The Wordsmith&#39;s Forge

Both points are valid. Fridging is sexist, and often unsatisfying.

In a poem, short story, or other concise venue there may be little time to establish the bit characters before they die. But in a novel, movie, TV series, etc. there is a lot more room. Similarly there are stylized modes of storytelling and more nuanced ones; some people prefer one or the other, some both. It is prudent to think about what you're doing and which techniques best serve the story.

I think it's true that fridging is often just plain lazy.

Developing characters in a little more depth will make their death more meaningful -- and usually more precise in its nature, followed by its effect on the protagonist. The type of relationship matters, the role that person had in their life. It's like watching a load-bearing wall crumble; you have to make the audience feel that weight coming down. Somehow.

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peoriapeoriawhereart

Characters readers don't care about, aren't as meaningful to kill. Have you read Supergods? It struck me that there was a problem of escalation, that the comic books to 'be serious' kept increasing body counts and atrocities. I'd known of Sue Dibney's fate, but not the full details.
Stacked like cordwood, fail on fail, and not a sign of...

Dorothy Sayers said that the detective novel is a moral medium, that it starts with an outrage to society and over the course of the story the ferreting out promises that justice will occur. This may be contrary to legal practice.

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>> Characters readers don't care about, aren't as meaningful to kill. <<

Yes, that's true.

One challenge is to create meaning in characters very quickly, without letting them overshadow the main action. Best example I can think of is a human sacrifice in Black Dogs: The House of Diamond, who was so full of spit and vinegar that I loved her immediately. She didn't last a page. I still remember her. Now that is writing.

>> Have you read Supergods? <<

I don't think so.

>> It struck me that there was a problem of escalation, that the comic books to 'be serious' kept increasing body counts and atrocities. <<

Yes, exactly.

This reprises a previous issue in pulp and movie entertainment where the villain would put the hero or heroine in dire peril, only to have them rescued at the last minute. The death traps kept getting more elaborate because that was the only way to raise the tension.

Then somebody had the villain touch a lit cigarette to the heroine's skin. People freaked, because suddenly: credible threat. Here was a villain willing to do real, immediate harm. It mattered again.

Now we're seeing the same cycle with death, so many bodies stacked up that they cease to matter as individuals. The audience had become innured to violence. They've stopped responding. The entire planet of Vulcan went down with scarcely a bubble, except for a few protests from old-guard fen.

How to fix it? Turn the intensity down, not up; and switch modes. For me the iconic example of this is "Superman: Grounded." Physical invulnerability does not convey emotional resilience. This is what I think of as "my" Superman: someone motivated by compassion, not power.

And then you get whole new stories.

>> I'd known of Sue Dibney's fate, but not the full details.
Stacked like cordwood, fail on fail, and not a sign of... <<

*sigh* *yawn* *change channel*

>> Dorothy Sayers said that the detective novel is a moral medium, that it starts with an outrage to society and over the course of the story the ferreting out promises that justice will occur. <<

Yes. There is always some kind of inherent contract with the reader to provide entertainment and gratification. Different genres make different kinds of promises. Romance started out guaranteeing a happy ending, and has since diversified into love stories where people at least try to work out their relationships. The slim chance of failure maintains an element of tension that makes the successful ones more satisfying.

Me, I became an ex-Babylon 5 fan when I realized that Bester was going to keep getting away with all the awful shit he did. The producer declined to meet my need to see the bad guy's guts splattered all over a wall; and I declined to keep supporting the franchise. If I wanted to see evil get off scot-free, I'd watch the fucking news.

That experience taught me a lot about audience needs and expectations, and the vitality of that entertainment contract.

>>This may be contrary to legal practice.<<

Sadly so. But perhaps it allows us to imagine how the world would look with more justice in it, so that we may work in that direction.

This is why I write things like sense of wonder and wide diversity. I figure if I give folks some examples, they may be inspired to try out the possibilities for themselves.

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peoriapeoriawhereart

Arthur Conan Doyle notably allowed an abused wife survive her husband in one of the Sherlock Holmes stories.

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shadynaiad

Stuffing the dryer is entertaining in the same situations stuffing the fridge is - sometimes you can overlook a meaningless death if it suits the story. I'm trying to think of a good example, though, and I just can't-except in situations where the point is that the death is meaningless, which is another trope altogether.

I just read a YA book (Matched) in which neither of the male love interests were fleshed out enough for me to figure out why the heroine wanted either one of them, aside from plot contrivance. It was mostly a problem of telling, not showing, and of putting the backstory way too late in the book.

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>> Stuffing the dryer is entertaining in the same situations stuffing the fridge is - sometimes you can overlook a meaningless death if it suits the story. <<

Often true. The male version also has the advantage of not hammering an already overused oppression.

>> I'm trying to think of a good example, though, and I just can't-except in situations where the point is that the death is meaningless, which is another trope altogether. <<

For me it depends on the focus of the story. Sometimes the death happens at the very beginning, and it's really just intended to boot the protagonist into action. Detailed development is not always necessary for that, and sometimes distracting. In my ballad "Salt from a Dead Woman's Table," the hera's family is murdered right at the beginning, and there's really not much detail beyond the fact that they're her family and she obviously loves them because she flips out and goes on a rampage of doom. In a poem or short story, there's not a lot of room for elaboration.

In a novel or a movie, there is more space, such that the particular type of relationship and/or circumstances of death influence the impact on the protagonist. Consider the death of Uncle Ben in Spiderman where Peter is already living with a surrogate family having lost his parents, so that losing his uncle is even more jarring to his stability; and worse because Peter's indifference to the crook facilitated that death. Just a few thoughtful strokes developed it a lot more.

>> I just read a YA book (Matched) in which neither of the male love interests were fleshed out enough for me to figure out why the heroine wanted either one of them, aside from plot contrivance. It was mostly a problem of telling, not showing, and of putting the backstory way too late in the book. <<

Yeah, that happens a lot for me -- or worse, the guys are obviously dicks but the woman dithers over which one to choose anyway. That's becoming a serious problem in urban fantasy today. It's one reason why I write P.I.E. with a couple of jerks who have unrequited interest in Brenda, while she's more intrigued by the nice guy, Darrel. Most of the time when I do romance in my writing, it has a slow build like this so that people can see what is appealing to the characters as they spiral inward.

Other times I start with an established relationship, but try to clue their interdependence with story-relevant actions. There's a good example of that in "Times of Hardship and Ease" where Zasha and Taylor are navigating challenges to their relationship that are typical risks within their lifestyle.

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shadynaiad

In a poem or short story, there's not a lot of room for elaboration.
That's the sort of thing I'm thinking of, or novels based in those sort of ballad-y fairy tale sort of settings. You pretty much know who's doomed in that sort of thing anyway.

I almost feel like Uncle Ben falls into the same sort of thing-Spiderman is such modern mythology that we know he's doomed. I don't know if he was fleshed out in the original comics or not, but it almost doesn't matter. (See also every other superhero's parents, poor things.)

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>> That's the sort of thing I'm thinking of, or novels based in those sort of ballad-y fairy tale sort of settings. You pretty much know who's doomed in that sort of thing anyway. <<

Yes. Some are more stylized, while others are more innovative and nuanced. I like both kinds, when they're well done.

>> I almost feel like Uncle Ben falls into the same sort of thing-Spiderman is such modern mythology that we know he's doomed. I don't know if he was fleshed out in the original comics or not, but it almost doesn't matter. <<

Point.

>> (See also every other superhero's parents, poor things.) <<

That's a trait they share with most mythic and legendary heroes, actually; a point of evidence connecting the sets.

Over in Polychrome Heroics, I explore various scenarios:

Damask has a whole extended family, which is damned awkward going home for the holidays after such major changes as becoming a plural person and a superhero. It's rare for a superhero to have family to interact with, so it opens up a lot of new storylines.

Alicia's original family sells her into weird science experiments that give her superpowers, and later she builds a new family of choice. People disagree over whether she is a superhero or a supervillain.

Joshua is taken out of an abusive family and put into foster care where even worse things happen. He turns into a superhero anyway -- but he does it through intensive training, like Batman, rather than actual powers.

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brushwolf

Meaningless deaths that fit the story;

Star Wars. Luke loses his aunt and uncle, but that's a plot point to get him off planet. Leia loses not just her folks, but her childhood home and pretty much everyone she knows, and it's a plot point that the Death Star is badass and if it gets anywhere near Yavin IV that's it for the Rebellion. And it works because ANH is this fluffy pulpy movie about swapping blaster fire with stormtroopers and giant orbital death-machines. It's not like Empire Strikes Back where all of the loss is serious business.

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That's a wonderful look at a major point of contrast between the two films.

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stardreamer

Jenny Calendar in BTVS is an excellent example of doing fridging right. She's built up as a character the audience cares about, and then WHAM.

From: (Anonymous)

I wonder... there's a book on writing I skimmed and have heard referenced in other medians. "A hero with a hundred faces" I think that's what it's called. Regardless it serves as a discussion of how story structure traditionally works in a heroic tale.

Part of that structure is "the call" and the "rejection of the call" where the hero/protagonist is informed/discovers they are meant for greater things and reject it for the security of the normal world, where upon they get a plot related wake up call, usually a tragedy of some sort.

Since killing off a venerable person close to the hero literally changes everything for that person, and women tend to be easier to kill than men, I almost wonder if "stuffing the fridge" isn't a off shoot or corruption of the traditional plot kick off.

I'll admit it's cheep, and I tend to disregard it as a back story prop when I can. If it's a canon established back story for a fanfiction I'll grudgingly use the device... but I'll put it off, build up the relationship, the characters, before the offing has to be so that way if it does change the character/kick off the story it's bloody /justified/ and the victim is recalled by the surviving characters and not just a forgotten note.

I actually sculpted a stuff in the fridge set up and adverted it in a fanfiction once.

Genis Sage, who accidentally sets off a chain of events that kills someone he's fond of. He gets little in story screen time with this person, but little mentions get put up. He's changed a recipe of his to match hers, he makes little comments about missing someone, and is subdued in the beginning of the fic when he's established to be quite bubbly. Then he meets up with the extended family of his victim and everything he's been holding in just comes out and it impacts not only him, that family, but leads to a bigger chain of events that further separate him from who he once was.

She's his ghost, a tolerable one, and he grows from it instead of being warped.

Other characters in that series (really the game deals so much with grief and the aftermath when the characters are powerful and shattered and lose someone) don't recover so well, or are so warped by their loss they become unrecognizable or inhumane. Symphonia, the game Genis is from, is a rather nasty deconstruction of the whole "fridge" idea once ones looked at it after completion.

I've honestly not encountered a stronger case against casually killing off characters for back story or other reasons than that game. So many other medians treat death as drama points the more a character suffers, or losses loved ones, or has to kill, or watch others be killed the better the work supposedly gets.

This is definitely not a view I share as a writer but it's one I see far too much both as a reader and a writer.

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>> Part of that structure is "the call" and the "rejection of the call" where the hero/protagonist is informed/discovers they are meant for greater things and reject it for the security of the normal world, where upon they get a plot related wake up call, usually a tragedy of some sort. <<

There are actually different options: the person can accept the call immediately, refuse it but accept later, refuse it and get dragged through the whole story, or refuse it and pursue a different story. A majority of stories are refusal/acceptance, with some immediate acceptances and some refusal/drags.

Actually allowing the character enough intelligence and agency to stay the hell out of somebody else's stupid fight is rare. The problem with any kind of refusal/force is that it establishes a pattern of railroading the characters. This does not make for the best storytelling.

>> Since killing off a venerable person close to the hero literally changes everything for that person, and women tend to be easier to kill than men, I almost wonder if "stuffing the fridge" isn't a off shoot or corruption of the traditional plot kick off. <<

It's probably related. And they both tend to be lazy plot devices. What, you couldn't come up with a better motivation than that? Pff.

>> I'll admit it's cheep, and I tend to disregard it as a back story prop when I can. <<

Good for you.

>> If it's a canon established back story for a fanfiction I'll grudgingly use the device... <<

I actively resent fridging and will edit it out of things.

>> She's his ghost, a tolerable one, and he grows from it instead of being warped. <<

Cool.

>> So many other medians treat death as drama points the more a character suffers, or losses loved ones, or has to kill, or watch others be killed the better the work supposedly gets. <<

Pointless deaths bore me. Undeveloped or unmotivated characters bore me. I got bored with the Game of Thrones books for those reasons. Can we just freeze the planet solid and be done with it? I have laundry to do.

From: (Anonymous)

laughs.

Thanks for that.

I've found no one else who shares my opinion of the Throne franchise.

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*hugs*

I was also bored with The Mists of Avalon, which Pagans in general and Pagan women in particular are supposed to love. However, the television adaptation was lovely.

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siliconshaman.livejournal.com

Just once, I'd like to see the Male Hero get motivated by having the Inspiring Female give him a verbal kick in the pants! You know, like real life.

Mind you, that's also why I like the film MegaMind... tropes get twisted right out of shape!

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I may have done that before, but I can't put my finger on an example quickly. My audience seems to favor heras over heroes (which is fine by me). Feel free to prompt for this if you wish.

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siliconshaman.livejournal.com

Well, that would fit with the upcoming 'Dragons' theme... kinda... [assuming I remeber].

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westrider.livejournal.com

Buffy did that at least once off the top of my head, and I think probably at least a few more times that aren't coming to mind right now.

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She booted Angel clear to his own show, heh.

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zeeth_kyrah

Y'know, this trope was a cherry topper for Star Fox in the game that introduced Krystal to the franchise. You start off playing her, but then she gets captured. Star Fox shows up answering a distress call, discovers her, and she gets to be the prize handed out for completing all the puzzles in the game.

Which is nice and all, but I wanted to play her for most of the game. Star Fox and his arwing was an excuse to fly through a few challenge courses and fight his archenemy in yet another tedious space battle, which is awesome and the basis of the franchise (aside from the tedious boss battle I think I never managed to finish), but... eh.

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Way to kill player interest. It is usually a bad idea to get people invested in a character and then yank that character out from under them. For disposable characters, you want people to care, but not get jarred out of the storyline by the fall. Tricky balance there.

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All the dimensions and values of sexuality, romance, et sim.* that you use in your stories, and you're only talking about Man/Woman and Woman/Man? Let's see now...

t.-f. in appliance		trope-filler
t.-f. in appliance		♀	♂
protagonist	♀
protagonist	♂

Well, that'll do for a start. I enjoy hand-coding the HTML, yesIdo, but you just take that and run with it as far as you like, okay?

* Translation: either tl;dw or I don't remember and I'm too tired/lazy to go look them all up, take your pick.

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I get a kick out of the man-in-dryer version, specifically as a reversal of the patriarchal woman-in-fridge. M/M or F/F versions I've seen only occasionally, and I think most of those were crazy-lesbian stories (which I do not write).

I have 8 sex/gender roles in one desert, plus some others elsewhere. And those 8 in the Whispering Sands actually have some of their own tropes, like: you do not molest a Tazha nurturer, or a Tazha provider will hunt you down and drag you back for the nurturers to dismember at their leisure. Bandit men may not fear a clean death in combat, but that deterrent makes assault on nurturers pretty rare.

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Ah, good, you're already on it. :-)

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Yeah, gender issues have always interested me. It's a pattern I watch for in other cultures. I love the Tazha because, when their tribe first formed, they dumped out the entire gender system, broke it down into component parts, and then built something they all thought sounded appealing to them. It's weird, but it works for them.

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Wow. Only in fiction, I'm afraid, but I love the idea.

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Well, mostly in fiction.

There are plenty of individuals who have constructed their own gender identity. There are even subcultures that have done it -- the butch/femme lesbians, for instance, particularly the stone butches. It's interesting to see how constructions of sexual orientation and gender identity have changed over time. But when people are shut out of a mainstream and not offered another viable option, some of them will make up something.

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Ah, OK. I was thinking of not an individual but an entire tribe doing it. But of course a subculture that is socially isolated within the dominant society is very similar in concept.

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That basically is how the Tazha started. They and Waterjewel both descend from a band of renegades, the Daughters of the Wind: women who walked away from, or were thrown away by, various aspects of the mainstream culture. Some people decided they wanted to be a real tribe, and settled out -- twice.

Culture is a negotiated thing, which can continue itself, shared among a group of people. But many of its aspects start with a single person thinking up something that other people later agree to go along with. Put together people with similar concerns and they tend to develop a subculture. Sometimes it spins off into a whole separate culture, if there's room do that.

In our world, consider the influence of gender-variant people. We're starting to see more representation on official forms that there are other options beyond "male" and "female." What begins with individuals can join together, grow stronger, and gain influence.

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Yes, though I fear that this official recognition may end up as just a temporary bump – while hoping it will endure.

I don't know the Tazha at all. Whispering Sands is a 'verse of yours?

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This is from my main fantasy world, Hallelaine. On the southern continent is the Whispering Sands desert. The Tazha are one tribe; I haven't written about them very often. Waterjewel is another, far more documented. There are also a whole bunch of bandit tribes, and decadent civilization mostly along the coast.

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Thanks. Does Hallelaine have a landing page? I'm trying to stay off blogs for the rest of the evening, or I'd look for it myself.

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Sorry, no landing page.

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fayanora.livejournal.com

Or mock the trope, have like an ice elf or somesuch sleeping in a fridge, hero thinks she's dead but then she gets out and yawns, then freaks out to see a strange person in her house.

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So. Much. Win.

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fayanora.livejournal.com

Gods, now I have to do it.

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