Tamarian Vocabulary

[ysabetwordsmith]

Today we watched Star Trek: Lower Decks season 2,episode 2, "Kayshon, His Eyes Open." One of the new characters is Kayshon, a Tamarian. This harks back to my favorite Star Trek episode of all time, "Darmok," which features the Tamarian race, who speak in metaphors.

Spoiler ahead ...

Based on a line one of the other characters said, we now have what is bound to become the Tamarian term for "complete clusterfuck" ...

Kayshon, when he became a puppet.

That would make such an awesome T-shirt. Or you know, if someone actually makes a Kayshon puppet, stick a sign on him. :D

I'm happy, because in this world, I can always use a new way to say "complete clusterfuck."

Comments

Hell yes!!!

[arthur_p_dent]

The "Darmok" episode of TNG is easily one of the best Trek episodes of all time. Learning how to communicate with an alien species was rarely focused on - far too often the Universal Translator bridged that gap.

I would sooooo wear a "Kayshon, when he became a puppet" t-shirt. I might even make it my screen saver at work - talk about the epitome of a complete clusterfuck... =]

Re: Hell yes!!!

[(Anonymous)]

...I want more stories in general that avert the Translator Microbes trope. There's so much potential in that!

Re: Hell yes!!!

[ysabetwordsmith]

Suzette Haden Elgin said, "Writers will put their characters through any torment except learning a foreign language."

I said, "But that's one of my favorite plots!" Xenolinguistics is a favorite topic, and it usually involves someone trying to hack some other species' language.

Also, I have oopsed a book more than once while taking notes for a new conlang.

Feel free to prompt me for this anytime.

Re: Hell yes!!!

[(Anonymous)]

I'm playing with the idea in a story - basically, when the viewpoint character can't understand the speaker, Translation Convention uses a languague other than English.

So, there's a couple languague-learning scenes that take awhile to convey such simple concepts as "no touchey", one where the viewpoint person can tell the conversation is repeating in a way that is concerning [b/c speaker has a head injury] even when she can't understand most of it, people having trouble solving problems because of languague/culture barriers, etc.

Oh, and several people need Translator Buddies, not all of whom are neccesarily billingual.

Yes this last bit is Truth in Television, and also a nice translator Buddy can often become a bit of a security blanket. Sincere/nice attempts at communication can be as interesting as free food to a person who has been having trouble meeting that particular need.

Re: Hell yes!!!

[ysabetwordsmith]

That sounds well done.

One thing I liked about Lower Decks was that some of the other characters filled in terms for Kayshon, like they would with any other language. That means they knew enough about Tamarian to guess what he was trying to say or to understand. So very Starfleet. <3

Re: Hell yes!!!

[(Anonymous)]

>>That sounds well done.<<

I actually got the ide from a comic, which differentiated the languagues with little symbols in the speech bubbles.

This is just shifting it to a slightly different expression in written form.

Plus it gives me a chance to play around with different Languague Barrier/languague learning concepts.

...I mean, how often do we see something like "Are you going to call the...Justice League?" because someone learned from bootleg cartoons and doesn't know the word for 'police'?

Or someone codeswitching to a visual language, because someone in the room had a migraine, or needs to argue with a sibling while their mouth is full, or whatever?

And there's the classic of mashing together at least two languagues and hand gestures...or dragging the most qualified (yet still terribly underqualified and has no clue what they're doing) Closest Thing We've Got to interpret.

And sometimes you do have to bring your own Translator Buddy places. And if you annoy them, it gets very expensive to find a replacement!

Re: Hell yes!!!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> The "Darmok" episode of TNG is easily one of the best Trek episodes of all time. Learning how to communicate with an alien species was rarely focused on - far too often the Universal Translator bridged that gap. <<

In which case, it's written by someone who understands neither technology, translation, linguistics, nor psychology.

Sure you can build a Universal Translator. Have you seen Google Translate? Imagine relying on that in a trade negotiation, or Black Gods help us, in a first contact.

Basically, you have one of two problems, the first being by far the most common, whether you translating using science or magic:
1) It only sort of works, and you have glitches due to inaccuracies or differences of perspective in translation.
2) It works entirely too well, and runs a risk of brain damage or psychological injury due to understanding things the victim was not equipped to handle.

I have seen "differences of perspective in translation" written out at least twice in stories, often with hilarious results as the hapless protagonist attempts to figure out which suggested meaning he should use.

>> I would sooooo wear a "Kayshon, when he became a puppet" t-shirt. I might even make it my screen saver at work - talk about the epitome of a complete clusterfuck... =]

Oh now that's a better idea. It would make a great screensaver, or an icon (preferably a two-image one with his original "Kayshon..." and then his puppet appearance "...when he became a puppet"). Because the cartoon already exists in screen format, all someone would have to do is make a screencap and add a caption. Fairly easy, though alas, not skills I possess myself.

Re: Hell yes!!!

[(Anonymous)]

>>Have you seen Google Translate? Imagine relying on that in a trade negotiation, or Black Gods help us, in a first contact.<<

When using Google Translate, I reccomend always double checking that the computer 'heard' you correctly.

Even then, I used to have a noise I'd use to convey "My tech is being incomprehensible again." (I was working with the same people long enough to work out a few onomotopeia-and-hand-signals to compensate for the languague barriers in play.)

Plus Google translate may miss less-common words or names, and that is assuming the languague is programmed in already.

Still, overall translation programs are a wonderful achievement. We just have to remember their limitations, in order to get the best use of them.

...and remember that they aren't always the best tool to use in every situation.

>>2) It works entirely too well, and runs a risk of brain damage or psychological injury due to understanding things the victim was not equipped to handle.<<

The only example I've seen is learning nonhumanoid languages via Interface in the Native Tongue books, but that is an issue with the languague not a translator.

...though letting someone hook themself into a wetware translator for an incompatible languague sounds like a fantastic example of malicious compliance.

And between different artlangs and languague modalities, there would be a lot of opportunities to find something they would be anything from irritating to useless to antimatter-bomb destructive.

>>I have seen "differences of perspective in translation" written out at least twice in stories, often with hilarious results as the hapless protagonist attempts to figure out which suggested meaning he should use.<<

Laadan: /Which/ type of angry is Bob today, and how did Alice know?

Re: Hell yes!!!

[(Anonymous)]

>>Basically, you have one of two problems,...<<

Thought of a third one: even with a Universal Translator, people may not understand or believe each other. Just look at how persistently clueless some human men are about menstruation - even though many of us use the same languague:
- its psychosomatic
- "Well, you can just hold it / turn it off"
- assuming tampons are something other than fancy bandages
- "How dare you forget to start your period? Don't you know how important it is to do it on time?"
- this conversation: "Are you menstruating?" "No." "Are you sure?" " >:[ "

Honestly, imagine those conversations complicated by:
- breeding season,
- requiring cannibalism (nurse logs, anyone?)
- anything involving Interspecies Romance, and about 3/4ths of anything involving an Interspecies Friendship
- limited senses (i.e. not understanding the color words for different colors of ultraviolet/infrared)
- neurotypicality in humans being very different than neurotypicality in the alien species (see cats)
- the good old standby of "not believing the obvious thing, then being horrified by it when it happens"

Re: Hell yes!!!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Thought of a third one: even with a Universal Translator, people may not understand or believe each other. <<

Well, that's an issue with any translation that isn't intrusive to the point of dangerous (see Problem 2).

>>assuming tampons are something other than fancy bandages<<

One memorable article I read about an inappropriate business conversation involved a woman having to explain menstruation and tampons to a man at work. "He basically thought they were dildos." >_<

>> - breeding season,<<

Almost certain to occur, as humanity's always-in-season aspect is very uncommon.

>> - requiring cannibalism (nurse logs, anyone?) <<

To me, that's a bizarrely human perspective. I think of it as being normal for the species to raise children after dying. Think how much happier their funerals would be. "Okay, everybody with a baby, come up and plant them on Grandma."

>> - anything involving Interspecies Romance, and about 3/4ths of anything involving an Interspecies Friendship <<

Shall we indulge in rishathra?

Re: Hell yes!!!

[(Anonymous)]

>>Well, that's an issue with any translation that isn't intrusive to the point of dangerous (see Problem 2).<<

There's a reason I like to spend time with people who are good communicators...and especially ones who believe me about my subjective experiences.

>>One memorable article I read about an inappropriate business conversation involved a woman having to explain menstruation and tampons to a man at work. "He basically thought they were dildos." >_< <<

And the guy who thought menstruating at work was time theft - he thought we could "turn it off" at work.

And the guy who thought ectopic pregnancies could be re-implanted.

>>Almost certain to occur, as humanity's always-in-season aspect is very uncommon.<<

If an alien species had a season for one gender, and the other gender was interested based on the existance of a libido in their partner, I could see the second gender being rather...interested...in humans. Likely to the annoyance of alien Moral Guardians and the humans involved. "Dammit, I'm a person not a sex toy!"

There was a good example I read once where a (accidentally slightly drunk) pansexual human woman is explaining human sexuality and reproduction to a new alien friend (whose species/culture doesn't pairbond and only engages in procreative sex and communally raises the kids). The alien is not quite comfortable with birth control/abortion, but acknowledges they are better than neglecting a child, but is really weirded out by the idea that her human friend would theoretically be interested in 'fooling around' to bond. (Human explains she wouldn't do anything with a non-consenting partner, and she wouldn't do anything anyway because in this setting it wouldn't be safe for the nonhuman partner.) Oh and human also apologizes for her uncomftorable drunken ramblings later.

>>"Okay, everybody with a baby, come up and plant them on Grandma."<<

Sounds like a nice funeral.

>>Shall we indulge in rishathra?<<

There are extant examples that don't match the humanoid example. (I've heard of humans and dolphins trying, and some birds will attempt to mate with humans.)

In fantasy/scifi ...well, Aldera and Dak Hamee from Animorphs weren't humanoid, and they weren't the same body configuration as each other when they fell in love, though she could shapeshift.

Any human/centaur relationship in any work would count as well, and ditto for merfolk.

Also, I imagine that between different-species sexuality and different-species physiology, it is entirely possible that it might take a good long while to work out something that satisfies both partners (and even then, it might not count as either species' definition of sex, assuming they have that concept to start with.)

For example, a species that has no sex drive might consider human-style-sexual activity as a form of massage. Still good for bonding, but a different concept.

Another example might involve a species that determines gender by recital fighting - which would seem odd to human partner, while our typically-sessile genders would seem odd to the alien, and that is before getting into compatibility of organs or psychological and social effects.

And other species might prioritize different bonding. Something like lionesses or beluga would likely prioritize a platonic siblinghood over a sex partner, and consider pairbonding wierd.

...I think I read one story that Reconstructed the idea by developing a free-love society where you could pair up with whoever you want, but since a lot of partners were sexually incompatible*, it was good manners to set your partner up with compatible flings, if they were into that.
*main example were a humanoid guy and a humanoid ace/agender-except-in-breeding-season cat person. (Even in season, attempting sex would likely have lethal results.)
They were coraising the humanoid's biological kid, who considered them both to be her parents, but a lot of people in that society could also adopt orphans.