Story: "Am I Not" Part 5
May. 14th, 2014 12:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Hairpins," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Querencia," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers, Thor
Characters: Loki, Frigga
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Past abuse. Past torture. Past suicide attempt. Past mindrape. Dubious consent / nonconsent. Soul violence. Imprisonment. Isolation. Racism. Internalized racism. Self-hate. Self-destructive behavior. Shame. Envy. Depression. Dysfunctional family dynamics. Verbal abuse. Victim-blaming. WARN ALL THE THINGS.
Summary: Loki and Frigga talk while he is imprisoned.
Notes: Hurt/Comfort. Mostly hurt. Emotional whump. Angst. Adoption. Sibling rivalry. Manipulation. Communication issues. Truth. Lies. Poor intrapersonal skills. Nonsexual love. Boundary issues. Trust issues. Daddy issues. Maternal love. Subterfuge. Rejection. Books. Reading. Magic. Wisdom. Hope. Loki's head is a bag of cats. You can smell crazy on him. Loki needs a hug.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4.
Here ends "Am I Not." Thank you all for sticking with the series this far! I love your input. Final thoughts on the story overall are welcome, in addition to reactions on this specific chapter. I also have a list of favorite photogenic scenes from the whole series for fanartists to consider, partly compiled from audience requests.
Next up, tomorrow I'm going to offer a story inspired by Norse mythology, about Loki and Odin, in exchange for audience interaction. After that, we'll switch back to Love Is For Children with "Blended."
A note on feedback: While it's not necessary to comment on every post I make, remember that I don't know who reads/likes things if nobody says anything. Particularly on long stories, I've discovered that I get antsy if there's nothing but crickets chirping for several posts. So it helps to give me feedback at least once, even if it's just "I like this" or "This one doesn't grab me." First and last episodes are ideal if you rarely feel inspired to comment in the middle.
"Am I Not" Part 5
Loki had used the staff to secure their service. He had used it shamelessly, because it was all he had. Loki wished for men to desire him as their lord, to follow him, to admire him. If they would not of their own accord, why then he would make them.
But he was ashamed, in the end, wasn't he? Ashamed that he could not hold the kind of court that Thor could, forever cast in his brother's shadow while followers flocked to Thor like geese when a baker flings bread. Instead all of Loki's efforts failed, as usual.
Trapped, waiting for his captors to come and snatch him up again -- Loki could do nothing to stop it. His whole world would pay the price for his folly. No one would believe him if he tried to warn them. They never did. Sometimes Loki wondered why he wasted his breath.
Hope, I suppose, he said to himself. But then that went over the edge of the Bifröst, did it not?
Still Loki could not help himself. He would think of something. He had to. There was nobody else to do it. He could not let Asgard fall to the machinations of the Other, not without at least trying to save it. Even if it had never truly been his home, it was dear to his mother. For her sake he would dare even failure.
With a sigh, Loki turned his attention to the books she had left for him. They were old, and dusty, held together more by preservation spells than by ancient leather. The scent of his mother's magic clung to them like perfume. Loki picked up the uppermost volume and pressed his cheek against it, trying to capture the fleeting impression of her fingers upon the cover. He brushed the dust away, and the title glittered silver in elvish runes.
His mother had introduced him to the magic of the Ljósálfar when he was no more than a stripling. Challenging as it was, it had captivated his attention more than most of Asgard's offerings on the topic. That had led to his mad adventures among the uppermost twigs of Yggdrasil. But surely this was a mistake, Frigga could not have meant --
Loki caught his breath.
Do the work your tutors have left for you ...
If he could use the things she had sent to him, books and flasks and brazier and all, so very innocuous, so plausibly deniable, except that he had never needed the whole of a sorcerer's workspace when the best of his power lay beneath his own skin, such that these few tidbits meant far more than they seemed in his hands. If he could take advantage of the time he was given to study, months or years or however long it took. If he could find out what had been done to him. If he could find a way to undo it. Then he would have a chance, and by the Norns he would take it, whatever the cost.
Loki was nothing, if not his mother's son. This he could do.
... and then you may go play.
* * *
Notes:
Many people want to be liked, but it's better to be yourself. People may also want to be respected or admired. There are ways to stop seeking approval. Loki craves affirmation from other people because he got too little of it growing up, and starving people do crazy things sometimes.
There are many definitions of shame. It can turn toxic, and shame-based people suffer a lot of problems. Know how to overcome shame. The most important thing here is Loki's honesty with himself: admitting that what he did to Clint and Eric was disgraceful, did not meet his needs, and only made him feel worse. So Loki isn't likely to repeat that mistake.
False love can be toxic. Understand how to distinguish between healthy real love and harmful false love. What feelings the staff created in Clint and Eric were artificial, and therefore unsatisfying. What Clint, Eric, and Loki felt about each other on their own was muddied by the manipulation but still genuine, and will remain for them to deal with later.
Hope is sweet when present and bitter when lost. There are ways to overcome hopelessness, including particular advice for different types of it. Loki's suicide attempt was spurred by a loss of hope when Odin made it clear that nothing Loki did would ever be good enough.
The Ljósálfar or light elves appear in Norse mythology and Marvel canon. They are associated with magic, including the ability to pass through doors or travel the branches of Yggdrasil. Given that Loki and Frigga have magic, but Asgard seems to look down on such things, it's likely that at least some of their knowledge comes from places where people respect it more. Here's a good essay about their use of magic in Thor 2: The Dark World.
Plausible deniability originally had political connotations. In certain subcultures, however -- kink and Paganism among them -- it refers instead to the use of ordinary objects for ulterior purposes. A wooden spoon makes a fine whapping toy; a candle is equally useful for blackouts or rituals. In this case, Loki's cell is full of stuff that any sorcerer could use for spellcasting, but which the battle-minded Asgardian guards would never recognize as any kind of credible threat. In essence, Frigga slipped him a nail file in a cake that nobody would look for. You don't give a master sorcerer books unless you want to stage a jailbreak. How do we know it's Frigga? Nobody else gives a fuck about Loki and all the other cells were barren. The goodies had to come from her.
~ MISSION ACCOMPLISHED ~
Fandom: The Avengers, Thor
Characters: Loki, Frigga
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Past abuse. Past torture. Past suicide attempt. Past mindrape. Dubious consent / nonconsent. Soul violence. Imprisonment. Isolation. Racism. Internalized racism. Self-hate. Self-destructive behavior. Shame. Envy. Depression. Dysfunctional family dynamics. Verbal abuse. Victim-blaming. WARN ALL THE THINGS.
Summary: Loki and Frigga talk while he is imprisoned.
Notes: Hurt/Comfort. Mostly hurt. Emotional whump. Angst. Adoption. Sibling rivalry. Manipulation. Communication issues. Truth. Lies. Poor intrapersonal skills. Nonsexual love. Boundary issues. Trust issues. Daddy issues. Maternal love. Subterfuge. Rejection. Books. Reading. Magic. Wisdom. Hope. Loki's head is a bag of cats. You can smell crazy on him. Loki needs a hug.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4.
Here ends "Am I Not." Thank you all for sticking with the series this far! I love your input. Final thoughts on the story overall are welcome, in addition to reactions on this specific chapter. I also have a list of favorite photogenic scenes from the whole series for fanartists to consider, partly compiled from audience requests.
Next up, tomorrow I'm going to offer a story inspired by Norse mythology, about Loki and Odin, in exchange for audience interaction. After that, we'll switch back to Love Is For Children with "Blended."
A note on feedback: While it's not necessary to comment on every post I make, remember that I don't know who reads/likes things if nobody says anything. Particularly on long stories, I've discovered that I get antsy if there's nothing but crickets chirping for several posts. So it helps to give me feedback at least once, even if it's just "I like this" or "This one doesn't grab me." First and last episodes are ideal if you rarely feel inspired to comment in the middle.
"Am I Not" Part 5
Loki had used the staff to secure their service. He had used it shamelessly, because it was all he had. Loki wished for men to desire him as their lord, to follow him, to admire him. If they would not of their own accord, why then he would make them.
But he was ashamed, in the end, wasn't he? Ashamed that he could not hold the kind of court that Thor could, forever cast in his brother's shadow while followers flocked to Thor like geese when a baker flings bread. Instead all of Loki's efforts failed, as usual.
Trapped, waiting for his captors to come and snatch him up again -- Loki could do nothing to stop it. His whole world would pay the price for his folly. No one would believe him if he tried to warn them. They never did. Sometimes Loki wondered why he wasted his breath.
Hope, I suppose, he said to himself. But then that went over the edge of the Bifröst, did it not?
Still Loki could not help himself. He would think of something. He had to. There was nobody else to do it. He could not let Asgard fall to the machinations of the Other, not without at least trying to save it. Even if it had never truly been his home, it was dear to his mother. For her sake he would dare even failure.
With a sigh, Loki turned his attention to the books she had left for him. They were old, and dusty, held together more by preservation spells than by ancient leather. The scent of his mother's magic clung to them like perfume. Loki picked up the uppermost volume and pressed his cheek against it, trying to capture the fleeting impression of her fingers upon the cover. He brushed the dust away, and the title glittered silver in elvish runes.
His mother had introduced him to the magic of the Ljósálfar when he was no more than a stripling. Challenging as it was, it had captivated his attention more than most of Asgard's offerings on the topic. That had led to his mad adventures among the uppermost twigs of Yggdrasil. But surely this was a mistake, Frigga could not have meant --
Loki caught his breath.
Do the work your tutors have left for you ...
If he could use the things she had sent to him, books and flasks and brazier and all, so very innocuous, so plausibly deniable, except that he had never needed the whole of a sorcerer's workspace when the best of his power lay beneath his own skin, such that these few tidbits meant far more than they seemed in his hands. If he could take advantage of the time he was given to study, months or years or however long it took. If he could find out what had been done to him. If he could find a way to undo it. Then he would have a chance, and by the Norns he would take it, whatever the cost.
Loki was nothing, if not his mother's son. This he could do.
... and then you may go play.
* * *
Notes:
Many people want to be liked, but it's better to be yourself. People may also want to be respected or admired. There are ways to stop seeking approval. Loki craves affirmation from other people because he got too little of it growing up, and starving people do crazy things sometimes.
There are many definitions of shame. It can turn toxic, and shame-based people suffer a lot of problems. Know how to overcome shame. The most important thing here is Loki's honesty with himself: admitting that what he did to Clint and Eric was disgraceful, did not meet his needs, and only made him feel worse. So Loki isn't likely to repeat that mistake.
False love can be toxic. Understand how to distinguish between healthy real love and harmful false love. What feelings the staff created in Clint and Eric were artificial, and therefore unsatisfying. What Clint, Eric, and Loki felt about each other on their own was muddied by the manipulation but still genuine, and will remain for them to deal with later.
Hope is sweet when present and bitter when lost. There are ways to overcome hopelessness, including particular advice for different types of it. Loki's suicide attempt was spurred by a loss of hope when Odin made it clear that nothing Loki did would ever be good enough.
The Ljósálfar or light elves appear in Norse mythology and Marvel canon. They are associated with magic, including the ability to pass through doors or travel the branches of Yggdrasil. Given that Loki and Frigga have magic, but Asgard seems to look down on such things, it's likely that at least some of their knowledge comes from places where people respect it more. Here's a good essay about their use of magic in Thor 2: The Dark World.
Plausible deniability originally had political connotations. In certain subcultures, however -- kink and Paganism among them -- it refers instead to the use of ordinary objects for ulterior purposes. A wooden spoon makes a fine whapping toy; a candle is equally useful for blackouts or rituals. In this case, Loki's cell is full of stuff that any sorcerer could use for spellcasting, but which the battle-minded Asgardian guards would never recognize as any kind of credible threat. In essence, Frigga slipped him a nail file in a cake that nobody would look for. You don't give a master sorcerer books unless you want to stage a jailbreak. How do we know it's Frigga? Nobody else gives a fuck about Loki and all the other cells were barren. The goodies had to come from her.
~ MISSION ACCOMPLISHED ~
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-14 06:44 am (UTC)And how!
Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-19 07:26 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-14 06:44 am (UTC)On a side note - I DID find the link to the Loki-and-kids fic I mentioned in the comments of Part One. I posted it there a couple days ago. (I only mention it because you didn't reply to the comment, and I wanted to make sure you knew I'd found it. :3 )
Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-14 06:51 am (UTC)I'm glad you liked this! I had to come up with some other way of getting Loki out, and while I knew nothing could hold him forever, I figured he would need help to escape quickly, let alone deal with the Chitauri damage. All the stuff in Loki's cell would've made it easy for him.
>> On a side note - I DID find the link to the Loki-and-kids fic I mentioned in the comments of Part One. I posted it there a couple days ago. (I only mention it because you didn't reply to the comment, and I wanted to make sure you knew I'd found it. :3 ) <<
Thanks. I did read that, but I just finished it tonight, so hadn't gotten around to commenting back. I like his kids -- they're creepy and powerful and sweet, like Loki.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-14 12:18 pm (UTC)Though there's always the option of playing with how time passes in the various realms. From what I remember, there's nothing in the MCU canon at least to indicate that all realms experience the passage of time in the same way, or even have the same amount of minutes/hours in a day, or days in a week, et c.
> > Thanks. I did read that, but I just finished it tonight, so hadn't gotten around to commenting back. I like his kids -- they're creepy and powerful and sweet, like Loki. < <
You're welcome! I'm eagerly awaiting the next update, haha. I love the kids. None of them are Loki-clones, personality or looks wise, nor are they clones of each other, which sometimes happens with kidfic. And I love how the kids and Bruce interact!
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-15 01:22 am (UTC)Yes, I've seen other folks use that.
>> And I love how the kids and Bruce interact! <<
Agreed. He's really good with them, and so protective.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-16 03:48 am (UTC)Bruce + kids is basically one of my favourite things in fic ever. Also Bucky + kids. XD
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-16 04:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-14 10:36 am (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-17 06:07 am (UTC)Yay! I'm glad it came together for you in the end.
>> I sort of like Loki's regard for Clint and Dr. Erik but it was too much like a boy with the best marbles. <<
Well, he doesn't have any other model for how to relate to people yet. He just knows that he is desperately unhappy with his life and wants other people in it who will think better of him. Of course he went out and picked the best ones he could find, but now he feels bad about it because it was unsatisfying and he wound up hurting people he liked.
But to be considered one of the "best marbles" ...? Is something that Clint wanted too, and the Chitauri had to go and mess it up for both of them.
>> Loki with the basics to do something if he will just apply himself and think clearly is wonderful. <<
Honestly being separated from his wreck of a family is a good thing and will help straighten out his head a bit, despite the lousy circumstances. I think it'll help if he buckles down and does the work to get himself out of the cell.
Frigga steps up--
Date: 2014-05-14 04:36 pm (UTC)Unfortunately, the statistics are /not/ good for a teen that age being able to turn their lives around. People in their lives have to really WORK to get support, to establish communication and trust... and they, in turn, are a bulwark against the social crap that goes along with teenager-in-foster-care.
In /this/ case, Frigga is helping Loki as far as she dares. She /needs/ that plausible deniability.
But, I also think that she's also cutting /ties/ with Loki-- when he is found again, she /has/ to walk a fine line between Odin's Dutiful Wife (patent pending) and Maternal Instinct. It would be far kinder to Loki to play the "I'm so horribly disappointed, where did I go wrong?" number, and never, ever get past it, because /when/ Loki is taken back to Asgard for any reason, it's going to be a thousand times harder to slip even the most innocuous comforts to him. Best he understand now: this was Frigga's last lesson for him.
Fortunately, I doubt you're done telling stories in this universe, so /eventually/, we'll get Loki landing in Phil's lap. Maybe literally. The /good/ news for Loki is that he's a natural shapeshifter; once he believes he can "get away with"-- which will happen before he believes that he's SAFE-- truly changing form to something age three or so, just to test Phil's reactions, it'll become simpler and easier to believe Phil (and eventually, the others).
(Forgive the rambling; Vicodin is only marginally better than current pain levels.)
Re: Frigga steps up--
Date: 2014-05-16 07:30 am (UTC)I agree.
>> If he's the equivalent of sixteen or so, there are kids who /enter/ the foster system at that age, for family situations very much like the dynamics between Odin, Frigga and both Thor and Loki. <<
Yes, and it's usually out of the fire into the frying pan, unless they get expert trauma care. Most of the time what happens is the equivalent of pulling someone out of a wrecked car and then abandoning them in the ditch. Fortunately Uncle Phil has plenty of experience with wild young things and trauma survivors.
>> Unfortunately, the statistics are /not/ good for a teen that age being able to turn their lives around. <<
Sadly so. They don't have many tools or resources for healthy living.
>> People in their lives have to really WORK to get support, to establish communication and trust... and they, in turn, are a bulwark against the social crap that goes along with teenager-in-foster-care. <<
Yes, it's very difficult all around. You can't catch up on fourteen or sixteen years of life skills missing due to neglect or abuse, in just a few years.
>> In /this/ case, Frigga is helping Loki as far as she dares. She /needs/ that plausible deniability. <<
That makes sense.
>> But, I also think that she's also cutting /ties/ with Loki-- when he is found again, she /has/ to walk a fine line between Odin's Dutiful Wife (patent pending) and Maternal Instinct. <<
That's one possibility. But it could just as well be a test for Odin. Just because Frigga isn't consciously aware of all his abuse, doesn't mean her visionary skills are out of order altogether. She's likely acting on instinct, helping Loki in a way that puts him on a branching path. There's no telling in advance where that will end, even for a Seer, but one can sense possibilities. And another of those is that Odin would go off the deep edge in a way nobody else would tolerate anymore.
>> It would be far kinder to Loki to play the "I'm so horribly disappointed, where did I go wrong?" number, and never, ever get past it, because /when/ Loki is taken back to Asgard for any reason, it's going to be a thousand times harder to slip even the most innocuous comforts to him. Best he understand now: this was Frigga's last lesson for him. <<
If anyone could get him back there at all, considering he would be even more agile.
>> Fortunately, I doubt you're done telling stories in this universe, so /eventually/, we'll get Loki landing in Phil's lap. Maybe literally. <<
Yes, we will, assuming I have time to extend the series that far. Loki needs so much care, and has gotten so little.
>> The /good/ news for Loki is that he's a natural shapeshifter; once he believes he can "get away with"-- which will happen before he believes that he's SAFE-- truly changing form to something age three or so, just to test Phil's reactions, it'll become simpler and easier to believe Phil (and eventually, the others). <<
I don't know if Loki will be willing to trust people that far -- or for that matter, how long it will take for his magic to heal enough that he can truly shift shape rather than just cast illusions.
>> (Forgive the rambling; Vicodin is only marginally better than current pain levels.) <<
Bummer.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-14 06:47 pm (UTC)Yay!
Date: 2014-05-16 07:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-14 07:38 pm (UTC)Good for Loki, being honest with himself. I do hope he and Thor get to join Game Night, but that's going to involve some serious ouch with Clint. On the other hand - his wanting them to desire him, to desire to serve him - that's a note that rings true and clear, and I wonder how Phil in particular will react to that, since it isn't an ingredient anyone else really seems to bring to the mix.
I'd be very interested in the potential sparks between that element of Loki, and the Avengers whose expression of affection revolves around service. It could so easily be toxic - but if it weren't, it'd be beautiful.
Even if not, this peek into Loki and Frigga in this universe has been very satisfying. I love your portrayal of her as intelligent, sneaky, and still in hotter waters than she can handle alone.
Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-17 05:28 am (UTC)Yes, it does. Some stories in this series are fluff, but this is one of the edgier stories. Marvel really set up the dysfunctional family dynamics in Asgard.
>> (I like it! But I also like your habit of warning All The Things.) <<
I'm glad I could help.
>> Good for Loki, being honest with himself. <<
In some ways, he really does know himself, despite what Frigga said. (And sheesh, way to throw rocks from a big glass house, lady.) But there are places he has some awful blind spots. Loki has, at this point, clarified a lot of his feelings about Clint and Eric.
>> I do hope he and Thor get to join Game Night, <<
That's the plan, if I have time to carry the series that far.
>> but that's going to involve some serious ouch with Clint. <<
Yes, it will. Clint is still hurting from what happened between them, but unlike Loki, he has the advantage of a great support network. So Clint is making terrific progress on this topic. By the time Loki arrives, Clint is going to be waaayyy ahead.
That changes the dynamic between them from what is usually rendered in fanfic; almost everything is some flavor of "Clint tries to or actually does kill Loki for mindraping him," "Loki abuses Clint all over again," or "Clint wanted it all along and everything is fine." So there is very little about them working through the mess they've made of each other, really dealing with what you do when your fucked up childhood has made you hurt someone you care about -- which applies to both of them, because remember, Clint was fighting even though some of what Loki offered did appeal to him.
>> On the other hand - his wanting them to desire him, to desire to serve him - that's a note that rings true and clear, <<
I'm glad that works for you. I think it's a vital part of Loki's personality. He craves respect and he wants people of his own, not just sloppy seconds from Thor. What he really wants -- personal servants, friends, and colleagues -- is hidden under what he claims to want, ruling Midgard.
>> and I wonder how Phil in particular will react to that, since it isn't an ingredient anyone else really seems to bring to the mix. <<
Phil wants what is best for the team as a whole and for the members as individuals. In order for Clint and Thor to heal, they need to repair their relationships with Loki. The potential conflict of loyalties can be resolved if Loki can be brought all the way into the teamfamily instead of hanging off the edge and dragging it out of balance like he is now. They can't just abandon Loki; cut him, Clint and Thor both bleed. It helps that Clint's subordinate relationship to Phil and Loki is different, so they're not directly competing for him. But it's still going to be very sticky for a while.
>> I'd be very interested in the potential sparks between that element of Loki, and the Avengers whose expression of affection revolves around service. It could so easily be toxic - but if it weren't, it'd be beautiful. <<
The toxic aspect comes from the fact that Loki both craves and resists having anyone take care of him. Look how he fights with Frigga when she is honestly trying to help him (however mangled by her relationship with Odin). Loki was able to do it with Clint because Clint was under his control. Accepting that kind of intimacy from anyone else will be difficult, even if he needs it, perhaps especially if he needs it.
Bruce is going to be worried as hell about Loki, because Loki is so obviously broken and Bruce is such a nannyhammer. Steve doesn't like bullies, and most of the people in Loki's life -- including Thor -- regularly bullied him. Which is going to drag Bucky in too, because he's the one who gave Steve that imprint in the first place. So that's going to mess up whatever progress Thor has made in merging with the team.
The real tangle is with Phil and Clint, though, because Loki and Clint touched minds. That creates an extremely intimate connection that tends to spill over memories. So now Clint sees Thor partially through Loki's memories; and Loki sees Phil partly through Clint's memories. Loki's instincts will be screaming that nobody can be trusted, while Clint's memories will be urging him to lean on Phil, especially when Phil is trying to take care of him. Conversely Clint still has his awareness of what Loki wants and needs, and a desire to serve, because Clint is a follower at heart and Loki chose him. But Clint is also touchy as hell on the topic of mind control and without the staff holding him steady, he is going to wobble like fuck, trying desperately not to want what he wants and know what he knows.
And Natasha, who hates Loki, is going to chop his heart to dogmeat because in Clint's memories she is his sister.
>> Even if not, this peek into Loki and Frigga in this universe has been very satisfying. <<
Yay! I'm happy to hear that.
>> I love your portrayal of her as intelligent, sneaky, and still in hotter waters than she can handle alone. <<
No matter how powerful you are, there's always something beyond your ability to solve completely. Domestic abuse is a hellish nightmare, especially when people around you are going, "Why doesn't she hit back? Why doesn't she just leave?" But it's never that simple.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-01 12:56 am (UTC)Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-01 07:29 pm (UTC)It takes a strong person to survive all the crap he's come through, to know what he wants and pursue that. In The Avengers Clint was overwhelmed by a superior force; it happens. He still tends to blame himself for what happened, but he's getting better now that folks around him are pointing out how it wasn't his fault. (Some of the asshats in SHIELD are a different story.) Admitting that he enjoyed some of the interactions with Loki is going to be a lot harder.
>> Followship is a dangerous urge to have sometimes, because people assume they can take advantage of you; I feel sometimes like I'm balancing a tightrope between my desire to follow and serve a good leader and not wanting to be taken advantage of or seen as weak, and it's not something I enjoy. <<
It can be very challenging. Of course, leadership has its pitfalls too. I've written about this in "Balancing Powers."
One reason I want to explore this thread with Clint and Loki is to look at how a healthy relationship develops between follower and leader -- even if it got started in a pretty fucked-up way.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-01 07:49 pm (UTC)Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-02 03:39 am (UTC)That's true too. People routinely underestimate Hawkeye and Black Widow for that reason. But neither of them will tolerate a handler they dislike. Barton bucks them off with balls and sass, Romanova with creepy threats or sexual wiles, but it works. They're a good fit with Coulson precisely because he knows manipulation himself, and because he respects his assets.
And that's how Loki slipped through Hawkeye's inner armor. The staff was only about power. Hawkeye's been rolled before, in various ways; he could've dealt with that. What knocked him so totally off-balance was that Loki treated him as a valued ally instead of like livestock. Think about their dialog:
Loki: "What did it show you?"
Hawkeye: "My next target."
Loki: "What do you need?"
Hawkeye: "A distraction and an eyeball."
Loki asked what he saw, what he needed, and then just did that.
Which puts him in a subset of exactly two, Coulson being the other person who values Hawkeye that much. Loki has an edge in that he picked Hawkeye out of a roomful of people. Coulson has an edge in that Hawkeye serves him willingly. It's a hell of a tangle in there, and it hurts, and that's why Clint couldn't sleep properly for several months after the Battle of Manhattan.
>> I love the article! <<
Thank you!
>> And I can't wait to see Clint and Loki interacting again. <<
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-02 03:44 am (UTC)Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-02 06:15 am (UTC)Sorry to hear about the shitty leaders.
>> especially since it was pretty clear *Loki* was as enslaved as the others (his eyes should be green, not blue--I'm amazed Thor missed that, but he only saw Loki's eyes close-up on the mountain, and it was pretty dark, so maybe that was it). <<
True. Loki looked like hell when he landed: sweaty, swaying on his feet, dark shadows under his eyes, erratic behavior, etc. That pretty well screams "torture victim" in context even before the scene with them mind-raping him through the staff. Another clue is the moment of relief right after Loki claims Hawkeye: because a mental connection with someone else spreads out the shock. Hawkeye was fresh, trained in withstanding torture, and fucking stubborn. So he was able to shore up Loki's efforts to stay upright.
>> Loki has potential to naturally be a good leader, which makes it even more painful for Clint. <<
Exactly. Clint sees everything, and he sees better from a distance. Looking across the realms at Loki's family? With an abusive father and love/hate brotherly relationship? So much pain. So much resonance.
>> Being a natural follower means you deal with shitty 'leaders' all. The. Time. Experiencing a good leader *that* way? *shudders* <<
Ghastly, yes. It's like how rape is worse if the victim has an orgasm. (Also something Clint has survived, and that parallel isn't helping.)
>> I'll be amazed if he ever forgives Loki, even though I wish he could so he can experience that again. <<
I wouldn't bring them back together from this angle if I didn't mean to heal the breach. They both want it, and that is what makes it possible. They're willing to do the work. It'll just be harder for Loki because Clint is way ahead of him on personal growth.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-02 02:39 pm (UTC)...someone did *what* to Clint? *readies baseball bat* If only I could break te fourth wall...
XD I can't wait!
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-15 01:17 am (UTC)Also true.
>> And oh, jeeze, Clint is going to have Words for Odin, if he ever meets him... <<
Oh, Clint will have more than words, if I have time to write that far. He can be a very subtle man when he wants to be, and a devastating enemy. He will go quite far in pursuit of his goals, often in directions nobody expects. Now consider how Clint is going to feel about Sleipnir, with Loki's memories in his head.
>> ...someone did *what* to Clint? *readies baseball bat* If only I could break te fourth wall... <<
It's one of the easiest ways to break an enemy operative, especially if you're short on time and/or you don't want to risk killing them. Or if someone gets captured by assholes they may just do it for fun and dominance, as men do in prisons.
Of course, the bad guys don't know that Clint has already survived a lifetime of abuse, most of it physical rather than sexual, but he knows all the tricks. It's not like they'd live to regret their mistakes once Black Widow and/or Agent Coulson catch up to them.
>> XD I can't wait! <<
Yay!
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-09-15 02:01 am (UTC)I dearly hope they got to meet their end via Black Widow.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-15 01:39 am (UTC)Anyway, I've greatly enjoyed this series so far, so thank you for writing it. While I was spurred to comment by the inclusion of Loki (which I do enjoy), I've been reading along for a while, and I love how you explore each character's mind and how they think.
I would also like to thank you for the links at the end; I like being able to go read more about things that strike me as interesting.
Sorry for the lack of meaningful content here; I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this series.
Welcome!
Date: 2014-05-16 04:30 am (UTC)I'm happy to have you here.
>> Anyway, I've greatly enjoyed this series so far, so thank you for writing it. <<
Yay! That's good to hear.
>> While I was spurred to comment by the inclusion of Loki (which I do enjoy), I've been reading along for a while, and I love how you explore each character's mind and how they think. <<
Thanks. I like delving into character motivations and personalities like that, especially in a series such as this one where they're trying to fix what's broken inside.
>> I would also like to thank you for the links at the end; I like being able to go read more about things that strike me as interesting. <<
Thanks for letting me know.
>> Sorry for the lack of meaningful content here; I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this series. <<
This is fine. I like feedback, whatever kind you feel inspired to leave.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-15 03:12 am (UTC)When you have an intimate relationship with someone so pervasively abusive, sometimes the defense mechanisms you use to protect yourself end up hurting other people in the family that you love. She doesn't use the same tactics as Dad for the same reasons, but she definitely engages in bouts of blaming, rejection, and scapegoating.
The fact that she's helping Loki in the way she can--to me--shows she's trying. And I appreciate that. My own mother did that for my brother, and now they're happy together with her new family. I'm still very much on the outs with all of them, but hey, at least they have each other and are working through things.
I also really appreciate your extensive link lists and explanations at the end. I love that kind of analysis and associated "real world" meta that drives home the dynamics present in fiction as representations of some people's daily reality.
Welcome!
Date: 2014-05-16 06:47 am (UTC)Yay! This is part of a big series, so there's more if you want to explore Love Is For Children.
>> I like the way this ended. In the beginning, Frigga reminded me a lot of my own mother--someone that I love dearly, but struggle to have a relationship with because of all the damage she's sustained from my father. <<
Ouch. I'm sorry to hear about your family. Frigga and Loki clearly love each other, but the family dynamics are so messed up, they still have problems.
>> When you have an intimate relationship with someone so pervasively abusive, sometimes the defense mechanisms you use to protect yourself end up hurting other people in the family that you love. <<
Yes, exactly. I think that's true for Frigga, Loki, and Thor in different ways.
>> She doesn't use the same tactics as Dad for the same reasons, but she definitely engages in bouts of blaming, rejection, and scapegoating. <<
Sadly so.
>> The fact that she's helping Loki in the way she can--to me--shows she's trying. <<
Yes, she is.
>> And I appreciate that. My own mother did that for my brother, and now they're happy together with her new family. I'm still very much on the outs with all of them, but hey, at least they have each other and are working through things. <<
It's good for people to have each other. Maybe if they get enough things straightened out, someday you'll be able to reconnect in a safer, saner way.
>> I also really appreciate your extensive link lists and explanations at the end. I love that kind of analysis and associated "real world" meta that drives home the dynamics present in fiction as representations of some people's daily reality. <<
I'm glad that helps. I've always tended to include occasional links, but this series is where it has really blossomed based on audience demand. It takes advantage of cyberspace to make literature a more enriched experience by adding nonfiction for folks who want to explore further.
Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-20 01:52 am (UTC)It's definitely invaded my counseling style--I tend to lean towards helping people see themselves as protagonists of their own stories through stories and characters in a variety of roles they identify with strongly.
Thanks for linking me to the full series! I'm looking forward to getting to know your work.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-21 06:02 am (UTC)I'm a fan of them too.
>> but I feel like fiction is at its strongest when it helps people to process and understand the human experience. <<
I agree.
>> I mean, I'm very much for pure escapism as well, <<
There are many reasons for writing, and not all of them need to be deep ones.
>> but I think particularly in areas where someone hasn't directly been through something, encountering it in fiction in an environment conducive to teaching and the enhances such as you're using really helps the reader develop their empathy and awareness into new horizons. <<
That's exactly what I'm aiming for -- and every once in a while, readers confirm for me that it's working.
>> It's definitely invaded my counseling style--I tend to lean towards helping people see themselves as protagonists of their own stories through stories and characters in a variety of roles they identify with strongly. <<
Yes. There are some pretty good books and workbooks on personal storytelling or mythmaking. Studying archetypes is another good step.
>> Thanks for linking me to the full series! I'm looking forward to getting to know your work. <<
You're welcome! I hope you enjoy reading more of it.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-15 06:30 am (UTC)But the writing style you use in the Love is for Children prose pieces is very... clinical? It's very clinical and very self-aware. It states facts about characters' feelings and feelings in general. The thing is, this works okay for the POV of a spy using his awesome powers of observation, analysis and research to understand and help people, but it works very badly to have a character like Loki, who is not particularly self-aware, thinking like this. I mean, if he were already part of Game Night and had been for a while, if he had been analysing it like Phil and basically pulling it apart to see how it worked, then I can totally see him starting to think the way you have him thinking.
Hmm...
Date: 2014-05-16 06:38 am (UTC)Is it worse with Bruce or Hulk than with other characters besides Phil?
Re: Hmm...
Date: 2014-05-16 07:39 am (UTC)Okay. This seems like a problem across your prose series (I went and looked at your new story, even though the subject matter doesn't interest me, and it's even worse there; more on that in a bit), so if I were you (though of course I am not) I'd consider it an urgent thing to fix. I don't personally know a lot about style, but I do see some of the issues clearly and I'm willing to help, and maybe there will be some learning together going on.
there are layers of 'filters' in this series,
Which is why I didn't notice sooner; this fits with the Phil-POV installments. But it's not just a LIFC problem, either, and some of it reminds me of your writing voice when you write nonfiction prose, too.
It may be that the wider the parallax gets, the worse the shear.
I don't take your meaning here.
Is it worse with Bruce or Hulk than with other characters besides Phil?
1. This isn't (as much of?) an issue with your poetry. IDK why not. So toss Saudades out of our sample for some reason. I have a few guesses as to why that is, but couldn't say for sure.
2. I read your Bruce POV prose work quickly and with an eye for content, when the whole idea of a fixing-things arc was new to me and I would have devoured it if it had been written by an android, so set the Bruce POV prose story about shoelaces aside for a moment, too. Let's talk Hulk. Your Hulk POV is good. I like your Hulk POV. Part of this is that making statements of fact about his feelings about the world seems to fit with how you've chosen to characterise him. Your Hulk thinks about whether or not safety is real, whether or not people are nice, how he feels about everything, etc. Fine. Your Hulk is your Hulk, and he's very much himself, too, and not exactly you.
Okay, so, as I said, I wanted to know whether this was something you could break out of in a story where it would be obviously inappropriate and the answer is apparently no. Now, not having any actual interest in Brotherlove, Brotherlust, this could be my bias showing, but I feel like the issue is story-breaking there, contributes to wildly OOC Loki POV here in Am I Not, and was noticeable and somewhat annoying in Hairpins. Since it was so noticeable there, I actually went over B,B part 1 with my metaphorical red pen to see what the problems actually were, not at the squidgy "this feels too clinical" level, but on the level of words, phrases, sentences, paragraphs and scene construction, and I'd be willing to pick similarly at Am I Not and show you the results of either or both.
Now that I think about it, one of the things that I noticed on going over B,B with a metaphorical fine-toothed comb is also a problem in your longer poetic series, but in a different way. More specifically, you have a problem with building tension and conflict. I drew a graph; I could probably try to put it into words if you're interested. Now, for a more traditional writer, that would break any story you tried to write-- but luckily for you you aren't a traditional writer and tension is not a make-or-break issue in most of your stories. At least, not in quite the same way as it is for other people. And I feel like this is maybe too vague, but I can try to get into more detail about it if you're interested. (And of course, I could be wrong about this being where a problem lies.)
But another issue is with your choice of what to show and what to tell-- to put it frankly and risk making a false generalisation, you tell too much about emotions, especially emotional reactions to things ("emotions" vs. "emotional reactions to things" is a distinction that makes 100% more sense in my head; I'm willing to take this to PM and give specific, detailed examples). And another thing is beginning scenes. You have too much telling there, too. It's another thing that works okay in Love is for Children (not the series, the specific story that began the series), and is even a feature rather than a bug, but works a bit worse in Hairpins and is storybreaking in B,B. (It's not present in Am I Not, probably because this is one very long scene.)
If you'd be open to it, I'd like to talk about style with you, and I'd like PMs better than comments for that if you're open to it. I think both of us could learn something from trying to discuss and dissect it, and I feel like I haven't finished explaining or fully explained what I'm talking about here.
Storylistener
Date: 2014-05-15 07:03 am (UTC)Re: Storylistener
Date: 2014-05-16 01:58 am (UTC)It took me a while to figure out how to introduce Loki soon enough to satisfy readers, without mangling the plot threads already in place. Then I realized that I needed to explain how he would get out of prison, and this idea emerged.
>> The fact that you drew from a radically different world (aka cannon) makes it even more special for how you tied it in. GOOD JOB! <<
Yay! I'm glad this worked for you.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-15 05:13 pm (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-16 06:25 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-15 09:30 pm (UTC)Thoughts
Date: 2014-05-16 06:35 am (UTC)Sooth. She loves him very much, even when he's being horrid.
>> I wonder if she realizes how much trouble he's actually in. <<
If Frigga knew how badly hurt Loki really is, then:
A) the Other and any remaining Chitauri would be looking back on that nuke with fondness, and
B) Odin would be chasing his balls down the street with a net.
I think Frigga knows that Loki is upset and injured, and of course Odin's outrage is obvious; but Loki is hiding the true extent of his trouble as much as he can, because in his experience, nobody is willing and able to help him. She isn't looking as hard as she could be, because that would melt down her whole life.
>> I'm very much looking forward to what comes next in this universe. <<
Yay!
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-17 09:16 pm (UTC)-A
Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-18 03:16 am (UTC)I'm delighted to hear that. Currently running is "Blended," a story about Hulk and JARVIS.
>> I love this glimpse of Loki, and I really can't wait to see how things will go when he meets the team again!!! <<
Yay! I really hope I have time to go that far. There is so much to explore, because poor Thor and Loki are such a mess.
Ace-fan
Date: 2014-05-18 09:13 pm (UTC)The thought of all the sparks when he finally gets to meet the Avengers again is intriguing.
I find it really cool that Loki is thinking things through here and working out some of what he really wants, and why what he's tried so far hasn't worked. Clue-having characters are much more fun.
The dynamic between Loki and Clint is particularly interesting. The complications of a character who *is* naturally a follower, fighting that part of him because he's been forced into service, and then also having a mid-link so he understands and has some compassion on the guy who victimised him... And Loki desperately wanting someone like Clint, but knowing that he's screwed it all up, and how the hell does he even begin to make it right when he probably has zero example from his family of how to admit mistakes and make amends... It's very cool. (I mean, totally sucks for the characters, but makes a fascinating story.) I look forward to more!
Re: Ace-fan
Date: 2014-05-19 04:48 am (UTC)One of the things he needs most is agency so that part is essential. Loki has to be able to influence what happens to him, or he's not really a character, just a pawn. In the movies, he's mostly a pawn.
>> and that his mother is still taking care of him in subtle ways. <<
Frigga loves Loki. She just doesn't always know what to do with him.
>> The quote from earlier about finishing his studies was cute. I wanna see Loki get to "play". :D <<
So do I!
>> The thought of all the sparks when he finally gets to meet the Avengers again is intriguing. <<
Enough sparks to light a fire.
>> I find it really cool that Loki is thinking things through here and working out some of what he really wants, and why what he's tried so far hasn't worked. Clue-having characters are much more fun. <<
Agreed. Loki is smart as a whip. He's just been surrounded by a lot of shitty examples for most of his life. That makes it hard for even the people who love him to get any good lessons through the murk.
But when Loki linked minds with Clint and Eric, suddenly his horizons got a lot wider. With more examples, and Clint's considerably better if not always perfect set of mental coping skills, Loki has new options for figuring out what's wrong and how to fix it. Because even prior to game night, Clint had spent a lot of time with Phil and had already overcome many obstacles, so those experiences will help Loki now.
>> The dynamic between Loki and Clint is particularly interesting. The complications of a character who *is* naturally a follower, fighting that part of him because he's been forced into service, and then also having a mid-link so he understands and has some compassion on the guy who victimised him... <<
Plus of course it's not the first time Clint was taken against his will. He's got a lot of negative examples for comparison, but he also has the fact that Phil had to shoot him in order to close contact. What Clint resents is not the service, but being denied a choice and being turned against his own allies. With the link in place they understood each other, which is why not only does Clint sympathize with Loki to some extent, but also Loki -- who had been pretty focused on himself -- now sympathizes with Clint in return, which makes him hate himself more for what he's done.
>> And Loki desperately wanting someone like Clint, but knowing that he's screwed it all up, and how the hell does he even begin to make it right when he probably has zero example from his family of how to admit mistakes and make amends... It's very cool. <<
I'm glad this is working for you. I want to explore how they would actually sort out what has gone wrong between them, and how to fix it so they can salvage the parts they both liked. Fortunately for Loki, the Avengers have gotten plenty of experience in learning and teaching personal problem solving.
>> (I mean, totally sucks for the characters, but makes a fascinating story.) I look forward to more! <<
Sooth.
Wow!
Date: 2014-05-27 02:03 pm (UTC)-RockaffellaSaint
Re: Wow!
Date: 2014-05-28 06:51 am (UTC)Thank you!
>> Its all so very well written and well thought out, and best of all- it makes you THINK. Not just about these characters, but also about your own life and the people around you. <<
I'm happy to hear that. It's exactly what I'm aiming for. I like making people think, especially if they get something good out of it.
>> I've recommended this series to every Avengers fan I know. Thank you. <<
I really appreciate that. I'll post a new section in the perk story.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-30 04:52 pm (UTC)Well...
Date: 2014-05-30 05:45 pm (UTC)Within the series Love Is For Children, Phil was using a Life Model Decoy to confront Loki. The backlash from Loki destroying the LMD was enough to put Phil in a coma for a week (experimental technology has drawbacks).
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-05-31 09:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-08-29 10:53 pm (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2014-08-30 02:13 am (UTC)Thought
Date: 2015-09-04 10:51 am (UTC)And how to get Loki to see that Thor's offensive behavior is, by and large, the unintentional results of bad parenting and terrible examples, without re-enforcing his "Nobody ever listens to me and accepts my POV as valid" and "Of course, it isn't Thor's fault. It's NEVER his fault, even when it is."
Not saying that Thor doesn't deserve some sternness for his bad behavior - Steve will be subjecting him to the Captain America Is Very Disappointed In You / Steve Rogers Is Very Disappointed In You attack combo. Which, as we all know, is a weapon of great and terrible power.
And is anyone going to scent danger in the Black Widow vs Loki front? (Because it is definitely Widow whenever she deals with Loki). If they aren't, that will get very ugly very quickly and spread out to entire team. Of course, seeing the danger probably wouldn't stop that ugly blow-out. It's like an avalanche.
Good thing the World's Mightiest Handler is on their side. And Phil is going to need every piece in his arsenal and whatever else he can beg/borrow/steal to even START fixing this mess.
I like Am I Not
Date: 2017-12-16 12:42 am (UTC)ChickaDelSol
Re: I like Am I Not
Date: 2017-12-16 12:55 am (UTC)Me too.
>> I think he is complicated and he is suffering but he has a great potential.<<
Exactly. Add in a bit of the original mythology and you've got some serious rocket fuel. :D
>> I love what you wrote. Thank you.
ChickaDelSol <<
You're welcome!
(no subject)
Date: 2018-09-28 01:56 pm (UTC)