight back."
"It makes you feel like you can't breathe," Phil guessed.
Tony coughed, then rubbed around the rim of the arc reactor. "That. Yes."
"You're learning to mind me," Phil observed. "You do quite well following Captain America in battle."
"That's different," Tony said. He flitted away from Phil again. "You two don't try to jerk me around anymore. You're the only ones who ever stopped doing that, and I don't know why."
"Steve and I both realized, in different ways, that what we started out doing with you just wasn't working," Phil said. "By then we cared enough about you that we didn't want to keep hurting you, so we tried out various other techniques until we found some that worked. Not everyone can adjust their leadership approach like that."
"Tell me about it," Tony grumbled. He fiddled with the paperweights on the coffee table, lining them up, then pushing them apart again.
"I think it's a matter of style," Phil said. "We need to find better ways for you and Bucky to work together."
"I don't know if I can," Tony said. "In the field, Cap just aims my skills. He's good at deploying the team effectively, okay, I get that now. On game nights I can play with Steve because he doesn't act like he's in charge, just ... more experienced ... and even that took me a while to get used to, because of the history. Bucky, though, sometimes he acts like he's the boss. When we're on equal footing, I can deal with him, but when he tries to push me around I just snap."
"Mmm ... that is a problem. I'll watch for it," Phil said. "Sometimes you do all right with Bucky, though. I've seen you looking up to him in certain ways. Do you think you can give him some time to learn better?"
"I can try," Tony said. "Guess I owe him that after the shitty way I treated him in the garage."
"Be gentle with yourself too," Phil reminded him. "I know you can."
"That's just it. You're the only one who makes me feel ..." Tony said, his voice wavering. He patted the air with his hands. "I don't know. Like I can give you this part of me for a while -- the strong part, the in charge part -- and you'll hold it for me without dropping it. Without breaking it. I get so tired of trying to hold everything together myself, and with you I don't have to."
"Tony, it's all right," Phil assured him. "You don't have to hold on until you wear yourself out. Just come and tell me, and I'll take care of you." Tony's erratic behavior reminded Phil of how cranky children could get when tired, especially if they didn't realize how tired they truly were.
"It's hard, though. I can't just come out and say it," Tony said.
"Neither can I," Phil said. "I can't even switch down without help. I need someone to push me down."
Steve had done most of the work, after a mission gone awry, helping Phil recover from the stress. Steve had held him close, pressed him down and in until he came out the other side of himself as Flip. Then Uncle Steve hadn't minded that Flip needed to fuss and struggle against him, hadn't lost his temper, was gentle and firm in a way that made it possible for Flip to relax.
It must be something similar for Tony, Phil thought. He needs to let go, accept the guidance, but he can't always do it by himself. Sometimes he needs help to get from no to yes.
"Nobody else has ever made me feel that way, made me want it like that. I don't know if that will ever change. Even Pepper -- even Rhodey --" Tony wound up clutching at the arc reactor.
* * *
Notes:
An unbalanced relationship is one example of toxic relationships. This often develops due to childhood trauma. You can see how Obie manipulated Tony into such a vulnerable position, playing on Tony's desperate need for a father figure. Know how to tell if someone is using you. Understand the styles of balanced relationships and how to form a caring partnership.
Building intimacy takes time and work. Physical intimacy goes through stages, most of them nonsexual; it isn't necessary to include sex for intimacy. If you look at how Tony uses gestures to control technology, that indicates how leans on haptic communication in general. He's not always good at interpreting human body language, but touch is meaningful to him. There are many kinds of nonsexual intimacy, because people need healthy touch. Physical intimacy may include things like cuddling and snuggling. Another good option is massage; anyone can learn how to give a relaxing massage. Ageplay can help build intimacy by lowering many of the barriers that are raised during adolescence.
Casual sex comes with its own set of rules. Some people enjoy it; others don't. It may be healthy or unhealthy, depending on context. In canon, Tony listed one of his four main attributes as "playboy," so I tend to write him as an ethical slut. He's honest about hooking up just for the physical release, and he has practiced his skills enough so that a good time is had by all. However, note that sexual promiscuity often appears among adult children of alcoholics and abuse survivors. So this could be innate or acquired for Tony.
Authority problems often begin in childhood. These can cause problems later in life. However, Tony's main problem is with false authority. He does better with people he respects. Learning how to trust authority after it has been abused is akin to learning trust after child abuse. There are ways to overcome problems with authority figures. This is another place where ageplay can help.
Genuine authority comes from expertise, and people naturally respect it. Gentle leadership exerts influence, not force. It helps to switch among different leadership techniques according to the circumstances. Phil uses coaching a lot: "Try this." Bucky tends toward authoritative leadership, the "come with me" approach. Steve epitomizes inspirational leadership. Tony himself has visionary leadership, primarily in the technical and economic fields. So the team has options for different situations.
The following section contains links with some sexual content, since almost everything written about power exchange comes from the kink community.
A submissive is a person with a compelling need to give up their free will sometimes in a nonsexual or sexual context. A submissive needs to feel safe, accepted, and consistently guided. In ageplay, the dominant player takes on a Big (adult) role and the submissive takes on a Little (child) role. In between are Middles: people playing older children, such as a big brother or a babysitter. Middles tend to be dominant to Littles but submissive to the Big. For Steve, looking after the "younger" players helps anchor him in the role; it's a key part of what enticed him to try ageplay in the first place. When he needs to be Little, he switches all the way down to Stevie. For Bucky, he can't seem to let go of his sense of responsibility, due to past parentification; but Tony has difficulty accepting that. They'll just have to work on this. Ageplay can offer healing from past abuse, especially for people who feel a need to be taken care of. Like many submissives, however, Littles may have difficulty accepting their needs and seeking fulfillment.
Remember that turbo is a button you push once and release, not push and hold down. Emotional exhaustion leads to changes in behavior. Learn how to overcome emotional exhaustion. Psychological exhaustion can cause physical effects too, and often plays into panic attacks. Understand how to help a mentally exhausted person. Consider how much work and stress Tony goes through, especially given his history of not eating or sleeping enough, and you can see why he really needs a safety valve such as ageplay.
One of my anonymous readers left a comment that made me realize I needed more footnotes:
Getting from no to yes is a vital but delicate skill for situations when a yes is desired, beneficial, or necessary but there are obstacles in the way. It's the middle road between using coercion or leaving matters in a problematic state. There are whole processes designed to make this safe and effective, such as principled negotiation and attentive speaking. Another case where it comes up is child advocacy.
Far more sensitive is the issue of regaining trust and functionality after a violation. For instance, many rape survivors experience difficulty with sex, even if they want to be intimate with someone. Some can't even get as far as a clear want stage, but are unwilling to stay celibate forever, so they have to work through that somehow. (Male survivors have some similar and some different issues compared to females.) This causes challenges for everyone. There are ways of reclaiming sexuality after rape. While one survivor may rely on saying "no" -- or even nonverbally withdrawing -- to signal a partner that they need to stop, another may be unable to respond other than "no" and be unsatisfied with that. Sometimes violation damages a person's ability to process consent smoothly.
So then a person with acquired limitations has to decide whether to leave those in place, or try to change them. Working in an area of impaired consent requires a lot of care and trust. As in counseling, measuring success may be challenging; it helps to keep records of progress. As discussed in this this post about disordered eating, it's also important to decide which triggers to work on first. We can tell that Tony is determined to improve in this area because he keeps trying to find a trustworthy caregiver despite previous violations, and because he sticks with Phil to resolve mishaps. We can tell that Phil is trustworthy because he works hard to fix and prevent mistakes, but especially, because he allows other people to push his boundaries when he needs it.
[To be continued in Part 33 ...]
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-23 07:28 am (UTC)I love where you're taking Tony's character with the age play, I always thought that he was giving in to the new role too easy and you're addressing it now which I'm a big fan of.
I'm excited to see if Tony will do an age play with Phil in private and how that would work, I think it would be good for both of them.
Thank you for such an awesome chapter and story, your work continues to impress me.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-23 07:44 am (UTC)Thank you! I'm happy to hear that.
"I love where you're taking Tony's character with the age play, I always thought that he was giving in to the new role too easy and you're addressing it now which I'm a big fan of."
Tony jumped in with both feet because the ageplay offered things he wanted and needed. He's able to go with the role because he's used to presenting different personas; very few people have even met the real Tony. But this is more about stripping away masks than putting them on. At first it worked pretty well. Then the complications started to appear, and you can see little hints building over time. This is one of the big blowups.
Tony, Phil, and Bucky will work through this eventually, but it is going to take serious effort on everyone's part. Some of it will get resolved in this story; some will remain for later development. Part of the challenge is simply that a lot is going on which people haven't realized yet. Tony is just now starting to understand what he needs and why with regard to ageplay. It's still difficult for him to articulate.
>> I'm excited to see if Tony will do an age play with Phil in private and how that would work, I think it would be good for both of them. <<
*wink* Wait and see! That has certainly proven useful for the other Avengers who have done it.
>> Thank you for such an awesome chapter and story, your work continues to impress me. <<
You're welcome. That's always good to hear.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-23 08:46 am (UTC)I also like the way you're handling Bucky. A lot of writers just put him into the team and he's fine and happy and maybe has a flashback once to emphasise what a tragic hero he is, but you're actually giving him a lot of depth.
I'd like to see some interaction between Steve and Tony, because Steve's been acting oddly (Power source problems?) since he started spending so much time with Bucky, and Tony (and Bruce actually) need to know he's still on their side.
I did find the line 'he needs help to get from a no to a yes' slightly disturbing though, and I'm not entirely sure why. I know Phil has the best intentions and Tony gave a sort of blanket consent earlier after Phil wouldn't let go. I also know, that Tony wants and needs what Phil can give him, he just needs help getting past his knee jerk resistance. But I still found that line kind of disturbing. :/
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-23 06:23 pm (UTC)Thank you!
>> I really like the way you're exploring Tony's character. <<
He has a lot of depth, and a lot of damage. Tony is among my favorite characters to write because of his complexity.
>> I've found this one more emotional than the others in a lot of ways because of the amount of conflict throughout. <<
Several folks have said that. I honestly wasn't expecting this to be a tense story; it was supposed to be a fluff breaker between intense ones. Oh well. Tony does what he wants. 0_o Happily there is some ageplay and homey goodness later in the story to make up for all the aaaaangst in the front.
>> This chapter is really good, I like the way Phil is trying so hard to help Tony and Tony WANTS to be helped so bad, but it's like they're in a dark room, trying to find each other. <<
Hide and seek is a running theme for this story, hence the title. Up to this point, Tony has had only a murky understanding of his needs (as opposed to his wants, he's much better at pursuing surface desires) so that has limited his opportunities for personal growth and healing. Now that he's been around Phil long enough, Tony is starting to access some of his deeper feelings, which are a tangled mess of nettles and razor wire. No wonder the poor guy stumbles a lot, trying to wade through that! Tony does want to resolve his problems, but the same past that caused the problems also impairs his ability to ask for and accept help.
Phil is a terrific handler. He's seen some of this before. Specifically, one thing that abusers and brainwashers do, if they're attacking on purpose rather than by instinct alone, is to cripple a victim's ability to escape or seek help. (Remember how Phil brought in Betty? It took a lot of work, because her father ripped apart her support network with the explicit intent of isolating her so she'd be easy to control, as shown in canon. Which is about as bright as lighting a firework while holding onto it, but Daddy Ross is not the sharpest marble in the stack.) So Phil has experience in working through externally created resistance, which can also join up with innate resistance, in ways that make it possible for a survivor to reclaim at least part of what they seek and to get their needs met. It's uncomfortable at times, but it is definitely better than coercion and often better than leaving things at the status quo.
>> And now they finally seem to be getting somewhere. <<
Yes. Honestly, it took a lot of groundwork before they could have the kind of blowup that would bring these things to light. Deep down on a subconscious level, I think Tony has been testing Phil's patience in a way that allowed buildup toward this kind of release. It was extra painful that other people got involved, but in a family, that tends to happen. You may not get perfect field conditions, so you work with the opportunities you have.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-23 06:37 pm (UTC)Yay! I'm glad this is working for you.
>> A lot of writers just put him into the team and he's fine and happy and maybe has a flashback once to emphasise what a tragic hero he is, but you're actually giving him a lot of depth. <<
I hate when writers introduce something without considering its implications. It's a common flaw. I learned not to do this in college, thanks to a gaming example and a friend's allergy -- that these things shape how a character moves through the world. So that's why I write the way I do.
I wanted to bring Bucky into the group because of all his fascinating connections with people, but also because the details of his damage offer terrific opportunities to explore how the Avengers would cope with someone needing care not just for a day or few, but for weeks or months. It also let me explore some tropes in amputation and amnesia that are often botched -- hence the cyclic amnesia, which complicates Bucky's ability to deal with his losses and heal the damage. You can't fix what you can't find.
It's not something that can be handwaved away. It takes time and work to trace back the mental injuries to their sources and deal with that. So that's hard on Bucky and everyone around him.
>> I'd like to see some interaction between Steve and Tony, <<
There is a bit of that later. There is also a lengthy discussion between Steve and Phil, about Tony and Bucky.
>> because Steve's been acting oddly (Power source problems?) since he started spending so much time with Bucky, <<
Bullseye! That's a key part of Steve's destructive behavior. Aside from that, though, he also has the natural grief of having lost Bucky in the first place, and having to deal with the changes in their relationship, which there was no time to mourn during the war. Usually Steve can compensate well enough to stay functional, and when he cries over things, it's straightforward more often than not. But that energy source is emotional poison.
>> and Tony (and Bruce actually) need to know he's still on their side. <<
Bucky and Steve have some interaction with Bruce too, although some of that happens outside Phil's view. There's a good chunk of mutual interaction later in the story that we do get to see.
Okay...
Date: 2013-10-23 07:06 pm (UTC)>> I did find the line 'he needs help to get from a no to a yes' slightly disturbing though, and I'm not entirely sure why. <<
Let me see if I can help figure this out. You can ask more about it if you need to. I see this concept as disturbing because it deals with conflicted and impaired consent, which is always a touchy thing. People tend to want a clear-cut yes or no.
The catch is, life's messy. Few things are really that black-and-white. It's natural to push for what we want. It's also natural to get in our own way, tangling up what we need. So it's important to have skills for navigating that gray area, because sometimes the black or the white alone will get people hurt.
The usual rule is to take "no" for an answer, but that would leave Tony in a situation so stressful that he's been hurting himself for a long time. Really not a positive outcome. Coercing Tony -- which is what Phil started with back in the movies -- is unethical, only marginally effective on practical scales, and downright counterproductive on relational scales. The fact that Tony tolerated Phil in spite of their rough start, and showed signs of trusting him quite early, indicates that Tony sensed something very appealing in Phil that outweighed the negatives. That's canon. This is my attempt at an explanation.
>> I know Phil has the best intentions and Tony gave a sort of blanket consent earlier after Phil wouldn't let go. <<
Yes. Tony has all kinds of boundary issues. Among other things, sometimes that means he says yes when he should say no, or no when he should say yes; he gives people too much or too little access control. Phil and Tony are trying to work out what a healthy set of boundaries would be here. It's another round of hide and seek in the dark.
What does matter a great deal here is that Tony trusts Phil, and that Phil wants Tony to be as happy and functional as possible. So it's a good gamble on Tony's part, even though sometimes it's going to hurt. It's an honest effort on Phil's part, even though it's a difficult task. Phil doesn't simply take all the permission and run with it. He's actively trying to keep an eye on where Tony's boundaries should be, and therefore Phil sometimes suggests that Tony pull back when it looks like he's going too far. They're trying to come up with new alternatives where old solutions are insufficient or troublesome.
>> I also know, that Tony wants and needs what Phil can give him, he just needs help getting past his knee jerk resistance. <<
That's exactly it. This kind of situation is pretty common for survivors of betrayal, whether physical or psychological. Past experience complications present relationships, impairs consent and decision-making, and just generally makes life difficult. What makes it worse is that everyone else brutalized Tony's ability to trust others, but Obie wrecked his ability to trust himself. So then Tony couldn't get enough traction to fix anything. It's like needing someone to help push your car out of a ditch -- and you can't just shove on it, you have to rock it carefully back and forth until the wheels engage again, and then be ready to let go.
>> But I still found that line kind of disturbing. :/ <<
Well, it is disturbing. It shows how badly hurt Tony is, that he can't even ask for help without hesitating and flinching and usually bailing out prior to success. But it also shows that Tony is determined to get better rather than accept "I can't" for an answer, and that Phil is determined to help even if what Tony needs is uneasy and challenging. It's better than parking butt in "Tony is miserable and self-destructive" territory.
When you're going through hell, keep going.
Re: Okay...
Date: 2013-10-23 11:10 pm (UTC)I honestly am not sure why that line bothered me so much because intellectually, I get what you mean and what you're saying. I get that Tony needs this and wants it, but he can't articulate it. I have some issues with asking for things myself, especially things which are really important (I'm working on it) and I have occasionally been given things I've insisted I didn't need or persuaded to accept help that I have initially refused. (I also tend to over share as a short cut to friendship, then once I get close to someone I tend to stop sharing for fear of driving them away, so I'm relating to Tony on many different levels in this story. (I'm working on this too)).
I guess shades of grey are always kind of disturbing, especially when you can't seen exactly where the boundaries are. And the kind of blind trust (or not blind trust, exactly, he sees Phil for who he is and trusts him completely anyway) Tony would have to have in Phil is kind of terrifying to me. It must be quite scary for Phil as well. Knowing that he could have that kind of power over Tony, and Tony must be just as scared knowing he's giving Phil that power.
The thing is, we haven't seen Phil back down over anything really. He always seems to know what's best and he always takes control and does the right thing and the others follow his lead. I think maybe it would help to show that Phil would back down if one of them said no meaning no. I mean, I know that he would, he's Phil Coulson, he's the good guy. But making a no a yes has disturbingly dub-con connotations for me, and I know that's not how you meant it, and in the context, it doesn't even come across like that. I'm probably being overly sensitive. If Tony asked Phil to leave him alone and said 'no, I don't want to come to Game Night, I need time away from everyone, esp Bucky', would Phil try and persuade him, and then back down when Tony stood his ground, or would he take hold of Tony's arm and drag him into the common room?
Wow. I'm getting my issues all over your story. Sorry about that. I want to reiterate how much I'm enjoying this series overall, and this story in particular (although Dolls and Guys remains my favourite, for your excellent characterisation of Betty and the interaction between Tony and Steve / Bruce and Tony).
Re: Okay...
Date: 2013-10-24 10:19 pm (UTC)You're welcome!
>> I don't always click through and read them all, but a lot of the time just seeing you have provided resources for whatever issues are present is enough to be reassuring. <<
Nobody needs them all. Just read the ones that grab your interest. I try to adapt the footnotes to audience knowledge, and given the folks reading this series, some know a LOT while others have really big gaps. So I just tell people to skip what they don't need or like. I've been surprised by some things I've had to add because someone didn't know them -- and then sometimes that information isn't easy to find a reference for.
>> Like 'okay, it's not just me'. I meant to comment on this aspect earlier actually, as I really do appreciate them. <<
Whatever it is that you feel or that you don't know, there's probably someone else out there sharing it.
>> I honestly am not sure why that line bothered me so much <<
Another aspect I forgot to mention: "working a no into a yes" appears in manipulative contexts such as high-pressure sales and dub-con sex. That carries over into other contexts where the shift may be helpful instead of harmful. It sounds creepy if you've heard it in bad examples, especially if you're not consciously thinking of that; it's just your instincts subliminally associating the phrase with harm.
So you have to look at motive (why someone is urging another person toward a specific course of action) and outcome (whether it benefits or harms the person who agrees). Convincing people to go against their own interest is parasitic behavior. Convincing people to do beneficial if stressful things is supportive behavior.
Also consider responsibility. A manipulative person will blame the victim if things go wrong. A moral person who has convinced someone to follow their advice will accept shared responsibility if it turns out badly, and try to help fix things. That makes it more feasible to trust their advice in the future, because nobody is right 100% of the time -- what matters is that you usually give good advice, and you keep trying to reach a successful resolution even if that requires some troubleshooting along the way.
>> because intellectually, I get what you mean and what you're saying. I get that Tony needs this and wants it, but he can't articulate it. <<
That's good to hear.
>> I have some issues with asking for things myself, especially things which are really important (I'm working on it) and I have occasionally been given things I've insisted I didn't need or persuaded to accept help that I have initially refused. <<
It can be really rough. I'm glad you're making progress.
>> (I also tend to over share as a short cut to friendship, then once I get close to someone I tend to stop sharing for fear of driving them away, so I'm relating to Tony on many different levels in this story. (I'm working on this too)). <<
Yeah, I think the similarity is playing into your discomfort here.
For me, the exact matches are different but the resonance is still there. My body and mind are substantially different from the usual, which means that other people telling me what to do is destructive more often than not. I can only think of one person who is sometimes right when I'm guessing wrong about myself, and even then, my accuracy rate is higher. But it's really useful to have that second opinion from someone with my best interests at heart, because even I am not right ALL the time. It's incredibly hard to listen to someone else when your instincts are screaming at you to do one thing, and the other person is saying to do something else, especially when you are usually right. And it's not much better in areas where you know from past experience that your instincts are wrong; doesn't make them any quieter. You just have to grit your teeth and use logic to choose some other input and decision-making source.
>> I guess shades of grey are always kind of disturbing, especially when you can't seen exactly where the boundaries are. <<
That matches my observations, yes.
>> And the kind of blind trust (or not blind trust, exactly, he sees Phil for who he is and trusts him completely anyway) Tony would have to have in Phil is kind of terrifying to me. <<
In a sense, it really is blind trust, because Tony can't perceive boundaries the way other people do. There are a few he can -- like "It's wrong to sell weapons made for American soldiers to people who shoot American soldiers." Most of the everyday boundaries -- like "Don't interrupt someone else's presentation -- are either vague or invisible to Tony. He's lived his whole life in public view; it makes privacy hard for him to grasp. Other people have violated him so much that he can't easily understand what's okay and what's not. He stumbles constantly in personal relationships because he can't see where he's going.
In order to fix that, Tony has to trust someone else to tell him where the lines are. Rhodey and Pepper help, but their methods grate on him. Obie and Yinsen fucked him over, in different ways. Tony leans on JARVIS a lot for guidance. Steve is a terrific role model, but Tony feels hopelessly out of range there, and the personal history from childhood is really messed up. Bucky's big-brother approach is actually great here, when he models instead of orders.
But so far, Phil is the only one Tony feels like he can fully relax with, and let Phil take over. It's kind of like using a designated driver when you're drunk. Tony feels that he has seen enough of Phil's behavior to rely on Phil giving him an accurate read of where the boundaries are that Tony can't perceive.
An interesting thing that just occurred to me: Tony's original moral orientation was on Captain America. Then Howard messed that up by overdoing the comparisons. The inclination is still there, but Tony's later adaptation is to fight it, which complicates his relationship with Steve. It's taking them some time to work through that. So who does Tony pick instead? Phil ... who also uses Captain America as his moral north. Now consider that Bucky raised Steve, and is a major reason why Steve is the way he is. It's the style of influence that made Tony go into a bucking frenzy. The fact that Phil, Steve, and Bucky all share a common moral ground suggests that -- once they've hashed out the mess of complicating factors -- Tony will get better at following all of them at need.
I don't think Steve has realized yet, this aspect of damage from his initial fight with Tony on the Helicarrier. Steve knows that he was wrong to judge Tony as selfish and unwilling to make a sacrifice. He knows that Howard tormented Tony by comparing him to Steve. But it hasn't quite clicked that a "you're not good enough" from the guy whose moral compass everyone is relying on, is a lot worse than hearing the same thing from the peanut gallery. It must've done more damage than Natalie Rushman's "Iron Man, yes; Tony Stark, not recommended."
>> It must be quite scary for Phil as well. Knowing that he could have that kind of power over Tony, and Tony must be just as scared knowing he's giving Phil that power. <<
Yes, it is -- especially since some of the other people Tony has tried to rely on for boundary guidance wound up violating him. Phil is acutely conscious of how much harm he could do with even an innocent mistake.
>> The thing is, we haven't seen Phil back down over anything really. <<
There are hints of that. There may not be a really clear onstage example yet. Phil is the best handler, and he's usually right. We've seen him make some mistakes, and there will be more of that in the future. There are times when Phil backs off the pressure, and leaves a decision to other people. I'll watch for an opportunity to highlight when he just plain concedes a point.
>> He always seems to know what's best and he always takes control and does the right thing and the others follow his lead. <<
That's true, as long as it's a situation where Phil's skills apply and he feels confident. Rattle his conviction or his connection to his people, and he falls apart because he doesn't have a firm foundation to stand on. If you trace back the issue with JARVIS and self-injury, one of Phil's responses was that he should have insisted on JARVIS checking in, rather than letting it slide. Phil actually did a simlar thing with Tony, letting him get away with hiding injuries, pushing for but not forcing disclosure. Bruce was the one who finally put his foot down on that topic, and by then Tony was sufficiently attached to him to go along with it.
>> I think maybe it would help to show that Phil would back down if one of them said no meaning no. <<
I agree, that would help.
>> I mean, I know that he would, he's Phil Coulson, he's the good guy. But making a no a yes has disturbingly dub-con connotations for me, and I know that's not how you meant it, and in the context, it doesn't even come across like that. I'm probably being overly sensitive. <<
I don't think you're being overly sensitive. The moral quandary is real, and worth exploring with care.
>> If Tony asked Phil to leave him alone and said 'no, I don't want to come to Game Night, I need time away from everyone, esp Bucky', would Phil try and persuade him, and then back down when Tony stood his ground, or would he take hold of Tony's arm and drag him into the common room? <<
I don't think Phil would force a specific activity, especially game night which needs to be safe space. As long as Tony doesn't seem likely to hurt himself or anyone else, he's free to make his own decision. But Phil isn't comfortable leaving Tony alone in high-risk situations. Some of this comes up in various conversations. The post-fight scenario was Phil's best attempt at damage control in a case where he was pretty sure Tony would do damage if left alone. But if Tony had, say, locked himself in somewhere for sake of privacy, I don't think Phil would break in just on the suspicion of it being bad for Tony to be alone. The intervention threshold is higher; something would have to be actively going wrong for Phil to feel justified in intruding.
Needing time away from people is okay. Not wanting to play is okay. There are other options, and indeed, Phil is urgently trying to help Tony acquire more coping skills both for private and public use. The important thing is being able to communicate one's needs clearly, and being able to face challenges without doing avoidable damage to self or others.
Also worth mentioning, because there's just a hint of it at the very beginning of "Love Is For Children," is how Phil deals with Clint's incidental self-harm. It doesn't come up often, although it will if I get to bring in Loki later. Clint's last-ditch tactic for coping with unbearable emotional stress is to shoot bare-handed until his body can override his feelings again. That tends to leave him with blisters at best and raw skin at worst. Phil hates it. They've been arguing over this since they met, and worked their way through compromises. But it's not something Clint is ready or able to give up yet, and the consequences of not doing it are even worse. So Phil backed down and agreed to let him keep it as the last option, with what safety precautions they can manage.
>> Wow. I'm getting my issues all over your story. Sorry about that. <<
It's okay! The story itself has more issues than a magazine rack. I enjoy the feedback.
>> I want to reiterate how much I'm enjoying this series overall, and this story in particular (although Dolls and Guys remains my favourite, for your excellent characterisation of Betty and the interaction between Tony and Steve / Bruce and Tony). <<
Yay! I'm happy to hear that.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-23 10:00 am (UTC)Your links reminded me that we just did a team-building exercise based on the four leadership frames at work; we took this quiz before the meeting and then discussed a case study based on these frames and where the problems fell in each frame.
http://www.josseybassbusiness.com/2013/07/assessment-leadership-orientations-self-assessment.html
Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-26 05:24 am (UTC)I'm happy to hear that.
>>Your links reminded me that we just did a team-building exercise based on the four leadership frames at work; we took this quiz before the meeting and then discussed a case study based on these frames and where the problems fell in each frame.<<
Fascinating. There are some useful differences in leadership methods. I was intrigued to note that mine diverge -- I'm far more prone toward people-building as an editor, and more inclined toward logic and task focus when I'm trying to run an event. Because there's a big difference between teaching people how to do something vs. organizing a current activity.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-23 10:39 am (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-27 04:15 am (UTC)I'm glad you found this so moving.
>> When I calm down, there might be a longer comment, but right now: this is heart-piercing. <<
More feedback is always welcome, but this is delightful unto itself. I know feelings can get tangled up around a favorite story.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-23 12:35 pm (UTC)Mostly I agree, that Tony for being a slut is ethical about it. He doesn't inveigle with promises of emotion he's not sparing or prey on people (that he knows of, past baggage of his partners...) He dangles out the "we can roll around on expensive sheets, drive real fast, drink and eat and I've annotated the kama sutra. Tony Stark, you knew that."
What I'm much more shaky about is during college whether his partners were even a little careful with him. There may be a reason he associates sex with not intimate.
I'll save my thoughts on Pepper since she's tangental to this story arc.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-25 04:43 am (UTC)Tony: "Senator Buskin is made of bullshit?"
O: "I learn that every day. But this is different. There's a whorehouse on the north side of town. So you know what? I think we need to make a trip off-campus tonight, make a real man of you."
T: "Uh, okay?"
O: "Hah! That's the ticket! We'll just walk up to the madam of the house and say, 'That girl, how much is she?' Fifty dollars and she's yours for the night, do anything you want. Do you like that idea, Tony? Because she'll be a pro, she'll really make you love it. Here, have a little of this."
T: "I guess? I kinda got to study for a test later, the professor is kind of rough on freshmen--"
O: "Yeah, Barky's always been a dick. I'll take care of it, then we'll go have fun, okay? Pick you up at seven!"
T: "All right, Obie. Later.."
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-25 04:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-25 12:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-26 10:45 pm (UTC)Yeah, Tony really wouldn't have needed help having fun at college, but I'm absolutely sure Obie wanted to keep a close hand on him when possible.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-25 06:11 am (UTC)True. She should also know better than to go wandering around someone's house after a one-night-stand. The polite thing to do after waking up to an empty bed is promptly let yourself out.
Conversely, it was tacky of Tony to sneak out of bed without having specified departure parameters. (That was unpleasant for Christine, JARVIS, and Pepper.) I suspect that Tony has a cutoff point of some kind when he feels that he's fulfilled his responsibilities as a lover, probably either after his partner has had as many orgasms as she wants, or she falls asleep. He's the kind of guy who sacks out after sex, then wakes up half an hour later with a great idea burning a hole in his head.
>> She's acting like some sort of jilted Cinderella. I've allowed this is an aberation (smart women are allowed to be dumb if it's occasional) and she's actually a good journalist. <<
I'm okay with dumb women in a story if there are also smart ones. Tony has Pepper, who is a CEO. It's fine if he wants to surround himself with groupies otherwise.
>>Mostly I agree, that Tony for being a slut is ethical about it.<<
I would say, he's no worse at this than he is at any other human interactions. He's still Tony, still easily distracted by his own brilliance; but he's good enough that he never has any trouble attracting company. He must have a good reputation as a one-night-stand.
>> He doesn't inveigle with promises of emotion he's not sparing or prey on people (that he knows of, past baggage of his partners...) <<
Exactly.
>> He dangles out the "we can roll around on expensive sheets, drive real fast, drink and eat and I've annotated the kama sutra. Tony Stark, you knew that." <<
He's a salesman; he knows his selling points.
>> What I'm much more shaky about is during college whether his partners were even a little careful with him. <<
They probably weren't. Tony went off to college at 15. So there he is with plenty of money, little supervision, and teenage hormones. Throw around enough cash and someone would fuck him. But the kind of women who'd have sex with an emotionally wounded, lonely 15-year-old are not likely to take a very healthy approach.
>> There may be a reason he associates sex with not intimate. <<
Likely so.
You know, I thought about sexual abuse with Obie, and figured it didn't make sense in this context. But at college, from whatever random partners Tony could attract? It's probable. I can't imagine Tony being willing to wait until he was of legal age. He probably enjoyed himself, but I doubt it was all that good for him.
>> I'll save my thoughts on Pepper since she's tangental to this story arc. <<
Fair enough.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-25 12:56 pm (UTC)Tony generally has an idea burning a hole. Sometimes he lets his dick take priority. If he plans well, there is math left on a card as his parting shot.
(That is one problem with Tony/Pepper. She wouldn't be able to accept an equation and know why it's touching. She might be able to ask AND listen to the explanation. Bruce is Tony's sciencebro because when Tony offers things Bruce understands. Even if it is drunkard's walk math. Maybe Tony should start a new art collection? Themed off math and science.
"That's a photograph?"
"The colors are added. Electro-microscope and a crystal."
"It's science-fiction. Wow." Steve looks at it very carefully.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-10-31 06:51 am (UTC)Also true.
>>Tacky, but then Tony isn't known for his decorum. The swag bag would be tackier if I didn't know about award show bags. "Ooh, you fucked Tony! Dish." Things playmates say after seeing part of a haul.<<
I can see women saying things like that about Tony, and it probably started in college -- and is a big part of why he doesn't see sex as intimate.
>>Tony generally has an idea burning a hole. Sometimes he lets his dick take priority. If he plans well, there is math left on a card as his parting shot.<<
That's true, he's always thinking of something.
>> (That is one problem with Tony/Pepper. She wouldn't be able to accept an equation and know why it's touching. She might be able to ask AND listen to the explanation. <<
Yeah, it's a limitation. *ponder* Unless he hooked her with economic equations. That's a probable area of mutual skill and interest.
>> Bruce is Tony's sciencebro because when Tony offers things Bruce understands. Even if it is drunkard's walk math. <<
They suit each other so well there.
>>Maybe Tony should start a new art collection? Themed off math and science.<<
Well, he'd have to start it himself, after the way he botched the dispensation of his last art collection.
>> "That's a photograph?"
"The colors are added. Electro-microscope and a crystal."
"It's science-fiction. Wow." Steve looks at it very carefully. <<
I love this idea.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-11-01 01:16 am (UTC)I can see women saying things like that about Tony, and it probably started in college -- and is a big part of why he doesn't see sex as intimate.
I'm hoping it was once he was older but it's hard to say. At least if it was 19 year old gals with a 17 year old Tony it not as paging Mrs. Robinson.
Hmm, not sure what economics might thrill Pepper.
Yes, you can't delegate apologies to the very recipient. However, Tony would be well suited to the specialized nature. And JARVIS could help. Though I'm waiting for Steve to assist Dum-e make Tony a present.
Strobe pictures I think would blow Steve's socks. Crown of milk.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-24 11:46 pm (UTC)Helga
Thank you!
Date: 2013-10-26 10:42 pm (UTC)I'm happy to hear this.
>>Still giving out the cookies, hot chocolate, and cuddles.<<
Yeah, everybody still needs that.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-25 11:03 am (UTC)ARGH.
I hate that that's where Tony's mind went right away.
And he seriously thought that was what Phil meant. He actually believed Phil would suggest, "Hey, if you screw up, you could let someone screw you as penance."
Good god, tell me that's not an idea he got from Obie, too.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-25 12:23 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-25 06:32 pm (UTC)Well...
Date: 2013-11-22 03:52 am (UTC)Tony has kind of an odd relationship with sex. He does it a lot and thinks about it a lot. Everyone knows about his sex life; he never had much privacy. He started screwing around in college, probably while he was still 15. But Tony doesn't have the more serious associations with sex that most people do.
>> But he immediately starts to explain, in several sentences, why sex would be a bad solution. <<
Honestly, it's impressive that Tony knows this because a lot of people from disadvantaged backgrounds don't.
>> He doesn't even raise an eyebrow at the idea that Phil would suggest it, or realize how out of character it'd be for Phil. Because to him, it apparently seems like a legitimate idea in principle, just not one that applies to his situation. <<
Tony probably has seen sex used as a teambuilding exercise -- maybe even successfully. He has undoubtedly seen and had a great deal of make-up sex. He's just coming at the idea from a different angle than Phil, and may not realize that part.
Yes...
Date: 2013-10-25 10:11 pm (UTC)That's at least part of it.
>> 'Intimacy' has not been being paired with the other relationships than sexual. Sort of how 'intercourse' used to need a modifier to mean sex and now that's the assumed meaning to the mirth of people reading old things. <<
Yes, it's much the same. Plus Tony has minimal experience with intimacy; that makes it harder for him to recognize it and distinguish among different kinds. The deepest intimacy Tony has is with JARVIS, which is far more intellectual than physical. Now that Tony is starting to form other kinds of connections with his teammates, he's attracted to that, and he doesn't want to mess it up. But he can't seem to make the intimacy that he's getting here mesh with the sex that he's having elsewhere -- which is something that most people could do. Though in Tony's defense, that's a leading way to break up a good band.
>> Phil's gotten used to Tony's mental flight paths; too many people (Pepper included?) think this is Tony obsessed, he's just very good at reflecting the culture. <<
True. Tony is scarily good at reflecting culture. He often shows people what they want or expect to see, rather than what he really is. It makes it harder for people to hurt him, because they'll aim at the targets he shows them, not where it would really hurt. Steve and Bucky both ignored the handwaving and nailed him.
Well...
Date: 2013-10-25 06:56 pm (UTC)Hate as in it indicates that Tony has a troubled past, or hate in that it skews the story?
>> And he seriously thought that was what Phil meant. He actually believed Phil would suggest, "Hey, if you screw up, you could let someone screw you as penance." <<
I think Tony understood that Phil meant to suggest a reconnection method, rather than a penalty. Tony was using self-disclosure as a reconnection method that doubled as a penalty, and Phil was trying to talk him out of that approach. But most of Tony's physical contact, until very recently, has been casual sex. That's a strong association for him; if you mention close physical contact then his thoughts jump to sex. "Physical intimacy" is often a euphemism for sex, and Tony knows this.
Tut it's a misnomer for Tony given that he doesn't find sex to be intimate. It's as if Phil said, "Shake on it and make up," and Tony thought, "That's not going to be enough." Tony knows that for some people sex is a bonding activity, it just doesn't do much for him that way. It's like a handshake (to make a casual connection) or scratching an itch (to fulfill a physical need) or dancing (just for fun).
Plus there's the disjunct between casual sex and serious relationships. Come to think of it, Natasha is that way too, not mixing sex and family.
>> Good god, tell me that's not an idea he got from Obie, too. <<
Not directly. Some other writers have posited that Obie sexually abused Tony, and gods know there's enough evidence in canon for that. It didn't feel right for this series, though, so I left it at nonsexual manipulation and abuse.
But there's more that came up in discussion with another reader recently, about how Obie enabled Tony's bad habits (which I did count on) and how Tony's early sex partners may not have taken very good care of him. Tony went away to college at 15. So there he is, all cash and hormones and very little supervision. He'd get himself laid as expeditiously as possible. Trouble is, the kind of women who will lie down with a lonely, horny, rich 15-year-old are not likely to give him a good sexual education.
Now consider that Obie may have manipulated Tony by providing self-destructive luxuries such as booze and prostitutes. Not causing trouble per se, just helping Tony along a road that would leave him more dependent on Obie handing out little perks like this and smoothing the way when other people objected. It would keep Tony distracted and gratified, but not actually happy, so that he'd still turn to Obie in hopes of filling that aching need for approval -- which Obie would dole out as long as Tony remained pleasing.
This is not the same as Obie sexually abusing Tony or pimping out his body ... but does include Obie facilitating the kinds of situation and experience that lead to Tony designating sex as casual rather than intimate.
The core of why Tony feels that way is murky. It may be that he's aromantic and just doesn't get how sex could be used to form a deep personal relationship. It may be that, like many adult children of alcoholics, he is sexually promiscuous out of skill dearth or desperation for human contact. Worse, it may be some jumbled combination of those things; having negative influences feed into one's innate orientation is usually a recipe for disaster.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-26 10:42 am (UTC)Sure, "physical intimacy" is a frequent euphemism for sex, but it should still be glaringly obvious to Tony that that's not what Phil meant. Because it would be wildly inappropriate for him to suggest it. They fact that Tony can't see that and thinks that's what Phil is seriously suggesting (witnessed by the fact that he makes an argument against it) is what concerns me.
Well, I'm glad that Obie sexually abusing Tony is not where you're going with this. But the point that Tony never had very good relationships--of any kind--until recently still breaks my heart. :(
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-29 07:39 am (UTC)That's good to hear. Yes, Tony's past was awful.
>> Sure, "physical intimacy" is a frequent euphemism for sex, but it should still be glaringly obvious to Tony that that's not what Phil meant. <<
Remember that Tony has decades of shitty interactions with people, and a few months of the current healthy interactions. He's had a handful of good examples before that, but mostly bad ones. So no, it's not obvious to Tony, because he doesn't really know what appropriate behavior is like. That's a common problem for adult children of alcoholics, by the way -- they feel like they're faking their way through life because they have no understanding of "normal."
>> Because it would be wildly inappropriate for him to suggest it. <<
Some people do okay with office romances. But it's always risky in a tight-knit team. Phil has been quite careful about maintaining certain boundaries, especially sexual boundaries. I don't think people have specifically noticed that.
>> They fact that Tony can't see that and thinks that's what Phil is seriously suggesting (witnessed by the fact that he makes an argument against it) is what concerns me. <<
Given Tony's track record, he has probably used sex to get things he wanted, and has probably had people suggest to him that sex would be a way of solving this or that problem. Some of that may even have worked. I think it's impressive that Tony recognized a context in which sex would be counterproductive. He didn't notice that with Pepper until it was too late, and they had to disengage.
>> Well, I'm glad that Obie sexually abusing Tony is not where you're going with this. But the point that Tony never had very good relationships--of any kind--until recently still breaks my heart. :( <<
Tony had a few, enough to help keep him from melting down completely, but all limited in different ways. Edwin Jarvis obviously made a deep impression; problem is, a butler has little leverage in the family. Edwin could set a good example but couldn't protect Tony effectively. Peggy Carter made a great role model, but wasn't around much -- and may have cut Howard too much slack due to their history. I think if she'd really known how much Howard was hurting Tony, she would have punched his face in for him. Those relationships gave Tony a glimpse of what was possible, making it possible for him to reach out now.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-29 12:13 pm (UTC)That or pulled his leg out from him. She'd have added to her combat skillset.
Re:Pepper. I think he bought into some tropes. "There's this wonderful woman that's stuck with me. Maybe I could have a girlfriend instead of groupies."
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-29 11:23 pm (UTC)That's possible, although it's far more permitted of men than of women.
>> That or pulled his leg out from him. She'd have added to her combat skillset.<<
Heh, yeah. Excuse me whilst I take this blowtorch to your reputation.
>> Re:Pepper. I think he bought into some tropes. "There's this wonderful woman that's stuck with me. Maybe I could have a girlfriend instead of groupies." <<
That's very likely, although it may have been "should" instead of "could." I'm not positive but I think Tony may be aromantic. He enjoys sex but doesn't seem to care who it's with. He wants meaningful relationships but doesn't seem to connect that with sex. He tried combining the two with Pepper, and it kinda worked but also kinda frustrated the hell out of both of them in different ways. They just didn't fit well like that.
This makes me wonder if Tony tried the long-term girlfriend thing because it's expected rather than what he really wanted. He does what he wants, yes, but he's also floundering around trying to figure out what "normal" is like. The prevailing message is that normal sexual relationships are monogamous and permanent (even though that's not what most people do currently). If Tony doesn't perceive sex as intimate, that may also play into why it's hard for him to see boundaries that other people complain about him crossing.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-30 03:59 am (UTC)It's hard to tell with Tony. He's certainly in that part of the Venn diagram where I wouldn't want to have him spouting that there can only be one. Might be aromantic, might be pansexual. As long as he doesn't get into his noggin to practice overlapping serial 'monogamy', I consider Tony well marked.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-30 04:50 am (UTC)I think Peggy would tune her disapproval to Howard's emotional unsuitability rather than his age. If he were a good father, age wouldn't matter; and it doesn't affect how he's a bad father either. The fact that he's an indifferent drunk makes him a bad father, not the timing of Tony's birth. Not "Howard, don't you think you're too old for this?" but "Howard, you're too busy and you don't even like children. What were you thinking?"
"The condom broke. Besides, a man of my means oughta have an heir. Let's celebrate! We'll have a few drinks ..."
*smack* "I really don't think so."
>> It's hard to tell with Tony. He's certainly in that part of the Venn diagram where I wouldn't want to have him spouting that there can only be one.<<
True.
>> Might be aromantic, might be pansexual. <<
I read him as an equal-opportunity lover, more attracted by individuality or opportunity than by sex. I also tend to think Tony doesn't really subscribe to sexual labels much.
>> As long as he doesn't get into his noggin to practice overlapping serial 'monogamy', I consider Tony well marked.<<
Fair enough.
Huh, I don't think he'd do that. It just doesn't seem like him somehow. I think because Tony has such a short attention span, and relationships are hard for him. Just one girlfriend would take up all his energy.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-30 05:03 am (UTC)And no, I don't think he would. Actually he strikes me as the sort to bait congressional critters about that sort of thing. If Tony were to have a wife and a mistress it'd more likely be a job share sort of thing. "Tony, you are high upkeep, so I think I've found you a mistress so I can take a bath in peace."
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-10-30 07:05 am (UTC)That's true.
>> And yes, the better prospects, age matters less. Of course most of the 'arguments' against, sadly can be just as true for much younger men. <<
Alas, well said.
>> And no, I don't think he would. Actually he strikes me as the sort to bait congressional critters about that sort of thing. <<
And when Tony Stark looks down on your love life, oh the shaaaaame.
Steve could probably kill a campaign with, "I am gravely disappointed in Senator Smith's recent indiscretion. It suggests a lack of the moral character required for good leadership."
>> If Tony were to have a wife and a mistress it'd more likely be a job share sort of thing. "Tony, you are high upkeep, so I think I've found you a mistress so I can take a bath in peace." <<
Yes, exactly. I have read several excellent stories in which Tony and Pepper have an open relationship because each of them has needs the other can't meet. Pepper's are things like "remember my birthday" and "talk about feelings." Tony's are things like "kinky sex" and "talk about particle physics." I've seen this with Pepper/Tony/Bruce and Pepper/Tony/Steve and it's just lovely.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-01 01:34 am (UTC)Steve might pull that if someone did something despicable and it got buried somewhere in the 24 news cycle.
There's one where a straight Coulson and a gay/bi Barton are in a nonsexual romantic relationship and are offered to form a quad with Tony/Pepper.
Pepper needs a male geisha. sorta. Yeah, nothing like sub-atomic physics to get Tony revving.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-01 04:49 am (UTC)Oh yeah, Tony's sense of humor is wild. It's something he has in common with Loki and Johnny Storm.
>> Steve might pull that if someone did something despicable and it got buried somewhere in the 24 news cycle. <<
True. Steve roots for the underdog. People don't expect him to be subtle, because he prefers a straightforward approach; but if the deck is stacked, he will unstack it.
>> There's one where a straight Coulson and a gay/bi Barton are in a nonsexual romantic relationship and are offered to form a quad with Tony/Pepper. <<
Aww! That's adorable. I'd love to see that one.
>> Pepper needs a male geisha. sorta. <<
*laugh* Oh, she really does.
>> Yeah, nothing like sub-atomic physics to get Tony revving. <<
That's why I like Tony/Bruce and Science Bros, both angles work.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-02 03:39 am (UTC)Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-02 04:07 am (UTC)I believe in finding ways for someone's core nature to be an advantage, not a disadvantage. Context is everything.
*chuckle* Besides, I can see Johnny as a disciple of Tony "genius billionaire playboy philanthropist" Stark.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-02 05:58 am (UTC)"I've been trolled. Steve Rogers trolled me. I'm not sure if I'm more proud or traumatized."
"JARVIS, you got Tony's face?"
"Quite. Sir, Pepper is on the phone."
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-04 08:53 am (UTC)True. I figured that Bucky could get away with threatening to paint Steve's shield pink, though.
>> "I've been trolled. Steve Rogers trolled me. I'm not sure if I'm more proud or traumatized." <<
*laugh* I have read some really great renditions of Steve trolling Tony about technology. Doesn't quite work in this series, because here Tony is actively teaching Steve, but it's still amusing.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-04 12:33 pm (UTC)If he's not basted in his time shear, Steve can see his future in modern times. It's not like crime scene photos or muckraking journalism weren't things Steve was exposed to.
What has changed is the context.
Bucky can 'threaten' lots of things. He just would never sharpie a trousersnake on Steve's face.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-11-05 03:50 am (UTC)Oh yes, those are fun.
>> If he's not basted in his time shear, Steve can see his future in modern times. <<
Sometimes that helps him and Bucky to adjust, because they did think of these things, especially with events like the Stark Expo. My headcanon is that they were into science fiction, because of how they responded to things in canon. They usually aren't fazed by far-out things.
Other times it hurts, to see what has been lost, or how the new things are causing problems. Sometimes they just don't know how to cope with the changes. It makes a huge difference, whether they have a supportive environment or not -- that varies widely across fandom. I wanted to show how it might go if Tony was willing to help them catch up, while still letting them hold onto what they needed from the past. So that's why Steve's apartment looks the way it does.
>> It's not like crime scene photos or muckraking journalism weren't things Steve was exposed to.
What has changed is the context. <<
True.
>> Bucky can 'threaten' lots of things. He just would never sharpie a trousersnake on Steve's face. <<
I agree. Bucky's humor isn't cruel, and it's rarely crude. Tony now, he'd do that -- but not to Steve. I think the Avengers are extra careful with each other in terms of not violating someone's body integrity. They've all had too much experience with other people doing that to them.