ysabetwordsmith | Category 6 Isn't Enough

From: (Anonymous)

I'll argue that there are different evacuation settings for:
- running would be good (likely individual choice)
- organized retreat (likely organized/mandated on a mass scale)
- GETOUTGETOUTGETOUTGETOUT...! (At this point, you're evac-ing folks under the "as many as can fit, regulations be dammned," and also, it'll probably be random Heroic Bystanders hauling ass and collecting hangers-on, rather than anything official)

Cynically there'd also likely be a "We doomed no matter what" setting...but if we make that one official, we'll likely get a Screw the Rules, It's the Apocalypse.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I'll argue that there are different evacuation settings for:
- running would be good (likely individual choice)
- organized retreat (likely organized/mandated on a mass scale) <<

The government tries to do this, indicating areas of greatest risk, and suggesting that more vulnerable individuals evacuate for milder storms that able-bodied people might survive just fine. It would be more effective if the government was actually trustworthy. As it is, people often resist leaving their homes because they have repeatedly seen other storms where people that left were looted, not allowed to return, and/or otherwise got screwed. Doesn't do much to flee the storm only to be killed by a country that wants poor people to die. :/

>> - GETOUTGETOUTGETOUTGETOUT...! (At this point, you're evac-ing folks under the "as many as can fit, regulations be dammned," and also, it'll probably be random Heroic Bystanders hauling ass and collecting hangers-on, rather than anything official) <<

Time to hotwire a bus. \o/

>> Cynically there'd also likely be a "We doomed no matter what" setting...but if we make that one official, we'll likely get a Screw the Rules, It's the Apocalypse. <<

Well reasoned.

From: (Anonymous)

>>It would be more effective if the government was actually trustworthy.<<

It would be more effective if the government facilitated transport (including medically-compatible transport) and housing at destinations.

I live with someone who has very specific medical needs for everything from vehicle accessibility to adaptive equipment to /specific features on a bed/. Evac plans must and do factor in these needs...

Less dramatically, pets, babies and old folks will have different needs than an able-bodied adult. Fortunately 'people with pet cats' and 'people with young children's will be numerous enough, and have similar enough needs that it is easier to plan for then individual medically-fragile persons.

>>Time to hotwire a bus. \o/ <<

...and pray they don't shoot you for looting. (Have a respectable-looking person do the hotwiring or supply runs, if you can. Preferably not single parents, caretakers, or medical personnel if you can avoid it.)

Historical examples would include Dunkirk, the 9/11 evacuation of Manhattan, the Cajun Navy and the Great Needlework Drives of just last year.

And anyone who wants to object, can kindly offer a better alternative, thank-you very much. [Crickets] No-one? All right then, let's move!

From:

siliconshaman

I'd suggest a revision of the classification system too.. wind speed is not the only factor determining how dangerous a storm is. Size matters. Speed too... both determine how long this storm is going to grind away at an area, and how far you have to run or even if you can out run it.

I would suggest combining spread and velocity so as not to overload people. Dividing spread by velocity of the system. So you'd have things like a Cat 5,10 (sustained windspeed of 160. 300 miles wide and moving at 30 miles an hour)

Although...kind of wish we could work in a Stormageddon in there...

From:

kengr

It's actually *worse* than that. Wind effects don't go up *linearly* with velocity. More like the square of the velocity if I recall correctly.

Time for a re-read of John Barnes's Mother of All Storms

From:

ysabetwordsmith

There are different ways to design a chart of intensity depending on what you want to convey. I looked at the current chart, noted that its previous categories were near 20, and expanded it based on that.

To make a chart reflecting effects vs. velocity as a square function, you would need to start over from scratch.

There is also something to be said for a chart based on actions derived from probable effects. Both Category 4 and Category 5 are often described as "complete destruction," like those pictures were there is nothing but flotsam left after a storm. I personally believe a more detailed chart would be helpful, but some people might just want "minor damage / take precautions and stay," "severe damage / evacuate," and "total devastation / run for your lives."

From:

erulisse

And this would be a good portion of why we left Houston.....

From:

ysabetwordsmith

That is very sensible of you. Houston seems like one of the places prone to environmental foreclosure soon.

From:

siberian_skys

And that explains in a nut shell why I want to get out of a coastal state. Of course, I have no idea where to go. It seems like there's no place to go now.

From: (Anonymous)

Assuming you are in the continental US, I'd suggest:

A) Inland (to avoid hurricanes, costal flooding and tsunamis)

B) Away from fault lines (this eliminates much of the West Coast, also the midwest fault line is becoming active again)

C) Head north (to avoid heat, but be aware the Great Lakes region has some wicked cold snaps)

D) Lastly, pay attention to assorted regional stuff:
- Will the local river flood, and if so how badly?
- Is there a dam upriver?
- Is there a nuclear plant in the area? Are you in a possible fallout zone?
- Are there specific disasters common to your location? (Tornadoes, wildfires, landslides, dangerous wildlife...)
- How close are you to a city? Compare your need for city services vs the likelihood of Invading Refugees during a crisis/collapse.
- Are you a good fit for the local culture?
- How much can you plan for or live with any of these things?

E) Also, look at infrastructure - roads, medical care, utilities, communications. Do they fit your needs? How much damage can they take before being knocked out? Can you live with that?

F) If planning for an apocalypse / societal collapse, you'll want to check other things (local production of necessities, social net, defensibility...) but that's a whole different list.

From: (Anonymous)

Personally, I'd go for the Northeast, a bit inland - colder, can keep heading north if need be, away from cities, has mountains and nature, and I can live with the occasional polar vortex. Plus there are several lake and river systems that make for good transport if the roads go down, and they don't seem to have too many big storms.

Overseas? Iceland and Northern Europe might be a good bet, with Europe having the added benefit of making a run for the border if everything goes wrong...of course then everyone in Eurasia can do that, so Icelend might be a better bet...

From:

siberian_skys

Thank you so much. I'm in Florida, so this is perfect. I've been thinking about my home state, which is probably not a great idea. I hadn't realized that our friendly neighborhood fault line has woken up. I grew-up in Indiana and I've been in 3 or 4 earthquakes. Nothing big, but enough to feel. I know it's way over due for a big earthquake. It can't be 1good when you consider that fault line turned around the Mississippi River and rang church bells in Boston in the 1800s. I don't remember the exact year. I just remember watching a documentary once. I'm bookmarking this. Thanks again.

From: (Anonymous)

You're welcome.

Another thought: I have heard that the panhandle part of FL is more stable than the peninsula part; I actually know people who chose (when moving to FL) to go to the northernmost parts where all the hurricane evacuees go. (I have suggested they not buy any more property...)

If a cross-country move is not currently feaseable, a northward move might be a slight improvement?

I don't know the specifics of your situation: resources, limitations, other long-term goals etc, so you have to decide for you, but I thought I'd mention it.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Almost all of Florida is high risk, except the westernmost tip of the panhandle is moderate risk. Much of the east coast of Florida and beyond it has the highest risk. Parts of Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi have moderate risk, and north of that, none.

From: (Anonymous)

The further north-and-inland the safer you are. Hopefully even a bit more distance will dull a storm/flood a bit.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

That is true. The southern end of Florida is basically a big sponge. Partway up, the center gets more solid, although that won't keep it above water forever. It is better for the time being.

From:

siberian_skys

I live in the north central part where evacuees go. Good news is that I'm too far away from storm surge, but can still get high winds, flooding and tornadoes. Fortunately, I'm not currently in a flood plane. The last big hurricane took out a lot of power. We had power at the house, thankfully, but the stop and go lights were out for days and we were on a generator at work. Most of the houses around where I worked had no power for two weeks. I felt guilty for having power at home.

From: (Anonymous)

If it happens again, and you are so inclined, you could offer to let folks charge phones and medical devices.

Or let people you know well enough heat soup in your kitchen...

Well, assuming your neighbors aren't jerks, anyway.

From:

siberian_skys

I worked an hour from where I lived, so unfortunately that wouldn't have helped in that case, but if it had happened with the neighbors we would have. We know the neighbors on each side and some down the street and around the corner. My co-workers who worked closer to work could at least take advantage of the plugs at work. It was awful at work. So many people without power. The energy company in that town should have been ashamed of itself. They have a reputation for being a joke. That's the other thing I want to try to look in before I move--where the power comes from.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Also look for options that you can install yourself: solar panels, a generator, geothermal heat, a windmill, etc. Some places have perk programs for these. The more independent you can be, the better.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/femp/renewable-energy-maps-and-tools

https://www.eia.gov/state/maps.php

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/renewable-sources/incentives.php

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/services/incentives-and-financing-energy-efficient-homes

From: (Anonymous)

There are solar battery chargers too. And flashlights/headlamps if planning for power outages.

I've made a necklace out of a pocket flashlight - good for wandering around at night w/o turning out the lights. Just be careful - it doesn't always show what's right by your feet.

From: (Anonymous)

Oh, and I've heard it suggested that an electric car could be used as a big battery in a pinch.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

A multifunction hand-cranked tool is a good investment. You can get features like radio, flashlight, USB charger, etc.

https://www.skilledsurvival.com/hand-crank-radio/

From:

siberian_skys

Living off the grid as much as possible would be nice. I draw the line at plumbing, though. Hopefully one of these years I can I change to an electric car. I've been thinking I should have put off the trade-ins until this year. I've been wanting to see the new VW bus. I have a felling that''s going to be out of my price range. It's probably more car than I need anyway.

From: (Anonymous)

The 2024 looks pricey, by my standards.

I've heard something about a conversion kit for older models, but if you're going to be driving an antique you'd better be friendly with the local mechanic (or be one yourself!)

Also be sure to factor in parts/repairs - some older or imported cars might use less-standard parts that are hard to source.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Something that's 5-10 years old is likely a good bet.

Also there are conversions for some other vehicles. Springer vans are very popular for campervans.

From: (Anonymous)

Speaking of campers, I've mused on the possibility of using a cargo trailer as a camper.

Either get an enclosed one and modify it to lock on the inside (and check airflow!) Or get an open-air one and cover with a tarp. Kind of like a modern covered wagon - cargo and sleeping space.

Plus when you're /not/ using it to camp, you have all the advantages of a pickup truck without having to worry about limited seating, gas mileage, driving an oversized vehicle...

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Those can work. I also know that some people have modified horse trailers for camper space, because those are so sturdy.

From:

fianna9

Look at old school buses too. Those can make large campers for families.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

If a new one costs too much, look for used ones several years old whose owners are trading them in for the newest model.

From: (Anonymous)

Older vehicles are less likely to have random bugs - or the ones they do have will be more easily fixable.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Modern vehicles are not only less drivable by me, they are less ridable. By the time it switches to electric vehicles, it won't even be safe for me to be on the road with them. So it's a good thing that I'm less interested in going places, and have largely ceased to give a fuck about other people.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Thank you so much. I'm in Florida, so this is perfect. I've been thinking about my home state, which is probably not a great idea. <<

Run awaaaayyy!!!!

Florida will be submerging. The more water melts, the more will go under, but people will be driven out long before it all sinks. Sunny day floods drive out businesses and ruin homes.

https://news.wjct.org/post/rising-seas-may-mean-tampa-bay-floods-even-during-sunny-days

https://westontitle.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Roy-Oppenheim-Global-Warming.jpg

Furthermore, the tipping point is getting close, because ordinary people are starting to notice these things. The value of coastal housing is currently high, but when it crashes it will probably go very fast. Then people in places like Florida won't be able to sell out to idiots, and will probably just have to flee with what they can carry.

>>I hadn't realized that our friendly neighborhood fault line has woken up. I grew-up in Indiana and I've been in 3 or 4 earthquakes. Nothing big, but enough to feel. I know it's way over due for a big earthquake. It can't be 1good when you consider that fault line turned around the Mississippi River and rang church bells in Boston in the 1800s. I don't remember the exact year. I just remember watching a documentary once. <<

Another friend pointed out that, as icecaps melt, that causes the crust to spring up under where they were. That spring causes other adjustments elsewhere in the crust. Adjustments = earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. 0_o

>>I'm bookmarking this. Thanks again.<<

*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.

From:

siberian_skys

I've been contemplating fleeing if I can figure out how to do that. I've been looking online for house, condo and apartment prices. Housing prices are alarming, not that I'm all that surprised.

From: (Anonymous)

Some jobs offer relocation assistance, if you've got the right skillset.

Might be a long shot, but...

From:

siberian_skys

Unfortunately, that's not my situation. I never thought I'd be starting over in my 50s, but considering the pandemic I know I'm not alone. I don't remember the number that I saw the other day, but a huge number of women had to give up their jobs during this crazy time.

From: (Anonymous)

They are saying women's rights have been set back by what a decade? Two?

I'm a younger person, and all if this makes me even less enthused about a career in the traditional sense - "Come work for me and I'll pay you terribly while restricting your free time, and dont you dare complain, you should be grateful to be working at all!" Ugh.

And 'give up'? That sounds kind of like a choice...maybe we should say 'forced out' instead.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

The government simply declared that work was a privilege that could be revoked from above at any time. Nobody has a right to work. So that's evil, and obviously unsustainable, but people agreed to it so now they are stuck with it. This is among the more blatantly unconstitutional abuses (violating "the right of the people peaceably to assemble") but nobody cared. Good luck getting rights back without a civil war.

From: (Anonymous)

I think the issue with women's rights specifically is largely that when schools closed, someone had to stay home with the kids and that was mostly women. (Not helped by the fact that grandparents were advised to stay away from...well, everyone.)

Granted, some of the industries that closed were likely predominantly women, and women are more likely to be badly affected by economic hits due to wage disparities the whole glass ceiling/glass elevator thing.

As for the work in general...Godzilla Threshold? Personally, I'm mostly annoyed with:

a) 'poverty is due to laziness, and lazy people deserve to suffer' ... when crossed with the current economic / public health situation where people can't find work or can't find work that wont kill them/their relatives

b) medical advice and economic necessity at odds (this is not a new issue)

c) insisting that essential workers are greedy for wanting pay raises (which was actually discussed in 1351 after the Black Death killed off a chunk of the English serfs)

d) and while we're at it, I wish people would stop screaming at each other - we're all scared, we're all having a hard time, but even if we disagree, we're all mostly trying to do the right thing as best as we can. [Comment directed at the world in general, not anyone specific...]

From:

siberian_skys

I think forced out is the better term.

I've been thinking about what to do that isn't traditional. Since I'm starting over, then I should do something I love and not just put up with.

From: (Anonymous)

Favorite hobbies? Or anything you've developed skills in and can mentor/consult? (And they're not all obvious: customer service -> peacemaking & deescelation & negotiation, for example.)

I've been toying with writing or art, but havent mustered up the motivation to start anything. (I had a relative who fed his family by making & selling his art through the Great Depression, so it is possible to make a living that way...if somewhat difficult.)

I've also got a crazy idea for a sewing pattern I could try to develop...

From:

siberian_skys

I've actually got a book that I need to get to. It's about turning your hobbies into a job.

The sewing pattern idea is cool. I know people sell those on Etsy, so not so crazy.

From: (Anonymous)

Huh. I did not know that. Thanks!

From:

siberian_skys

You're welcome. I didn't either until I went looking for fabric scraps.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Consider:

https://www.mantelligence.com/hobbies-that-make-money/

https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/jobs/odd-jobs-that-pay-well/

https://www.moneycrashers.com/jobs-require-no-experience/

From:

ysabetwordsmith

On that note, check high-need industries. These often have relocation or even retraining programs, and some have signing bonuses. Look both in your current area and in areas where you wish to move.

https://www.udacity.com/blog/2021/02/hiring-trends-for-2021-which-jobs-are-in-demand.html

https://www.kens5.com/article/life/looking-for-a-job-here-are-the-top-10-careers-with-a-worker-shortage/273-6104aa07-11e6-49b7-8f2f-407deb8715c8

A few towns have move-in bonuses -- sometimes as large as a free house! -- in areas that are depopulating. These are ideal for anyone with a portable career: writers, artists, homesteaders, app programmers, etc. It would be advisable to develop some sort of portable career.

https://www.slice.ca/20-surprising-jobs-you-can-do-from-anywhere-2/

https://www.flexjobs.com/blog/post/top-companies-work-from-anywhere-remote-jobs/

https://evergreendimes.com/work-from-home-jobs-for-military-spouses/

https://www.travelinglifestyle.net/digital-nomad-jobs/

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Affordable housing maps:

http://googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/2021/02/the-affordable-housing-map.html

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-cost-rent-140-north-american-cities/

Cheapest places to live:

https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/cheapest-places-to-live

https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/places-to-live/601488/25-cheapest-us-cities-to-live-in

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-affordable-small-town-in-every-state-2019-5

https://rurallivingtoday.com/rural-living/living-in-the-country-best-rural-places-to-live/

Anywhere people are leaving should offer better housing prices than places people are piling into.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-population-change-by-county-2010-2018/

From:

siberian_skys

Thank you. These should give me a lot of starting points.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Regarding disaster types, plan first for the ones that are more frequent and predictable. If you live in a snowy area, you know to keep plentiful resources in winter because at some point the roads WILL get blocked. Once you have covered those, plan for lower probability disasters.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> And that explains in a nut shell why I want to get out of a coastal state. <<

That is very prudent. Most coastal areas are vulnerable to storms and rising waters.

>> Of course, I have no idea where to go. It seems like there's no place to go now. <<

Well, nowhere is 100% safe, because that's life. But some places are much more dangerous than others. Factors to consider:

* Places that are already uncomfortably hot will become uninhabitably hot. Generally the population will shift toward the poles.

* Different places will see different effects from climate change. Think about what you can live with.

* Places subject to many threats are less desirable than places subject to fewer threats.

https://survivalskills.guide/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/bug-out-bag-list-map-nuclear-seismic-hazards.gif

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTSP1iwXUAEviEG.jpg

* Consider whether the threat is easy to dodge or mitigate. Small threats, like tornadoes, are not as dangerous as large ones like hurricans because undamaged areas will be nearby to assist in cleanup. A dome home or earthberm is resistant to storm, fire, and quake; a hillside house will elude floods.

* Geology can suggest durable areas too. A piece of continent that has been there extremely long, like the Canadian Shield, probably has lower risk of geologic hazards such as earthquakes and volcanoes that stir up the stones.

* Cities are not great places to be when the shit hits the fan. The less walkable they are, the more vulnerable they are to transportation failures. Happily, there are many towns and even small cities that are older and have good grids. The Midwest and Northeast are emptying out, and therefore cheap now, but much of that territory will become extremely valuable in the foreseeable future.

* Pick out a handful of possible places. Research the news for each, looking at the types of disasters they have faced in the last several decades. Consider that some of these -- such as storms and wildfires -- will be greatly exacerbated by climate change while others like volcanoes will have little or no impact from it. When you get down to househunting, do the same thing, and don't expect other people to be responsible about disclosing risks. Don't buy a place that has suffered flood, fire, or storm damage in ways that make it likely to recur, especially if it's already happened more than once.

* There are at least a couple of different major strategies from historic cultures faced with predictable disasters.
** Egyptian model: Build with really big rocks. When the Nile begins to rise, bug out to the desert carrying all your portable goods. When the Nile recedes, go home, rinse off all the mud, and put your stuff back.
** Japanese model: Build with really flimsy, fast-growing materials. When an earthquake or tsunami strikes, people are less likely to be crushed under debris, while cleanup and reconstruction are fast and easy.

In modern terms, a monolithic dome is Egyptian style and a yurt on a slab is Japanese style. There are even people who still like tipis because you can break down and bug out very quickly if something nasty is headed your way. Don't be afraid to mine the past for solutions to modern problems!

From:

siberian_skys

Thank you. I'm going to bookmark this as well. There is so much to think about. More than I was taking into account recently. I've been worried about water and fire more than anything else. I keep wondering why there isn't more dome building. It makes the most sense especially when you consider the hurricanes.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Thank you. I'm going to bookmark this as well. <<

I'm happy I could help.

>> There is so much to think about. More than I was taking into account recently. <<

If you look around online, or ask a librarian for help, you will see that many people have been mulling over these problems. So you can sift their materials for what you need.

>> I've been worried about water and fire more than anything else. <<

Wildfire risks cover about the western third of America. Flood risks are much patchier but include the entire east and south coastline due to hurricanes. Large parts of the interior have minimal risk for these two hazards.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/1a/77/6d1a7786baff5a06161084f8b840ff79.png

>> I keep wondering why there isn't more dome building. <<

The two main reasons are 1) it's way different than conventional housing and 2) trying to adapt square furnishings to a round building is a pain in the ass. I recommend considering traditional layouts from round structures, which often fit better. If you look at many different floorplans for dome homes, you'll see that some are much better than others.

This is my go-to reference site for concrete domes:
https://www.monolithic.org/
https://www.monolithic.org/domes
https://www.monolithic.org/press-fact-sheet
https://www.monolithic.org/homes
https://www.monolithic.org/homes/floorplans

Geodesic domes are modular:
https://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/dome_homes/

>> It makes the most sense especially when you consider the hurricanes. <<

No shit. You can't beat a spheroid for sturdiness. Storms roll right over them. If you are concerned about extreme weather, you can pay quite a lot extra for storm-resistant doors/windows.

A comparison of pros and cons:

https://legaleaglecontractors.com/dome-home-guide

And sources:

https://buildgreennh.com/dome-house-ideas/

From: (Anonymous)

>>If you look around online, or ask a librarian for help, you will see that many people have been mulling over these problems. So you can sift their materials for what you need.<<

This is a good place to crowdsource problems. We've got a lot of smart people here!

:)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

I am deeply pleased by the fact that I have assembled a fantastic think tank in my audience by telling cool stories and setting "don't be a dick" as a groundrule. <3

From: (Anonymous)

The intellectual offerings are very good!

And I did lurk about a bit before decloaking enough to leave comments - I'm usually fairly leery of internet commenting.

I think this is one of the four nicest [comment-filled] places I've found on the internet so far.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Aww, shucks. I'm glad you find it so appealing.

From: (Anonymous)

:)

From:

siberian_skys

The monolithic style is so cool. I would think you'd have to free float an island and put the cabinets in it.

I've also thought about having a house built out of shipping containers. If they can take an ocean voyage that might be an idea as well. I suppose it doesn't matter if I can get out of this ridiculous state.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> The monolithic style is so cool.<<

I agree. Also, if you don't want it to look like gray concrete, you can:

1) Stripe it in green/brown (forest) or gold/brown (prairie) to blend in.

2) Paint it any typical house color.

3) Invite local graffiti artists to decorate it probably for free.

4) Pay a lot for an artistic mural.

>> I would think you'd have to free float an island and put the cabinets in it. <<

That's one option, but there are several that work well.

This is a basic wedge design in a small dome.

Here's a big dome with a central island and wedges. A clear winner in the big floorplans.

This large dome uses wedges but leaves the center open.

This is a variation of the wedge approach, using roughly half and two quarters.

This one is almost a Mies apartment (minimal walls) which reduces the straight/curve conflicts, but uses central cabinets for some division. Really nice for one person.

If you try too hard to make a round thing square, it turns into a real kludge. Don't.

>> I've also thought about having a house built out of shipping containers. If they can take an ocean voyage that might be an idea as well. I suppose it doesn't matter if I can get out of this ridiculous state.<<

Shipping containers can work if you understand their pros and cons. They are quite sturdy but need help with temperature control because they are metal. One container is plenty for a single person and acceptable for a couple. Two can be stacked, but you can also make a fantastic expansion by bridging a roof between them horizontally.

Here is a great set of flexible plans for a small shipping container -- these are ideal for disaster shelters.

This is a typical example for a large container.

This set shows a range of 1-3 bedrooms with 1 or 2 containers.

2-story plans can be found for small and large containers.

If you want to minimize your grid dependence, consider a composting toilet. You can buy one or make your own.

From:

siberian_skys

I like the idea of a composting toilet, but I don't know if I have the stomach for that.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Done right, they are no smellier than water toilets.

Cultural differences are interesting -- in some countries, people don't like soiling water, or find toilets less appealing than whatever traditional option. There's a magnificent rant about government housing in Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions with the epic line "Throw out that thing to piss in, I won't use him!"

You might explore different types of composting toilet to see if anything appeals to you. They are popular for vardos, tiny homes, and off-grid living which seem to overlap your interests. If you meet people in those contexts, ask if you can explore their composting toilets.

You may also wish to read this book:
https://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html

From:

siberian_skys

Thanks for the link.

I love the idea of a tiny house. I miss the tiny house shows that used to be on HGTV and the like. My only issue is that I need one that doesn't have a loft. I'm getting too old for that.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

There are plenty of nonloft designs. Alternatively you could just leave the loft area empty for air circulation.

This one is adorable with great space division.

Here is a concise little cottage.

This one has an indoor garage.

There are a few ADA plans, like this one, if you want to think ahead for mobility issues.

Here is a site with many free or cheap plans.

From:

siberian_skys

These are adorable. I have been thinking about ADA for down the road. I am not getting any younger.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Bear in mind:

* It is much easier to make things accessible during the build than as retrofits.

* There is no such thing as "universal design" because different people have different needs. There are just things that are helpful or troublesome to larger ranges of people.

* There are many disabilities, they need different accommodations, and what helps one may make another worse. Attempt to predict your body's most likely failure modes.

* Some features, especially for wheelchair accessibility, have big impacts on space. In a small area these can be devastating. Kneespace removes storage space, wider hallways and larger bathrooms waste square footage on areas rarely used, and so on. Making a tiny house both accessible and livable can be extremely difficult.

* If you need grab bars, forget the ugly overpriced medical ones. Buy stair rails, which have to be just as strong, but come in a zillion styles at affordable prices and can be cut to any length you want. They even have other shapes than round for better grip.

From:

siberian_skys

It's a little bit funny, but shouldn't be. My Mom tried thinking ahead when she and my Dad built the house that I'm living in right now. She made sure that the doorways and hallways were built wide enough to accommodate a wheelchair, but there is no way that you could get a wheelchair into the bathroom. There is a lip on the shower and a ridiculous sized bathtub across from the shower door. I don't know what she was thinking.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

She probably thought of things she knew about, but lacked the experience to understand what else could cause problems. Most people are that way. And they rarely ask a wheelchair user to look over their plans or roll through the floorplan to see if it really works. It's very hard to think of things you've never encountered.

I've seen an electric wheelchair stall out over a 1/4" threshold, sometimes 1/8" inch. I also know that water goes down no matter how hard you try to keep it contained. So if I were designing an ADA bathroom, I'd probably go for a wetroom with a rollover hill at the edge of the shower, sloping down to a drain, rather than any kind of applied threshold. But I'd have to look up turning radius, and I'd have the sense to ask if any of my friends know what kind of fixture layouts are most convenient on wheels or with other challenges.

From: (Anonymous)

Always ask someone with lived experience, if you can. (Disabilities, discrimination, safety...)

With wheelchairs, able-bodied folk often think of doorways and ramps... but will often forget or not think of things like doors that are inoperable by positioning of furniture, steepness of ramps, height of chairs being easier/harder to get into, the fact that cobblestones/brick/sand are inacessable, bathroom logistics, and so on.

Also, accommodations will be different for electric and manual chirs,as well as for different kinds of disability.

A paraplegic athlete has very different needs than, say, someone with severe TBI. Different patients with TBI can have an astonishing variety of mobility and ability.

(I am able-bodied, and picked up most of this info by social osmosis. Therefore, I've probably missed something...or several somethings.)

From:

siberian_skys

That's the odd thing. We used to bring my grandmother home from the nursing home for family dinners from time to time and dealing with her wheelchair in my childhood house was not easy. Apparently she forgot about that. But, it would be smart to ask the advice of someone who is actually in a wheelchair or at the very least a physical therapist.

From: (Anonymous)

People I picked up this information from:

- physical therapist with auto mechanic and engineering training

- someone who has limited mobility [can only really use head & hands] and uses an electric wheelchair

- someone who is paraplegic (for reasons we ended up discussing various accessibility stuff)

- having discussions in cyberspace like this

If you are asking a wheelchair user, try asking someone with similar equipment and limitations. 'Impared mobility' occurs in a lot of different ways.

Granted, I'm used to crazy juryrigging stuff, and not having access to relevent resources (including experts.) Hmmm...I've heard of people crowdsourcing solutions/advice to problems on Reddit; maybe that would be an option?

From:

ysabetwordsmith

People have also crowdsourced solutions here, as they admire my large and widely experienced audience.

From: (Anonymous)

Yup. But I try to refrain from imposing unless:

a) it is a particularly fascinating discussion topic

b) it is relevent to a discussion that is already occurring

It seems more polite that way (as opposed to the whole 'treating smart people like vending machines' thing).

From:

ysabetwordsmith

There's a different between pestering one individual in person and asking an audience online. Here, people can choose to answer if it's interesting and convenient, or not. They seem generally helpful. This is especially true when a question relates to someone's causes -- there are plenty of folks here agitating for more accessible housing.

From: (Anonymous)

Avoiding the whole 'ettiquite demands you stay in an akward conversation' stuff is one of the reasons I like these discussions. Plus I [introvert] have more time to formulate replies.

I'll still try to 'read the room' a bit, and either stick to conversations or acknowledge that I'm asking something out to left field.

And yeah, my brain accumulates a lot of really oddball ideas, musings and wonderings. (Digging through my brain can be like beachcombing after a storm.)

From: (Anonymous)

>>Cultural differences are interesting -- in some countries, people don't like soiling water, or find toilets less appealing than whatever traditional option.<<

One day I'll have to write a story with this as a Culture Clash.

Rude Person: "Why the hey are you teaching people how to go to the bathroom? Are y'all stupid?"
Explaining Person: "Nope, we just don't have bathrooms like this back home. And Janitor Joe will get really mad if someone breaks the bathroom...again."
RP: [Sarcastically] "You expect me to believe you don't have toilets?"
EP: "Nope!" [Cue matter of fact explanation of holes-in-the-ground as batherooms...
RP: [...and an increasingly weirded-out face from the rude person.]
EP: [Returns to explaining that toilets are safe, hygienic, not a place to put random garbage, and not a portal to the Underworld Realm of the Sewer King]

From:

ysabetwordsmith

This has come up variously in:

* The Rutledge thread of Polychrome Heroics where Syrians are used to squat toilets instead of seated toilets, and also need decent wudu facilities.

* At least one reservation, probably in Polychrome Heroics, regarding outhouses.

* Officer Pink in Polychrome, where Conrad's farm uses haybale urinals and has come up with various options for centaur toilets.

* At least one other reference in Polychrome Heroics to universal multispecies toilets such as large sandboxes.

* Composting toilets for vardos and tiny houses in Polychrome Heroics.

* Daughters of the Apocalypse has several references to sanitation needs or failures.

Feel free to prompt for more, I'm fascinated by potty tech.

From: (Anonymous)

It never the obvious things that trip you up; it's always the things that are so obvious (or occasionally, akward) that no-one thinks to (or wants to) mention them.

For what it's worth, I think theres a whole class of cultural misunderstandings (and other akward things) that can be cleared up with a very matter-of-fact explanation. Assuming that's in your skillset, anyway. (And that the other person isn't just a jerk.)

...and it is a /great/ nonviolent way to make the story antagonist's life just that much more difficult. Bwahahaha!

From:

fianna9

Like when I was in a mall in Japan not designed with tourists in minde. The bathrooms had a circle and a triangle on the door; no typical American stick figures. One was blue tile; one was green tile. My husband and I debated which one we were supposed to use.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Watching other people will usually resolve that, if you can identify clear categories and match them to yourself.

As much as I like the funny stick figures, unicorns, and unicycles used on all-gender bathrooms, I have to admit that a picture of a toilet is crystal-clear across all cultures that use toilets.

From: (Anonymous)

Check out the anti-grafitti murals in Philadelphia.

For insulation, an underground house or something encased in dirt (like a hobbit-house) might help.

Given that shipping containers are metal, I might worry about rust. There is good anti-trust paint, but it is very pricey per can.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> For insulation, an underground house or something encased in dirt (like a hobbit-house) might help.<<

Yes, that works very well both for insulation and for storm protection.

>> Given that shipping containers are metal, I might worry about rust. There is good anti-trust paint, but it is very pricey per can.<<

Rust is a threat in wet climates, not so much in deserts.

https://www.discovercontainers.com/shipping-container-home-rust-and-corrosion-treatment/

https://caddetailsblog.com/post/how-should-i-protect-my-shipping-container-home-from-rust

One option is to spray the outside with waterproof insulation. This is a good choice if you plan to bury the container or clad the outside in some other material.

From: (Anonymous)

There was a guy who built a nuclear fallout bunker by (I think) burying a bunch of school buses encased in concrete.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

People have done all kinds of weird stuff. I suspect that concrete blocks would be easier and cheaper -- you can buy a few at a time and carry them by hand if necessary. They're like grownup Legos.

From:

siberian_skys

I'm amazed by peoples creativity. I saw a couple of different people that built in nuclear launch silos. I don't know what you're supposed to do with that much space, but you'd be safe down there.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Some people have built community shelters in silos.

Over in Terramagne, Dr. Infanta bought one. She has an offshoot for her personal bunker, a barn and "farmyard" for Judd, and the main silo for her people and storage.

From:

siberian_skys

It seems like such a cool idea. You could build an apartment building, I would think.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

See examples:

https://survivalcondo.com/

https://newatlas.com/luxury-survival-condos/34861/

From:

siberian_skys

I am bookmarking. I can't wait to look at these.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Also from my writing:

https://ysabetwordsmith.dreamwidth.org/10175262.html

https://ysabetwordsmith.dreamwidth.org/10174855.html

https://ysabetwordsmith.dreamwidth.org/11802193.html

From:

siberian_skys

Looking forward to reading these. Thank you. :-)

From: (Anonymous)

Hmmm...I wonder about the feasibility of Japanese-style on the West Coast (USA), given our lovely supervolcano. Might not be the best fit for ash fall and fires though...

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Japanese materials are flammable, but again, very fast and easy to replace.

If you want something less flammable for California, consider things like adobe, earthberm, concrete, or other earth-related building styles that offer little to burn. And don't build in fire chimneys.

From: (Anonymous)

More idle musing than anything else. I'm East Coast, and would ideally head north from here.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Inland northeast has some pretty good territory. Once you're out of reach from the storms, there's not a lot else to worry about, except snow/cold which is ubiquitous at those latitudes. As population density is very low and many towns are emptying, quite nice property is available cheap in much of the northeast. I've seen it the most in Vermont but there are lots of similar places.

From: (Anonymous)

Hmmm...perhaps I should investigate the possibility of land investment.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

If you have the money to invest in land, there are some truly excellent opportunities. It would take considerable research -- I recommend consulting a professional futurist if you can find one -- but much is already available for you to peruse.

Strong Towns has extensive materials on what makes a resilient and enjoyable community. That will tell you a lot about what kinds of features to watch for and avoid.

Transition Towns are more particularly focused on climate change and other major threats, with an eye toward using local community to survive them.

Use a population loss map to identify areas where people are leaving. These typically have real estate much cheaper than areas where people are packing in. You will note that lots of people are crowding into areas that are marginal and getting worse. Their pain can be your gain.

Features particularly valuable in the future:
* Buildings that can reasonably house lots of people without feeling too crowded.
* Plenty of natural resources such as arable land, standing timber, surface or well water, etc.
* Defensibility such as a basement or storm shelter.
* Plan B equipment in case conventional methods fail, e.g. a woodstove or fireplace if the heat goes out, high ceilings and crosscurrent windows in case the air conditioning dies.

Ideally, you want good internet connection, as this enables both socializing and work without depending on local opportunities.

From: (Anonymous)

I'm no millionaire, but it doesn't hurt to keep my eyes sharp and my wits quick.

And if a crowdsource investment came up, that might be more affordable.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

In that case add intentional community. It has a branch called sharehousing where several people, who may or may not be related, buy a large house together. Keep an eye out for farmhouses, which have little demand nowadays, but often make great sharehouses.

https://www.ic.org/

https://www.ic.org/householding-communal-living-on-a-small-scale/

From: (Anonymous)

Not sure I have the skills for same-house group living. Not sure I'm in a reliable place to asses that about myself either.

Lately, stuff is a mess for what I freely admit are Very Stupid Reasons; likely some mix of incompatibility and poor communication.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Another option is distributed living. Here people are getting into the idea of tiny house villages, which isn't prudent long-term because people need elbow room, but does give the idea if you just scale it up to saner sizing. If you get a good-sized patch of land outside the zoning stranglehold, then you can add cabins or earthlodges or whatever you like.

From: (Anonymous)

Well, if you've got a Big House to share for laundry, parties, etc, some tiny houses aren't too far off the size of a studio apartment, and I dont think that would be unreasonable for a single person. Especially if there were some outdoor offerings...

From:

ysabetwordsmith

A studio apartment isn't suited for long-term use either. It's fine for a young single person who doesn't have much stuff, but people tend to collect things, especially in this culture. Most want to get married and have kids, which requires more space. Just being able to store emergency supplies takes up space.

You can make some tradeoffs between private and public space, but only so much.

From: (Anonymous)

I currently don't have kids or a partner, and while I do have some stuff, I am kinda deeply suspicious about acquiring too much given how often my generation moves.

In fact I keep thinking I should winnow down, minimalist-style, but I actually like my stuff and getting it down to a nomadic-by-car level would involve giving up a lot.

Also, space requirements vary by culture. Americans trend towards more space, but folk who've lived in poverty or come from large families will need less.

Outside of America, there are places where it is perfectly normal for all 20+ relatives to sleep in the same room. (Or folks on the fronteir, 200 years back.)

Personally, right now I'd be happy with someplace where I could have a kitchen and bathroom, but if living by myself I wouldn't need much space. And the more rooms you add, the pricier it gets.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I currently don't have kids or a partner, and while I do have some stuff, I am kinda deeply suspicious about acquiring too much given how often my generation moves. <<

Sadly so, and all that moving is often not by choice, which causes a lot of problems.

>> In fact I keep thinking I should winnow down, minimalist-style, but I actually like my stuff and getting it down to a nomadic-by-car level would involve giving up a lot.<<

A lot of people have that problem.

>> Also, space requirements vary by culture. Americans trend towards more space, but folk who've lived in poverty or come from large families will need less.

Outside of America, there are places where it is perfectly normal for all 20+ relatives to sleep in the same room. (Or folks on the fronteir, 200 years back.) <<

There are different aspects to this.

One is physical. Each species has a territorial minimum, based on body size and diet. Now humans have managed to jigger this around a bit, by inventing privacy and civilization, so they could live closer without too much conflict. But it remains true that if you put humans in a room with a ceiling that's too low, it undermines mental health. A tipi isn't a problem because its center is much taller, most of the time you're in it you are sitting or lying down, and you spend more time outdoors. But a room with a flat ceiling quickly becomes an issue.

Another aspect is cultural. Those other cultures have had far fewer material demands on people. They also had far more group living skills. That made smaller spaces feasible. Here, there's almost nothing left of privacy and people are going to find out the hard way that you can't have civilization without it because humans are fucking aggravating.

Plus which, humans need nature or their mental health suffers. Now I've seen some lovely layouts for tiny house villages that would work fine to house individuals for short or maybe even medium-term stays, with the houses in clusters and a lot of greenspace and a common building. But I don't think that's what will pan out. I think they'll wind up like trailer courts, which everyone already knows are shitty, the units crammed close together and filled with mostly miserable people. And trailers are MUCH bigger than tiny houses, bigger than many apartments, but small enough to cause definite problems especially when crammed together.

In looking at tiny houses and microapartments, I think people are pushing the lower limit of what is safe and sane for humans more than briefly. It's okay for a short time, but it is not prudent for a long time. Those cramped conditions not only crush mental horizons, they also create a lot of extra work, and sometimes expense. A good example is the Murphy bed, popular in small apartments. It saves space ... if you have the energy to raise and lower it every day. If not, you leave it down all the time and a cramped space gets even tighter. Another is clothes; if you can't afford to store 4 seasons at home, you have give away or sell the off-season stuff and replace it, keeping only the most versatile items.

>>Personally, right now I'd be happy with someplace where I could have a kitchen and bathroom, but if living by myself I wouldn't need much space. And the more rooms you add, the pricier it gets.<<

Needs do vary. As long as someone is happy with their home, it's fine. What worries me is that, as usual, America makes decisions based on money rather than science or ethics. They're going to cram people into way too little space for too long and then get some sharp reminders why that is a bad idea. Why, in fact, there were laws passed to ban the kind of ant-farm tenements that wrecked several cities in various ways, from the Chicago Fire to New York's nearly-civil-war level of gang violence.

What can be done, what should be done, and what will be done are often quite different. I see people doing things that are very predictably going to cause problems, and that bothers me.

From: (Anonymous)

>>One is physical.<<

Huh, like fish. 1 gallon of water per inch of fish in the tank. I wonder what the rate of cubic feet to mass-of-human would be.

>>Here, there's almost nothing left of privacy...<<

Conversely, privacy doesn't solve everything. I've had people not want to deal with me in a bad mood...then complain I'm always hiding somewhere (because I'm upset and/or don't want to fight with folks). And our discussions about fixing things...don't really help.

>>I think they'll wind up like trailer courts, ...<<

So then we ask "What is the least bad alternative?"

...at least with a house you have access to a bed and toileting facilities.

>>As long as someone is happy with their home, it's fine.<<

Who knows? Maybe I'll be miserable living by myself in a tinier home. But if so, it will at least involve different problems.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Huh, like fish. 1 gallon of water per inch of fish in the tank. I wonder what the rate of cubic feet to mass-of-human would be. <<

For most fish, that formula works, but you need more water volume for messier ones like goldfish or cichlids.

With humans, the issue is less about messiness than having room to move around and do different things, so that part is closer to tank size. A good-sized room -- say, at least 12' x 12' x 9' -- is reasonable for medium-term use by one human, or two in a pinch. Cramming a dozen people into a room or cabin that size is doable but not advisable because it runs up stress, disease, and violence. Just like if you put too many fish in a tank, they start fin-nipping and such.

For mental health, it's better if a residence has divisions of space. A one-bedroom apartment is plenty for a single human or even a couple, provided they have other opportunities for activity and they don't have a job or hobby that requires a lot of storage space. If they have offspring, a second bedroom is preferable; if they have more than one sex/gender of offspring, then three bedrooms is better. If someone has a job/hobby that needs lots of stuff (e.g. books, craft supplies) or a home business, they probably need a room or garage for that.

Also, the more people living together, the more they need group space; a large household should have both a living room and a family room with noise separation, and that's where you start seeing specialized things like a craft room, library, rec room, exercise room, etc. To some extent, group facilities can make up for this -- a common gym is bigger than a home gym -- but you have to remember that's a privilege, not a right, and not necessarily available. Only the stuff you own or rent personally counts as "yours" that people can't shut you out of on whim, and that you can reach in inclement weather.

>> Conversely, privacy doesn't solve everything. I've had people not want to deal with me in a bad mood...then complain I'm always hiding somewhere (because I'm upset and/or don't want to fight with folks). And our discussions about fixing things...don't really help. <<

Privacy doesn't solve everything, but it is critical to civilization. Lack of privacy kills even animals; any zookeeper can tell you this, it's why every enclosure has hideaways even though those annoy the viewers. Also lack of privacy induces humans to kill each other, because then they find out who's fucking their wife or they get fed up with snoring or whatever.

I've had similar issues, but as far as I'm concerned, my responsibility is to go out only when I am reasonably civil, not to be other people's party toy. People don't get to bitch about me avoiding them if they also bitch about my behavior when I am with them.

The people who are unhappy with you? Watch how they treat each other and how they behave individually. Took me a while to notice, because everyone complained about similar things with me so I thought they had grounds, but it turns out most people aren't actually very nice or socially ept. They're just into dominance games. If they are genuinely nice to each other, they may be worth emulating. If not, fuck 'em, do what makes you happy and comfortable.

>> So then we ask "What is the least bad alternative?"

...at least with a house you have access to a bed and toileting facilities. <<

Least bad alternative in what range? America doesn't have a shortage of resources; it has more than enough housing for everyone. It has a shortage of compassion and would prefer to let people freeze to death under bridges while buildings stand empty. I have no sympathy for this. If people are crammed into tiny houses or microapartments, the problem is less visible than if others are tripping over them on sidewalks.

Is it better? I'd leave that to individuals to decide. Likely some of them would take a home of any size over a bridge, but definitely not all of them, because many homeless people are homeless because they don't find the strings attached to society bearable. Plenty prefer the freedom to come and go as they please to being locked in at night and having their bodies violated in a shelter.

I'm very much a fan of housing-first ventures, but I think it should be standard housing, not stuff built to much lower qualifications. One of the best approaches I've seen is for a town to buy houses scattered all over, where they can put 4-5 people, rather than trying to zone for a 200-head homeless shelter that literally nobody wants in their neighborhood.

>>Who knows? Maybe I'll be miserable living by myself in a tinier home. But if so, it will at least involve different problems.<<

:D Now that is an awesome approach. Make exciting new mistakes! Hey, it's how we run our relationship, and it's lasted a couple decades.

I could certainly see preferring a smaller solitary home to a larger crowded one.

Of course, the design matters a lot too. I've seen tiny houses that were horrid little shoeboxes, and some that were big enough for 2-3 sleeping areas especially if they had an upstairs. Compare:

This one has two levels and multiple options for customization. At a squeeze you could fit 4 people in here; it has options for a queen loft, a twin or bunk bed, and an office/bedroom. It has divisions so people could split up. Not spacious, but not unbearably cramped.

This is all one space except the tiny 3/4 bath. There are no divisions for audio or visual privacy, unless you take up some of the scarce space by using bookcases to make partial walls. That's not great even for one person, let alone more. If you have guests, do you want them in what amounts to you bedroom? Most people wouldn't.

You can do a lot more with the divided space, just because it has multiple rooms, than with one big room.

From: (Anonymous)

So it sounds like if height of person is h:

2h^2

Adding multiple people (p), we get:

2hp^2

Adding in cubic space (9ft ceilings):

(2hp^2)9

I think... I'm not perfect with math, and Algebra has been awhile...

But square footage = persons height, doubled than squared sems consistant. (So I'd need, what, a minimum of 11-12ft^2, I guess.)

>>For mental health, it's better if a residence has divisions of space.<<

I once was invited to visit someone who juryrigged around this by hanging bedsheets from the ceiling, to subdivide the house.

>>They're just into dominance games. If they are genuinely nice to each other, they may be worth emulating. If not, fuck 'em, do what makes you happy and comfortable.<<

I think there are gender and age demographics in play.

One tries to advise me...but doesn't seem to get what I am upset about a lot.

Also, given our respective genders, my lower willingness/ability to do emotional labor and their lack of skill in it may be an issue.

The other person and I have difficultly-compatible personalities to begin with, and then she decided to bond with me in the one area I'd said Absolutely Not to.

And then it's my fault for flying of the handle, and I have the feeling she'd flip out if I did the exact same thing to her. Which I haven't because manners. (Barring safety issues.)

So now theres issues around that, and people complain about the issues. And then aren't helpful if I try to fix them. ("Don't do [baby step that inconveniences me] do [bigger step that fizzled the last time you tried.]")

Yeah, I know the situation isn't great.

>>Least bad alternative in what range?<<

I've done volunteering that essentially amounts to 'unpaid teacher/social worker.'

Between that and [waves hands] everything, I'm basically mentally in emergency triage mode.

Fix this, next thing. Do this, next thing. Hallelujah, someone had a clue and provided quality resources for the thing, so I can scrap my half-assed juryrigging. Next thing...

I can't fix America as a whole. I can't even fix my own life as a whole. But I can try to do one thing at a time and hand of what I can't deal with [lack of spoons or resources] to folks who can.

>>...because many homeless people are homeless because they don't find the strings attached to society bearable.<<

Some parts of society are...annoying.

>>:D Now that is an awesome approach. Make exciting new mistakes! Hey, it's how we run our relationship, and it's lasted a couple decades.<<

Congratulations to you!

Thanks for the approval.

At least one of my current issues likely won't be fixed unless I leave, and leaving it unfixed would be bad.

Of course the what-might-have-beens are disappointing, but no point inviting your ghosts in for tea, so to speak.

>>If you have guests, do you want them in what amounts to you bedroom? Most people wouldn't.<<

Of course this assumes you will /have/ guests. Some people like entertaining out, and some just hate people.

From:

fianna9

If you want geologically stable there are areas in the Dakotas especially around Mount Rushmore that are expected to be around/stable for a long time. There was a program on History Channel: Aftermath: Population Zero that talked about what areas and objects will last.

From: (Anonymous)

If moving there, I'd suggest being friendly to the local First Nations folks...

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Absolutely. That greatly reduces the chance of getting flattened.

Have you ever noticed that hardcore bikers have a medicine pouch on their handlebars? That is why. So they can go places like Sturgis and Bear Butte without having their bike fall apart. And they all tell stories about people who didn't do that, and wound up carrying their bike.

From: (Anonymous)

Oh, the badasses I hang out with aren't /bikers/.

I'm thinking like a woman-socialized person who has traveled and is friends with travelers (for both recreation and survival).

So I'm thinking in terms of local knowledge of resources and threats, tapping into social networks and alliances, possible sharing of intelligence/resources, and the fact that being nice/kind/polite will often open doors (especially when everyone else is a horse's ass) combined with /the full awareness that you are not a hero just for being kind/.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

That makes sense.

Though I suspect the world has been saved more often with kindness than with violence. It's just less conspicuous, so most people don't notice.

From: (Anonymous)

I have actually thought it might be interesting to list all the films where someone saves the world with a tiny overlooked kindness.

(You adopt a foundling, vouch for one of your best friends, try to offer advice to an ancestral enemy, let a family with small kids shelter during a disaster, shoot as a warning not an execution, look at someone and see their personhood...) And all of these are from actual movies I've seen.

I think there are some lists of stories from real life too. How many people are saved by passerby, or firemen, or tow truck drivers, or teachers, or their friends' parents, or the kid who asked for two lunches to feed a friend...?

Heck, they only started teaching CPR to us civvies after paramedics kept noticing folks trying CPR they'd learned from tv.

And while I don't know if you've saved anyone's life (though I think it is a strong possiblity) I've learned a bunch from reading your works, and been able to pass along useful resources and information to other people. So you're a hero and role model too.

From:

fianna9

Definitely. Anyone who knows the area and the local food supply should automatically be respected.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>>If you want geologically stable there are areas in the Dakotas especially around Mount Rushmore that are expected to be around/stable for a long time. <<

Plausible. While drought may be a concern, that area is far enough north that it won't overheat soon. However, the land is touchy as fuck, and if you annoy the Black Hills in particular, they may decide to beat you black and blue or throw your bike down the mountain.

>>There was a program on History Channel: Aftermath: Population Zero that talked about what areas and objects will last.<<

Excellent show. Life After People is another good one, and I am especially intrigued by the divergences between the two.

From:

fianna9

Both programs are interesting looking at possible futures.

Another area to look at is along the Appalachian Mountains in its entirety. Those mountains are old and fairly stable, and there are a variety of terrains with different water and soil compositions. There are people there who are also fairly adept at surviving so you can pick up tricks from them.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Another area to look at is along the Appalachian Mountains in its entirety. Those mountains are old and fairly stable, and there are a variety of terrains with different water and soil compositions.<<

Some of it's good terrain, especially if you like forests. However, much has been poisoned by mining, and not just one valley, but everything downstream of that -- really bad shit like lead and other heavy metals. O_O

>> There are people there who are also fairly adept at surviving so you can pick up tricks from them.<<

Who also barely talk to you until you have ancestors buried in the local cemetery.

Another problem, serious for most people, is that much of Appalachia has extreme poverty. It's the one place full of white people that can give the reservations a run for bottom place. There are literally whole counties with NO jobs in them. While there are now plenty of nonlocalized jobs, many of those still rely on infrastructure, and Appalachia is very low on that in many places.

That said, consider identifying tourist areas, which have excellent resources -- and then scout the small towns nearby.

From:

fianna9

I have relatives from the area so I fit in with my "my Grandmother was a Call so I'm your fourth cousin twice removed" so that part was already covered. If things are get that bad bringing in some skills you can swap with them can help bridge that gap.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I have relatives from the area so I fit in with my "my Grandmother was a Call so I'm your fourth cousin twice removed" so that part was already covered.<<

Then you are well set!

>> If things are get that bad bringing in some skills you can swap with them can help bridge that gap. <<

True. Or money, in Appalachia -- anything in short supply has high value.

If you own even the tiniest business employing more than yourself, or you're a reliable source of oddjobs, people will actively protect you. They can't afford to lose any, because there's no fault tolerance in the job market except in a few places.

Edited Date: 2021-05-01 02:26 am (UTC)

From:

fianna9

Also keep in mind when I say to check out the Appalachian mountains in its entirety as fairly solid ground I'm not just talking about the Virgina/West Virginia/Tennessee/Kentucky area most people think about. The Appalachian Mountains run from the Deep South up to New England. They frame the Adirondacks to the East and South. For instance the Appalachian Trail runs from Georgia to Maine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Trail. That's a lot of territory where you can hopefully find a climate and people you are comfortable with.

My family on one side is Virgina/West Virginia/coal country born and bred; where people moved in and rarely ever leave. If you've ever watched the tv show Justified they do a decent job displaying that area; my mother thought it was fairly accurate.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Here is a poverty map of America. Just try to avoid the worst areas.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2018/comm/acs-5yr-poverty-rate-all-counties.jpg

From:

fianna9

You can tag entire areas of the country as rural/reservations just looking at that map without even knowing for certain where the physical borders are. You can also easily find the areas no one lives in in the Great PLains.

The northern part of Western Virginia (not West Virginia) isn't a bad place for many people to look although it's been growing like crazy with people moving out of D.C. and the suburbs there. Lot of small towns and small farm areas. Pennsylvania also has those small farm areas especially if you can find something nearby to the Amish and Mennonites.

A big thing to check out is the zoning laws and building permits where you're looking to move. When my family first moved to a rural Illinois county my father was shocked that the only thing inspected in construction was plumbing. Not electrical.

Finding an area zoned for livestock makes having chickens, goats, bees, etc. much easier to maintain without as much hassle. You can trade the eggs, meat, wool, honey and milk to others for supplies and items you can't produce on your own. Having these things established before everything goes bottoms up means you've worked out the bugs while you can get outside support.

Edited Date: 2021-05-01 03:34 am (UTC)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

All excellent plans.

Want to spot prisons? Use the racial dotmap and just look for tight clusters of black people in the middle of nowhere.

From: (Anonymous)

Also (and I /NEVER/ hear anyone discuss this): be sure to plan for population demographics.

If I need to flee, say, NYC by myself, I can go pretty much anywhere, including Appalchia, though I'll want to be careful on dark rods and in bars. And I could hole up in a rural area, if I had a local connection, i.e. church, friends, relatives. (I am a pretty white woman.)

If I'm traveling with nonwhite American friends, I'll have to rely on their threat assessments, but I can pretty sure cross off jaunting through Appalachia and some of the more rural South. Suburbs or cities would be safer, but also might have more damage depending on the exact disaster. Our end destination would likely be a larger town or city.

If I'm travelling with nonwhite immigrants, then I say several swearwords and try to figure out what is least dangerous, while running threat assessments I haven't lived. Still likely travel via more populous areas, and end destination with almost certainty would have to be a large city (b/c language limitations and/or less common religious preferences of my traveling companions.) Hopefully some of the people will have American-less-common skills like MacGyvering...

Related: networks. Ask about kin networks, look up local church-or-equivalent of any religion you've got in the group, ask if anyone has a local friend who might have advice or a couch or whatever.

And when you pick your 'face person' and 'requisitioning supplies people' try to choose people who will blend in, get along with locals and not get shot or assaulted for existing in a public place.

...yeah, sometimes you'll need to take the path of least risk, which is still too dangerous for me to be happy about.

From:

erulisse

When we were making the decision to relocate we looked at a few things:

- what is the general risk of flooding and is that likely to change as the climate shifts?
- is there access to a reasonably robust food supply?
- what kind of job market is there?
- what is the cost of living like? if it's higher, are there public services and/or a safety net that offset that somewhat?
- what is the climate like? what do projections say the climate will be like in thirty years?
- what is the risk of other disasters?

Where we ended up is a small town in upstate New York about an hour north of Albany city center. It is a little past the edge of anything that could be considered urban/suburban sprawl but comfortable commuting distance to some of the nearer suburbs, which is where I am currently working. This also means that we have good access to most city amenities within an hour drive but we also live close to a number of working farms and orchards and the local food situation is quite robust. The next town over has an independent butcher and grocery that sells all kinds of local products and that is where we do a significant amount of our shopping (including awesome local milk in returnable glass bottles!) but another couple miles down the road are big box groceries for everything else. There is some risk of flood here because the town we are in is on the the Hudson River but we are also upstream far enough that the risk is relatively limited (and certainly significantly less than what we were facing in Houston!) There is snow here and occasionally it dumps a significant amount (we had a storm the second week of December where we got thirty inches in eight hours) but overall we feel we found a good balance between risks and benefits. It's definitely a good bit better than what we left in Texas in many ways. (There are still bugs other than mosquitoes here, which our neighborhood in Houston had lost most of due to proximity to the ship channel).

From:

ysabetwordsmith

There are various maps that find your city's "climate twin" for some date in the future.

http://googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/2019/07/your-2050-climate-twin.html

Other resources suggest cities to avoid due to extreme changes.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2020/01/climate-change-the-cities-you-won-t-want-to-live-in-by-2040.html

From:

siberian_skys

Up state NY sounds beautiful. I can't imagine Houston. I found the highways intimidating when we were there on a bus trip not to mention the power grid problems and hurricanes. Your list is very helpful. I'm going to need to go back to work, so the job market is something I need to take into account. I don't think I'm going to be able to flee this before this hurricane season peaks, but hopefully this will be my last one.

From:

erulisse

We are really liking it so far.

Houston had its compensations - the neighborhood we were in was pretty walkable and had a lot of good independent restaurants and things as well as a board game café two blocks from our house. It also has an amazing symphony and opera and a lot of other cool big city stuff. I don't regret the time we spent there but I don't miss Houston traffic or hurricane season and I'm glad we were able to leave when we did.

From:

siberian_skys

I'm glad you're liking it so far. I've had a lot of change lately, which of course, is stressful. It's nice to hear that people are having positive change in their lives.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Moving out of state is better done with time to plan ahead. Some resources:

https://www.getbellhops.com/blog/move-to-another-state/

https://www.movebuddha.com/blog/moving-out-of-state-ultimate-guide/

https://www.moving.com/tips/your-checklist-for-moving-to-another-state/

https://www.lifestorage.com/blog/moving/how-to-move-to-a-different-state/

https://moneywise.com/life/lifestyle/americans-abandon-states

https://www.movebuddha.com/blog/get-paid-to-move/

https://withoutboxes.com/start-over/

From:

siberian_skys

I bookmarked these, thank you. I hate moving. These look very helpful.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

I'm happy I could help.

Moving is easier if you have time to plan ahead and do it in stages, and if you have friends to help. When you get to the moving stage, let us know. Some folks might be in a position to help, even if it's just sending you gift cards for newly-local restaurants or superstores instead of showing up with a welcome box.

From:

siberian_skys

Thank you. :-)

I'm starting to think I need to get out of here sooner rather than later. Our fool of a governor just signed an executive order that's going to endanger more people, because he doesn't seem to understand how the vaccine works. I was beginning to feel like I could get out a tiny bit more, but not now. I'm so glad that I got a haircut and my toes done today. This is only the third professional haircut that I got in the last year plus. And I hadn't got my toes done for well over a year. This is stupid even for the fool in the governor's mansion. I wish more people had the brains of the San Francisco community. Definitely can't live there, but they've got 70% of their population vaccinated. That's pretty close to herd immunity. We're not even close to that here. And now he's telling people just go out and trust the vaccine even though we don't have near enough people vaccinated. It's crazy.

From: (Anonymous)

I think if I remember my history and demographics right, a significant chunk of the older folks in San Fransisco remembers the last Great Drama of the '80s. And a lot of the younger folk are very science-minded...

From:

siberian_skys

That's what I remember about SF and the 80s.

The Writing & Other Projects of Elizabeth Barrette

Links

Page Summary

Active Entries

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags