ysabetwordsmith | Did early humans hibernate?

An archaeological find of Neanderthal bones with interrupted growth suggests that they may have hibernated. This raises a couple of interesting points:

* As modern Homo sapiens have remnant genes from several relative branches, including Neanderthals, some people may have the genes that enabled ancestors to hibernate or otherwise reduce activity in winter.

* I would love to look for genetic similarities among people with Seasonal Affective Disorder, and possibly also seasonal overeating, to see if there are overlaps between them -- and what their percentage of Neanderthal genes is. Possibly we're not looking at disorders, but rather at vestigial features that are bothersome at low levels.

* If the hibernation genes remain in some portion of the population, then perhaps we could learn to control those genes, which would be great for SAD sufferers ... and for spaceflight. However, it could create awkward jealousies if only some people had the latent ability to hibernate on long spaceflights and others did not. That's a war and/or speciation waiting to happen. I don't think I've seen anyone write it, though.

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Crossposts: https://ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com/6056001.html

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From:

dewline

I'd be surprised to find that no one has approached that topic yet, to be honest. Seems like the sort of topic that someone has already approached in one or another of the anthology magazines, however poorly, across the decades.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Hibernation, or "sleeper ships," has been a standard form of space travel posited in science fiction.

Speciation, and divergences based on only a few people being able to do an important thing, are also common.

What I haven't seen is specifically the idea of some humans having a latent hibernation potential that allows them, and only them, to use sleeper ships. Someone may well have written it, but it's not a common motif like the other components.

I did see one very well rendered story in which fat people were the ones who qualified for space travel, along similar lines as Polynesian wayfarers.

From:

dewline

Polynesians, Inuit maybe...?

I'd be interested to see such stories written by such authors. They'd have an interesting set of perspectives on that idea, regardless of whether they like the idea or not.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Those are excellent ideas.

I did a northerly set of characters once, in "The Hand of Sedna."

From: (Anonymous)

I once read a fantasy story where a minor character was discouraged from courting an adopted-into-the-culture character for this reason.

The adopted guy had a fire elemental affinity in the Arctic, which almost killed him during his first polar winter (elementary age), and in later years caused him to essentially hibernate.

While the prospective suitor was fine with having a husband who would be out of it for several months each winter, the collective could not afford the fact that any infants with a fire affinity would be unable to survive the winter.

And yeah, they really couldn't afford to lose kids to anything remotely preventable.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Ouch. That's a logical concern, though.

*ponder* Pair up for affection, have only nonprocreative sex, and tap someone else to father the woman's children.

From: (Anonymous)

Not sure if that was a culturally-acceptable option. (Also, they were still a few years away from being marrying age...and then adopted and sibs had to leave on a save the world quest.)

From:

eldriwolf

I had not thought to look at other hominids!
But "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" Has been my explanation for SAD for Years now. Nature does not care if you are 'happy', just that you survive. Burrowing under the furs, for a day or so, instead of going out, and freezing in the snow, makes excellent survival sense.
Saves calories.
Does not have to be full-on torpor, just "don'wanna!"
and nobody to guilt trip you for 'not being productive'.

...*If* Bigfoot exists, they might do the 'sleep as much as you can', thing, too...

Edited (Auto incorrect needed fixing.) Date: 2021-01-14 09:57 pm (UTC)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I had not thought to look at other hominids! <<

Turns out, if you take a close look at hominid DNA, it's living proof that people will screw anything that moves -- and did so often enough to leave widespread traces, which means they did it A LOT. Homo sapiens includes traces of Neanderthal, Denisovan, and at least one other species we haven't even pinned down yet. See Beneath the Family Tree on my Serial Poetry page for a series inspired by hominid history.

>> But "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" Has been my explanation for SAD for Years now. <<

Its current incarnation can be a bug or a feature, depending on the person and the context.

>> Nature does not care if you are 'happy', just that you survive. <<

No shit.

>> Burrowing under the furs, for a day or so, instead of going out, and freezing in the snow, makes excellent survival sense.
Saves calories.
Does not have to be full-on torpor, just "don'wanna!" <<

This would dovetail not only with SAD but also with the widespread inclination of people to turtle up indoors when the weather is awful.

One of my quirks is that I become torpid in the heat, which I tolerate poorly. This does discourage me from overheating until I die, but sadly does not shut off my awareness of sweltering.

>> and nobody to guilt trip you for 'not being productive'. <<

This makes me wonder how much of SAD problems come not from the condition itself but people trying to work against it. Noncircadian disorder is almost entirely problematic because it doesn't fit with conventional life, not because it's inherently unhealthy.

What would happen if SAD folks simply followed their inclination and semi-hibernated through the dark part of the year? They'd probably be more comfortable. Especially since no small number of them seem to become more hyper in summer. That's especially true in Alaska, where people may only feel like sleeping for a few hours in summer, and can barely get out of bed in winter. An extreme environment seems to rouse instincts that are usually dormant nowadays.

>> ...*If* Bigfoot exists, they might do the 'sleep as much as you can', thing, too... <<

That would fit descriptions of Bigfoot as large, hairy, and dwelling mostly in cold remote places.

From: (Anonymous)

I recall from somewhere or other that lethargy while you are grieving is a feature not a bug. It's so you don't go out and get killed by something stupid due to being emotionally compromised.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

I have heard similarly that parental exhaustion with a new infant reduces the chance of them getting bored and abandoning before it becomes interesting.

But I think both are simply natural results of massive energy depletion.

From: (Anonymous)

>>...reduces the chance of them getting bored and abandoning before it becomes interesting.<<

Also why we:
- find neonatenous features adorable
- investigate noise that is the same frequency as infants' crying (this one is exploited by pet cats)
- begin focusing on faces and mirroring expressions before almost anything else

From:

ysabetwordsmith

All true. An infant's cry is compelling.

Many people wonder why it's so hard to control sexual urges, why more folks fail than succeed at that. Simple: to continue the species. Childbirth tends to be miserable and babies are resource sinks for years. If people could avoid it, they probably would, so the compulsion to copulate has to be potent enough to overwhelm logic and willpower.

The advent of birth control has given humans another tool -- and the result is that, in contexts with reproductive care, women choose to have far fewer babies. Most want either 1 or 2 (both of which are below replacement rate), not 9 or 12.

From: (Anonymous)

>>An infant's cry is compelling.<<

To /humans/. Imagine a scifi where the alien finds out teething lasts for months... and spends the next three months wearing earplugs, earmuffs, and possibly a space helmet /simultaneously/...because the human infant randomly alarming is nails-on-the-blackboard unnerving.

>>Childbirth tends to be miserable...<<

One argument against intelligent design (in my opinion); producing new life shouldn't be excruciatingly painful. (And ideally wouldn't involve shoving things through the pelvis...inefficient design, that.)

I recall a 'girl's talk' conversation from a few years back. Essentially:

"My husband wants more kids but I don't.*"
"Well, tell him he can get pregnant then!"
*or '...don't want to be pregnant again,' I forget the exact wording.

I also remember my (male) classmate from high school...who said he was /really really glad/ he wouldn't have to worry about childbirth...

Y'know, someone should do a time-travel romance that references this.

"Yes I love you, but I don't want to lose all my autonomy and possessions if we marry, and also I'm kind of terrified of dying in childbirth... Hey! Get back here and discuss this with me goshdangit! Are you a grown man or not!?"

From:

wispfox

">>Childbirth tends to be miserable...<<

One argument against intelligent design (in my opinion); producing new life shouldn't be excruciatingly painful. (And ideally wouldn't involve shoving things through the pelvis...inefficient design, that.)"

Christianity claims this is a punishment for eating the apple in the garden of Eden. I think this is a case of coming up with an explanation after the fact. *wry*

Although, if the 'apple' symbolizes self awareness/consciousness - which may be accurate, given that the first thing anyone did after eating it was cover up their nakedness - then the probably larger head as a result of that does explain it. Just... not as a punishment but as a natural consequence to self-awareness.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> One argument against intelligent design (in my opinion); producing new life shouldn't be excruciatingly painful. (And ideally wouldn't involve shoving things through the pelvis...inefficient design, that.)" <<

True. Evolution mainly uses what it has. Only on rare occasions does something completely new emerge as a random mutation. So many of the designs are suboptimal or outright kludges.

Would an omnipotent male god place testicles outside the body? No he would not. They would be safely protected by bony armor like the brain.

>>Although, if the 'apple' symbolizes self awareness/consciousness - which may be accurate, given that the first thing anyone did after eating it was cover up their nakedness - then the probably larger head as a result of that does explain it. Just... not as a punishment but as a natural consequence to self-awareness.<<

Well reasoned.

From: (Anonymous)

>>...*If* Bigfoot exists, they might do the 'sleep as much as you can', thing, too...<<

Now I want to see that story... Possibly with a lost human getting adopted and found several years later.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Pity the poor human who then had to re-adapt to a totally different activity rhythm. 0_o

From: (Anonymous)

Might not be any weirder than a Lost Colony being adopted by locals...

While I'd rather not live in the Stone Age, a hibernation cuddle puddle for the next 2-3 months sounds really relaxing.

From: (Anonymous)

Prey animals sleep less than predators. (The exception is cave animals - they almost never sleep.)

There is also a theory that before industrialization and indoor lighting, people would typically wake up about halfway throught the night, and use that time to gossip, romance their spouse, etc before going back to sleep.

Increased sleep is a symptom of grief and depression. And people who don't have access to food might spend a lot of time just lounging around, whether asleep or awake.

I wonder if cosleeping would be a significant variable? (Cosleeping could promote social bonds and human bodies were the original sleep heaters.)

Even today, the best plan for any version of 'someone/everyone is freezing/will freeze and we don't have fancy tech' is to get everyone into the same room, and possibly snuggling in the same bed/blanket/sleeping bag.

Look at other sleep disorders too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleine%E2%80%93Levin_syndrome

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersomnia

There's also an inversion: a genetic one where you stop being able to sleep...and then your brain just deteriorates from lack of sleep.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>>There is also a theory that before industrialization and indoor lighting, people would typically wake up about halfway throught the night, and use that time to gossip, romance their spouse, etc before going back to sleep.<<

I have seen that. It was also when people would get up and walk around their territory -- useful before there were walls for protection. I used to do it a lot when I was little.

>>Increased sleep is a symptom of grief and depression. And people who don't have access to food might spend a lot of time just lounging around, whether asleep or awake.<<

That's true.

>>I wonder if cosleeping would be a significant variable? (Cosleeping could promote social bonds and human bodies were the original sleep heaters.)<<

Possibly?

>>Even today, the best plan for any version of 'someone/everyone is freezing/will freeze and we don't have fancy tech' is to get everyone into the same room, and possibly snuggling in the same bed/blanket/sleeping bag.<<

Outside of a medical facility, the safest way to warm up a hypothermic person is to put them -- preferably naked, but underwear if necessary -- under covers with one or two other people.

>>There's also an inversion: a genetic one where you stop being able to sleep...and then your brain just deteriorates from lack of sleep.<<

Definitely one of the uglier ways to die. O_O

From: (Anonymous)

>>Possibly?<<

There are precedents for biological-function-tied-to-the group.

Female rhinos will only conceive if they are in a herd, for example. And the infamous locust only morphs into its 'swarm form' if the population density gets too high.

Not as extreme, but all caribou give birth on the same day (so there are too many babies for the predators to eat).

I could imagine cold-hibernating hominids especially being more prone to hibernate in a group - more warmth.

Also, there is an instinctive tendency for 'helpless' humans (usually sick/injured to incoherency) to go somewhere they feel safe.

This can mean that your Stone Age brain autopilots to a workplace, friend's house, your favorite coffeeshop (safe place and familiar people) instead of taking the Atomic Age option of sitting on the curb and calling an ambulance after getting hit by a truck.

I wouldn't be surprised if hibernation is more likely in a safe area near safe people.

From:

seal_girl

When I read your post I automatically thought of this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia#Terminal_burrowing

(what weird things we read when thinking about fanfic!)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> When I read your post I automatically thought of this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia#Terminal_burrowing <<

Fascinating! I had heard of paradoxical undressing, but not terminal burrowing.

This is exactly the kind of pattern you see when an organism has part, but not all of, a complex of genes governing a particular process. The nesting instinct is there, but the metabolic switch that allows controlled shutdown and later revival is (probably) missing. Individuals who survive hypothermia, including lengthy coldwater drowning, may have more of these missing pieces -- not enough to use routinely, but enough to give them an edge in survival situations.

Come to think of it, the maddening tendency toward metabolic drop when dieting may be a vestige of hibernation reflex, rather than purely a reaction to famine as generally posited. The difference is that one of those has a shutoff switch and the other doesn't. If it's vestigial hibernation, then it's much easier to find and control that switch: "No, we're not hibernating, continue normal activity levels." This would be extremely useful.

>> (what weird things we read when thinking about fanfic!) <<

LOL yes. I have learned far more from reading and writing, whether fanfic or original work, than I ever did in school. These are things I can apply to everyday needs -- or in some cases, I can highlight possible implications and avenues of research that other people might be able to use. No skin off my nose if someone wins a Nobel for an idea I threw out in the wild, since I haven't got a lab in this life.

From: (Anonymous)

Aren't there other forms of hibernation than 'suspended animation in cold?' I wonder if humans might respond to some of those...

Lungfish hibernate in drought:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/59987-lungfish-hibernate-underground-nsf-video.html

Also:
“Hibernation is an adaptation to an anticipation of famine,” says Brian Barnes, director of the Institute of Arctic Biology at the University of Alaska–Fairbanks, who has studied hibernation for 40 years.
https://www.nwf.org/Magazines/National-Wildlife/2014/DecJan/Animals/Hibernation

And:
https://mises.org/wire/poverty-forced-farmers-good-old-days-sleep-winter-away

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Aren't there other forms of hibernation than 'suspended animation in cold?' I wonder if humans might respond to some of those... <<

Yes. Estivation (heat sleeping) is another. Like hibernation, it seems to have long-term and short-term variations. I become torpid in heat.

From:

wispfox

I was just telling my cat that I'm sleepy all the time because winter and seasonal affective disorder. I also have insomnia, which is worse in winter partly because it's harder to change states from whatever I'm doing after it gets dark to going to bed.

Maybe I would be better off hibernating, or at least not fighting to be productive.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> I was just telling my cat that I'm sleepy all the time because winter and seasonal affective disorder. I also have insomnia, which is worse in winter <<

That sucks. :(

>> partly because it's harder to change states from whatever I'm doing after it gets dark to going to bed. <<

Some people find special lights helpful with this, including but not limited to daylight bulbs, light panels, and sunrise alarm clocks.

Others find bedtime rituals helpful, like turning off electronic devices an hour before bed, brushing hair, taking a hot bath, etc.

One of my tools for managing activity level is tea. Some blends I only drink in the morning, others only at night, based on whether they are uplifting or relaxing. Then there are 'anytime' teas like mint.

>>Maybe I would be better off hibernating, or at least not fighting to be productive.<<

That is possible. It seems especially probable if you become more active in summer. (I am the opposite, more lively in autumn and winter, less in summer.)

From:

wispfox

I have both a sunrise alarm clock and a lightbox, actually. They both definitely help! So does visiting my parents in Florida in February when I can afford it/we aren't having a pandemic. :)

I should absolutely be better at my bedtime rituals - I've been struggling with that since before the pandemic as I'd been working at home for far too long. It's trouble.

I am indeed much more productive in summertime. Not having to try to work on things in winter - especially February - makes a huge difference.

From:

ofmonstrouswords

...this would explain a lot about me. I already know my Neanderthal genes are more expressed or plentiful (the neck hump, boy she is prominent on me! and oof that forehead), so this would also explain why I have SAD & tend to over-eat and sleep a hell of a lot during the winter months.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> ...this would explain a lot about me. I already know my Neanderthal genes are more expressed or plentiful (the neck hump, boy she is prominent on me! and oof that forehead), <<

Fascinating! Yeah, in any mix, there will be some individuals who get a stronger concentration.

>> so this would also explain why I have SAD & tend to over-eat and sleep a hell of a lot during the winter months. <<

Do you have the counterpart of being hyper and not feeling sleepy in summer? That's not universal, but it's fairly common; and toward the poles, seasons affect more people more strongly in general.

My pattern is weirder: torpid in summer, more active in fall and winter; less hungry in heat, more hungry in autumn and winter. But this makes me wonder if there's an ancestral or instinctive aspect to that. I have the old enhanced senses, but I'm such a mishmash of influences that it's hard to pin down where any one thing comes from. It's interesting to think about, though.

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