Story: "Coming Around" (Part 12 of 14)
Apr. 20th, 2013 12:10 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," and "Splash."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Bruce Banner, Hulk.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child/domestic abuse. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Phil shows Bruce the cute pictures of the team helping Hulk clean up after the bilgesnipe fight. Bruce finds the whole idea more confusing than pleasing.
Notes: Teamwork. Friendship. Flangst. Hurt/comfort. Dysfunctional relationship dynamics. Trust issues. Safety and security. ALL THE FEELS. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Personal growth. Family of choice.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11. Skip to Part 14.
"Coming Around" Part 12
"Just humor me here and think about life in the tower," Phil said. "You and Tony argue about science, but you don't start actual fights over it. Clint and Natasha squabble like siblings, and they're comfortable with that. Tony and Steve tease each other. Clint and Tony snark about things. You and Betty have had a few disputes too. Everyone argues with me about mission-related things sometimes."
"So?" Bruce said.
"So, that's natural human interaction, Bruce," said Phil. "It doesn't mean we dislike each other. It doesn't mean we devalue each other's opinions. It just means we see things differently sometimes. That's okay. In fact, it's valuable, because one person may spot a solution that nobody else does. These are skills you can work on developing, if you're not fully comfortable with them yet. Think of this stuff like peer review in a journal, if that helps."
"Maybe a little," Bruce said tentatively. Phil was glad to see him coming toward a more positive direction.
"We're not perfect, nobody is, but we do our best," Phil said. "All I ask is that you listen to our perspectives the way we listen to yours ... and maybe give us credit for having a little more sense than, say, General Ross."
Bruce chuckled a bit at that. "All right, I'll try. That low bar is pretty much lying flat on the ground," he said.
"Yes, it is," Phil agreed. He didn't mention Bruce's father. That bar was sunk in a pretty deep ditch. "So if you watch, you'll see us step over it routinely. We're a good team, Bruce. Try to have a little faith in that."
"I'm a scientist, Phil. Faith is off my charts," Bruce said. "Wandering around in uncharted territory is a good way to get hurt."
Phil recalled that Bruce favored hard sciences -- biology, chemistry, astronomy -- and some theoretical physics. The soft sciences such as psychology and sociology proved more slippery for him. No wonder he found this so painful and confusing. Hulk wasn't readily quantified with physics and chemistry, and team bonding even less so.
"I know this hurts, Bruce, but I need you give it serious consideration and not just bury it again," Phil said. "You're part of the team." He tapped gently on Bruce's chest. "Two teams, actually, since you've got Hulk to deal with on the inside and the rest of the Avengers on the outside. That takes work. Healthy relationships don't just 'happen.' People have to build them and maintain them."
"Not really my area of expertise," Bruce said. He looked down at his hands, opening and closing them.
"I know," Phil said, "but not all problems come down to guns and gamma rays. Sometimes the messy personal stuff matters too."
Bruce didn't argue this time, just picked idly at the velour comforter. Phil was so strongly reminded of Hulk and the pothole that he had to hide a smile. "Whatever," Bruce said.
"I know that tone of voice," Phil said. "You're getting bored with all this talk about relationship dynamics. Do you feel well enough to get up and work?"
"Not really. I'm not as sore as usual, but this isn't a relaxing conversation, Phil. My head is all in a muddle. I don't think I could concentrate on anything," Bruce said.
"Shall I tell you a story?" Phil offered.
"I'm sure you have better things to do than sit with me," Bruce said. His hand stilled against the comforter. "You can leave me alone. I'll be fine."
* * *
Notes:
Explore the value of different perspectives.
Compare and contrasts the hard and soft sciences.
Healthy relationships don't just happen. This applies both to friendship and romance. There are tips for creating a good relationship and repairing a bad relationship.
Bruce tends to devalue himself, and therefore discourage others from spending time or resources on him. Without an accurate sense of self-value, it can be hard to value others accurately. Take steps to cultivate self-value.
[To be continued in Part 13 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Bruce Banner, Hulk.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child/domestic abuse. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Phil shows Bruce the cute pictures of the team helping Hulk clean up after the bilgesnipe fight. Bruce finds the whole idea more confusing than pleasing.
Notes: Teamwork. Friendship. Flangst. Hurt/comfort. Dysfunctional relationship dynamics. Trust issues. Safety and security. ALL THE FEELS. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Personal growth. Family of choice.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11. Skip to Part 14.
"Coming Around" Part 12
"Just humor me here and think about life in the tower," Phil said. "You and Tony argue about science, but you don't start actual fights over it. Clint and Natasha squabble like siblings, and they're comfortable with that. Tony and Steve tease each other. Clint and Tony snark about things. You and Betty have had a few disputes too. Everyone argues with me about mission-related things sometimes."
"So?" Bruce said.
"So, that's natural human interaction, Bruce," said Phil. "It doesn't mean we dislike each other. It doesn't mean we devalue each other's opinions. It just means we see things differently sometimes. That's okay. In fact, it's valuable, because one person may spot a solution that nobody else does. These are skills you can work on developing, if you're not fully comfortable with them yet. Think of this stuff like peer review in a journal, if that helps."
"Maybe a little," Bruce said tentatively. Phil was glad to see him coming toward a more positive direction.
"We're not perfect, nobody is, but we do our best," Phil said. "All I ask is that you listen to our perspectives the way we listen to yours ... and maybe give us credit for having a little more sense than, say, General Ross."
Bruce chuckled a bit at that. "All right, I'll try. That low bar is pretty much lying flat on the ground," he said.
"Yes, it is," Phil agreed. He didn't mention Bruce's father. That bar was sunk in a pretty deep ditch. "So if you watch, you'll see us step over it routinely. We're a good team, Bruce. Try to have a little faith in that."
"I'm a scientist, Phil. Faith is off my charts," Bruce said. "Wandering around in uncharted territory is a good way to get hurt."
Phil recalled that Bruce favored hard sciences -- biology, chemistry, astronomy -- and some theoretical physics. The soft sciences such as psychology and sociology proved more slippery for him. No wonder he found this so painful and confusing. Hulk wasn't readily quantified with physics and chemistry, and team bonding even less so.
"I know this hurts, Bruce, but I need you give it serious consideration and not just bury it again," Phil said. "You're part of the team." He tapped gently on Bruce's chest. "Two teams, actually, since you've got Hulk to deal with on the inside and the rest of the Avengers on the outside. That takes work. Healthy relationships don't just 'happen.' People have to build them and maintain them."
"Not really my area of expertise," Bruce said. He looked down at his hands, opening and closing them.
"I know," Phil said, "but not all problems come down to guns and gamma rays. Sometimes the messy personal stuff matters too."
Bruce didn't argue this time, just picked idly at the velour comforter. Phil was so strongly reminded of Hulk and the pothole that he had to hide a smile. "Whatever," Bruce said.
"I know that tone of voice," Phil said. "You're getting bored with all this talk about relationship dynamics. Do you feel well enough to get up and work?"
"Not really. I'm not as sore as usual, but this isn't a relaxing conversation, Phil. My head is all in a muddle. I don't think I could concentrate on anything," Bruce said.
"Shall I tell you a story?" Phil offered.
"I'm sure you have better things to do than sit with me," Bruce said. His hand stilled against the comforter. "You can leave me alone. I'll be fine."
* * *
Notes:
Explore the value of different perspectives.
Compare and contrasts the hard and soft sciences.
Healthy relationships don't just happen. This applies both to friendship and romance. There are tips for creating a good relationship and repairing a bad relationship.
Bruce tends to devalue himself, and therefore discourage others from spending time or resources on him. Without an accurate sense of self-value, it can be hard to value others accurately. Take steps to cultivate self-value.
[To be continued in Part 13 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-20 06:25 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2013-04-20 09:55 am (UTC)Bruce can't ask. He's far enough along in the relationship to tolerate Phil taking care of him, more often than not. He responds to it; he finds it soothing when he doesn't feel well. But Bruce hasn't come as far as enjoying it yet. Actively requesting help just isn't going to occur to him for a while yet. He doesn't feel like he deserves any of the attention or care he gets.
Fortunately Phil is very observant, and good at coaxing stubborn people into accepting his help.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-04-20 12:14 pm (UTC)I have a dear friend who long ago decided that she wasn't going to let being walking wounded prevent her from loving. She doesn't trust anyone, but she acts as though she does. She loves fiercely and protectively. And I live in fear of being the next person to let her down.
And for those who know my housemate - my housemate is far more healed and together than this other friend, though I live in fear of hurting her as well. And of hurting my similarly injured husband.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-04-21 07:19 am (UTC)Too true.
>> I have a dear friend who long ago decided that she wasn't going to let being walking wounded prevent her from loving. <<
That's a good thing.
>> She doesn't trust anyone, but she acts as though she does. <<
Yes. This is a crucial distinction that I often make, that most people do not: Trust is an emotion, something you feel. Reliance is an action, something you do. It's uncomfortable not being able to trust people; but it's not being able to rely on people that makes the really serious problem. You can behave-as-if whether or not you feel the emotion. But if you can't even get that far, you're pretty screwed.
This is further complicated by the fact that many people are stuck in situations where those around them are not trustworthy. It's not always possible to evade that. Letting your guard down then is dangerous. And everyone will still condemn you for having "trust issues." It's a mess.
Most of the Avengers have trust issues precisely because they've been betrayed, deeply and terribly and repeatedly, often by those who should have been most invested in taking good care of them.
It's a wonder that Phil can get a hope in edgewise. He's very persistent though.
>> She loves fiercely and protectively. And I live in fear of being the next person to let her down. <<
Intent matters tremendously. Everyone makes mistakes; even caring people hurt each other sometimes. But the good people make up for the mistakes and fix what they can.
>> And for those who know my housemate - my housemate is far more healed and together than this other friend, though I live in fear of hurting her as well. And of hurting my similarly injured husband. <<
It's understandable. But to be alive is to be vulnerable. I've actually got a whole poem that deals with this theme, "Stained."
(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-20 06:26 am (UTC)You're welcome!
Date: 2013-04-21 05:50 am (UTC)Of course not. You couldn't pry Phil out of that room with a crowbar.
If Bruce threw an absolute tantrum about needing privacy, about the most he'd get would be somebody sitting outside the door. The team is meshed enough at this point that they aren't comfortable abandoning someone who's not in good health at the moment. In the beginning, Bruce got away with slinking into his quarters as soon as he was mobile after a transformation and hiding from everyone. That's not the case anymore.
>> (Someone explain ohana...) <<
I actually haven't used that in this series yet, although it may come up later. I do often use it in Schrodinger's Heroes because Morgan is Hawai'ian. You can see an example in "THE Woman."
>> Story time!!! :D *claps hands excitedly* <<
Yep, Phil is good at telling stories.
>> Thanks for the updates :) <<
*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service!
:)
Date: 2013-04-20 07:25 am (UTC)Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-20 01:11 pm (UTC)Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-20 09:30 pm (UTC)Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-21 08:54 am (UTC)Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-21 06:16 am (UTC)Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-21 05:44 am (UTC)Thank you so much! That's good to hear.
>> They're always so emotionally educational! And Fluffy! <<
That's a core concept for this series -- to show characters working through real problems, in a context entertaining enough to keep people reading.
Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-21 05:58 am (UTC)Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-21 06:43 pm (UTC)Re: :)
Date: 2013-04-21 09:18 pm (UTC)May the Fourth be with you. And maybe I'll open a fifth. ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-21 09:50 am (UTC)I completely, totally, and utterly adore this entire series. I have been reading it avidly since I stumbled across the start of Love is for Children on AO3 and followed the link here a few weeks back. Reading it has been a real treat, and become something of an event 'ooh, it's past midnight! Quick, check ysabet's page for an update!'
I've spent much of the series alternating between wanting to hug the various Avengers and tuck them somewhere safe, and punching their antagonists in the face for the damage that has been done to them in their lives.
Speaking of, can we PLEASE burn General Ross in effigy?
I am also dearly hoping that Thor somehow gets brought into this, because that boy needs help as much as the rest. Odin's got a LOT to answer for with him alone.
It helps that, as you pointed out in Love is for Children, where Thor goes, Loki follows, and a) Loki needs even more help than Thor and b) that whole ... thing ... is a boil that the team as a whole and Clint in particular need to lance, otherwise it's going to fester and fester and fester until it *really* fucks them up. Also, it'd be interesting as hell to see if Thor and Loki could even understand the concept of game night and agree to play along.
Thank you!
Date: 2013-04-22 01:45 am (UTC)Wow, that is awesome! Several folks have done that. It's always exciting to hear.
>>I completely, totally, and utterly adore this entire series. I have been reading it avidly since I stumbled across the start of Love is for Children on AO3 and followed the link here a few weeks back.<<
Yay! I'm happy that it's attracting such a following.
>> Reading it has been a real treat, and become something of an event 'ooh, it's past midnight! Quick, check ysabet's page for an update!' <<
Yes, I usually manage to update after midnight my time, unless the net is down or something else interferes.
>> I've spent much of the series alternating between wanting to hug the various Avengers and tuck them somewhere safe, and punching their antagonists in the face for the damage that has been done to them in their lives. <<
I try to include some of each in the stories. Phil's constant refrain of "I want to punch/strangle/tase/etc. so-and-so for hurting one of my team" definitely plays into the ass-whooping of anyone who messes with them currently. Fresh villains tend to get proxied for dead abusers. It's very cathartic.
>> Speaking of, can we PLEASE burn General Ross in effigy? <<
So far in this series I've sent him to jail. If he crawls out, well ... legitimate target and all that jazz.
If you like Thunder!whump though, check out the epilogue of "Safe Keeping." Some say the world will end in fire, some in ice ...
>>I am also dearly hoping that Thor somehow gets brought into this, because that boy needs help as much as the rest. Odin's got a LOT to answer for with him alone.<<
I do plan to add Thor if I have time to take the series that far. Let's hear it for Odin's A+ parenting. It's done a great deal more damage than most people realize, which is by no means contained to Asgard or Asgardians.
>> It helps that, as you pointed out in Love is for Children, where Thor goes, Loki follows, and a) Loki needs even more help than Thor and <<
Yea, verily.
>> b) that whole ... thing ... is a boil that the team as a whole and Clint in particular need to lance, otherwise it's going to fester and fester and fester until it *really* fucks them up. <<
Absolutely. And they are all connected now, by various means, some positive and others twisted or downright toxic. Ironically Loki is the only person who would know anything about some of that.
>> Also, it'd be interesting as hell to see if Thor and Loki could even understand the concept of game night and agree to play along. <<
I think it will be harder for Thor to grasp. He tends to play everything so straight, he scarcely understands anything outside of ordinary reality, even after growing up with Loki.
Loki is a liquid. He takes the shape of his container. Pour him into game night and you'll get little-Loki right off.
Which ... yyyyyeah. World's Mightiest Uncle is gonna need a mop and bucket for that mess.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-04-22 04:47 am (UTC)Ohhhhh, yay! And yeah, Odin needs some serious Cognitive Recalibration, as Natasha phrased it.
>>I think it will be harder for Thor to grasp. He tends to play everything so straight, he scarcely understands anything outside of ordinary reality, even after growing up with Loki.
Loki is a liquid. He takes the shape of his container. Pour him into game night and you'll get little-Loki right off.
Which ... yyyyyeah. World's Mightiest Uncle is gonna need a mop and bucket for that mess.<<
You definitely have a point with Thor, though I do tend to believe he's a *bit* more intelligent and discerning than his boisterous, booming, hammer-wielding front lends people to believe. A bit. As someone pointed out, Loki's been a magician *how* long, and the whole 'make doubles of myself for people to charge at in battle' thing has been a part of his repetoir for a LONG time ... and Thor still fell for it. Twice, once in Thor and once in Avengers. So yeah, a bit smarter, but not too much so!
And yeah, they're definitely going to be needing some heavy-duty repair equipment when it comes to putting Loki back together again AND getting him and the team to play nicely together.
Especially if, in your series, the legends about Loki are actually true (ie: him being Sleipnir's mother). That's gonna leave a few marks, I think!
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-04-22 06:50 pm (UTC)I have some ideas for hitting Odin with a cluehammer. Not that I think it would make him a decent person, I just want to hit him back for what he did to Thor and Loki.
>>You definitely have a point with Thor, though I do tend to believe he's a *bit* more intelligent and discerning than his boisterous, booming, hammer-wielding front lends people to believe. A bit. <<
There are different kinds of intelligence, and that's something I've written into the core of this series. So let's see, Thor ...
Bodily-kinesthetic is his genius stat. Thor is a bod god and can easily do all kinds of physical things.
His naturalistic intelligence is probably good: put him in a familiar wilderness and he likely knows what's edible, what's dangerous, and where to find shelter. Spatial is probably good too.
Musical intelligence, maybe.
Interpersonal is variable -- he's popular with people like himself, but not deft enough to accommodate differences easily. Thor doesn't see how things are going wrong with Loki.
Linguistic intelligence is low. He flubs even with Allspeak helping. *wince*
Intrapersonal is also low, basically went from 0 to 1 in the movie Thor.
Logical-mathematical and existential intelligence, forget it.
Thor isn't stupid. There are things he's really quite good at -- combat, tactics, short-term strategy, boisterous socializing, loyalty, etc. There are probably some odd little bits of cultural cleverness that haven't gotten onscreen. But he's just not an intellectual guy, and abstract topics or complex machinations are beyond both his skill and his interest.
>>As someone pointed out, Loki's been a magician *how* long, and the whole 'make doubles of myself for people to charge at in battle' thing has been a part of his repetoir for a LONG time ... and Thor still fell for it. Twice, once in Thor and once in Avengers.<<
It's a painfully accurate example of what happens when you have one strong child and one smart child, and then set them at each other like dogs in a fighting pit.
Thor and Loki will absolutely never be able to compete equally in their areas of expertise because their ability levels are a parsec apart. Thor will always be able to beat Loki in a fight with a few smacks. Loki will always be able to think rings around Thor. And they've been set up to do exactly that, instead of cooperating. What little teamwork they managed to scrabble up was based on Thor's charisma and Loki's wits, and it didn't take long for Odin to sabotage even that.
But if they could get together properly? They'd be unbeatable. A sensible person would've worked them in tandem all along, because between the two of them, Thor and Loki cover all the bases. Their strengths and weaknesses are mirrored.
>>And yeah, they're definitely going to be needing some heavy-duty repair equipment when it comes to putting Loki back together again AND getting him and the team to play nicely together.<<
And attempting to hammer some kind of clue about those things through Thor's thick skull.
>>Especially if, in your series, the legends about Loki are actually true (ie: him being Sleipnir's mother). That's gonna leave a few marks, I think!<<
I have thought about that, if the series gets that far. Sleipnir appeared in Thor so I'm treating that as canon. Other aspects of mythic-Loki, I don't know -- some of them are really far-out from Marvel-Loki. I'll probably pick and choose, maybe do some more research on Marvel-Loki.
Which also underscores Odin's status as a ratbastard.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-04 10:00 pm (UTC)>>There are different kinds of intelligence, and that's something I've written into the core of this series.<<
Completely agreed, and I agree with your breakdown of Thor's intelligence, but let's face it ... most people don't stop to think about that. And when they meet big, boisterous, mostly book-dumb Thor, they instantly assume that he's stupid, period.
>>But if they could get together properly? They'd be unbeatable.<<
Completely agreed. Between the two of them, they could probably have brought the entirety of the Nine Realms under full Asgardian control, given enough time. Act as benevolent caretakers and allies to the better off realms, and Big Brother for the rowdier or less well off realms.
>>Which also underscores Odin's status as a ratbastard.<<
The Avengers in general and Steve in particular are going to throw an *epic* shit fit when they find out about Sleipnir. *boggles*. I can see that happening in my mind's eye. 'Wait, you're telling us that Sleipnir is your kid ... probably sapient even if he can't talk ... and Odin is forcing him to be a MOUNT?'
Yeah, there's gonna be some temper tantrums thrown when they find out about that. And I can SO see Tony trying to sneak Sleipnir to Earth, Heimdall be damned, because at least on Earth Tony could arrange some nice island for Sleipnir to hang out on or something, with no expectations of being a mount unless he WANTS to be.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-05 07:13 pm (UTC)True, people often overlook it. They think Hulk is stupid -- and miss the fact that he managed to intercept and stop a body at terminal velocity without crushing Tony to jam. They think of Clint as relatively ordinary -- and overlook his grasp of tactics and strategy, along with the subtle calculation of aim.
A team of heroes is more interesting when written with different strengths and weaknesses. I've found that focusing on different ways of thinking yields more dramatic results than merely focusing on the outer skills.
>>The Avengers in general and Steve in particular are going to throw an *epic* shit fit when they find out about Sleipnir. *boggles*.<<
Steve because it's morally wrong; Tony and Bruce-and-Hulk because of imprisonment issues; Phil, Natasha, and Clint because of the child slavery angle. Allllll the fireworks!
>> I can see that happening in my mind's eye. 'Wait, you're telling us that Sleipnir is your kid ... probably sapient even if he can't talk ... and Odin is forcing him to be a MOUNT?' <<
People who practice child abuse usually don't stop. This is just another example of Odin being evil.
>>And I can SO see Tony trying to sneak Sleipnir to Earth, Heimdall be damned, because at least on Earth Tony could arrange some nice island for Sleipnir to hang out on or something, with no expectations of being a mount unless he WANTS to be.<<
If SHIELD is lucky, it will be "sneaking." If not, it will be a very conspicuous jailbreak.
I have thought of this angle, if the story continues that far. It would be fun.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-05 10:11 pm (UTC)Not only did Hulk manage to intercept and not-pulp Tony at terminal velocity, but he also calculated weight and angles with one of the big space whale things (if you are inclined to believe it wasn't a fortunate accident, which I am) and managed to haul it away from a building it was about to crash into. More, he saw that whale coming from *somewhere else*, and stampeded through a floor of the building to get to it before it took the entire building out. (if I'm remembering the sequence of events correctly, anyway ... don't have the movie on right now to confirm). He also went after Loki. Specifically and specially. He had NO reason to be in Stark Tower otherwise ... there really wasn't any fighting at the building itself to attract his attention when he went after Loki. So yeah, this version of Hulk has some brains on him.
Also ... subtle calculation of angles? Yeah, not so much. Angle, velocity of target, wind direction and speed, and probably other factors I don't know about. Which he does *in his head* in a fraction of a second ... frequently without looking straight at his target during the climactic fight. That is fucking impressive as hell. Clint and Steve both are closet math geniuses, because they both do that (it takes skill to calculate angles such that the shield bounces back to him).
>>Allllll the fireworks!<<
Oh god, no kidding. I am getting the mental picture, and it is *not* pretty. Mostly because in my head, Odin is being a condescending dick, because what do these poor, puny mortals know? And I can just *see* things devolving to the point where he gets to experience a 'puny god' moment of his own. With Tony being all 'fuck this noise. C'mon, Reindeer Games. Get your kid and let's get the hell out of this joint. It is for losers.'
In a lot of ways, I can see Tony ending up being the one that helps Loki the most ... mostly because of the lot of them, Tony understands the whole 'never good enough' thing. Plus, when Loki isn't batshit crazy, they have similar levels of snark, and Tony (and Bruce) are smart enough to keep up with Loki, and he's already proven that he *really* doesn't give a shit about how 'dangerous' someone is when he's decided to adopt them.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-07 04:41 am (UTC)Also true. I think Hulk does intuitively what Bruce would do logically, but it still gets the job done.
>> He also went after Loki. <<
Furthermore, Hulk did not immediately pound Loki through the floor. He waited to see what Loki would do. Loki picked a fight by teasing Hulk (never a good idea). Then Hulk flogged him around like a rag doll.
That showed a great deal more restraint than people typically expect from Hulk.
>>So yeah, this version of Hulk has some brains on him.<<
It just gets covered up by various internal and external factors a lot of the time.
>>Which he does *in his head* in a fraction of a second ... frequently without looking straight at his target during the climactic fight. That is fucking impressive as hell.<<
He puts me in mind of River from Firefly.
>> Clint and Steve both are closet math geniuses, because they both do that (it takes skill to calculate angles such that the shield bounces back to him). <<
Yes. I think Steve's grasp of geometry relates to his artistic ability. It's another thing that can be analog instead of digital. And it means that, if Betty explains the math to Steve for things like how to figure jumping onto a train, he should be able to get it.
>>Oh god, no kidding. I am getting the mental picture, and it is *not* pretty. Mostly because in my head, Odin is being a condescending dick, because what do these poor, puny mortals know?<<
I'm definitely inclined to paint Odin as a dick.
>> And I can just *see* things devolving to the point where he gets to experience a 'puny god' moment of his own. With Tony being all 'fuck this noise. C'mon, Reindeer Games. Get your kid and let's get the hell out of this joint. It is for losers.' <<
I'll have to keep those images in mind.
>>In a lot of ways, I can see Tony ending up being the one that helps Loki the most ... mostly because of the lot of them, Tony understands the whole 'never good enough' thing.<<
That's a key part of Tony's understanding, yes. Bruce will help because he's another misunderstood genius, and because he knows what it's like to be so desperate that suicide seems like a good idea. Steve is gentle-hearted enough to give just about anyone a second chance, and he really doesn't like bullies which is going to put Odin square on his bad side. I think all the work that Clint has already done on personal growth will help make it possible for him to deal with Loki, and he's got his observations from earlier too. Natasha may be a sticking point.
>> Plus, when Loki isn't batshit crazy, they have similar levels of snark, and Tony (and Bruce) are smart enough to keep up with Loki, and he's already proven that he *really* doesn't give a shit about how 'dangerous' someone is when he's decided to adopt them. <<
Very true. I think Loki will be intrigued by anyone who's not scared of him.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-07 05:43 am (UTC)Honestly, virtually any meeting between Odin and Tony is never going to end well, because yes, Odin is a dick ... precisely the sort of person that Tony *really* enjoys trolling (like that idiot senator in IM2). It'd probably take all of about five minutes to devolve into the next best thing to an all-out tantrum.
And honestly? At that point, I can see Loki standing off to one side, watching this, watching Tony troll the hell out of Odin and the others putting their two cents into the ring in various ways, and being all 'holy shit.'
And for once, Steve would SO *let* Tony troll his little heart out, because as you pointed out, Steve does NOT like bullies, and won't be inclined to save Odin from the razor edge of Tony's tongue. And Steve's preferred methods of dealing with bullies wouldn't be quite as effective on Odin as they tend to be on your average civilian. Mostly because Odin wouldn't give a shit about the whole 'Captain America' thing, so Steve's 'I am very disappointed in you' shtick would fly right over his head. Would just mean that Steve would have to resort to a solid punch to the jaw.
>>Very true. I think Loki will be intrigued by anyone who's not scared of him.<<
And Tony has already proven to not be afraid of him. 'cause he walked *right up to Loki* in the Tower, calling him out on his shit and flat out telling Loki he's fucked, and not going to win.
On that subject ... I have speculated intensely on WHY the staff whammy didn't work on Tony. I've heard people say it was only because the arc reactor physically blocked access to Tony's heart, which ... I am not entirely convinced of that.
Given that Howard got to play with a piece of the tesseract, and after that developed the (unspecified, in the movie) element that now powers Tony's arc reactor ... I can't help but wonder if Tony has distilled essence of tesseract in his chest, and that's why it didn't work ... the tesseract can't infect itself.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-05-10 03:07 am (UTC)Okay, I have to say this:
Tony's bigger.
>>precisely the sort of person that Tony *really* enjoys trolling (like that idiot senator in IM2).<<
Assclowns. <3 Tony didn't do anything but what the rest of us have wished we could do.
>> It'd probably take all of about five minutes to devolve into the next best thing to an all-out tantrum. <<
If that.
>> And honestly? At that point, I can see Loki standing off to one side, watching this, watching Tony troll the hell out of Odin and the others putting their two cents into the ring in various ways, and being all 'holy shit.' <<
It's possible. Also, I hadn't thought of this until just now, but there's another reason why Loki and Tony would get along well, if they didn't kill each other: they are both masters of flyting. Loki has a hard time finding anyone to match him at that. Tony's so much faster than everyone else, the only one who can keep up with him is Bruce, and Bruce totally does not play that game.
>>And for once, Steve would SO *let* Tony troll his little heart out, because as you pointed out, Steve does NOT like bullies, and won't be inclined to save Odin from the razor edge of Tony's tongue.<<
Yes.
>> And Steve's preferred methods of dealing with bullies wouldn't be quite as effective on Odin as they tend to be on your average civilian. Mostly because Odin wouldn't give a shit about the whole 'Captain America' thing, so Steve's 'I am very disappointed in you' shtick would fly right over his head. <<
Oh, I think Steve could still hit Odin, just with a customized version. He has the targeting array, just chooses not to use it most of the time. Tony and the staff managed to push Steve's buttons enough to set him off before, but usually he keeps a lid on it. Steve sees far more than he speaks of. Having known Thor and Loki would tell him really quite a lot about Odin.
Things like: It's a coward who drags children into a quarrel between men.
>>Would just mean that Steve would have to resort to a solid punch to the jaw.<<
That would be fun too.
>>And Tony has already proven to not be afraid of him. 'cause he walked *right up to Loki* in the Tower, calling him out on his shit and flat out telling Loki he's fucked, and not going to win.<<
Yes. I think that's why Loki held off from killing Tony when he had the chance. He admired a fellow trickster and there just aren't that many people who aren't afraid of Loki.
>>On that subject ... I have speculated intensely on WHY the staff whammy didn't work on Tony. I've heard people say it was only because the arc reactor physically blocked access to Tony's heart, which ... I am not entirely convinced of that.<<
That's one possibility. In particular, sometimes magic and technology don't mix; there are materials that insulate quite effectively against magic. It's like trying to run an electrical charge through plastic. On the other hoof, both Tony and Loki lap over into the gap that joins technology and magic at the ends of the spectrum, so I'm less inclined to buy this option.
My favorite is that the slot was full. Tony already has an ambient energy charge occupying his body. You can't put a plug into a socket that already has one.
Also on the list, in a similar position, is that Yinsen's sacrifice changed Tony in a way that makes other soul-level changes difficult or impossible. Like retooling a lock. Yinsen gave Tony something he was missing, patched a gap with a piece of his own spirit, but left Tony with the pain of watching him die. It was as much blessing as curse. I loved that about the movie, actually -- Yinsen helped Tony escape and become a hero, but wasn't above taking that one utterly brutal swipe in retaliation for Tony's part in killing his family. He played both cards, the light and the dark. Death magic, blood magic, those are powerful; they're very hard to break or alter.
Another is that Tony has amped up his personal energy to a point that outside influences can't sway it. The technology is a means to an end. He'd hate that, if it came up, but he's so far ahead of the cutting edge of science that he's onto the other end of the spectrum. The suit functions map to the chakras. Do enough with that and it can change how even a purely magical artifact interacts. Which again is kind of a slot-already-full answer: the suit as artifact, leading to superlative control and resistance to outside control.
And the final answer, of course, is that he's Tony Stark. He is chaos and mischief; he can be pushed, but not controlled or contained. In that he is like Loki, and for the same reason, in that they are both tricksters. Which matches your idea of the tesseract being unable to affect itself; chaos cannot create order out of chaos.
I tend to think that Clint could be taken, and Natasha would have been vulnerable too, because they're spies. It's their nature to follow; all the staff did was change Clint's allegiance. And he still had enough sass to bend things a little.
I don't think Selvig resisted at all. You can't rape the willing, please don't throw me into that briar patch ... Loki was probably counting on him to find or build a back door. Counting on Clint, too, to tilt the balance in creative ways. They're the two sides of Loki: scholar and pest. Of course he wanted them.
I'm sure the staff wouldn't have worked on Bruce-and-Hulk because again, slot-already-full. They're so locked into their internal dynamic, nothing else could get in edgewise.
I doubt it would have worked on Steve either. He's solid in a way none of the others are, chosen for purity, shielded and anchored by Erskine as much as Tony is by Yinsen. His soul is already given to a god, his loyalty so anchored to a country that their identities merge. To budge Steve, an artifact would have to budge the whole of America, and I don't think the lever's long enough. To plant himself like a tree beside the river of truth is one of his iconic abilities.
Of course, it depends to some extent on what the staff is made of and how it works. There are a lot of different possibilities, which would influence who it could or could not effect.
These are fun things to play with in AU because there are so many different options to choose from.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-20 04:11 am (UTC)Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-20 04:37 am (UTC)Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-20 04:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-21 04:52 pm (UTC)As usual, great chapter, and thanks : )! (and I read the other comments, and agree with most everyone, it's fun knowing we're several people following this and thinking along!)
Thank you!
Date: 2013-04-22 06:24 am (UTC)Gradually, yes; Phil is gentle and persistent and very effective.
>> And of course, just after that he's tired and bored with the conversation, that's logical: he's made an enormous effort even if it's just a little step!<<
It is a tremendous effort to deal with uncomfortable things far outside his areas of expertise. Particularly when he already feels lousy.
I did also model this after toddler growth patterns, though: cranky and whiny, little step forward, goflopnow.
>>(I think Phil must be tired, too...)<<
Oh yeah. After wrangling Bruce-and-Hulk, who wouldn't be? But it's a good kind of tired, and Phil has a comfortable chair and a quiet place, so at least it's restful.
>> I like the ending, too. Of course Bruce would like a story! Luckily for Phil, reading a story is a lot more relaxing than what he just did with Bruce! <<
Sooth. Storytime is good for the soul.