Story: "Birthday Girl" (Part 8 of 18)
Apr. 30th, 2013 12:41 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," and "Coming Around."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Hulk, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Doombots crash a beautiful spring day in the park. The Avengers clean up the mess. This includes Natasha's rather confused longing for something she never had: a birthday party.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Teamwork. Canon-typical violence. Friendship. Confusion. Hulk is a genius too. Fluff. Making up for lost time. Birthday. Cultural traditions. Games. Gifts. Cake. The cake is never a lie! Tickling. Trust issues. Safety and security. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Personal growth. Family of choice.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7. Skip to Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18.
"Birthday Girl" Part 8
Natasha scrubbed a hand across her face in a futile effort to hide the tears. Then her fingers strayed to the faint scar just above her right wrist, where Hawkeye's arrow had pinned her arm to a wall to prevent Black Widow from killing him. It was fading, washed away by the steady tide of her enhanced body. But they all remembered what it meant.
Sorry, sir, I know SHIELD ordered a kill. I made a different call. Phil could still hear the determination in Hawkeye's tone. Sometimes being one of the good guys came down to knowing exactly when to disobey orders.
"I think -- I think I'd like that for my birthday. You gave me a whole new life that day," Natasha said to Clint.
"That was the idea," Clint said warmly, "just paying it forward." Phil never stopped feeling grateful that Clint had learned the lesson well enough to pass it along at need.
Natasha paused, straightening her back, though Phil had not noticed the subtle slump in it. Then she said, in the most fragile voice Phil had ever heard from her, "Will you come to my party, Clint?"
The gallant archer took her hand and bowed over it ever so slightly. "I would be honored," Clint said in a formal tone. His graceful response reminded Phil that Clint had always fancied himself after Robin Hood.
"I'll make the arrangements," Phil said. The date wasn't on a Saturday, but the Fantastic Four owed the Avengers another favor for the assist with Dr. Doom today.
"Thank you, Phil," said Clint. He ushered his sister to bed.
Phil tiptoed back into the common room. The viewscreen was dark. Shadows draped the walls except for the gleam of tiny base lights here and there along the edges of the floor. Phil could hear Steve's deep, even breathing on the couch. Steve healed fast, but sometimes it took a lot out of him.
Bruce was whimpering in his sleep, caught in a nightmare. Phil hurried to his side. He patted Bruce's hands, stroked his face, and ran a hand through the dark hair. The distressed noises faded away. Gradually the skin contact soothed Bruce back into a more restful state.
Phil breathed a sigh of relief. Not long after moving into the tower, Bruce had hulked out a few times due to nightmares or night terrors. At least now I can settle him down so he can get some decent sleep, Phil thought. Bruce needs all the rest he can get after a transformation.
Then Phil spread some floor cushions between the couch and the loveseat, making a bed for himself so that he could stay close to the two men in case they needed him during the night. His Starkphone lit as he took it out of his pocket.
Sleep if you're tired, Phil. I have the watch, JARVIS wrote.
Phil lay down and pulled a blanket over himself. He was a master spy. He could keep watch even in his sleep.
But it was so nice that he didn't have to, that he had someone else to rely on to keep their location secure.
* * *
Notes:
Disobeying orders is a challenging decision. People are advised to disobey illegal and/or immoral orders. There is rarely much protection either way; damned if you do, damned if you don't, so you might as well make the decision that you can live with. In support of Hawkeye's decision, canon generally indicates that Black Widow was or appeared to be young when he was ordered to kill her, and definitely was a small child when kidnapped by the Red Room, such that advisories regarding child soldiers apply. Also worth considering are the stages of moral development; most people do what they are told, or what others are doing, but toward the top end is reliance on a personal, well-thought-out code of honor.
Paying it forward means doing something good for someone, because somebody else did you a favor earlier. This can apply to anything, but especially to cases where it's impossible to repay the good deed in kind to the same person. Look for opportunities to pay it forward.
Nightmares and night terrors are two kinds of sleep disturbances. They often occur due to stress. If someone has a nightmare, provide loving comfort. There is some debate over whether or not to wake a person from a nightmare. If it doesn't seem too bad (whimpering, twitching) then sometimes a gentle touch will dispel the dream without waking the sleeper. If it's really bad (screaming, thrashing) then it's probably wise to try waking them. Bruce in particular needs to avoid getting too scared, or else Hulk has to come deal with it. Sleep disturbances are common symptoms of PTSD. All the Avengers have nightmares; I think Bruce is the only one with night terrors too. There are tips for dealing with nightmares.
Hypervigilance is a symptom of PTSD and other conditions. All the Avengers, to varying degrees, find it difficult to relax and feel safe, due to their rough pasts and high-risk profession. A sentient, friendly, and fiercely protective home security system helps tremendously; they are all sleeping better with JARVIS always on watch.
[To be continued in Part 9 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Hulk, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Doombots crash a beautiful spring day in the park. The Avengers clean up the mess. This includes Natasha's rather confused longing for something she never had: a birthday party.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Teamwork. Canon-typical violence. Friendship. Confusion. Hulk is a genius too. Fluff. Making up for lost time. Birthday. Cultural traditions. Games. Gifts. Cake. The cake is never a lie! Tickling. Trust issues. Safety and security. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Personal growth. Family of choice.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7. Skip to Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18.
"Birthday Girl" Part 8
Natasha scrubbed a hand across her face in a futile effort to hide the tears. Then her fingers strayed to the faint scar just above her right wrist, where Hawkeye's arrow had pinned her arm to a wall to prevent Black Widow from killing him. It was fading, washed away by the steady tide of her enhanced body. But they all remembered what it meant.
Sorry, sir, I know SHIELD ordered a kill. I made a different call. Phil could still hear the determination in Hawkeye's tone. Sometimes being one of the good guys came down to knowing exactly when to disobey orders.
"I think -- I think I'd like that for my birthday. You gave me a whole new life that day," Natasha said to Clint.
"That was the idea," Clint said warmly, "just paying it forward." Phil never stopped feeling grateful that Clint had learned the lesson well enough to pass it along at need.
Natasha paused, straightening her back, though Phil had not noticed the subtle slump in it. Then she said, in the most fragile voice Phil had ever heard from her, "Will you come to my party, Clint?"
The gallant archer took her hand and bowed over it ever so slightly. "I would be honored," Clint said in a formal tone. His graceful response reminded Phil that Clint had always fancied himself after Robin Hood.
"I'll make the arrangements," Phil said. The date wasn't on a Saturday, but the Fantastic Four owed the Avengers another favor for the assist with Dr. Doom today.
"Thank you, Phil," said Clint. He ushered his sister to bed.
Phil tiptoed back into the common room. The viewscreen was dark. Shadows draped the walls except for the gleam of tiny base lights here and there along the edges of the floor. Phil could hear Steve's deep, even breathing on the couch. Steve healed fast, but sometimes it took a lot out of him.
Bruce was whimpering in his sleep, caught in a nightmare. Phil hurried to his side. He patted Bruce's hands, stroked his face, and ran a hand through the dark hair. The distressed noises faded away. Gradually the skin contact soothed Bruce back into a more restful state.
Phil breathed a sigh of relief. Not long after moving into the tower, Bruce had hulked out a few times due to nightmares or night terrors. At least now I can settle him down so he can get some decent sleep, Phil thought. Bruce needs all the rest he can get after a transformation.
Then Phil spread some floor cushions between the couch and the loveseat, making a bed for himself so that he could stay close to the two men in case they needed him during the night. His Starkphone lit as he took it out of his pocket.
Sleep if you're tired, Phil. I have the watch, JARVIS wrote.
Phil lay down and pulled a blanket over himself. He was a master spy. He could keep watch even in his sleep.
But it was so nice that he didn't have to, that he had someone else to rely on to keep their location secure.
* * *
Notes:
Disobeying orders is a challenging decision. People are advised to disobey illegal and/or immoral orders. There is rarely much protection either way; damned if you do, damned if you don't, so you might as well make the decision that you can live with. In support of Hawkeye's decision, canon generally indicates that Black Widow was or appeared to be young when he was ordered to kill her, and definitely was a small child when kidnapped by the Red Room, such that advisories regarding child soldiers apply. Also worth considering are the stages of moral development; most people do what they are told, or what others are doing, but toward the top end is reliance on a personal, well-thought-out code of honor.
Paying it forward means doing something good for someone, because somebody else did you a favor earlier. This can apply to anything, but especially to cases where it's impossible to repay the good deed in kind to the same person. Look for opportunities to pay it forward.
Nightmares and night terrors are two kinds of sleep disturbances. They often occur due to stress. If someone has a nightmare, provide loving comfort. There is some debate over whether or not to wake a person from a nightmare. If it doesn't seem too bad (whimpering, twitching) then sometimes a gentle touch will dispel the dream without waking the sleeper. If it's really bad (screaming, thrashing) then it's probably wise to try waking them. Bruce in particular needs to avoid getting too scared, or else Hulk has to come deal with it. Sleep disturbances are common symptoms of PTSD. All the Avengers have nightmares; I think Bruce is the only one with night terrors too. There are tips for dealing with nightmares.
Hypervigilance is a symptom of PTSD and other conditions. All the Avengers, to varying degrees, find it difficult to relax and feel safe, due to their rough pasts and high-risk profession. A sentient, friendly, and fiercely protective home security system helps tremendously; they are all sleeping better with JARVIS always on watch.
[To be continued in Part 9 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-30 10:06 am (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2013-04-30 06:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-30 11:43 am (UTC)Aw. That's a beautiful and brave first step - I'm proud of her!
Enjoying your story, as usual ; ) !
Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-01 06:55 am (UTC)Natka and Natasha
Date: 2013-04-30 03:02 pm (UTC)Somehow, I hear both Natka and Natasha in that line. It's Natasha speaking, but there's an underlying current of her vulnerable little girl side that is Natka as well. It's very sweet.
This is somewhat off-topic but I just thought of something and I wonder if you know anything about it. Is there any research that you know of on pets and skin Hunger? As I was reading, my cat was lying on my shoulder snuggling with me, which made me wonder if that kind of touch would help alleviate skin hunger? It's not human touch, but it is very alive and warm and affectionate. Just curious…
Re: Natka and Natasha
Date: 2013-05-01 04:44 am (UTC)"The Man is warm and soft. He usually doesn't mind when I step onto his chest and knead his tummy. Oh, sometimes he pulls up my paws when my claws stick out a little too far, but I think he really likes having me there. Except that he doesn't like it when my tail brushes his face and eyes. Then he lifts me off and goes and splashes water on himself, ugh!
"I've heard him talk about the Woman too, and how I remind him... about her, I guess, not 'remind him of her'. She used to spend a lot of time in her bed before she went away. I would lie at the foot of it, right in front of the warm-breeze-maker. She's been gone for a LONG time now. I think he misses her a lot. He spends more time with me now than before. I mean, sure, I spend more time with him than I used to, but he pays more attention to me on his own, too. Like stopping to stroke me every time he passes by where I'm sitting. Or trying to imitate my language. He does that a lot.
"I think having me around, and being able to stroke me, and all that, makes him feel better."
Re: Natka and Natasha
Date: 2013-05-01 04:50 am (UTC)Re: Natka and Natasha
Date: 2013-08-07 06:03 pm (UTC)Reminds me of the beautiful and painful theme in Diane Duane's _Book of Night With Moon_, thank you...
Re: Natka and Natasha
Date: 2013-08-07 10:42 pm (UTC)Oh, yes. I have thought of that often.
Re: Natka and Natasha
Date: 2013-05-01 07:33 am (UTC)Somehow, I hear both Natka and Natasha in that line. It's Natasha speaking, but there's an underlying current of her vulnerable little girl side that is Natka as well.<<
Yes. As time passes, the age-lines blur a little sometimes. If things come up that require that kind of attention, people can switch down or blend for processing. It's similar to a psychological skill for stacking, shifting, or blending across the parts of any subdivided mental map. So for instance some people can balance id, ego, and superego within a single decision. But you have to know them all well enough to do that.
>> It's very sweet. <<
Yay! I'm glad you like it.
>>Is there any research that you know of on pets and skin Hunger?<<
There haven't been a lot of studies about skin hunger per se, so I tend to doubt it. However, there are more about human/animal relations. It's known that petting furry animals makes most people feel more relaxed, hence the development of therapy animals.
>> As I was reading, my cat was lying on my shoulder snuggling with me, which made me wonder if that kind of touch would help alleviate skin hunger? It's not human touch, but it is very alive and warm and affectionate. <<
It can for some people. Others prefer a different creature, such as a snake or bird. Anyone with a totem animal, kintype, or other strong connection will usually feel good about touching their animal of affinity. However, there's a social aspect of touching other humans that means some people only feel fulfilled by that.
If cat works for you, go for it.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-05-01 03:52 am (UTC)Helga
Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-01 07:14 pm (UTC)W00T! That's quite a compliment.
>>I wanted nonsexual ageplay, and I wanted it to be used in just this way. The Avengers are good people at heart, but so damaged.<<
What got me thinking nonsexual ageplay for them is that they're all broken, most of them from child abuse. It's a way to get around Natasha's "Love is for children" premise, but that applies to more than just her. There's a lot of overlap in how they were broken, so it meshes very well.
>>I have only one problem, and that's the lack of Pepper. Pepper/Tony is my OTP for this fandom, and I wish she were here, but everything else is lovely.<<
This series pretty much drives itself, and it focuses strongly on internal group dynamics. There's very little outside that, although other people figure in occasionally. This version of Tony is shallow and promiscuous when it comes to romance -- I get the impression that he honestly tried with Pepper, but they're better friends than lovers.
If you want an Avengers story with Pepper and Tony that easily reads as Pepperony, try "Saving the Heroes."
>>I completely agree with so much about what you've done here, and your characterizations. Again, you've written the fic I have been wanting to read for ages, and done such a good job of it. When I found it, I thought you must be psychic, seriously.<<
Yay! *chuckle* It's not my psychic talents I'm using here, but rather my literary analytic ones. I mine fanfic to identify things that people want, that they aren't getting. Sometimes I experiment with the new ideas by writing fanfic. Sometimes I load things into my original canons instead. So if you find things here that you like, you can usually find more with a similar flavor elsewhere in my work. The ageplay is new, but given how popular it is, I may try it again elsewhere. The teamwork and family aspects are things I do all the time.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-05-01 09:32 pm (UTC)Then they started to grow on me like lethal fungi. Clint especially, once I started reading in the fandom. Because people do ... awesome things with him that make me grin or, as here, want to hug him and ruffle his hair because he's being so freaking adorable it ought to be illegal. The whole 'didn't kill Nat' thing helps immensely as well, of course. That one took *massive* balls, given Fury's general modus operandi. God alone knows what the bastard might have been inclined to do to Clint, even WITH Phil in his corner.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-02 06:58 am (UTC)Ironically, I had only a vague awareness of their characters before I saw the movies.
>> Bruce was a bit behind them. <<
But I've been a major Hulk fan all along, and Mark Ruffalo is my favorite Bruce-and-Hulk, which takes some doing because I adored the old TV series.
>>And I *completely freaking ignored* Nat and Clint.<<
I loved Natasha immediately, because hot redhead BAMF. Clint took a while. He fades into the background easily.
>>Then they started to grow on me like lethal fungi. Clint especially, once I started reading in the fandom. Because people do ... awesome things with him that make me grin or, as here, want to hug him and ruffle his hair because he's being so freaking adorable it ought to be illegal. <<
Agreed. I love some of what people have written about Clint, more than the original.
>>The whole 'didn't kill Nat' thing helps immensely as well, of course. That one took *massive* balls, given Fury's general modus operandi. God alone knows what the bastard might have been inclined to do to Clint, even WITH Phil in his corner.<<
Yes, this too.
I think Fury causes at least as much trouble as he solves, so I tend to be unkind to him in my writing.
I'm glad I can help unfurl the characters for you.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-02 08:01 am (UTC)Wow, that one is hard to manage. Mostly because Cap has been connected to Wolverine in more than one continuity, and where Cap goes, Tony is only about two steps behind, as far as the comics are concerned. Seriously, they're *this close* to being a canon big-name gay couple. To the point where in one continuity, Cap ends up *marrying* 'Antonia' Stark who was basically just a female Tony. And Wolverine is *everywhere* in Marvel, so his buddies end up showing up off and on. Which is how I learned about them, because I have been a *massive* Wolverine fan since I was, like, eight. (Don't get me started, we'll be here all week).
>>I loved Natasha immediately, because hot redhead BAMF. Clint took a while. He fades into the background easily.<<
I ... really didn't like Nat to start. She got *massive* numbers of negative points for her shenanigans in IM2. Yeah, she helped save Tony's bacon, but it really didn't balance out spying on him for months while he was dying, potentially knowing there was a method to slow down the poisoning (I don't get quite as frothy about that one, because Fury might not have told her) and stabbing Tony in the neck without so much as a by-your-leave.
And she really didn't help herself much at the start of Avengers, so it took me a while to warm up to her. Ironically enough, her freaking the hell out after Hulk chases her around is what finally started to tip the scale for me, because she finally started acting fricking human at that point. I *really* don't mind badass females (Ripley of Aliens fame is more or less my gold standard there) but I don't really like the emotionless automaton types. Which a lot of 'badass' females seem to end up being, because the people who make movies and TV shows are criminally stupid, and think that it's impossible to be a normal woman mentally and emotionally speaking and still manage to kick serious ass. Gah.
Clint at least came into the game with positive points, thanks to his cameo in Thor, even if he was still mostly a complete nonentity other than his comment about liking Thor. It also helped, at least for me, watching it the second time 'round knowing that Erik was able to fight Loki's control somewhat, which made the Clint/Loki interactions a hell of a lot more interesting. That 'What do you see' 'My next target' 'what do you need' 'A diversion. And an eyeball' thing takes on WHOLE new meanings. Especially with Clint staring unblinkingly dead at Loki the entire time. Makes it hella easy to read that as Clint going 'I am going to kill you the first chance I get, you fucker. Fair warning.'
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-02 08:28 am (UTC)I do like Wolverine. *chuckle* His cameo line in X-Men First Class was priceless.
>> Seriously, they're *this close* to being a canon big-name gay couple. <<
*giggle* Yay!
>>To the point where in one continuity, Cap ends up *marrying* 'Antonia' Stark who was basically just a female Tony. <<
I also love genderbending.
>>I ... really didn't like Nat to start. She got *massive* numbers of negative points for her shenanigans in IM2. <<
Oh, I don't like what she does. I like what she is. My sexual preference is for redheads. I wouldn't actually want to get near her, I just enjoy watching. The takedown scene with her creaming all those guys was awesome.
>>Yeah, she helped save Tony's bacon, but it really didn't balance out spying on him for months while he was dying, potentially knowing there was a method to slow down the poisoning (I don't get quite as frothy about that one, because Fury might not have told her) and stabbing Tony in the neck without so much as a by-your-leave.<<
I don't think Natasha has much sense of ethics left. She relies a lot on other people to tell her what's right and wrong. She can see big things like "don't murder little children" but social niceties like "don't do things to people's bodies without their permission" ... well, she's never been anywhere she could have learned that. She was made to be a weapon and a superspy. SHIELD had no reason to mess with that, just change the aim.
>>Ironically enough, her freaking the hell out after Hulk chases her around is what finally started to tip the scale for me, because she finally started acting fricking human at that point.<<
And she's worse than useless at trying to be gentle and take care of someone in pain. Yeah. That was accurate. Poor Bruce, poor Hulk. She did a conspicuous job of getting on their last nerve and snapping it in half.
>>I *really* don't mind badass females (Ripley of Aliens fame is more or less my gold standard there) but I don't really like the emotionless automaton types. Which a lot of 'badass' females seem to end up being, because the people who make movies and TV shows are criminally stupid, and think that it's impossible to be a normal woman mentally and emotionally speaking and still manage to kick serious ass. Gah.<<
Well, yeah, that's why I tend to make my own most of the time. I may not be able to shoot film, but I can write. So Schrodinger's Heroes is my idea of how a good cast should be put together. There's a range of girly, average, and tomboyish women; macho, average, and nurturing men; and Quinn who's genderqueer and Tim the Tentacle Monster who's kind of off the map. I like the variety.
>>It also helped, at least for me, watching it the second time 'round knowing that Erik was able to fight Loki's control somewhat, which made the Clint/Loki interactions a hell of a lot more interesting. <<
Watching it again, though, I also thought about how that applied to Loki. He was obviously coerced: he was in the same situation that Tony was in Golmira, only without someone to help him escape. Loki could have shredded Clint's entire mind, and it probably took more effort not to do that. What he did was pick someone he knew would fight him ... but I think he also picked the kind of liegeman he would've really wanted, left to his own devices. Because what's the snarky Hawkeye but another trickster? And I'm betting the list of people who asked after Hawkeye's needs could be counted on one hand with fingers left over.
I don't think it was being magically brainwashed, alone, that flipped Hawkeye out so much. I think it was mixed messages. So the hate's there, but it's not all by itself.
Eric, well ... they're lucky he didn't reprogram the universe while he was in there. Let's take the genius astrophysicist and dump him into the power-library. Yeah, that's ever going to end well.
>>Makes it hella easy to read that as Clint going 'I am going to kill you the first chance I get, you fucker. Fair warning.'<<
I must admit, I do also like the stories where Clint gets to shoot Loki in the eye. The options are available to get the two of them on the same side, but few people manage to write in convincingly.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-02 11:10 am (UTC)I haven't actually seen that movie yet. Mostly because it has a 'young' Erik and Charles, and I am WAY too used to the older versions, and thoroughly unconvinced that the young versions will be any good. But then again, I threw a similar tantrum when Star Trek 2009 was being announced and they told us it was going to be the gang, but young. And when I finally broke down and watched it, I *loved* it. So who knows.
>> Oh, I don't like what she does. I like what she is.<<
Ahhh, gotcha. Yeah, I have much the same thing going with Wolverine. I love the guy, even the short, hairy versions pre-movies, but you couldn't PAY me enough to get within ten miles of him if he actually existed.
>>Watching it again, though, I also thought about how that applied to Loki.<<
No *shit*. As thoroughly terrifying as that shark's head grin of his was when he first arrived, it was massively undercut within seconds once you got a good look at him and realized that he looked like complete, utter shit. I mean, he looked like he hadn't slept in a week, or something. Or was sick. Or both.
And there was the lovely little chat when the film opens (the 'the tesseract has awakened' thing) and the 'chat' between Loki and the blue dude, which, between the two, made it pretty freaking clear that *some* sort of freaky shit was going down. Not to mention the fact that Loki somehow went from outright suicidal (he let go of Odin's spear-thingy of his own free will. That, my friends, is straight-up suicide) to ... wanting to conquer Earth, because Thor stole the Asguardian throne from him? What the hell? Yeah, someone was doing some string-pulling there, somehow, whether through torture, or brainwashing, or ... well, something hinky was going on there.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-03 02:57 am (UTC)I enjoyed it ...
>> and I am WAY too used to the older versions, and thoroughly unconvinced that the young versions will be any good. <<
... although I favor the older versions still.
>>But then again, I threw a similar tantrum when Star Trek 2009 was being announced and they told us it was going to be the gang, but young. And when I finally broke down and watched it, I *loved* it. So who knows.<<
I rather liked the idea of branching off into a different timestream. The new Spock is marvelous, the new Uhura hot, the others okay.
>>Yeah, I have much the same thing going with Wolverine. I love the guy, even the short, hairy versions pre-movies, but you couldn't PAY me enough to get within ten miles of him if he actually existed.<<
*laugh* I dunno, I could probably charm Wolverine with blunt honesty. There just aren't many people around who cut the social bullshit. He can be a dick, but at least you always know where you stand with him.
>>As thoroughly terrifying as that shark's head grin of his was when he first arrived, it was massively undercut within seconds once you got a good look at him and realized that he looked like complete, utter shit. I mean, he looked like he hadn't slept in a week, or something. Or was sick. Or both.<<
Yeah, let's prop up the torture victim and send him out to justify being allowed to live. Great idea.
And nobody at the time clocked it well enough to do anything about it. Phil knew but was already embroiled in a fight by then. *wince* "You lack conviction" is right up there with "I will tase you and watch Supernanny while you drool into the carpet." How could Loki possibly have conviction when he's been forbidden to be himself for his entire life? And then further abused, and then tortured. And expected to remain pleasing anyhow.
Can't blame him for finally saying "fuck that noise." I disapprove of dragging in innocent victims, but well, what other role model has he ever had?
>>And there was the lovely little chat when the film opens (the 'the tesseract has awakened' thing) and the 'chat' between Loki and the blue dude, which, between the two, made it pretty freaking clear that *some* sort of freaky shit was going down.<<
The "no barren moon" speech made it clear that Loki was still acting under duress, not just having been threatened in advance. They still had a way to hurt him any time, any place.
>> Not to mention the fact that Loki somehow went from outright suicidal (he let go of Odin's spear-thingy of his own free will. That, my friends, is straight-up suicide) <<
Agreed, and that's something I hope to address if the series gets that far. Odin's rejection was one of the more garish examples of abuse. That was clearly the point where Loki realized that no matter what he did, it was never going to be good enough for Odin, so he might as well just quit trying.
>>to ... wanting to conquer Earth, because Thor stole the Asguardian throne from him? What the hell? Yeah, someone was doing some string-pulling there, somehow, whether through torture, or brainwashing, or ... well, something hinky was going on there.<<
It didn't make much sense, without someone else providing the impetus.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-03 03:43 am (UTC)The new Spock took my freaking *breath* away. As did tne new Kirk. There was just something about the vicious, almost feral 'no holds barred' personalities that I liked in both cases. Even if the contemplation of the sheer hell they would unleash on the universe makes me shiver in dread. I can tell you one thing, the whole Khan fuckup will NEVER happen in the new universe, because Spock and Kirk would just straight up kill the bastard, none of that exile bullshit.
>>*laugh* I dunno, I could probably charm Wolverine with blunt honesty.<<
Trust me, that's not where my problem comes in. I *adore* that about him. My problem comes from the fact that I have ... issues ... when it comes to aggressive, dominant/domineering men with unpredictable tempers. Much as I love him on paper, in person Wolverine would have *every* red flag I've got raised.
>>And nobody at the time clocked it well enough to do anything about it. Phil knew but was already embroiled in a fight by then.<<
Actually, I don't think Phil knew. The only people who saw Loki at his shitty worst that *didn't* end up dead or brainwashed were Fury and Hill. And for once, I don't think there was a Fury-style plot afoot, because things were moving fast as hell, people were getting shot at and actually shot, shit was blowing up, etc. Add in the fact that Loki isn't human, and I seriously doubt 'you know, Loki looked like shit. Maybe he's being brainwashed?' occurred to either of them at all, nevermind strongly enough to mention it to anyone else. By the time Phil actually laid eyes on Loki, his appearance had improved somewhat, so he looked a lot less like the walking dead.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-04 11:14 pm (UTC)Feral is quite close, since both of them lost parents at an early age.
>> Even if the contemplation of the sheer hell they would unleash on the universe makes me shiver in dread. <<
Essentially what we have here is a dark!fic AU of the original series. I think that's a very interesting place to go ...
>> I can tell you one thing, the whole Khan fuckup will NEVER happen in the new universe, because Spock and Kirk would just straight up kill the bastard, none of that exile bullshit. <<
... and I've heard that Khan is supposed to appear, which disappoints me. I would prefer to take this AU in new directions rather than try to redo old favorites too closely. *ponder* Although it would be interesting if they simply killed Khan right up front and then some other thing went horribly wrong.
>>My problem comes from the fact that I have ... issues ... when it comes to aggressive, dominant/domineering men with unpredictable tempers. Much as I love him on paper, in person Wolverine would have *every* red flag I've got raised.<<
Fair enough. I have limits in that direction, but mine are farther out. I've actually made friends just by not being afraid of people.
>> Actually, I don't think Phil knew. <<
It can be read either way.
>> And for once, I don't think there was a Fury-style plot afoot, because things were moving fast as hell, people were getting shot at and actually shot, shit was blowing up, etc. <<
True.
>> Add in the fact that Loki isn't human, and I seriously doubt 'you know, Loki looked like shit. Maybe he's being brainwashed?' occurred to either of them at all, nevermind strongly enough to mention it to anyone else. <<
Likely so, but it leaves an unfortunate gap in the "how do we stop this guy?" problem-solving routine. If you can identify which enemies will quit being a problem if you offer them a way out, that saves a tremendous amount of work and worry on everyone's part. But it's a rare skill among troubleshooters.
>> By the time Phil actually laid eyes on Loki, his appearance had improved somewhat, so he looked a lot less like the walking dead. <<
Yet Phil still managed to put his finger squarely on one of Loki's core issues, and if he identified the 'what' then the 'why' leads to a limited number of possibilities. And Phil already had an idea of how Thor got messed up, which provides major clues to Loki.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-05 12:04 am (UTC)Uh, no they didn't. Spock still had both mom and dad into his mid to late twenties, which is when the movie takes place. He's still got that feral edge to him, though, because of the differences in how things played out on Vulcan. Instead of his dad being this (by Vulcan standards) oddball weirdo who married a human, he's evidently a *traitor* and Vulcan adults (those kids had to hear the term applied to Amanda from *somewhere*) are calling Amanda a whore, among other things. Which implies a much nastier and more deeply-rooted amount of xenophobia than was apparent (Spock still got looked down on as a halfblood) in the original universe.
Jim on the other hand ... yeah. His mom *clearly* never recovered from losing George the way she did, if the novelization of the movie is to be treated as canon. Not to mention that even if she HAD managed to not wallow in grief, Jim would have been hearing all about his hero dad from everyone, in a situation similar to what Tony had to deal with about Steve.
And Pike handled dealing with Jim badly. I got the distinct impression the only reason Jim didn't punch him in the face was because he wasn't quite drunk enough to think that would be a swell idea. He gives Pike a positively *poisonous* look for it, though.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-05 07:45 pm (UTC)I count it as early because Vulcans live longer than humans. Most people read Spock's age as if he were human, but he's not. He's 'younger' inside than a human of the same age would be.
In the original series, both Jim and Spock had their parents to shape their lives, and okay, the relationships were sometimes rocky but at least there was a level of stability there. In the reboot, Jim lost his father at birth and Spock lost his mother during the movie, which is later than early childhood but still a lot earlier than the original. And it ripped him to ribbons, which started affecting the plot immediately. So that's why I count it.
>>Which implies a much nastier and more deeply-rooted amount of xenophobia than was apparent (Spock still got looked down on as a halfblood) in the original universe.<<
True. That makes me wonder if T'Pring is still in the picture; very possibly not.
>>Jim on the other hand ... yeah. His mom *clearly* never recovered from losing George the way she did, if the novelization of the movie is to be treated as canon.<<
I gathered that from the movie. *ponder* Which is essentially the same scene as Howard Stark breaking from having gone down with Steve on the radio. Some people, like Peggy, manage to get up from that. Some don't.
>>And Pike handled dealing with Jim badly.<<
Let's hear it for Christopher Pike's A+ parenting.
>> I got the distinct impression the only reason Jim didn't punch him in the face was because he wasn't quite drunk enough to think that would be a swell idea. He gives Pike a positively *poisonous* look for it, though. <<
Yeah.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-05 10:23 pm (UTC)Ahhh, gotcha. *nods* I can see that, and even agree, but Spock was showing a feral edge *long* before he lost his mother (that beat-down he gave to that bully in school). So it was already there by the time he lost his mom ... losing her just made it ten billion times worse.
>>True. That makes me wonder if T'Pring is still in the picture; very possibly not.<<
I know for a fact she isn't. Because Spock was in an apparently serious relationship with Uhura. Which he would not have been if he had a girl waiting for him on Vulcan. More, it was apparently a largely human style relationship, because she was physically affectionate with him human-style, compared to how Original Series Amanda and Sarek acted (their relationship seemed to be entirely Vulcan). Which has all sorts of interesting implications of its own.
On top of that, Spock's relationship with his father is downright fluffy, sweet and cute compared to what it was in the Original Series. His surprise at Spock's telling the Vulcan Council to go fuck itself aside, Sarek was very, very supportive of Spock throughout the movie, which makes me suspect that in the face of the increased xenophobia, he 'closed ranks' around his family.
And while I'm on the subject of the council scene ... the fact that Spock chose to wear one of his mother's knitted sweaters (or, if she didn't make it, just human style clothes in general) instead of traditional Vulcan attire speaks *volumes*.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-06 02:02 am (UTC)I agree that reboot Spock is edgier than TOS Spock, and was even before his mother died. Of course, he's also younger: TOS Spock had considerably more time to grow into himself and learn how to navigate both cultures. But I think Amanda was a tremendous mellowing influence. TOS Sarek was a dick and she put up with him and even managed to modulate his dickishness slightly. Removing that influence from reboot Spock at a much earlier time is going to cause alllll kinds of problems.
>>I know for a fact she isn't. Because Spock was in an apparently serious relationship with Uhura. Which he would not have been if he had a girl waiting for him on Vulcan.<<
Okay, that's a good point; not specified in canon, but a logical conclusion.
>> More, it was apparently a largely human style relationship, because she was physically affectionate with him human-style, compared to how Original Series Amanda and Sarek acted (their relationship seemed to be entirely Vulcan). Which has all sorts of interesting implications of its own. <<
Yeah, that's fascinating, and I hadn't really thought about those implications. Fun!
>> On top of that, Spock's relationship with his father is downright fluffy, sweet and cute compared to what it was in the Original Series. <<
True. I like the reboot Sarek more as a person.
>>And while I'm on the subject of the council scene ... the fact that Spock chose to wear one of his mother's knitted sweaters (or, if she didn't make it, just human style clothes in general) instead of traditional Vulcan attire speaks *volumes*.<<
I loved that scene because Spock managed to out-Vulcan the Vulcans. They really came off looking like illogical bigots a hair's breadth from completely losing their composure. He was so suave, so Spock in that scene. *glee*
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-06 02:55 am (UTC)Especially with Jim encouraging and exacerbating that feral edge
>> Okay, that's a good point; not specified in canon, but a logical conclusion.<<
It's something very easy to miss unless you know a fair bit about Vulcans in canon. They don't flirt or date, mostly because the vast majority of them are bonded to a future mate at the age of seven, and dallying with someone who can never be their mate is Not Logical. So if Spock had been bonded to T'pring, he wouldn't have entered *any* other relationship.
>>Yeah, that's fascinating, and I hadn't really thought about those implications. Fun!<<
I've thought about the new crew and their relationships, personalities, and lives a lot. It's a fun as hell exercise, trying to figure out what changed, where, and why.
>>I loved that scene because Spock managed to out-Vulcan the Vulcans. They really came off looking like illogical bigots a hair's breadth from completely losing their composure. He was so suave, so Spock in that scene. *glee*<<
Yeah, that entire scene was love. I have this feeling that Spock knew exactly what was coming, and dressed/acted accordingly. That he was, possibly, trolling them just a little. Not that they didn't deserve it.
Also, I kind of squeed when he told them to 'live long and prosper' in a tone that was the clearest 'fuck you and the horse you rode in on' that a Vulcan has EVER had. EVER. That right there was when I fell in love with Quinto's version of Spock, because *damn*, but it takes some balls to do that!
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-08 09:42 pm (UTC)Yeah, these two guys are going to heterodyne more than they buffer, so it's a very different dynamic than TOS. Poor Bones, he's the only brakes they've got between the three of them, and he's on rebound from a much-fresher broken relationship.
Yeah, that can't possibly go wrong.
>>It's something very easy to miss unless you know a fair bit about Vulcans in canon.<<
I knew about it, just didn't put the pieces together.
>>I have this feeling that Spock knew exactly what was coming, and dressed/acted accordingly. That he was, possibly, trolling them just a little. Not that they didn't deserve it.<<
That was actually something I saw as deeply in-character, because TOS Spock had such a wonderfully subtle way of trolling the hell out of people.
>>Also, I kind of squeed when he told them to 'live long and prosper' in a tone that was the clearest 'fuck you and the horse you rode in on' that a Vulcan has EVER had. EVER. That right there was when I fell in love with Quinto's version of Spock, because *damn*, but it takes some balls to do that!<<
Well, that's the point: he wants them to be around to see him win, to see the epic brain walk off and hand all the benefits to the humans because the Vulcans were being too illogical to associate with.
ZOT! ZING! Game to Spock.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-08 11:33 pm (UTC)As someone else put it, Spock has a 'scorched earth, burn-it-down and salt the earth' policy, Jim has an 'I refuse to lose' attitude. They also both have rather explosive tempers and mommy issues. They are going to spend their entire career bouncing between trying to kill each other and wiping the floor with anyone stupid enough to piss them off. Because as much as they spen the first 3/4ths of the movie trying to beat each other up or actually kill each other, once they beamed onto the Narada together, they were so in synch it was scary.
They're going to give Starfleet Command coronaries. And migraines.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-10 06:47 am (UTC)Well framed.
>> They also both have rather explosive tempers and mommy issues. <<
Plus daddy issues, honestly.
>> They are going to spend their entire career bouncing between trying to kill each other and wiping the floor with anyone stupid enough to piss them off. Because as much as they spent the first 3/4ths of the movie trying to beat each other up or actually kill each other, once they beamed onto the Narada together, they were so in synch it was scary. <<
It was a little eerie, watching them flow into each other.
*ponder* I think they melted together a lot faster than TOS because the tension was higher, sooner, and Spock had a fresh gaping hole in his life.
>> They're going to give Starfleet Command coronaries. And migraines. <<
And ulcers. Heh.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-07 10:50 pm (UTC)η: And maybe watching reboot ST as well!
(BTW, Ysabet, if you haven't caught on to my obscure language/HTML-geek habitual joke there yet, consider the usual blog abbreviation for "Edited To Add".)
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-08 07:07 am (UTC)Yeah, that's a winner.
>> I'd assumed that (movie!Avengerverse!)Loki was just being (Norse-trad!)Loki. <<
Even in Norse tradition, Loki often gets fucked over for no good reason. It's no wonder he went sour from it eventually.
What Odin did to him in the movies was rampant abuse, hence Loki's suicide attempt. So Loki was an emotional wreck when the Chitauri got ahold of them. The implication is that they used assorted torture, brainwashing, and threats to pressure him into attacking Earth. Loki being Loki, he presumably had a plan of his own as well, but the mess he made of the invasion strongly implied that he didn't want the Chitauri to succeed.
>> This, now... may be a reason to go moviewatching. <<
I'm always amused when my fanfic encourages people to pick up the original canon.