Philosophical Questions: Improvement
Oct. 26th, 2024 12:46 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithPeople have expressed interest in deep topics, so this list focuses on philosophical questions.
Are people ethically obligated to improve themselves?
No. What you do with your own life, learning, body, etc. is your free choice. It is both ethical and advisable to improve yourself, but you don't have to. Maybe you're happy the way you are, maybe you don't have the resources for self-improvement, whatever. Don't should on yourself.
Note that this is a general parameter. Some ethical systems may place additional requirements on people who choose to follow them -- in which case, this comes under "choosing to improve yourself."
Are people ethically obligated to improve themselves?
No. What you do with your own life, learning, body, etc. is your free choice. It is both ethical and advisable to improve yourself, but you don't have to. Maybe you're happy the way you are, maybe you don't have the resources for self-improvement, whatever. Don't should on yourself.
Note that this is a general parameter. Some ethical systems may place additional requirements on people who choose to follow them -- in which case, this comes under "choosing to improve yourself."
(no subject)
Date: 2024-10-26 06:26 pm (UTC)That said, I do tend to see actual self-improvement attempts as ethically positive, not to mention part of our innate biological wiring. (Just watch a child enthusiastically increasing their knowledge and abilities.) But it's absolutely not an obligation. And sometimes simply coping is more than enough to deal with. Or you simply have other priorities. (But of course this last paragraph is pretty much what you already said.)
Thoughts
Date: 2024-10-26 07:12 pm (UTC)That's true, and I hadn't thought of it. Thank you for adding this.
>> The "improvement" is of course defined by the oppressor, not the person who'll supposedly benefit. <<
But then it is not self improvement, and because it is meant to benefit someone else, often not improvment at all. Common example: neuroprivileged people make more and more demands of neuroppressed people until the neuroppressed people break down (e.g. autistic burnout) and then are blamed for "failing to perform." The attempt to keep up with shifting goalposts wrecks physical and mental health.
Something I've noticed about Terramagne is how often they offer options to people -- like a flyer in Rutledge after the Big One: "Do you feel like your life is spinning out of control? Here are some things you can control" and then a list of workshops like meditation to control your mind, yoga to control your body, craft or building classes to control specific tools, bicycle lessons, etc. that people were free to choose anything they thought would help them regain a bit of agency.
Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-26 07:11 pm (UTC)However, I'd no more suggest that for my neighbor, best friend, the bus driver for my last ride, or a random stranger on the street, than I would attempt to vote on their behalf.
Why? Because I understand that individuals are not clones. Melatonin does nothing for me but make me feel tired. Magnesium, however, makes me drop to sleep in less than twenty minutes. Should I run around trying to get a law passed so that all adults over the age of 25 must take a magnesium supplement? Absolutely not, because one size does NOT fit all.
But that's actually hiding the core of the issue: who decides such a crucial element of everyday life? This isn't a traffic regulation or a safety law. Even dietary guidelines are exactly that, GUIDELINES.
It's the "Would you like a cup of tea?" question, writ large.
Too few people SEE that, though.
I believe more in the right of self-determinism than I do in any religion.
Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-27 09:50 am (UTC)It's all about agency.
>> This isn't a traffic regulation or a safety law. Even dietary guidelines are exactly that, GUIDELINES.<<
If you're making your own choices, yes. If somebody else makes them for you, then you're stuck with that -- and it's usually based on yet another person's set of rules.
>>Too few people SEE that, though.<<
Sadly so.
>> I believe more in the right of self-determinism than I do in any religion.<<
One of mine includes the principle, "Do as thou wilt."
Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-27 02:39 pm (UTC)It's like our American society proclaims individuality as an ideal and an the perfect freedom on one hand, and on the other, the cogs and gears of everyday life SMASH individualism out of its citizens, starting before they're born.
Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-27 05:37 pm (UTC)That's one version. There are others, including:
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" and "Love is the Law; Love under Will."
And modern witches often shorten it to "Harm none," which is more properly a Buddhist or Jainist principle. I've never seen a witch refuse to eat root vegetables because harvesting them kills the plant and tiny creatures in the soil. (Do Jains practice no-till agriculture? It seems like something they would endorse.)
>> It's like our American society proclaims individuality as an ideal and an the perfect freedom on one hand, and on the other, the cogs and gears of everyday life SMASH individualism out of its citizens, starting before they're born.<<
That's true. But then they also pretend to admire intelligence while abusing geeks, creativity, while cutting art programs, and democracy while practicing plutocracy.
... this country is delusional. O_O
Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-27 06:51 pm (UTC)To be able to improve myself, I have to see my flaws accurately. I sometimes do, and that's when I have the most success in improving myself.
Writ on a national scale... We are hanging off the edge of a cliff by holding onto a single bamboo shoot.
Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-28 09:49 am (UTC)Exactly. And other people usually can't, they just focus on something that annoys them. It typically takes a teacher of a particular thing to spot someone else's genuine flaws or mistakes, like a music teacher knowing when you're off tempo and explaining how to fix that.
>> Writ on a national scale... We are hanging off the edge of a cliff by holding onto a single bamboo shoot.<<
Painfully true.
Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-29 04:56 am (UTC)Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-29 06:05 am (UTC)Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-29 04:58 pm (UTC)Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-10-30 06:00 am (UTC)I tend to take things at face value ...
>> Which makes it incredibly annoying when they say something but mean something else <<
... but other people do this so routinely, I just don't want to be around them. I am not interested in trying to decode their backwards talk.
>> (i.e. "You have the freedom to choose, but you can only choose what I approve of.") <<
That's just gaslighting. I have a tendency to force them to say it in the open, revealing their lies. It makes everyone else uncomfortable. Eh, cockroaches can't stand daylight.
Re: Self-Improvement
Date: 2024-11-04 06:30 pm (UTC)It's also annoying if you do what they want and then they whine about it. Be careful what you wish for and all that.
>>That's just gaslighting.<<
Well, I figured it was screwy logic when... I must have been about 13, I think? If democracy is best, then a we shouldn't have forced Panama to build the Panama canal.
(no subject)
Date: 2024-10-27 03:16 am (UTC)I think like a lot of things, it comes to the personal. My ethics include 'leaving the world a better place' and one way I can work on that is by working to be more tolerant, less reactive -- which can be interpreted as 'improving' myself. But my ethics don't oblige other people to improve themselves. And aiming to improve oneself is not a requirement for me to value a person, or time spent in that person's company.
Yes ...
Date: 2024-10-27 08:01 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2024-10-29 05:03 am (UTC)More generally, I think people can do what they want /as long as it doesn't hurt anyone/.
Well ...
Date: 2024-10-29 06:01 am (UTC)https://add.org/adhd-burnout/
https://theautisticadvocate.com/an-autistic-burnout/
As someone else says, it matters who decides what "improvement" means, whether it is worth the effort, and how to go about it.
Re: Well ...
Date: 2024-10-29 05:55 pm (UTC)Still, I don't think it is bad for people to expect parents/alloparents to try and teach their kids stuff like "Don't throw rocks at people," (& I /do/ think it is bad idea to force kids to make eye contact, spend time with people they are uncomfortable with, etc.)
Socially, it's a bit of a back-and-forth: what am I okay with, what are you okay with, what does-or-will work for both of us?
Re: Well ...
Date: 2024-10-30 06:08 am (UTC)I think it's good to try. I don't think it's good to demand that people meet social expectations in order to be allowed into society and treated like human beings, and that is what usually happens. You have to be able to speak. You have to be either normal, or able to fake normal. Or people feel free to abuse you.
>> (& I /do/ think it is bad idea to force kids to make eye contact, spend time with people they are uncomfortable with, etc.) <<
Agreed. Because it teaches them that other people are vicious predators, and who wants to be around assholes?
>> Socially, it's a bit of a back-and-forth: what am I okay with, what are you okay with, what does-or-will work for both of us? <<
That is much more sensible.
Re: Well ...
Date: 2024-11-04 06:53 pm (UTC)In my experience you usually encourage toddlers (and folk in similar developmental phases) barring safety rules (which should be explained if time and communication issues allow).
>>...in order to be allowed into society and treated like human beings,...<<
You are still a person, regardless of behavior.
Hence my "I'll do what I can, you do what you can, let's see what we can figure out," attitude.
Re: Well ...
Date: 2024-11-04 08:01 pm (UTC)That's a good approach.
One thing I like about Terramagne is that they acknowledge not everyone can do everything. After you've made a reasonable attempt and haven't learned to do a thing -- or learned a specific reason why you can't do it, like how severe dyslexia can preclude reading -- then you're entitled to switch to something else. So for instance, around high school or college level, "Math Alternatives" appears so you can learn some simplified workarounds, how to hire a bookkeeper, etc.
>>You are still a person, regardless of behavior.
Hence my "I'll do what I can, you do what you can, let's see what we can figure out," attitude.<<
The world needs more people like you.
Re: Well ...
Date: 2024-11-05 01:31 am (UTC)Thanks!
Most verbal kids that I know can reasonably understand things like "Pick up your toys so no-one steps on them," and "We don't eat on the floor because it makes a mess."
Preverbal or nonverbal... depends on what else is going on in there. Maybe there's alternate communication that works, maybe you have to communicate abstractly or model behavior, maybe you have to change the options or environment.
Adults usually respond to calm and appropriately-simpilified-to-current-state explanations, too. The only real differences are that a) the adult is more likely to have preexisting relevant experience to draw on, and b) adults will usually react badly to any sort of babytalk.
>>The world needs more people like you.<<
Thanks.
It's good to hear that.
It's kind of weird to me that most people /don't/ think this way.
Re: Well ...
Date: 2024-11-05 04:28 am (UTC)Logic is a good parenting technique.
>> Preverbal or nonverbal... depends on what else is going on in there. Maybe there's alternate communication that works, maybe you have to communicate abstractly or model behavior, maybe you have to change the options or environment.<<
This world needs a lot more "change the environment, not the person." Just think how much better we'd do by using Montessori methods to address disability. A child can't lift a heavy pitcher? Don't pour for them, provide a smaller pitcher and/or lighter material so they can handle it. They can't reach things? Move the things lower and/or provide a stepstool. The prepared environment enables maximum learning and independence.
I have a couple of favorite principles:
"Find a way to make it do what you want it to do while letting it do what it wants to do." (engineering)
"Make it easy to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing." (animal training)
>>It's kind of weird to me that most people /don't/ think this way.<<
It's weird to me too. This society was never a good fit for me and is getting rapidly worse. I wind up relying on my alien cultures training a lot. But I'm just tired of dealing with this shit. I'd rather stay home where, if I tell the birds to calm down and wait for me to finish filling the feeder, most of them understand me.
Re: Well ...
Date: 2024-11-05 01:47 pm (UTC)Alloparenting on my case but yeah. (Only works well if the communication abilities are high enough though.)
>>"Make it easy to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing." (animal training)<<
I did a winnowed-down choices thing just last week, but since the kids were big enough, I explained why the selection needed limiting, and why the things I'd removed weren't options.
>>It's weird to me too. This society was never a good fit for me and is getting rapidly worse.<<
Not sure how much is innate, acquired or actually taught, but even as a kid I was often very concerned about other people.
While I was mostly a good fit, I was introverted [or maybe shy?] and asynchronous enough that people didn't always know what to do with me.
At least there's more info on introvert socialization now that my niblings are sometimes displaying similar traits?