Story: "Coming Around" (Part 10 of 14)
Apr. 18th, 2013 12:03 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," and "Splash."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Bruce Banner, Hulk.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child/domestic abuse. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Phil shows Bruce the cute pictures of the team helping Hulk clean up after the bilgesnipe fight. Bruce finds the whole idea more confusing than pleasing.
Notes: Teamwork. Friendship. Flangst. Hurt/comfort. Dysfunctional relationship dynamics. Trust issues. Safety and security. ALL THE FEELS. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Personal growth. Family of choice.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9. Skip to Part 12, Part 13, Part 14.
"Coming Around" Part 10
"He does enjoy smashing," Phil said agreeably. "However, I think Hulk is starting to discover that he likes other things as well. If we can get him to explore that further, you may find it easier to get along with him. You do still want that, right?"
"Yes," Bruce admitted, "but I rarely get what I want, so it doesn't matter."
"We'll work on that too," Phil said. Half the problem was getting Bruce to accept anything once offered. He had so little experience with that, he scarcely knew how to respond. "If you can't trust Hulk yet, then trust me. It's my job to watch what happens with my team, keep people safe, and make sure everyone can do their job. You've seen what I can accomplish. Can you at least give me a chance with this?"
"... okay," Bruce said with a cautious nod. Phil heaved a sigh of relief.
"As for communication, well, it's true that Hulk doesn't express himself easily in words. Perhaps we can find some other mode that would work better for him," Phil said.
Bruce snorted. "What would you suggest? Fingerpainting? Smileys? Sign language?"
"We can experiment with different things," Phil said, silently making a note to look into all of those. He had a hypothesis that Hulk sometimes had a subconscious influence on what Bruce said, and vice versa. Given Hulk's limited use of language, some form of nonverbal communication might prove more effective. "We'll figure out a solution eventually."
"How you can be a spy and retain that much optimism is beyond me," Bruce said.
"I believe in heroes," Phil said with a fond smile. He patted Bruce's hand, but did not try to hold on. "Also, I'm a handler. That calls for a different skill set than other types of espionage. Among the more crucial skills is insight into people -- often talented but damaged ones -- to ascertain who might make a promising asset and how to bring out their best qualities."
"Sure," Bruce said, a little too lightly.
"I can tell you without betraying any confidences that Clint was very much a diamond in the rough when I acquired him," Phil said. "Furthermore, I believe that he used what he learned from me to spot Natasha and convince her to come in from the cold." Phil smiled. "I will admit that I did not expect any such ability from Tony, yet he predicted your return in the battle of New York. Perhaps his business background has given him an eye for personnel."
"I'm nothing to write home about," Bruce said. He looked away.
"That's only because so much about you is classified," Phil said. It always hurt to hear how readily Bruce dismissed his own worth, despite all his accomplishments. The man had little better opinion of himself than of the Hulk. "Those of us who know the real you have a much higher opinion."
* * *
Notes:
Acceptance is a challenge for Bruce in various contexts. In particular, he doesn't like himself or Hulk, and he has a hard time believing that he deserves anything that people might offer to him. There are tips for acceptance.
Nonverbal communication or paralanguage spans all the things people convey without words. This includes creative arts, signs, and symbols. Another major component is facial expression; certain basic emotions are almost universally recognizable from expressions even across cultures. These modes of communication can express things difficult or impossible to put into words.
Fingerpainting is a type of nonverbal expression that children often learn. Such simple art can make use of color and shape symbolism to convey more than is illustrated directly. Fingerpainting appears in art therapy, not just as a helpful exercise for the painter, but to give clues about what the person might be feeling or thinking about.
Smileys and other emoticons are abstract symbols that represent emotions. They developed to communicate facial expressions and other feeling-clues in an online environment where people can't see each other but can interact quickly enough to get into major fights and misunderstandings using written words. Notice that many of the smileys still look a lot like faces because the human brain is wired to see faces.
Sign language spans a variety of gestural rather than vocal languages. There is a spectrum from more concrete to more abstract communication. Vocal languages are almost entirely abstract, meaning the sound bears no resemblance to the concept, with rare exceptions in onomatopoeia. Sign languages tend to be more concrete, although they can be highly abstract. It's just easier for signs to be concrete because of how the words are shaped with hands or other body parts to look like what they represent, rather than for sounds to be concrete. Plains Indian Sign is among the more concrete examples, probably because it was used for trade; the more concrete, the easier to understand even if you haven't been told the meaning. I once watched an expert in this language do a demonstration of that effect, and yes, everyone understood him quite easily. Baby Sign Language capitalizes on similar concepts to teach basic communication before the mouth and brain are ready for spoken words.
"Come in from the cold" refers to a spy returning from exile, or more generally, to someone joining a group or gaining social acceptance.
[To be continued in Part 11 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Bruce Banner, Hulk.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child/domestic abuse. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Phil shows Bruce the cute pictures of the team helping Hulk clean up after the bilgesnipe fight. Bruce finds the whole idea more confusing than pleasing.
Notes: Teamwork. Friendship. Flangst. Hurt/comfort. Dysfunctional relationship dynamics. Trust issues. Safety and security. ALL THE FEELS. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Personal growth. Family of choice.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9. Skip to Part 12, Part 13, Part 14.
"Coming Around" Part 10
"He does enjoy smashing," Phil said agreeably. "However, I think Hulk is starting to discover that he likes other things as well. If we can get him to explore that further, you may find it easier to get along with him. You do still want that, right?"
"Yes," Bruce admitted, "but I rarely get what I want, so it doesn't matter."
"We'll work on that too," Phil said. Half the problem was getting Bruce to accept anything once offered. He had so little experience with that, he scarcely knew how to respond. "If you can't trust Hulk yet, then trust me. It's my job to watch what happens with my team, keep people safe, and make sure everyone can do their job. You've seen what I can accomplish. Can you at least give me a chance with this?"
"... okay," Bruce said with a cautious nod. Phil heaved a sigh of relief.
"As for communication, well, it's true that Hulk doesn't express himself easily in words. Perhaps we can find some other mode that would work better for him," Phil said.
Bruce snorted. "What would you suggest? Fingerpainting? Smileys? Sign language?"
"We can experiment with different things," Phil said, silently making a note to look into all of those. He had a hypothesis that Hulk sometimes had a subconscious influence on what Bruce said, and vice versa. Given Hulk's limited use of language, some form of nonverbal communication might prove more effective. "We'll figure out a solution eventually."
"How you can be a spy and retain that much optimism is beyond me," Bruce said.
"I believe in heroes," Phil said with a fond smile. He patted Bruce's hand, but did not try to hold on. "Also, I'm a handler. That calls for a different skill set than other types of espionage. Among the more crucial skills is insight into people -- often talented but damaged ones -- to ascertain who might make a promising asset and how to bring out their best qualities."
"Sure," Bruce said, a little too lightly.
"I can tell you without betraying any confidences that Clint was very much a diamond in the rough when I acquired him," Phil said. "Furthermore, I believe that he used what he learned from me to spot Natasha and convince her to come in from the cold." Phil smiled. "I will admit that I did not expect any such ability from Tony, yet he predicted your return in the battle of New York. Perhaps his business background has given him an eye for personnel."
"I'm nothing to write home about," Bruce said. He looked away.
"That's only because so much about you is classified," Phil said. It always hurt to hear how readily Bruce dismissed his own worth, despite all his accomplishments. The man had little better opinion of himself than of the Hulk. "Those of us who know the real you have a much higher opinion."
* * *
Notes:
Acceptance is a challenge for Bruce in various contexts. In particular, he doesn't like himself or Hulk, and he has a hard time believing that he deserves anything that people might offer to him. There are tips for acceptance.
Nonverbal communication or paralanguage spans all the things people convey without words. This includes creative arts, signs, and symbols. Another major component is facial expression; certain basic emotions are almost universally recognizable from expressions even across cultures. These modes of communication can express things difficult or impossible to put into words.
Fingerpainting is a type of nonverbal expression that children often learn. Such simple art can make use of color and shape symbolism to convey more than is illustrated directly. Fingerpainting appears in art therapy, not just as a helpful exercise for the painter, but to give clues about what the person might be feeling or thinking about.
Smileys and other emoticons are abstract symbols that represent emotions. They developed to communicate facial expressions and other feeling-clues in an online environment where people can't see each other but can interact quickly enough to get into major fights and misunderstandings using written words. Notice that many of the smileys still look a lot like faces because the human brain is wired to see faces.
Sign language spans a variety of gestural rather than vocal languages. There is a spectrum from more concrete to more abstract communication. Vocal languages are almost entirely abstract, meaning the sound bears no resemblance to the concept, with rare exceptions in onomatopoeia. Sign languages tend to be more concrete, although they can be highly abstract. It's just easier for signs to be concrete because of how the words are shaped with hands or other body parts to look like what they represent, rather than for sounds to be concrete. Plains Indian Sign is among the more concrete examples, probably because it was used for trade; the more concrete, the easier to understand even if you haven't been told the meaning. I once watched an expert in this language do a demonstration of that effect, and yes, everyone understood him quite easily. Baby Sign Language capitalizes on similar concepts to teach basic communication before the mouth and brain are ready for spoken words.
"Come in from the cold" refers to a spy returning from exile, or more generally, to someone joining a group or gaining social acceptance.
[To be continued in Part 11 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-18 03:10 pm (UTC)Well...
Date: 2013-04-18 09:04 pm (UTC)I wasn't originally planning on writing this story, but comments on "Splash" got me thinking it was necessary to show Bruce's reaction to the developments. The tone and content of this series vary over time, because as the characters learn to trust each other, more stuff bubbles up for them to deal with.
I'm caught between where the storyline wants to go (deeper) and what the audience has come to expect (ageplay). And I'm really glad to have this dilemma come up in fanfic rather than in the midst of something I'm charging money for! What I'm trying to do is balance the divergent drives, letting more plot play out, and trying to include the ageplay and other aspects of nonsexual intimacy as opportunity allows.
Further thoughts, anyone?
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-04-19 02:32 am (UTC)In short, keep up the good work, because this is a gem of a series, and very much followed and loved.
Re: Well...
Date: 2013-04-19 05:55 am (UTC)That's good to hear!
>> Both have merit- taking the plot deeper, especially in these non-ageplay caretaking story archs, is just as important and impressive and useful as the ageplay archs, which aren't necessarily lighter for all they have a more imaginative tack. <<
I think that these later stories are outgrowths of the earlier ones, because there's always been substance under the fluff. Different readers have mentioned liking the fluffy parts and the plotty parts, and I've had requests to deal with things that would break the characters wide open. So there are overlapping audiences for different aspects of the series. The later parts might also appeal to folks who are into plotty stuff more than fluff, but I'm not sure if it's possible to reach them at this stage.
>> I think the audience would love to see more plot develop, <<
I really hope so. The feedback has been up and down on this story. At least a handful of people are really getting a lot out of it, and some episodes have a high comment count, but others are lower. I suspect that's because it can be uncomfortable to read or think about this level of emotional angst.
>> because we know Ross isn't going away and the villains don't stop, and Fury and SHIELD throw their own wrench into the team dynamic, <<
Too true. Even if they get their personal stuff together, the Avengers will never have an easy life.
>> so whatever moves the plot and brings the team together, even if it doesn't end up using ageplay and nonsexual intimacy, is fine, because your characters are so real and realistic and a pleasure to read. <<
That's what I'm hoping for: that people who started reading for the fluffcomfort will stick around for the heavier plot and emotional repair jobs.
>> I just want to run Bruce a hot bath and get the man to unclench a little, realize how much he's worth; <<
Sooth. Half the problem is that Bruce missed out on learning a lot of things early in life. The other half is that his lived experience mostly involves people hurting him instead of helping him. It's hard for him to relax because when he's done so in the past, it has led to bad things happening. That makes it difficult for him to unwind enough now that he can gain newer, better experiences.
>> I want to give them all a cuddle, <<
They're definitely making progress on the loving-touch.
>> and Phil the biggest of all, for not giving up on them. <<
I love this iteration of Phil. He's like the Energizer Bunny. He just never quits.
>>In short, keep up the good work, because this is a gem of a series, and very much followed and loved.<<
Thank you. I really appreciate the feedback. Most of the time, my confidence level is high. In this case, I'm trying new things, so some of the stories are out at the fringe of my skills. I watch the feedback. As long as it's favorable, I'm cool. If it turns mixed -- and overlaps things I'm privately concerned about -- then I start wondering how well I'm hitting my marks. So the audience input is especially important here.
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-09-20 03:52 am (UTC)It hurts to read, but it is *worth it*.
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-09-20 04:05 am (UTC)Thank you!
>> Mix them as it feels natural--the fluff builds trust, and the plot is where some of the healing is, although both fluff and plot have healing and trust-building in them. Like a yin-yang, almost. <<
That's exactly what I'm aiming for. Hurt/comfort works best as a ratchet, going back and forth, so I can take the tension higher without burning out characters or audience. Taijitu is a good analogy.
>> It hurts to read, but it is *worth it*. <<
*bask, preen* I am honored.
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-09-20 04:09 am (UTC)Dudette, if I wrote you every single time I learned from your fics, you wouldn't be able to keep up. :p
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-09-20 04:38 am (UTC)Sooth. I'm into a great deal of metaphysics, and of course linguistics.
>> Dudette, if I wrote you every single time I learned from your fics, you wouldn't be able to keep up. :p <<
:D
(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-18 03:16 pm (UTC)I am very drawn in to this.
Thank you!
Date: 2013-04-19 03:00 am (UTC)Well, this first version of Hulk asking the team to show Bruce some pictures has at least made progress, even though it didn't turn out as Hulk hoped. I think they'll keep exploring in this direction.
>> I am very drawn in to this. <<
Yay! That's good to hear.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-04-18 08:44 pm (UTC)You're welcome!
Date: 2013-04-19 07:55 am (UTC)Yes, though Phil is having to work for every inch of it.
>> I love your idea that Hulk and Bruce have a subconscious influence on each other, it makes perfect sense, <<
I figure they have to, because you can't share a brain without getting some spillover. They try very hard to avoid each other, but there's not a lot of room for that, poor guys.
>> and Phil is awesome again, being watchful of those little telling details! <<
This is something I highlight when writing certain types of characters -- spies, observant genius types, etc. -- they notice and interpret the kind of clues that most people miss. The details are there in almost everything I write, but sometimes I leave them obscured if there's not a character suited to mulling them over in full view. My readers often dig them out and interpret them anyhow, which is fun; I really enjoy easteregging things like that.
If you like this approach, you might enjoy how I write Sherlock Holmes. In the middle of the Herolock series, but standing alone tolerably well, is "Fighting Through the Fog." It features Sherlock's perspective of a minor alien invasion.
>> Thanks for the new chapter! <<
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-05-09 10:16 am (UTC)http://www.parentingscience.com/facial-expressions-for-kids.html
that they use to teach kids to recognise emotions! that one's about autism i think but it helps for anybody who's bad at recognising emotions in themselves or others, and i totally think bruce could do with it :) i doubt he would accept it because it seems like a 'little kids' game but he needs to learn about it a bit perhaps
nonny75
Hmm...
Date: 2013-05-11 02:04 am (UTC)That's really cool! Thanks for the reference; I hadn't seen that one, and will save it for the future.
I was thinking about emoticons, but also about abstract smiley faces and the way the human brain is wired to see even very stylized things as a face. Hulk seems like he would do better with images or other concrete symbols rather than words, which are more abstract. He gets emotion, so representations of that will resonate more for him.
>> that they use to teach kids to recognise emotions! that one's about autism i think but it helps for anybody who's bad at recognising emotions in themselves or others, and i totally think bruce could do with it :) <<
That makes sense.
>> i doubt he would accept it because it seems like a 'little kids' game but he needs to learn about it a bit perhaps <<
I think adult-Bruce would balk but on a game night little-Bruce might be coaxed into playing.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-05-20 03:52 pm (UTC)Oh... ow. Bruce, Bruce, you're allowed to reach for what you want. (And this time nobody's going to slap your hands.)
But that requires a degree of trust that is flatly impossible if you can't even bring yourself to extend the hand in the first place, or - to really make it extreme - to realize you want something.
I think Bruce has that part down (and the want appears to be gnawing on him, as they do, and Hulk, bless his loyal soul, is trying to protect Bruce from that too) but the asking for it? Nuh-uh, no way, nohow.
Not yet.
The idea of Hulk using sign language strikes me as completely adorable. I tend to assume he's got very limited dexterity because of his sheer size and also his manner of speech makes me think of a small child, but you've pointed out multiple times that it isn't the case.
This fic has made me cry twice, and that is fairly impressive. Well written.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-05-21 07:19 pm (UTC)There are a number of things Bruce has stopped doing, or even stopped sensing, because he was punished or things just went horribly wrong when he did. Some other things he hasn't stopped completely but is hesitant or erratic about doing. Taking care of himself, asking for help, asserting authority, relying on other people -- he has trouble with those things.
>> But that requires a degree of trust that is flatly impossible if you can't even bring yourself to extend the hand in the first place, or - to really make it extreme - to realize you want something. <<
Yes, precisely. With consistent support and encouragement, Bruce is making gains in this direction. He's gotten pretty good at relying on the other Avengers because, barring somebody else's issues going apeshit, they do what they say they'll do and don't blow him off. Trusting them as a choice, he's just beginning to manage occasionally. Trusting as an emotion, Bruce can't really feel yet. That's one of those things Hulk handles. But because Hulk trusts the team -- and he really does -- some of that laps back over onto Bruce and influences his interactions.
>> I think Bruce has that part down (and the want appears to be gnawing on him, as they do, and Hulk, bless his loyal soul, is trying to protect Bruce from that too) <<
Some kinds of want, Bruce understands and acts on. He wants to do science so he does. Within that very limited context, because the drive is so strong, I think he's at a place where he can say, "Tony, I need supplies," and make a shopping list and not freak over it.
Food is another one. Most of the Avengers have had a dicey relationship with food security. While Bruce won't push for dominance if people are grabbing things, he doesn't short himself otherwise. Sometimes he gets distracted in the lab and forgets to eat, but hunger is something he knows and addresses. He'll even pick out particular things he wants instead of needs.
It's personal wants -- hopes and dreams -- where Bruce often falls down. Wanting to have friends, well, how would he know about that? He's barely had any. Wanting peace with Hulk? Tried and failed, so it hurts to keep trying. (Sometimes disabled people really want the walkies to stop trying to fix it.) Wanting nice things, like clothes that actually fit? No point, since he's used to wrecking stuff or having to run.
So it's erratic, which is uncomfortable for Bruce and everyone around him.
>>but the asking for it? Nuh-uh, no way, nohow.
Not yet.<<
Yeah. What makes this worse is that Tony is all ask and no guess. He can barely manage social expectations when people spell things out in meticulous detail a few dozen times. That cultural split causes no end of pain, and here we've got two best friends, one of whom can't guess and the other of whom usually can't ask. Ouchie.
>>The idea of Hulk using sign language strikes me as completely adorable.<<
Yay!
>> I tend to assume he's got very limited dexterity because of his sheer size and also his manner of speech makes me think of a small child, but you've pointed out multiple times that it isn't the case. <<
Hulk has limited fine dexterity due to his size. His full-body agility is quite good. (I suspect that Bruce is naturally clumsy, and the body-grace he has learned from things like yoga is partial carryover from Hulk; just as Hulk's manual dexterity borrows from Bruce, who is quite deft with his fingers.) So if Hulk is trying to handle things meant for ordinary people, it's hard for him; but with materials suited to his own size, he's okay. Imagine trying to handle doll furniture made from balsa wood and you can understand how the poor guy feels.
Sign language, therefore, is feasible. This is especially true for baby-sign, which is simpler. There are probably some signs that Hulk couldn't manage, and he'll do better with representational ones than abstracts like finger-spelling, but the average should be better than spoken words.
>>This fic has made me cry twice, and that is fairly impressive. Well written.<<
Thank you! I'm flattered.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2023-08-10 09:59 pm (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2023-08-11 10:31 am (UTC)You're probably right about sensory issues, beyond the spillover after hulking out.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-05 05:25 pm (UTC)I wish I shared this fandom with my friend L. She would benefit SO MUCH from reading the stories, experiencing the comfort vicariously, understanding she is not alone in the frozenness of the childhood abuse victim grown up. Damn...!
...I'm sorry. Didn't mean to get so personal... But this feels like safe space, you know?
Yes...
Date: 2013-08-05 07:59 pm (UTC)Yay! It's something I hope to explore eventually.
>> ASL is so expressive, and incorporates facial expressions... <<
That's a part where Hulk does really well.
>> Hell, BRUCE would do well in practicing sign, being non verbally expressive for a change might shake things loose, and having a communication mode in common with Hulk strikes me as a Very Good Thing. <<
Noted for possible future use, thank you. I think Bruce would be good at parts that Hulk isn't -- the fancier abstract signs, for example -- and bad at things like deliberate facial expressions where Hulk excels. They'd have to work together in order to get really fluent, which is a good motivation. I'm with you on the value of a common language for them.
>> The body has a deep wisdom, a wisdom Bruce mostly ignores... <<
Yes, exactly. It's only in recent times that Bruce has been with people who won't physically abuse him, so he's starting to have moments of feeling less threatened in his body, more able to be in it ... complicated by the fact that he never really feels secure in his body because of Hulk. But the safety of the environment and the teamfamily is starting to soak through and that's actually part of what's making Bruce so twitchy, because it's new and unfamiliar and downright scary.
>> And there is Stuff you have to relive and acknowledge before you can release it and move on... In my life a lot of the Stuff has been locked up in my body, and only now, in my 40's,am I safe enough, secure enough, to help my body grow stronger and more flexible, and the victim posture is starting to release my limbs and joints as I make progress in my own healing. <<
Yes, that's much the same as what's happening with Bruce now. His posture is starting to open up sometimes, get a little more confident and less skittish. Game night has helped a lot just by letting him be as scared as he needed, and hide under the furniture if that's what felt right to him.
If you look in "Touching Moments" you'll see examples of how people store tension and memories in different parts of their bodies; that's a Clint and Bruce story. Tony's tension cache will appear in "Hide and Seek." I want to explore some of Bucky's body memories too. He has a lot stored that he can't easily access, though for different reasons.
>> I wish I shared this fandom with my friend L. She would benefit SO MUCH from reading the stories, experiencing the comfort vicariously, understanding she is not alone in the frozenness of the childhood abuse victim grown up. Damn...! <<
It's worth a try. There are at least a couple handfuls of folks reading and enjoying this series who have seen little or nothing of the canon. I wasn't expecting that, but apparently the material works as stand-alone even though I didn't really write it that way. I mean, I put in some extra markers in case folks didn't know all the canon stuff, but I was expecting familiarity.
Maybe give your friend a sample of your favorite parts, or most relevant parts, and see if it appeals?
>> ...I'm sorry. Didn't mean to get so personal... But this feels like safe space, you know? <<
It's okay. Folks are welcome to talk about the stories with me or debate with each other, whatever they want. All I ask is that it stay civil, because yes, this is intended as safe space. My blog is generally -- I don't tolerate trolling or flaming -- but this series in particular is extra protected. I've had a few folks carry on backchannel discussions of stuff they didn't want to post in comments, too. That's also okay.