ysabetwordsmith | Poem: "Not a Destination, But a Process"

This poem is spillover from the March 5, 2024 Poetry Fishbowl. It was inspired by prompts from

chanter1944. It also fills the "Day Job" square in my 3-1-24 card for the National Crafting Month Bingo fest. This poem has been sponsored by a pool with

fuzzyred. It belongs to the Shiv thread of the Polychrome Heroics series. It follows "Conscious of the Injustice" so read that first or this won't make much sense.

"Not a Destination, But a Process"

Liberty could hardly
believe her luck.

She had just gotten
into Omaha when she
met someone who had
helped her get a day job.

Shiv was a little weird,
sure, but he was solid --
and he didn't try to grab
her anywhere rude, so
that was even better.

Liberty was starting off as
an all-purpose cleaning girl,
since she already knew how
to mop and wash dishes.

That'd earn minimum wage,
which was enough to afford
a decent apartment, if she
could get some fake ID.

Meanwhile, Liberty was
set to couchsurf with
one of the waitresses.

She wouldn't be stuck with
cleanup work forever, though,
not if she wanted to learn more.

Cook had offered to teach her
actual cooking skills -- not just
recipes, but things like how
to use a knife so the slices
came out all the same size.

Liberty had pounced on that,
because job skills were valuable.

Right now, Shiv was showing her
how to fold napkins for the tables.

He had a binder with pictures of
the finished folds and lists of steps.

"See, napkins are cheap, and it don't
cost anything to fold 'em fancy, but it
makes the place look nicer," Shiv said.
"So we got the easy ones for every day,
the fancy ones for stuff like weddings,
and then all of the holiday styles."

"Bunny ears," Liberty said,
tracing the shape on the page.

"Yeah, them's for Easter,"
Shiv said. "We got flowers
too, and watermelon for
Juneteenth, a turkey for
Thanksgiving, and so on."

Liberty had to admit that they
looked cute, even if she wasn't
sure that she could fold them.

Then Shiv's head popped up,
and Liberty heard footsteps.

Coming toward them was
was a mousy-looking white guy
dressed in a woman's sweater
embroidered with sunflowers
and poppies, daisies and yarrow.

It even had a bunch of pudgy bees,
their tiny wings done in some sort
of shimmery thread that made it
look like they could really fly.

It was the silliest thing that
Liberty had ever seen, but
she wanted to touch it anyway.

Shiv bounded over and rubbed
himself along it like a big ol' cat.
"Hey, Dr. G," he said, grinning.

"Hello, Shiv," said Dr. G.
"Boss White thought that
someone here could use
a sympathetic ear."

"Ah yeah, Liberty's had
a bit of a hard time just
getting here," Shiv said.
"You want some space?"

"That would be nice, if
Liberty feels comfortable
with me," said Dr. G.

"It's a public place,"
Liberty said, shrugging.
"Sit down if you'd like."

"Thank you for the invitation,"
Dr. G said, and sat down at
the booth where they'd been
practicing the napkin folds.

"I'll go help Cook," Shiv said,
and skittered off to the kitchen.

"Boss White mentioned that
you've got your head in a bit
of a tangle," said Dr. G.

"Well, that's what he said,
and he's a telepath, so I guess
he should know," said Liberty.
"I don't feel any different, though."

"Do you ever feel like you want
to do one thing, but find yourself
doing another?" asked Dr. G.

"Yeah, sometimes," said Liberty.
"Doesn't it happen to everyone?"

"Possibly so," said Dr. G.
"What do you think about it?"

Liberty snorted. "That you're
another silly head-shrinker like
the guy at the community center."

"That's part of my job," said Dr. G.
"Can you think of anything that
you might like some help with?"

"Maybe fitting in here," she said,
tapping her fingers on the table.
"It's a mixed group, and I haven't
worked with white people a lot,
but I really need this job."

"Diversity skills," said Dr. G.
"Useful to know, applicable in
any career, and you couldn't have
picked a better place to learn them."

He popped open his briefcase
and passed her a few pages.

"These are some activities that
can help you stretch yourself and
learn more about other people,"
said Dr. G. "Start with fun ones,
and it will be easier to grow."

Liberty looked at the list.
Visit an art show from
another culture. Listen to
music in a foreign language.
Eat at an ethnic restaurant.
Read a book set far away.

"Really? This counts?"
she said. "It's not much."

"It's a start," said Dr. G.
"Don't overwhelm yourself."

"It's just ..." Liberty picked at
the corner of a page. "Boss White
made it sound like I'm kind of a mess."

"He saw some things inside you that
worried him," said Dr. G. "Ideally,
we'd like for a mindhealer to take
a look. Trouble is, neither of us
know one suited to this case. So,
I'm starting with simpler methods
that I already have in hand."

"And that'll work?" said Liberty.

"Whether it does or not, it will
tell us something useful about
the inside of your head," said Dr. G.

He pulled out a few more pages
and offered them to Liberty.

"These can help you think about
your beliefs and values," he said.
"You might find places where you
want something, but feel as if
you're getting pulled up short."

Liberty wrinkled her nose. "It
looks like homework," she said.

"It can be," said Dr. G. "Maybe
something more visual would appeal?"

Next he pulled out a colorful page
that made her more curious,
and text that explained it.

"A pie chart?" Liberty said,
leaning over to look at it.

She realized that the labels
were all about different parts of
her life and how they worked.

"Oh!" She tapped one of
the wedges. "I got a job!"

"Congratulations," said Dr. G.
"How do you feel about that?"

"Really great," said Liberty.
"I'm so proud of myself. I wasn't
sure I could get a decent job,
but I did. Cook even offered
to teach me some kitchen skills!"

"That's quite an accomplishment,"
said Dr. G. "That sounds like
your career section is doing
well. If you wish, you can think
about other parts of your life
and how well they stand up,
or what you'd like to improve."

Liberty looked at the pie chart
again. Family was a mess but
she didn't want to poke at it.
Romance didn't interest her.

Fun, well, she had a bunch
of new things to try out now.
Finances should be good
since she just got a job, and
social, sure, she had met
people who didn't suck.

"Yeah, I can work with this,"
she said. "You really think
this will get me to okay?

"Mental health is
not a destination, but
a process," said Dr. G.
"It’s about how you drive,
not where you’re going."

"I can't drive either,"
Liberty pointed out.

Dr. G chuckled. "That's
all right, it's another thing
you can learn if you like."

"Maybe I should start with
a bus pass," said Liberty.
"That's a lot easier to earn."

"An excellent goal," said Dr. G.
"That covers your transportation.
You have a job and income already.
Perhaps a fun goal and a practical one?"

"Cook's going to teach me knife skills,"
Liberty reminded him. She looked at
the pages again. "I could try eating
at an ethnic restaurant. It's gotta
be good to know the competition."

Dr. G made some notes on a page
of his own. "That's a plan," he said.
"I'll drop by here in a week or so, and
you can tell me about your adventures."

"Okay," said Liberty. "I think I'd like it.
I don't know many folks here yet."

"Then it's a deal," Dr. G said,
and so they shook on it.

* * *

Notes:

This poem is long, so its notes appear elsewhere.

Current Mood: busy

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

see_also_friend

>>Some, but most are more extreme.<<

Sliding scale. Screaming at someone in front of witnesses is on the same sale as /beating/ someone in front of witnesses, just to a greater/lesser degree.

>>Those are peacework tactics, yes. Some people have set up facilities for child soldiers from opposite sides and worked on teaching them how to live together sanely. It can work, but it needs a lot of hands-on staff.<<

I know there are skills, but had anyone distilled them into a hand-out-on-the street manifesto?

This thingamagig was designed to hack society into a cruel, vicious, classist form, to be handed out to the Everyman of society, and was not relegated to high-level specialists. A peacework manifesto designed to hack society towards compassio and to handle be handed out to everyone is something I'm not quite sure I've heard of. (Pieces, yes, but not a step-by-step for everyone instruction manual.)

>>Hannah will skin anyone who asks him for help again.<<

I wouldn't suggest asking him before he is an adult, and ideally has some training (at which point Hannah may still have some Strong Opinions, but it will ultimately be Danso's choice.).

Also, this problem won't be solved in the next twenty years, much less two. It's not an immediate life-or-death situation, so waiting for Danso to be grown and trained isn't under the same sort of time crunch.

>>So it depends whether he learned a specific or general mental health spell.<<

I'd make an educated guess that : he would know some spells (or whatever appropriate term) for luck, health, and general protection or shielding, since those are usually what people want to use positive magic for. It seems logical that those sort of spells could be used at minimum to buffer or splint the hacking to basically stabilize or backstop certain negative aspects. If that is the case, the issue would be if the effort is worth the tradeoff (and that is factoring in the issue that Victor actually lived through chattel-slavery trauma.)

>>Maybe? But that'd be a couple decades down the road.<<

Again, long-term problem, long-term solution.

>>Hmm, but Cas could do it. He doesn't have much training yet, but he's probably picked up some emotional first aid along with his fairly serious pursuit of physical first aid. He's angelkin, and that's powerful. He's also working for a gang in a rough neighborhood where they could plausibly encounter victims, and Boss White will certainly warn Boss Blaster.<<

I thought Cas and Hali were, white, or white-passing? Or did I misread that? (To be fair, the team medic, and especially a /combat/ medic, is more likely to get a pass for being somehow 'different' from the rest of the group.)

>>The letter cites the James River in Virginia and a plantation somewhere in the West Indies. <<
Location is useful for

(1) searching for the spread of victims which can likely be described as...extensive, and

(2) determining the area to search for potential healers. And estadounidense-only vs American Continents vs match-healer-to-patient's-culture affects the number of potential soulhealers available /and/ the optimal search method.

>>
You can with either telepathy or Soul Powers, but that requires having another person that the recipient trusts enough. Dr. G and Boss White have patched up Shiv a time or two.<<

So that maybe opens up the option of having a more diverse set of responders, if you can piggyback off a trusted companion who has looser or weaker inhibitions.

The downsides are firstly that I am sure organizing something bumps up against T-Earth white-hat ethics, and secondly that mental or soul-based intimacy can be a bit clingy (which might be a risk with any telempath/soul power, but might be a little riskier with an untrained assistant).

>>And I suspect that few if any are working professionally, except maybe inside organizations like Kraken / Thalassia.<<

So they're more like traditional healers rather than doctors who'd have a certifying body which keeps lists?

>>That's a good idea.<<

Now I'm curious about first aid telempathy skills...

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Sliding scale. Screaming at someone in front of witnesses is on the same sale as /beating/ someone in front of witnesses, just to a greater/lesser degree.<<

Maybe, though some would argue that verbal vs. physical abuse is a difference of kind.

>> I know there are skills, but had anyone distilled them into a hand-out-on-the street manifesto? <<

Not that I know of for child soldiers, that tends to be an intensive treatment camp -- if anyone does anything for them at all.

I've seen handouts about breaking through racism, including internalized racism. How well that would work in this case likely depends on the individual.

>> This thingamagig was designed to hack society into a cruel, vicious, classist form, to be handed out to the Everyman of society, and was not relegated to high-level specialists. <<

Yyyyeah.

>> A peacework manifesto designed to hack society towards compassio and to handle be handed out to everyone is something I'm not quite sure I've heard of. (Pieces, yes, but not a step-by-step for everyone instruction manual.)<<

There are peacework handbooks here. You do have to choose between in-depth coverage of one tool, like participatory decision-making vs a broader coverage of peacework in general like this overview textbook or this how-to manual.

So what they'd need in this case would be a book on how to work through instilled racism without tearing yourself apart in the process. It's doable.

>>I wouldn't suggest asking him before he is an adult, and ideally has some training (at which point Hannah may still have some Strong Opinions, but it will ultimately be Danso's choice.).<<

Point.

>> Also, this problem won't be solved in the next twenty years, much less two. It's not an immediate life-or-death situation, so waiting for Danso to be grown and trained isn't under the same sort of time crunch.<<

Yyyyyeah.

>> I'd make an educated guess that : he would know some spells (or whatever appropriate term) for luck, health, and general protection or shielding, since those are usually what people want to use positive magic for. It seems logical that those sort of spells could be used at minimum to buffer or splint the hacking to basically stabilize or backstop certain negative aspects.<<

That's true. However, consider that Africa had intertribal slavery all along. Whites just changed the parameters. It's what people had been doing with prisoners of war. So, there might be spells for coping with that kind of damage.

>> If that is the case, the issue would be if the effort is worth the tradeoff (and that is factoring in the issue that Victor actually lived through chattel-slavery trauma.) <<

I'd say it's whether Victor can handle it without having a complete meltdown. But he survived slavery, so I suspect he's got iron will.

>> I thought Cas and Hali were, white, or white-passing? Or did I misread that? (To be fair, the team medic, and especially a /combat/ medic, is more likely to get a pass for being somehow 'different' from the rest of the group.) <<

They look white, as in they're light-colored and generally resemble Europeans. But they're only white in the sense that Cas is male or Hali is female. For them, it's the shape they're wearing at the moment. They're too aware of being souls to be really attached to meat-based identity like most humans are.

Plus of course, they're in a gang as racially mixed as the Ebonies and Ivories. You have to be comfortable with diversity to belong there.

Finally, I guarantee that problem is not limited to people who look African-American. Those good ol' boys would bang anything that didn't run away fast enough. So over time, the streams mix and cross and remix. Somewhere around 1/4 to 1/8 black with the rest white, it starts getting feasible to pass for white -- and sooner, for Italian or Hispanic. That loops back into white culture and spreads the problem there too.

>> (1) searching for the spread of victims which can likely be described as...extensive, and <<

Very much so.

>> (2) determining the area to search for potential healers. And estadounidense-only vs American Continents vs match-healer-to-patient's-culture affects the number of potential soulhealers available /and/ the optimal search method. <<

Starting at ground zero makes sense for finding the most victims. You need mindhealers or soulhealers who are familiar with America's fraught racial history -- or the Caribbean.

>>So that maybe opens up the option of having a more diverse set of responders, if you can piggyback off a trusted companion who has looser or weaker inhibitions.<<

It does.

>>The downsides are firstly that I am sure organizing something bumps up against T-Earth white-hat ethics, and secondly that mental or soul-based intimacy can be a bit clingy (which might be a risk with any telempath/soul power, but might be a little riskier with an untrained assistant).<<

They are somewhat aware of bonding as a possibility, but it's still rare. They're just getting to where some of the safety issues with that are known as denser populations develop.

In the previous case with Boss White and Dr. G, they actually were both experts in different areas. I suspect that will happen again.

>> So they're more like traditional healers rather than doctors who'd have a certifying body which keeps lists?<<

At present, yes. Mindhealers are rare, soulhealers even more so; there aren't enough for that kind of organization yet.

>>Now I'm curious about first aid telempathy skills...<<

The first one is plain old "put pressure on it." Ruptures are more common than you might think, and utterly miserable. Just plugging the leak long enough for it to start sealing over is a huge help. Like, when someone is falling apart, you press inward from the outside to stop that ripping wider, and try to squeeze it back together. Sometimes it can be done socially, but having an actual superpower raises the threshold of injury that can be treated that way.

On a similar level, the telepathic equivalent of ice and heat can help a lot for different types of injuries. Emotional contusions are common, serious ones less so but can happen -- I think that has come up in Molly's stories. Heat is for things like emotional hypothermia. And so on.

Feel free to prompt for more if you'd like to pursue this.

From:

see_also_friend

>>Maybe, though some would argue that verbal vs. physical abuse is a difference of kind.<<

I think I usually file them as separate types, with verbal as usually lesser in severity. (Not a perfect assessment, slapping someone once /is/ arguably less violent than screaming death threats at them for hours.)

Still, society usually considers verbal abuse to be lesser in severity than physical.

>>I've seen handouts about breaking through racism, including internalized racism. How well that would work in this case likely depends on the individual.<<

Still not quite what I was going for, that's too specific. I was thinking of something with instructions for how to build people up to make a new and better society - without limiting it to racism, sexism, child soldiers, etc. Most of the references I have seen are scattered into different topics, or generic skills for things like diversity.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I think I usually file them as separate types, with verbal as usually lesser in severity. (Not a perfect assessment, slapping someone once /is/ arguably less violent than screaming death threats at them for hours.)

Still, society usually considers verbal abuse to be lesser in severity than physical.<<

I tend to look at severity in terms of lasting damage. Casual verbal abuse is often less severe because even casual physical abuse can leave injuries that take weeks to heal. But a slight increase in verbal abuse quickly becomes something that deals lasting damage that society doesn't have the technology to fix, whereas it requires a major increase in physical abuse to cause injuries that can't be fixed.

>>Still not quite what I was going for, that's too specific. I was thinking of something with instructions for how to build people up to make a new and better society - without limiting it to racism, sexism, child soldiers, etc. Most of the references I have seen are scattered into different topics, or generic skills for things like diversity.<<

*ponder* You could do it with a database. It kind reminds me of how a mental clinic in T-America typically has a whole bookcase full of premade modules on popular topics, both in terms of solving common problems and filling in mental skills like diversity or problem-solving.

From:

see_also_friend

>>I tend to look at severity in terms of lasting damage.<<

Also, verbal or emotional abuse is often less obvious to bystanders, which means irt may go on longer - or even that the bystanders may join in, knowingly or otherwise.

>>*ponder* You could do it with a database.<<

That would probably work. Or start with a short resource with a very basic outline of terms and skills, etc...

>>It kind reminds me of how a mental clinic in T-America typically has a whole bookcase full of premade modules on popular topics,...<<

...and then supplement with a bibliography or other list of more specialized resources.

Also, I have seen similar mini-livraries, mostly ones run by social justice activists and suchlike.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>>Also, verbal or emotional abuse is often less obvious to bystanders, which means irt may go on longer - or even that the bystanders may join in, knowingly or otherwise.<<

That depends on people's knowledge, and in T-America, many more people know about those abuses and how to block them. It'll create a patchwork partly based on location and largely based on luck.

>>That would probably work. Or start with a short resource with a very basic outline of terms and skills, etc...<<

Good idea.

>> ...and then supplement with a bibliography or other list of more specialized resources.<<

You can also find those in public libraries. Even here, it seems that many libraries have an archive of recommended reading lists by topic. Sometimes I stumble across them in my research.

>> Also, I have seen similar mini-livraries, mostly ones run by social justice activists and suchlike.<<

Those are quite common in T-America.

From:

see_also_friend

>>You can also find those in public libraries.<<

I think I've seen those more often with books, articles, etc than in libraries, unless perhaps the library is promoting a specific topic. Of course, maybe I haven't been spending enough time in libraries lately to keep from skewing my results!

>>Those are quite common in T-America.<<

It seems like 'cultivate a small library' would be more favored as a hobby of niche groups there.

From:

see_also_friend

>>So what they'd need in this case would be a book on how to work through instilled racism without tearing yourself apart in the process. It's doable.<<

Yes, though I wouldn't limit it to just racism. Think all this '-isms' that get discussed in intersectional feminism.

>>That's true. However, consider that Africa had intertribal slavery all along. Whites just changed the parameters.<<

The uniqueness of American slavery is that it was race based slavery that got passed down. This had two issues: (1) people could never get out of the slve-caste because they would never look like everyone else, and (2 the slavery did not end after a generation, and in many cases, even after buying oneself free).

So what kind of slavery did they use in precolonial Africa? Debt slavery? Serfdom? indentured servitude? Wage slaves?

Just, the American system may have caused specific sorts of damage that might not be as common with other systems.

Also, people might not recognize the damage. PTSD is usually thought of as being connected to combat rather than to being drafted, and timidity (though a common symptom of abuse) is seen as a positive trait in women and other stereotypically subordinate groups.

>>So, there might be spells for coping with that kind of damage.<>I'd say it's whether Victor can handle it without having a complete meltdown.<<

It's also possible he might have a meltdown after hearing about the news but before processing it. Or he can only work on the problem a little at a time.

Heck, maybe he'd already found the problem and has either beet fixing it as he can, or waiting for a better opportunity.

Hmmm, do Soul Powers have a manifestation cluster? Because its possible that someone with Soul Powers growing up in an environment where /everyone/ is damaged might either think that's normal, or that it's something people just don't talk about. (People probably didn't freak out about footbinding... or advertise the worst parts of it on a day-to-day basis.)

>>They're too aware of being souls to be really attached to meat-based identity like most humans are.<<

So is the 'needs an African-American mindhealer' related to needing
a) shared experience of being black in America
b) a meatsuit the patient feels comfortable with, or
c) experience with the problem at hand?

Experience can be gained. YMMV on comfort-level, but Cas does have a nonthreatening demeanor and black friends who would follow him around as a vouching-for buddy if needed. If he needs the living-while-black experience...well I doubt he'd be able to get it directly, but he can listen and people might trust him as a white ally.

>>That loops back into white culture and spreads the problem there too.<<

I can likely pinpoint some cultural quirks among groups of white folks that would tie into that. For starters, the very (and detrimental to one's own goals and values) aggressive behavior in some circles...

>>Starting at ground zero makes sense for finding the most victims. You need mindhealers or soulhealers who are familiar with America's fraught racial history -- or the Caribbean.<>It does.<<

Also, it sounds like there will be a shortage of resources (healers), and in that case maximizing potential resources is very helpful.

Also, the greater diversity might attract people who would otherwise not come in or not be recommended for the screening.

>>They are somewhat aware of bonding as a possibility, but it's still rare.<<

Still a recognizable threat in cases without superpowers, especially if someone is hurt or lacking resources.

>>In the previous case with Boss White and Dr. G, they actually were both experts in different areas. I suspect that will happen again.<<

They make a good team. Maybe Boss White will be willing to be an emergency consultant after he retires?

>>Feel free to prompt for more if you'd like to pursue this.
<<

Boss White could probably benefit from a skills upgrade. He could also mentor a younger empath, if one turns up.

I can also see Shiv walking someone through the skills too, given that the Finns are rubbing off on him /and/ his tendency to hang around with telempaths (and teleporters who seem to have lots of friend).

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>>Yes, though I wouldn't limit it to just racism. Think all this '-isms' that get discussed in intersectional feminism.<<

I'm not sure it would all fit in one book, but you could do a series.

>> The uniqueness of American slavery is that it was race based slavery that got passed down. <<

Largely true. There are a few other examples but not many, and each had its own quirks.

>> This had two issues: (1) people could never get out of the slve-caste because they would never look like everyone else, <<

Except that slavers had a profound tendency to hump the victims, which is what led to nonsense like the one-drop rule, passing, and arguments over who "is" black enough or white enough.

>> and (2 the slavery did not end after a generation, and in many cases, even after buying oneself free).<<

True.

>> So what kind of slavery did they use in precolonial Africa? Debt slavery? Serfdom? indentured servitude? Wage slaves? <<

The first three are fairly common around the world, along with penal slavery and enslaving prisoners of war. The main reference I've seen in this context is Africans selling prisoners of war to white people, to get them permanently out of the way without killing them. And that's how there came to be royal slaves, which freaked some white people severely. Since Africa is large with many nations, other examples may have occurred. In fact if you buy into the claim of Hebrews enslaved in Egypt, which is northern Africa, that is one of the other race-based, generational examples which also blew up in everyone's face.

>> Just, the American system may have caused specific sorts of damage that might not be as common with other systems.<<

That is true, but no system of slavery seems to be harmless. Among the least-worst I've seen is how ancient Greece and Rome routinely enslaved war captives to bring them into their societies. Those who wanted to regain their freedom could buy their way out, and many did. But it was still rampant colonialism, cultural and sometimes physical genocide, abuse of war prisoners, and economic exploitation.

>> Also, people might not recognize the damage. PTSD is usually thought of as being connected to combat rather than to being drafted, and timidity (though a common symptom of abuse) is seen as a positive trait in women and other stereotypically subordinate groups.<<

Often true. Even in Terramagne, not everyone has the training to recognize a wide range of trauma, and it took a while for people to get from the obvious causes (war) to less-obvious ones (a natural disaster, slavery).

>>It's also possible he might have a meltdown after hearing about the news but before processing it. Or he can only work on the problem a little at a time.<<

Yeah, Victor seems good at handling emergencies, but he is in a safe environment now so he can afford to fall apart when needed.

>> Heck, maybe he'd already found the problem and has either beet fixing it as he can, or waiting for a better opportunity.<<

That wouldn't surprise me. With his different perspective, he might not perceive it the same way.

>> Hmmm, do Soul Powers have a manifestation cluster? <<

They do. There are related abilities within that field, and while rare, some societies have more than others, or have one bit attached to another field like Soul Retrieval in Shamanism.

>> Because its possible that someone with Soul Powers growing up in an environment where /everyone/ is damaged might either think that's normal, or that it's something people just don't talk about. <<

Point.

>> (People probably didn't freak out about footbinding... or advertise the worst parts of it on a day-to-day basis.) <<

There were actually admonishments to leave the shoes on, and be content with the outward appearance -- because underneath, the actual feet were hideous.

>> So is the 'needs an African-American mindhealer' related to needing
a) shared experience of being black in America
b) a meatsuit the patient feels comfortable with, or
c) experience with the problem at hand? <<

All three apply. Shared experience makes it easier to understand and sympathize, which also contributes to patient comfort. Even in T-America, how many black people would be comfortable with a white person in their head trying to fix what some other cracker broke? :/ And experience with the problem saves time, even if it can be learned. Nobody wants to get stuck educating their caregiver.

>> Experience can be gained. YMMV on comfort-level, but Cas does have a nonthreatening demeanor and black friends who would follow him around as a vouching-for buddy if needed. If he needs the living-while-black experience...well I doubt he'd be able to get it directly, but he can listen and people might trust him as a white ally. <<

Cas is a bit of an exception for a couple reasons. First, he's in a mixed gang and based on his comfort level and family income, i would bet he also grew up in a mixed neighborhood. Boss Blaster and Shiv have similar cultural contact in that they are familiar with and comfortable in black society.

Cas also has angel heritage, which makes him feel safe and trustworthy to most people, whether they realize why or not.

>>I was mostly wondering where to look for healers, though I do agree that they'll likely need different information-spreading techniques for the Americas and elsewhere.<<

Options include:

* concentrations of black people due to the Diaspora, so especially the US South and the Caribbean, but also certain cities like New York and Chicago, or places out West, that gathered populations from migrations

* the network of black caregivers in health care, so for instance, I'd expect Freeman's Family Hospital to be in the vanguard

* supervillain organizations such as Kraken, who not only collect people with superpowers, they have tons of trauma and thus experience handling it.

>> Also, it sounds like there will be a shortage of resources (healers), and in that case maximizing potential resources is very helpful. <<

That's always the case -- there are never enough healers to go around, mindhealers even more so, and soul healers most of all.

>> Also, the greater diversity might attract people who would otherwise not come in or not be recommended for the screening. <<

True.

>>Still a recognizable threat in cases without superpowers, especially if someone is hurt or lacking resources.<<

Agreed. People will figure out bonding over time. If that interests you, Calliope and Vagary are at the forefront of it, because of how they got attached.

>> They make a good team. Maybe Boss White will be willing to be an emergency consultant after he retires? <<

That's possible.

>> Boss White could probably benefit from a skills upgrade. <<

Agreed.

>> He could also mentor a younger empath, if one turns up.<<

Easy to do in the Maldives. I know he's attracting other young soups -- he found one with Water Powers.

>> I can also see Shiv walking someone through the skills too, given that the Finns are rubbing off on him /and/ his tendency to hang around with telempaths (and teleporters who seem to have lots of friend).<<

Plausible.

From:

see_also_friend

>>Except that slavers had a profound tendency to hump the victims, which is what led to nonsense like the one-drop rule, passing, and arguments over who "is" black enough or white enough.<<

True...though the only reason it mattered if someone was 'black' was, again the caste system. In some ways it would have been simpler if the rule was 'the children follow the mother' or 'buy your self into/out of slavery.'

>>The main reference I've seen in this context is Africans selling prisoners of war to white people, to get them permanently out of the way without killing them.<<

Okay, so a different version of the whole Greeks and Romans thing... or transporting convents, I suppose.

>>And that's how there came to be royal slaves, which freaked some white people severely.<<

Meanwhile, that seems odd to my modern perspective, as 200-400 years later, race is a more significant marker of day-to-day interactions than nobility. (I do remember Pocahontas' standing as an 'Indian Princess' causing some complications with her marriage, though.)

I could also argue that one can be a royal, or a slave, but typically cannot be acting in both roles at the same time - and those few cases where they /can/ it is usually split by societies/cultures. I.e. the slavers do not recognize the royal role [i.e. 'uppity slave'] and the monarchical community does not recognize the slave role [i.e. 'imprisonment'].

>>Often true. Even in Terramagne, not everyone has the training to recognize a wide range of trauma, and it took a while for people to get from the obvious causes (war) to less-obvious ones (a natural disaster, slavery).<<

Which leads me to wonder - how would PTSD be framed in a society that first identified it as a reaction to a non-military trauma? For example, P-Earth will likely identify it primarily as resulting from slavery, sexual violence, or domestic violence. I am guessing in roughly that order...though it is possible that the shipcrews will latch onto slavery-as-cause while the motherhouses latch on to the sexual violence aspect. (Actually, maybe the slavery-cause would be # 2, since the motherhouses are going to be processing lots of people a few decades before the serious slaveship raids start...)

>>That wouldn't surprise me. With his different perspective, he might not perceive it the same way.<<

Just for starters, he might consider the current state of affairs an improvement over how the past was. Like, the bindings are gradually weakening, or society is shifting to be less, hm, athoratively-violent over time.

Plus the immortal tendency to plan for centuries or millennia, rather than years or decades.

>>That is true, but no system of slavery seems to be harmless.<<

True, especially as my definition of slavery or unpersoning is being unable [i.e. not allowed] to tell someone not to hurt you.

>>Among the least-worst I've seen is how ancient Greece and Rome routinely enslaved war captives to bring them into their societies. Those who wanted to regain their freedom could buy their way out, and many did.<<

Well, also compare the US system People don't fuss about Irish slaves being racially oppressed - because they/their descendants look white to modern eyes. So, any negative stereotypes aren't there at the first look someone gives you.

>>Even in T-America, how many black people would be comfortable with a white person in their head trying to fix what some other cracker broke?<<

I could see someone being more willing to use an outsider-mindhealer as a sort of anchor or navigational point (than having them poke inside someone's head).

Think the mental version of being a calming non-anxious presence, ore grounding presence to someone who is having mental or emotional health issue. And if the helping person is a) trustworthy, and b) more mentally stable in that way/at that point in time, it could work quite well.

Meanwhile, the poking in someone's head - that would be more analogous to a sexual violence survivor trusting a new partner. Not impossible, but much more individual and based in a higher-level-trust relationship with a specific person.

Another thing to consider : who says the non-black mindhealer has to be /white/? There's a ton of people in all sorts of meatsuits who have dealt with similar sorts of issues. Would a black patient object to, say, a Hispanic or Native American Soul Healer? What about someone who might have a white-looking meatsuit, but is part of a different oppressed minority, such as being trans or Jewish?

I'm used to working with suboptimal levels of resources, and if I know to what degree someone is saying no and why, it is easier for me to triangulate a workable solution.

...also, I suspect someone in Terramagne has, at least one, attempted to do emergency mental patchwork on someone and come away with a really nasty mental echo-imprint of the original issue. Ditto, I suspect there's at least one instance of someone /refusing/ a mental patch job because they don't want to subject the helper to their panic attack/PTSD/depression/dysphoria/behavioral addition/etc.

>> Because its possible that someone with Soul Powers growing up in an environment where /everyone/ is damaged might either think that's normal, or that it's something people just don't talk about. <<
>>Point.<<

...that would be an interesting story to explore, at some point.

>>There were actually admonishments to leave the shoes on, and be content with the outward appearance -- because underneath, the actual feet were hideous.<<

That's kind of the point - people routinely hide the messy or unpleasant bits of stuff, because the shiny version is so much more appealing. But that kind of...corrupts the idea of what gets passed down, and what we think of as 'good' becomes too perfect to be real, and what we think of as 'bad' also becomes to...hmmm stereotypical to really understand. And then the people who are learning from the stories don't get the accurate picture of the whole thing, and they have to learn from experience all of the "Well, it's complicated" bits that got left out.

But also - if you grow up with footbinding - you're going to think it is normal for adult women to have feet that are beautiful in the shoes and hideous out of them.

Also, see stuff like chronic pain, where people get told to stop fussing, and end up developing a crazy-high pain tolerance because for them, that level of pain is normal. And then the normies end up being /horrified/ when the chronic pain person shrugs off massive [painful] injuries because the they have worse every Tuesday, so to speak.

>>Cas is a bit of an exception for a couple reasons.<<

So if he does have Soul Powers, it might be possible to have him in the room as an option, and then have potential patients/clients/whatever approach him at whatever distance and type of interaction they prefer. At least, that seems to be the most sensible option, as far as I can see.

>>..especially the US South and the Caribbean...<<

Hmm, someplace like Haiti... you could probably get a lot of people into useful roles by investing in education.

>>...supervillain organizations such as Kraken...<<

They probably have enough recruits that fit the bill that they'll form their own support groups as soon as the news breaks. They may also have enough resources to set up a sort of mindhealer program...

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> True...though the only reason it mattered if someone was 'black' was, again the caste system. In some ways it would have been simpler if the rule was 'the children follow the mother' or 'buy your self into/out of slavery.' <<

The rule was "The child shall follow the condition of the mother." This relied on the premise that white men would have access to black women, but black men would not have access to white women. It's why so many people still go apeshit about the latter combination.

Some parts of America at some times allowed manumission and/or buying oneself out of slavery, but others banned one or both. I don't think it was ever common or standard, the way that buying out of slavery was quite typical in Greece and Rome.

It really did function a lot like a caste system, and in fact, New Orleans had a three-caste system with whites, free creoles of color, and blacks (usually slaves). It was much more progressive than the two-caste system elsewhere in America at the time, and people there lost a lot when it collapsed into a two-caste system after the Civil War.

>>Meanwhile, that seems odd to my modern perspective, as 200-400 years later, race is a more significant marker of day-to-day interactions than nobility. (I do remember Pocahontas' standing as an 'Indian Princess' causing some complications with her marriage, though.) <<

Remember we've had a few centuries to stop caring about nobility, and this is America. People were closer to monarchy in the past, even in America, and much of Europe still has royalty and other nobility. They're often quite invested in difference of kind such that enslaving royalty was an assault to their sensibilities.

>>I could also argue that one can be a royal, or a slave, but typically cannot be acting in both roles at the same time - and those few cases where they /can/ it is usually split by societies/cultures. I.e. the slavers do not recognize the royal role [i.e. 'uppity slave'] and the monarchical community does not recognize the slave role [i.e. 'imprisonment'].<<

In fact, what repeatedly gave away royal slaves was a combination of high-class bearing and near or total lack of practical skills. They just couldn't pass as slaves.

>> Which leads me to wonder - how would PTSD be framed in a society that first identified it as a reaction to a non-military trauma? For example, P-Earth will likely identify it primarily as resulting from slavery, sexual violence, or domestic violence.<<

Post-Traumatic Slavery Disorder, yeah, that would be the biggest example there.

>> I am guessing in roughly that order...though it is possible that the shipcrews will latch onto slavery-as-cause while the motherhouses latch on to the sexual violence aspect.<<

Possibly so.

>> (Actually, maybe the slavery-cause would be # 2, since the motherhouses are going to be processing lots of people a few decades before the serious slaveship raids start...) <<

Perhaps, but they would have to separate it from the overall trauma of being a woman in a man's world, and most people are bad at that.

>> Just for starters, he might consider the current state of affairs an improvement over how the past was. Like, the bindings are gradually weakening, or society is shifting to be less, hm, athoratively-violent over time.<<

Likely so.

>> Plus the immortal tendency to plan for centuries or millennia, rather than years or decades.<<

I don't think Victor has actually grown into that yet. Until recently, he seemed to scuffle along however he could, and not make plans far ahead or try to set down roots for long. But now he has a real, stable family so that is changing.

>> True, especially as my definition of slavery or unpersoning is being unable [i.e. not allowed] to tell someone not to hurt you.<<

Which is a very solid argument for wage-slavery.

>>Well, also compare the US system People don't fuss about Irish slaves being racially oppressed - because they/their descendants look white to modern eyes. So, any negative stereotypes aren't there at the first look someone gives you.<<

Oh, there were strong racial elements against each wave of immigrants, and very pronounced racism through mockery, violence, oppressive laws, etc. The difference is that most Europeans, especially northern Europeans, looked close enough to Americans that after a couple of generations they faded into the rest of the society. Plus as more southern Europeans and other people who looked less white arrived, the others got rolled in to increase the white contingent. It's called "the whitening of America."

Most people don't even know that the Irish were a substantial part of slavery in America during a certain time period.

>>I could see someone being more willing to use an outsider-mindhealer as a sort of anchor or navigational point (than having them poke inside someone's head).<<

That's possible.

>> Think the mental version of being a calming non-anxious presence, ore grounding presence to someone who is having mental or emotional health issue. And if the helping person is a) trustworthy, and b) more mentally stable in that way/at that point in time, it could work quite well.<<

Applies to both Dr. G and Cas. I wouldn't call Shiv nonanxious, but he is quite good at handling the kind of diversity issues that he was trained for at Blues Moon.

>> Meanwhile, the poking in someone's head - that would be more analogous to a sexual violence survivor trusting a new partner. Not impossible, but much more individual and based in a higher-level-trust relationship with a specific person.<<

That fits.

>> Another thing to consider : who says the non-black mindhealer has to be /white/? There's a ton of people in all sorts of meatsuits who have dealt with similar sorts of issues. Would a black patient object to, say, a Hispanic or Native American Soul Healer? What about someone who might have a white-looking meatsuit, but is part of a different oppressed minority, such as being trans or Jewish? <<

I suspect that being white would be a larger barrier than being brown, red, or yellow; but they still wouldn't have the black experience that would be so helpful. *ponder* However, certain other cultures have a defined underclass such that a member of that would have a closer grasp than average for a nonblack -- for example, burakumin in Japan or dalit in India.

>> I'm used to working with suboptimal levels of resources, and if I know to what degree someone is saying no and why, it is easier for me to triangulate a workable solution. <> ...also, I suspect someone in Terramagne has, at least one, attempted to do emergency mental patchwork on someone and come away with a really nasty mental echo-imprint of the original issue. Ditto, I suspect there's at least one instance of someone /refusing/ a mental patch job because they don't want to subject the helper to their panic attack/PTSD/depression/dysphoria/behavioral addition/etc.<<

That all sounds disturbingly plausible.

>>Also, see stuff like chronic pain, where people get told to stop fussing, and end up developing a crazy-high pain tolerance because for them, that level of pain is normal. And then the normies end up being /horrified/ when the chronic pain person shrugs off massive [painful] injuries because the they have worse every Tuesday, so to speak.<<

Yep. Shiv doesn't like being hit, but his relationship with pain is pretty bent. It just doesn't occur to him to ask for help or health care because he spent so long not getting much or any. He had a broken arm heal wrong because it was never set, and only got that fixed recently.

>>So if he does have Soul Powers, it might be possible to have him in the room as an option, and then have potential patients/clients/whatever approach him at whatever distance and type of interaction they prefer. At least, that seems to be the most sensible option, as far as I can see.<<

That makes sense.

>>Hmm, someplace like Haiti... you could probably get a lot of people into useful roles by investing in education.<<

Not Haiti, it's a bottom-ten country for reasons. That's where Saraphina fled from. :(

Somewhere less barbaric in the Caribbean would work though.

>>They probably have enough recruits that fit the bill that they'll form their own support groups as soon as the news breaks. They may also have enough resources to set up a sort of mindhealer program...<<

I expect so.

From:

see_also_friend

>>The rule was "The child shall follow the condition of the mother." This relied on the premise that white men would have access to black women, but black men would not have access to white women. It's why so many people still go apeshit about the latter combination.<<

Maybe at one point, but it eventually became a race-based caste system, hence stuff like the blood quantum laws, making mixed marriages illegal, and the whole paper bag rule of thumb. If it was /just/ who your mother was, you'd only have to show a birth certificate or parish register or something like that indicating that your mother was a free woman.

>>I don't think it was ever common or standard, the way that buying out of slavery was quite typical in Greece and Rome.<<

In Greece and Rome it didn't matter what your ancestry made you look like, but in modern America it very much does ... for certain features [skin color, hair texture] but not for others [looking 'Irish'].

>>Remember we've had a few centuries to stop caring about nobility, and this is America.<<

Yes, cultural differences.

>In fact, what repeatedly gave away royal slaves was a combination of high-class bearing and near or total lack of practical skills.<<

I think the one time I saw it written well, the person had a) been enslaved with several members of their group, b) was a good enough leader that they still respected her, c) assimilated well into the local slave's culture, and d) was mostly supposed to stand around and look 'pretty' as her duties.*
*Yes, she had some practical skills, but etiquette and combat skills were less relevant to the new job than a pretty face.

>>They just couldn't pass as slaves.<<

...I recal another story where the Sweet Polly Oliver who ran away to find her brother was better at chores than all the enslaved boys...because they were in a culture that valued boys, but had girls do all the housework. So she extrapolated from that on how to organize chore in her new 'workplace' (a racing stable) and ended up giving everyone else instructions. (Didn't hurt that she was a few years older than some of the other kids either.)

>>Post-Traumatic Slavery Disorder, yeah, that would be the biggest example there.<<

Hmm, I wonder how the definition of PTS[lavery]D would differ from PTS[oldier]D.

>>Perhaps, but they would have to separate it from the overall trauma of being a woman in a man's world, and most people are bad at that.<<

Keep in mind, though that there will be a range of experience.

Women raised Quaker-style /and in a stable environment/ will not necessarily be more traumatized than modern women, given that they would have been given equal treatment similar to modern women - up to and including the right to participate in [religious] government and refuse marriage!

You'd still see a /ton/ of trauma among the sex workers and former slaves, though. (Conversely, a decent portion of the sex workers may have enough emotional skills to bootstrap themselves/each other through the trauma.)

So the question would be how is someone raised/living at different ages, and how stable is the environment, and what skills do they/their associates have?

For a specific case...we did float the idea of people raiding for symbiosis-community kids and ticking everyone off. The aftereffects of that would be fairly obvious to someone with enough emotional intelligence to pick up on it, if they had a healthy and secure childhood but the PTSD only showed up /after/ the trauma.

>>Which is a very solid argument for wage-slavery.<<

Slavery isn't always /called/ slavery. Prisoners, draftees, wage-slaves and serfs aren't typically called slaves - but all of them in practice lack the right to tell someone not to hurt them, take advantage of them, etc.

>>Plus as more southern Europeans and other people who looked less white arrived, the others got rolled in to increase the white contingent. It's called "the whitening of America."<<

By the original rules, I'm octaroon-something (white passing, though). By modern rules, my great-grandmother and I would both count as 'white.'

>>I wouldn't call Shiv nonanxious, but he is quite good at handling the kind of diversity issues that he was trained for at Blues Moon.<<

If he can stay calm and not get all helpy at people, that's better than average. Plus, depending on the issue, he might actually be better-qualified than a 'normal' person. Think if someone wants to scream cuss words, or needs a spotter to keep self-harm from 'permanent damage' levels - Shiv isn't likely to freak out over either of those, and he's got enough stopping power to keep anything irreversible from happening. And he can refer them to someone with more official expertise once they calm down enough to be open to it.

>>I suspect that being white would be a larger barrier than being brown, red, or yellow; but they still wouldn't have the black experience that would be so helpful.<<

It is possible to have unexpected similarities across cultures.

>>However, certain other cultures have a defined underclass such that a member of that would have a closer grasp than average for a nonblack -- for example, burakumin in Japan or dalit in India.<<

Needing someone who is nonwhite, needing someone who is black, and needing someone who is a member of an underclass are all three slightly different situations. Also, re: underclass, look into non-racial underclass groups, such as gender minorities, persecuted religious minorities...

Hmm, there might be some overlap with abuse or genocide survivors, but I suspect Soul Powers [and empathy, and suchlike] would have an extremely high fatality rate in those cases.

>>That all sounds disturbingly plausible.<<

I've had panic attacks, and I could see myself refusing help* from someone if I thought it would traumatize them so I'm extrapolating from that.

If telepathy were an option... well, that is /not/ a state where the rescuee can be relied on to reliably maintain mental boundaries or restraint, /and/ mind entanglement or damage can be...very difficult.

>>Not Haiti, it's a bottom-ten country for reasons. That's where Saraphina fled from. :( <<

So screen the evacuees, and offer compatible/willing folks training. Or, if there are any programs in Haiti, offer educational opportunities abroad.

In other poorer countries/areas that are more sensible, you could do it without them emigrating.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I think the one time I saw it written well <<

That makes more sense.

>> So she extrapolated from that on how to organize chore in her new 'workplace' (a racing stable) and ended up giving everyone else instructions. <<

Good solution.

>> Hmm, I wonder how the definition of PTS[lavery]D would differ from PTS[oldier]D. <<

* The expected root cause would be slavery rather than combat, and they'd be arguing over whether other types of oppression should count rather than other types of violence. Physical violence wasn't all that common in most types of slavery, because people didn't want to damage the valuable livestock, although it still happened.

* While both forms share the intrusive memories, the signature injury of slavery is choice paralysis. Without the opportunity to learn decision-making skills and responsibility growing up, many former slaves who had been enslaved young or born into it found freedom overwhelming and didn't know how to get by on their own. So some freemen set up villages where people could learn more life skills, a trade, and how to make their own choices gradually.

* With the slavery version, it's a lot easier to recognize as a mental injury that someone else caused, rather than as a moral failing ... once you get past the drapetomania nonsense.

>> Women raised Quaker-style /and in a stable environment/ will not necessarily be more traumatized than modern women, given that they would have been given equal treatment similar to modern women - up to and including the right to participate in [religious] government and refuse marriage!

You'd still see a /ton/ of trauma among the sex workers and former slaves, though. (Conversely, a decent portion of the sex workers may have enough emotional skills to bootstrap themselves/each other through the trauma.) <<

So it might be something that Quaker women would notice in comparing themselves to women of groups that afforded females less in the way of rights.

>> So the question would be how is someone raised/living at different ages, and how stable is the environment, and what skills do they/their associates have? <<

True.

>> For a specific case...we did float the idea of people raiding for symbiosis-community kids and ticking everyone off. The aftereffects of that would be fairly obvious to someone with enough emotional intelligence to pick up on it, if they had a healthy and secure childhood but the PTSD only showed up /after/ the trauma. <<

Yeah, that kind of raid would have you hunted down by every pirate in the Caribbean.

>> Slavery isn't always /called/ slavery. Prisoners, draftees, wage-slaves and serfs aren't typically called slaves - but all of them in practice lack the right to tell someone not to hurt them, take advantage of them, etc. <<

True, which can make it hard to discuss various types of unfreedom.

>> By the original rules, I'm octaroon-something (white passing, though). By modern rules, my great-grandmother and I would both count as 'white.' <<

Yeah, it's interesting to see how constructions of race change over time.

>>If he can stay calm and not get all helpy at people, that's better than average. Plus, depending on the issue, he might actually be better-qualified than a 'normal' person. Think if someone wants to scream cuss words, or needs a spotter to keep self-harm from 'permanent damage' levels - Shiv isn't likely to freak out over either of those, and he's got enough stopping power to keep anything irreversible from happening. And he can refer them to someone with more official expertise once they calm down enough to be open to it.<<

Well reasoned. Shiv is more capable than he realizes.

>> Needing someone who is nonwhite, needing someone who is black, and needing someone who is a member of an underclass are all three slightly different situations. Also, re: underclass, look into non-racial underclass groups, such as gender minorities, persecuted religious minorities... <<

True. I think the first preference would be someone black, second someone nonwhite, and third someone white with relevant experience.

>> Hmm, there might be some overlap with abuse or genocide survivors, but I suspect Soul Powers [and empathy, and suchlike] would have an extremely high fatality rate in those cases. <<

Soul Powers are rare to begin with, and can be targeted if discovered, as happened with Saraphina. But like other superpowers, they can also aid survival considerably. For instance, a common application of Soul Powers is to sense whether an individual is harmless and helpful, or violent and threatening.

>> If telepathy were an option... well, that is /not/ a state where the rescuee can be relied on to reliably maintain mental boundaries or restraint, /and/ mind entanglement or damage can be...very difficult. <<

Basically, the telepath needs excellent shielding. It's one reason why mindhealers are on the rare side.

>> So screen the evacuees, and offer compatible/willing folks training. Or, if there are any programs in Haiti, offer educational opportunities abroad.<<

Good ideas.

>> In other poorer countries/areas that are more sensible, you could do it without them emigrating.<<

Yeah, that would work.

From:

see_also_friend

>>… because people didn't want to damage the valuable livestock, although it still happened.<<

Would it be locked in to oppression, or what we call emotional abuse? Or would they eventually identify it as trauma? Would the chosen-trauma be perceived worse than inflicted-trauma?

Also, if they do lock in on trauma, would they put more emphasis on forced trauma [someone is abducted and enslaved] vs ‘chosen’ trauma [enlisted soldier traumatized by war]?

Hmm, I wonder what the DSM entry would say.

… the signature injury of slavery is choice paralysis.<<

The Animorphs fanfic series Eleutherophobia has a version resulting from infestation, though they don’t call it PTSD. Symptoms include varying levels of disassociation and an overblown freeze response.

I’ll also suggest that other examples of symptoms for P-Earth PTS[lavery]D would be :
- detrimentally or consistently and by-default prioritizing others’ needs/wishes over one’s own wellbeing, and
- ignoring/disassociating from pain/unpleasantness signals as a consistant pattern.

I imagine both would be very common amongst chattel slaves.
:/

>>So some freemen set up villages where people could learn more life skills, a trade, and how to make their own choices gradually.<<

I’ve also seen at least two fanfic examples where the ex-slave basically imprinted on someone who did not want a slave and then the imprintee ended up as the Closest Thing We’ve Got to a therapist. (I do not think either setting had accessible mental healthcare.)

>>* With the slavery version, ... once you get past the drapetomania nonsense.<<

I… kind of doubt that. People believe all sorts of prejudicial nonsense, especially when they think their safety and comfort relies on it. Even on L-Earth, people didn’t start taking PTSD seriously until it started affecting combat readiness – people self-reporting misery or insanity was an ‘inconvenience’ that they were supposed to deal with themselves.

>>So it might be something that Quaker women would notice in comparing themselves to women of groups that afforded females less in the way of rights.<<

Well, compare to modern groups. America is supposedly a good place to live, but falls behind Scandinavia while being well above places like Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. So, how do women in Scandinavia think of women in America and Taliban/Afghanistan? How do American women think of women living in Taliban Afghanistan? (See also 1960s more mainstream feminists vs hippies.) It would be the same attitudes, just several centuries earlier.

Historically, there are references where men where who were raised elsewhere and were trying to marry Quaker women found the long courtship process (and our ability to refuse) to be confusing, irritating, etc.

I have thoughts on how this affects the P-Earth demographics and marriage dynamics…

>>Yeah, that kind of raid would have you hunted down by every pirate in the Caribbean.<<

Set it in SE North America. A semi-smart raider could hit a poorer-seeming costal area, then head inland to try and escape the navy, and then…

>>… types of unfreedom.<

Hence my rule of thumb, which, while imperfect, seems a lot clearer than “We don’t keep slaves but you aren’t allowed to refuse to work as a soldier.”

>>Well reasoned. Shiv is more capable than he realizes.<<

He cares, which is more than I can say for some people.

>>True. I think the first preference...<<

And of course a suitable personality.

>>…with Saraphina.<<

…I thought they were trying to kill her. Were they trying to catch her and use her instead?
:/

>>…sense whether an individual is harmless and helpful, or violent and threatening.<<

But Soul Powers and telempathy when used in an area with many dangerous or damaged people have a high risk of breaking someone’s mind/soul.

Imagine that whenever you’re around people you see them dead, or hear them screaming at full volume, but you have to keep functioning normally : conversations, evacuations, eating, the whole nine yards.

That will not end well, in most cases.

>>Basically, the telepath needs excellent shielding. It's one reason why mindhealers are on the rare side.<<

Shielding would work if the metaphor is “I need to keep this person from tackling me.”

If the metaphor is rescuing someone who is drowning…well, at that point you need a fixed, solid foundation on something/someone else that is solid, /or/ you need to be both willing and able to put the panicking person out [unconscious], because drowning people have been known to injure/kill rescuers trying to ‘climb’ them to get out of the water.

A mental version of that going wrong… well the /best/ case is you’d have two people locked in a feedback-panic loop. Worst case… O.O

A lighter example might be a telempath trying to rescue someone who is used to managing their mental health, but then the rescuee has to patch up the issues with their mind as well as keeping the so-called rescuer safe and relatively calm.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Would it be locked in to oppression, or what we call emotional abuse? Or would they eventually identify it as trauma? Would the chosen-trauma be perceived worse than inflicted-trauma?

Also, if they do lock in on trauma, would they put more emphasis on forced trauma [someone is abducted and enslaved] vs ‘chosen’ trauma [enlisted soldier traumatized by war]? <> The Animorphs fanfic series Eleutherophobia has a version resulting from infestation, though they don’t call it PTSD. Symptoms include varying levels of disassociation and an overblown freeze response.<<

Yikes. Yeah, dissociation and freeze are survival modes.

>> I’ll also suggest that other examples of symptoms for P-Earth PTS[lavery]D would be :
- detrimentally or consistently and by-default prioritizing others’ needs/wishes over one’s own wellbeing, and
- ignoring/disassociating from pain/unpleasantness signals as a consistant pattern.

I imagine both would be very common amongst chattel slaves.<<

True.

I'll add:

* habitually either following or rebelling against other people's requests or orders, without thinking rationally about what is a good idea

* difficulty making decisions or plans

>>I’ve also seen at least two fanfic examples where the ex-slave basically imprinted on someone who did not want a slave and then the imprintee ended up as the Closest Thing We’ve Got to a therapist. (I do not think either setting had accessible mental healthcare.)<<

Yeah, that can happen.

>>Well, compare to modern groups. America is supposedly a good place to live, but falls behind Scandinavia while being well above places like Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.<<

Just because America claims to be a good place to live, doesn't mean it actually is. Ignore the propaganda. Look at the health, how easy it is to get healthcare, how many people are housed or homeless, education, level of violence, number of people kept in cages, perinatal death rate, etc. America scores badly on many measures of civilization success. Saying it's better than Afghanistan is like saying "At least he never hit me." That doesn't make it good.

>> So, how do women in Scandinavia think of women in America and Taliban/Afghanistan? How do American women think of women living in Taliban Afghanistan? (See also 1960s more mainstream feminists vs hippies.) It would be the same attitudes, just several centuries earlier.<<

Interestingly, Muslim women often think other places are cruel to women by making them walk around (by Islamic standards) naked and be stared at. This is not helped by France stripping women's clothes off on public beaches for covering too much skin. >_<

>>Historically, there are references where men where who were raised elsewhere and were trying to marry Quaker women found the long courtship process (and our ability to refuse) to be confusing, irritating, etc.<<

Dude, you do not want to walk into that relationship without knowing exactly what you are getting into.

>> I have thoughts on how this affects the P-Earth demographics and marriage dynamics… <<

It would probably baffle the pirates, whose dangerous lifestyle means they have to grab what pleasure they can while they can.

>> Set it in SE North America. A semi-smart raider could hit a poorer-seeming costal area, then head inland to try and escape the navy, and then… <<

That could work.

>> Hence my rule of thumb, which, while imperfect, seems a lot clearer than “We don’t keep slaves but you aren’t allowed to refuse to work as a soldier.” <<

Draft is slavery. If you can't refuse to work, if you can't make your own choices and keep your own ethics, if your life can be thrown away -- that's slavery, de jure even, just called by a different name. Modern people are squeamish that way.

>> He cares, which is more than I can say for some people.<<

Shiv cares about himself and people he likes, or groups that he likes. He is indifferent to most people and outright hostile to some groups, such as cops.

>> …I thought they were trying to kill her. Were they trying to catch her and use her instead? <<

They were trying to kill her, but some other people try to make use of soups.

>> But Soul Powers and telempathy when used in an area with many dangerous or damaged people have a high risk of breaking someone’s mind/soul. <<

In Terramagne, that is statistically probable, because most of their telepaths are mentally fastidious. It's not necessarily true everywhere, and even there, some people like Nanette are just built differently.

>> Imagine that whenever you’re around people you see them dead, or hear them screaming at full volume, but you have to keep functioning normally : conversations, evacuations, eating, the whole nine yards.<<

*sigh* That's me with my awareness of nature. It does make it hard for me to sympathize with homs.

>>Shielding would work if the metaphor is “I need to keep this person from tackling me.”<<

Possibly.

>> If the metaphor is rescuing someone who is drowning…well, at that point you need a fixed, solid foundation on something/someone else that is solid, /or/ you need to be both willing and able to put the panicking person out [unconscious], because drowning people have been known to injure/kill rescuers trying to ‘climb’ them to get out of the water.<<

I think it would often be like a drowning victim. Shields can be anything you can imagine -- rock, wind, a bubble, deep space, armor -- and different things work in different contexts. But the more intimate the contact, the harder it gets to shield. Even skin contact makes it much more intimate.

>>A mental version of that going wrong… well the /best/ case is you’d have two people locked in a feedback-panic loop. Worst case… O.O <<

Yep.

>> A lighter example might be a telempath trying to rescue someone who is used to managing their mental health, but then the rescuee has to patch up the issues with their mind as well as keeping the so-called rescuer safe and relatively calm. <<

True.

From:

see_also_friend

>>…people make different choices.<<

…people sure do have some weird hangups and biases. Moral or otherwise.

>>Yikes.<<

Another part of it is also that the brain/body connection kind of…weakens? Like an atrophied muscle. That’s in grown adults with fully formed brains. The kids with undeveloped brains also have problems when their connections don’t form. In extreme cases, (infested from birth) ,this equals a persistent vegetative state.

>>True.
I'll add:<<

I’m tempted to draft a mock DSM entry.

>>Yeah, that can happen.<<

Re: decision-making, at least one involved the ex-slave defaulting even minor decisions to their person.* Fortunately the dynamic was more akin to a nurturing caretaker/parental role than ‘authoritarian owner.’ (And their person was very-but-calmly exasperated, since they’d been trying to work on fixing the choice paralysis.)

>>Just because America claims to be a good place to live, doesn't mean it actually is.<<

I’m not trying to say it is good, I’m trying to say that it is still better than some other times in our history or places in the world today. The examples were meant to be good, middling and bad.

I /like/ that I can have a bank account and won’t get shot for talking in public or casually sexually assaulted by my boss – but that doesn’t prohibit me from wanting stuff to be better.

>>Interestingly, Muslim women…<<

Different things will seem oppressive to different people. I don’t always like everything about my own culture…but others aren’t perfect either.

>>Dude, you do not want to walk into that relationship without knowing exactly what you are getting into.<<

True. Still, I can understand how the Culture Clash by way of having to operate under an entirely different ruleset would be irritating.

>> I have thoughts on how this affects the P-Earth demographics and marriage dynamics… <<

Specifically :

Guys with Quaker values (i.e. ‘respect women’) will probably be in high demand among women who like that sort of thing. This will also apply to bicultural hawks…and then other guys will be jealous, perhaps violently so.

Meanwhile, you’d have a higher percentage of single and ‘single’ [Boston marriage] women, both because of the higher competition, and folks who prefer the fewer restrictions and lack of forced marriages.

Also, the Quakers being, essentially, caregiver brooding-hens will transmit the cultural values very fast, since the creche-raised kids will kind of…imprint on the cultural trappings.

Haven’t figured out the all the demographics of the pirates, though!

>>It would probably baffle the pirates, whose dangerous lifestyle means they have to grab what pleasure they can while they can.<<

Yes, I imagined something would come up in out pirate/CO medic romance we were discussing awhile back. Narratively speaking, the discussion around that would be a good way to highlight resolution of cultural differences, resolution of complex problems, and nonsexual pair-bonding activities.

That said, not all [modern] Quakers are prudes...though people may have been fussier in the past. : Modern references :
https://www.friendsjournal.org/from-a-quaker-view-of-sex/ https://www.friendsjournal.org/quaker-sex-sexuality-jesus/

…and one for sex work :
https://www.friendsjournal.org/loving-the-difficult-people-tales-from-a-phone-sex-operator/

>>That could work.<<

You’d need something complicated enough to draw in a lot of allies. …hmm, could also add in the pickpocket’s trick where the ‘loot’ is handed off quickly.

>> Modern people are squeamish that way.<<

People are good at finding loopholes to do stuff they aren’t supposed to be allowed to do. Draft, prison labor, working visas [indenture], internships, wage slavery, some abuse dynamics…

>>Shiv cares about himself and people he likes, or groups that he likes.<<

True of most people.

>>He is indifferent to most people…<<

Which makes him safer/more appealing than a lot of other cisgender white guys, unfortunately.

…depressingly, I sometimes wonder if some of the POC guys I know are nice(r) to me in part because they are intimidated by me / reliant on my goodwill as a white woman, though it may occasionally involve some other intersectionality/power dynamics as well.

It’s kind of sad to think that maybe I’m only ‘nice’ by way of comparison to jerks. :(

>>…and outright hostile to some groups, such as cops.

…but he usually prefers to be left alone and doesn’t go out of his way to pick a fight.

>>But the more intimate the contact, the harder it gets to shield.<<

So attacking someone with empathy – even to help them – would likely feel like self-mutilation (which ties back into subclinical empathy and the correlation with & pacifist tendencies.)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Re: decision-making, at least one involved the ex-slave defaulting even minor decisions to their person.* Fortunately the dynamic was more akin to a nurturing caretaker/parental role than ‘authoritarian owner.’ (And their person was very-but-calmly exasperated, since they’d been trying to work on fixing the choice paralysis.) <<

It wasn't just once, it was a known failure mode that various people wrote about at that time. It was worst in slaves who were freed, such as by an owner's will, and widest with the Emancipation Proclamation. It was less common in slaves who had the determination to run away, but even they sometimes struggled when they realized how much freedom requires and how unprepared they were for all those choices.

>> Different things will seem oppressive to different people.<<

True, which could make for interesting debates between Quakers and pirates. The most obvious is that pirates tend to be loud and would often find Silence oppressive.

>> I don’t always like everything about my own culture…but others aren’t perfect either.<<

Nobody's perfect, but some cultures objectively do a better job of respecting and supporting their citizens. On the other hoof, it's not always obvious. People think of pirates as barbaric, but they had democracy and possibly the first work-injury insurance!

>> Guys with Quaker values (i.e. ‘respect women’) will probably be in high demand among women who like that sort of thing. This will also apply to bicultural hawks…and then other guys will be jealous, perhaps violently so.<<

Yeah, that sounds about right.

>> Meanwhile, you’d have a higher percentage of single and ‘single’ [Boston marriage] women, both because of the higher competition, and folks who prefer the fewer restrictions and lack of forced marriages.<<

Pirates often avoided marriage because they loathed restrictions and loved freedom, thus they had a lot of unconventional relationships. It wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of the prostitutes having their best friend as a lifepartner instead of a man, especially if they wanted to keep and raise children conceived from clients.

>>Also, the Quakers being, essentially, caregiver brooding-hens will transmit the cultural values very fast, since the creche-raised kids will kind of…imprint on the cultural trappings.<<

Nailed it. Even the kids who leave because it doesn't suit them will know how Quakers think and function.

>> Haven’t figured out the all the demographics of the pirates, though! <<

It's a mishmash, but some salient points:

* Most were people who at some point became unable to tolerate the restrictions of conventional society.

* Many were escaped slaves or indentured servants. Even here there are multiple references to freeing the victims on slave ships, and that's more common in P-Earth.

* A few were forced into it, especially medics, navigators, or other rare experts kidnapped from raided vessels.

* Men were the vast majority in local-Earth, still a majority but less overwhelming in P-Earth. For women, piracy offered a rare opportunity to claim agency over their own lives. However, that's just the ones we know about because they lived openly as women -- there were likely more who concealed it and presented as male, were never discovered, and thus passed unknown.

* Pirates were very ethnically diverse, as port cities also tend to be. They included a lot from the major European maritime nations (Dutch, British, French, Spanish) but also bits from anywhere those ships stopped, especially if they conscripted local workers (see above re: escapees).

* They were also diverse in class. Officers tended to be European because they had access to more education and in fact included a lot of people who fled society's restrictions or abhorrent orders or "Why don't you settle down and marry a nice girl?" etc. But there were also plenty of laborers, the occasional middle class like successful traders, former slaves, and so on.

* They spoke a huge variety of languages. The most common were the maritime ones of the time such as Dutch, English, French, and Spanish; but many pirates picked up extras, and it was the mixing of different languages in ports that led to all the famous Caribbean pidgin and then creole languages. Often the captain would set the official language of a given ship, but others voted on it, some were polyglot vessels, and it wasn't rare to have someone who didn't speak a language anyone else actually knew and they just got by with pointing.

I hope this helps.

>>Yes, I imagined something would come up in out pirate/CO medic romance we were discussing awhile back. Narratively speaking, the discussion around that would be a good way to highlight resolution of cultural differences, resolution of complex problems, and nonsexual pair-bonding activities.<<

Agreed.

>> That said, not all [modern] Quakers are prudes...though people may have been fussier in the past. <<

It pretty much has to be a range. The inland Quakers can afford to be more conservative or even prudish in that regard. But they wouldn't tolerate being around pirates. This will eventually lead to some hilarious encounters when pirates who know Friends travel upriver and habitually swing by the local Meetinghouse to look for allies and local knowledge. Because they'd be used to the much more flexible Caribbean Quakers.

>>You’d need something complicated enough to draw in a lot of allies. …hmm, could also add in the pickpocket’s trick where the ‘loot’ is handed off quickly.<<

Yep, pirate children often run in packs through the port cities, raiding and pillaging. The takers immediately hand off the loot to the younger members who are smaller, fast on their feet, and good at hiding. This is then secreted in caches to be retrieved later.

>>People are good at finding loopholes to do stuff they aren’t supposed to be allowed to do. Draft, prison labor, working visas [indenture], internships, wage slavery, some abuse dynamics…<<

True.

>> …depressingly, I sometimes wonder if some of the POC guys I know are nice(r) to me in part because they are intimidated by me / reliant on my goodwill as a white woman, though it may occasionally involve some other intersectionality/power dynamics as well. <<

That can happen. But if they're around me enough -- and it doesn't take particularly long -- something typically happens to reveal that I look white but don't really match the White Culture. And that's why some of the local shopkeepers and restaurant staff latch onto us so hard.

>> It’s kind of sad to think that maybe I’m only ‘nice’ by way of comparison to jerks. :(

Demonstrably false. You care about people. You go out of your way to help. You stand by your values in a world that really doesn't match them. You respect other cultures as equally valid. You are consistently polite. That's pretty much the core of nice.

>> …but he usually prefers to be left alone and doesn’t go out of his way to pick a fight. <<

It's true that Shiv prefers to be left alone, and rarely starts an actual fight. But he certainly will slit a cop's shoelaces or tires just for being a cop.

>>So attacking someone with empathy – even to help them – would likely feel like self-mutilation (which ties back into subclinical empathy and the correlation with & pacifist tendencies.)<<

It can. Shielding and contact-spillover do vary across individuals. Most Terramagne telepaths are mentally fastidious, but then there's Nanette who really is not. As a rule, though, empaths, telepaths, and healers all tend to be pacifists -- but by the same premise, they are not safe to attack because that spillover can be involuntary.

From:

see_also_friend

>>It wasn't just once,...<<

Specifically one of the two fanfics I was referencing.

>>... how unprepared they were for all those choices.<<

I've heard of that in various modern dynamics…
:/

>> …would often find Silence oppressive.<<

…and the other way around, too.

I have heard of walking Meetings (don’t recall if there is an official name.) Shakers used to dance as a form of worship… I suspect they’ll eventually have a wider of options.

Also, unless they need to be involved in the organization of a Meeting, they can skip attending. Later on, bicultural folks can go. But at first it would be tricky.

Re: fussing : I can also see people discussing about brothels as oppression...

>>…democracy and possibly the first work-injury insurance!<>Pirates often avoided marriage because they loathed restrictions and loved freedom,...<<

They’d probably have more of an extended-community model of childcare. The ‘cat colony,’ model gives a different sort of freedom than a marital-fidelity pair bond.

>>...to see a lot of the prostitutes having their best friend as a lifepartner instead of a man,...<<

Relationships with people like yourself are easier. Also, husbands can be… complicated at the best of times. (Also, if the men usually aren’t around…)

>>Nailed it. Even the kids who leave because it doesn't suit...<<

They'll also carry individual skills, which might be useful in different contexts.

>>...unable to tolerate the restrictions of conventional society.<<

So, they'll aggregate some disabilities, probably have a higher than mainstream number of queerfolk (though mostly guys), and skew towards adventurous-tolerant sorts.

>>* A few were forced into it,...<<

P-Earth will have a problem from about 1690-1710ish with people trying to steal school graduates.

>>...still a majority but less overwhelming in P-Earth.<<

I don't think we'll see a ship with more than 1/3 of the crew as women, unless someone has a deliberately women-majority crew. Similarly, I'm guesstimateing that the low end would be 1 in 20 (or less), though some may be passing as men. Passing will be less required over time.

Also, having more women on the crews will cause more conflicts, (jealousy) and possibly change the dynamic (some men will either try to protect or take advantage of women in ways they don’t with other men.) Plus, babies, because birth control in this era sucked.

>>* Pirates were very ethnically diverse, as port cities also tend to be. <<

So, darker skin and more variety than in an upper-class party (or some spaces in our time/Earth.) Probably more variability in fashion, too, especially later.

>>* They were also diverse in class. Officers tended to be European...<<

...which will gradually be less of a thing after 1700, since education will be more freely available. This will clash with wider society.

>>...the occasional middle class like successful traders...<<

A good quartermaster?

>>I hope this helps.<<

I'm not calculating it out mathematically, but more idly pondering.

>>It pretty much has to be a range.<<
>>But they wouldn't tolerate being around pirates.<>…swing by the local Meetinghouse to look for allies and local knowledge.<<

If they’re planning to network, they’d do well to carry some sort of a letter of introduction*, but they’d need to be involved in a Quaker community first.
*I don’t recall the official term right now.

If they’re just wandering by, they might be able to send the most Quaker-fluent person in to discuss, but still might not have much luck.

>>Because they'd be used to the much more flexible Caribbean Quakers.<<

Also, consider if the two groups are different enough to split over doctrine/behavior. Once you have different factions, it changes the group(s) dynamics.

>>Yep, pirate children...<>Demonstrably false. / That's pretty much the core of nice.<<

Thanks. I was having a bad day and this cheered me up a bit.

>>… certainly will slit a cop's shoelaces or tires just for being a cop.<<

Hunh, I’ve usually seen him trying to avoid people he doesn’t like, unless they’ve already pissed him off by being rude or jerkish or something.

>>…then there's Nanette who really is not.<<

She still has some reservations. I've only seen her mess with people's minds consensually or as a way of dealing with a threat...very different than that creepy guy.

And Moderato only used his powers in combat when someone dying was the alternative.

>>As a rule, though, empaths, telepaths, and healers all tend to be pacifists...<<

Chicken-or-egg problem : b/c powers or culture? (Probably both.)

>>..that spillover can be involuntary.<<

Attacking an empath could give one self-induced PTSD from the backlash.

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