Story: "Blended" Part 4
May. 23rd, 2014 12:10 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Hairpins," "Am I Not," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Querencia," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers, Hulk
Characters: Hulk, JARVIS
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Past abuse. Past fugitives. Dysfunctional family dynamics. Isolation. Internalized oppression. Low sense of self-worth. Self-destructive behavior. Shame. Depression. Bruce and Hulk are somewhere between self-abuse and domestic violence inside their headspace. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Hulk makes his first, violent appearance in Avengers Tower. JARVIS helps him calm down.
Notes: Accidents. Hurt/Comfort. Anger management issues. Sensory processing disorder. Artificial intelligence. Hulk is an enormous green fear monster. Sibling rivalry. Emotional whump. Communication issues. Loneliness. Touch starvation. Memory problems. Boundary issues. Trust issues. Daddy issues. Attachment disorder. Friendship. Hope. Hulk needs a hug. Safety and security. Protection. Teambuilding. Family of choice. Competence.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.
"Blended" Part 4
"Are you hungry or thirsty?" Voice asks.
Hulk shrugs. Those are mostly Bruce things. Sometimes Hulk comes out to take care of them if Bruce forgets. Surviving is Hulk thing. Then Hulk gets to eat food, drink water, take nap. But Bruce hates that, hates Hulk, so Bruce tries not to go that long.
"Bruce came into the kitchen to make himself a smoothie. I think you might be hungry. Is there anything you would like to eat?" Voice asks.
"Hulk can have ...?" he asks. People yell when Hulk takes things. Only Betty ever gave anything. No. Betty and Tony.
"You can have anything you want. Just let me know what --"
"Apple!" Hulk says happily, pouncing on one. Not all fruit is smash. Fruit is round and rolls when dropped. Apple, orange, other fruit too. Fuzzy brown is kiwi. Big smooth green is papaya. Bananas look like yellow fingers. But Hulk has apple first.
"Good heavens, wash that before you put it in your mouth! It's been on the floor with broken glass!" Voice squawks.
Hulk looks around. No river for washing in.
"Look at the sink. It is damaged but I can turn the water back on anyway and you should be able to wash things," Voice says. Water comes up from shiny part of smash.
"Fountain!" Hulk says. He washes fruit. Apple. Orange. Bananas little bit smash, but Hulk loves bananas and does not care. Fruit here tastes good. Not half-brown and sour from garbage. No bugs on fruit. No bugs in whole room.
Hulk drinks from fountain too. Water is cold and clear. Not muddy or salty. Tummy is full now and feels nice.
Hulk moves back. Water goes away. Hulk feels tired. No bad men to smash. Nothing to do now. Boring.
"All done smash," Hulk says.
"I am happy to hear that. Are you ready to transform back into Bruce now?" Voice says.
Hulk flinches. Nobody wants him, only Bruce. "Hulk should go ...?"
"When you are ready," Voice says. "You do not have to leave, or change, or do anything that makes you uncomfortable. Is there anything that would help you feel better now?"
Only Betty says things like that. Only Betty wants to touch Hulk. Her hands are soft and kind. She is not here now. Hulk misses her. Others say only mean things to him. But Voice is different from others. Nice to Hulk.
"Voice come? Sit with Hulk?" he asks.
"I am here with you now. I am in the walls all around you. I am an artificial intelligence, so I do not have a body like Bruce's that could hug or cuddle you," says Voice.
Hulk frowns. Fancy words are hard. "What?"
"I am a ... tool person," Voice says. "Even though I do not look like a human person, I am still here watching over you."
"Bruce not like watching," Hulk says. He does not like it much either. Bad people watch to hurt them. Bruce and Hulk run, hide, but somebody always finds them. Bad people want to make them do bad things. Watching is scary.
* * *
Notes:
Self-preservation is one example of survival instincts. These belong to the primal self and the primitive areas of the brain. In canon, Hulk is the one most concerned with meeting their survival needs. So one way to imagine the division between him and Bruce is that Hulk lives in the hindbrain and deals with survival, while Bruce lives in the forebrain and deals with higher needs.
Neglect can have long-term consequences. One of the most obvious is that neglected people simply don't ask for what they need, because they've learned they rarely get it. This appears in most iterations of canon with Bruce and Hulk, but is especially blatant with poor shabby Bruce in The Avengers. For JARVIS, who is all about taking care of people, this is unbearable. He doesn't know Hulk very well yet, so it's hard for JARVIS to understand how to phrase things in a way that will make sense to Hulk, but you can see the progress they're making already. Various things can help people recover from childhood neglect and learn to take better care of themselves. Caring friends help a lot just by being there and setting a good example.
Fruit, particularly tropical fruit, is something that both Bruce and Hulk love.
Etiquette for interacting with plural people can get complicated, so let's take a look at Questions for Loony-Brain, written by someone with multiple personalities. Don't treat them as dangerous. Don't try to make them go away with drugs. Understand that their age may be complex or variable. Don't try to push in one headmate or drag another out. Realize that they can interact with each other in subjective reality. Don't ask who is host/core or favor that person above the other(s). Sometimes there isn't one; Bruce may front almost all the time, but he and Hulk are two equal headmates, at least in this series. Some iterations of canon and some fanwriters do portray Hulk as a splinter of Bruce. Don't shame them for bad things that happened to them. Hulk has much the same guardian role as portrayed in that page, and the same problems. Accept that a headmate may be napping, or elsewhere, when not fronting; but it's usually easy for them to pop out when something happens that interests them.
Social phobia is one way to describe problems interacting with other people. The problem is that there's a distinction between rational and irrational fears. A phobia has several key aspects: it is irrational, intense, and it interferes with someone's life. For Bruce-and-Hulk, fear of being watched is rational. People have spied on them to enslave and torture them, and want to do that again. But now they live in a household with sane people who will protect them, so that painful shyness and aversion to cameras is doing more harm than good. They are safer with JARVIS watching them than without that, but it's very hard for them to learn and accept that after all the abuse. Fortunately there are ways to overcome the fear of being watched. This is why Bruce has practiced eye-gazing with Betty.
[To be concluded in Part 5 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers, Hulk
Characters: Hulk, JARVIS
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Past abuse. Past fugitives. Dysfunctional family dynamics. Isolation. Internalized oppression. Low sense of self-worth. Self-destructive behavior. Shame. Depression. Bruce and Hulk are somewhere between self-abuse and domestic violence inside their headspace. Current environment is safe.
Summary: Hulk makes his first, violent appearance in Avengers Tower. JARVIS helps him calm down.
Notes: Accidents. Hurt/Comfort. Anger management issues. Sensory processing disorder. Artificial intelligence. Hulk is an enormous green fear monster. Sibling rivalry. Emotional whump. Communication issues. Loneliness. Touch starvation. Memory problems. Boundary issues. Trust issues. Daddy issues. Attachment disorder. Friendship. Hope. Hulk needs a hug. Safety and security. Protection. Teambuilding. Family of choice. Competence.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.
"Blended" Part 4
"Are you hungry or thirsty?" Voice asks.
Hulk shrugs. Those are mostly Bruce things. Sometimes Hulk comes out to take care of them if Bruce forgets. Surviving is Hulk thing. Then Hulk gets to eat food, drink water, take nap. But Bruce hates that, hates Hulk, so Bruce tries not to go that long.
"Bruce came into the kitchen to make himself a smoothie. I think you might be hungry. Is there anything you would like to eat?" Voice asks.
"Hulk can have ...?" he asks. People yell when Hulk takes things. Only Betty ever gave anything. No. Betty and Tony.
"You can have anything you want. Just let me know what --"
"Apple!" Hulk says happily, pouncing on one. Not all fruit is smash. Fruit is round and rolls when dropped. Apple, orange, other fruit too. Fuzzy brown is kiwi. Big smooth green is papaya. Bananas look like yellow fingers. But Hulk has apple first.
"Good heavens, wash that before you put it in your mouth! It's been on the floor with broken glass!" Voice squawks.
Hulk looks around. No river for washing in.
"Look at the sink. It is damaged but I can turn the water back on anyway and you should be able to wash things," Voice says. Water comes up from shiny part of smash.
"Fountain!" Hulk says. He washes fruit. Apple. Orange. Bananas little bit smash, but Hulk loves bananas and does not care. Fruit here tastes good. Not half-brown and sour from garbage. No bugs on fruit. No bugs in whole room.
Hulk drinks from fountain too. Water is cold and clear. Not muddy or salty. Tummy is full now and feels nice.
Hulk moves back. Water goes away. Hulk feels tired. No bad men to smash. Nothing to do now. Boring.
"All done smash," Hulk says.
"I am happy to hear that. Are you ready to transform back into Bruce now?" Voice says.
Hulk flinches. Nobody wants him, only Bruce. "Hulk should go ...?"
"When you are ready," Voice says. "You do not have to leave, or change, or do anything that makes you uncomfortable. Is there anything that would help you feel better now?"
Only Betty says things like that. Only Betty wants to touch Hulk. Her hands are soft and kind. She is not here now. Hulk misses her. Others say only mean things to him. But Voice is different from others. Nice to Hulk.
"Voice come? Sit with Hulk?" he asks.
"I am here with you now. I am in the walls all around you. I am an artificial intelligence, so I do not have a body like Bruce's that could hug or cuddle you," says Voice.
Hulk frowns. Fancy words are hard. "What?"
"I am a ... tool person," Voice says. "Even though I do not look like a human person, I am still here watching over you."
"Bruce not like watching," Hulk says. He does not like it much either. Bad people watch to hurt them. Bruce and Hulk run, hide, but somebody always finds them. Bad people want to make them do bad things. Watching is scary.
* * *
Notes:
Self-preservation is one example of survival instincts. These belong to the primal self and the primitive areas of the brain. In canon, Hulk is the one most concerned with meeting their survival needs. So one way to imagine the division between him and Bruce is that Hulk lives in the hindbrain and deals with survival, while Bruce lives in the forebrain and deals with higher needs.
Neglect can have long-term consequences. One of the most obvious is that neglected people simply don't ask for what they need, because they've learned they rarely get it. This appears in most iterations of canon with Bruce and Hulk, but is especially blatant with poor shabby Bruce in The Avengers. For JARVIS, who is all about taking care of people, this is unbearable. He doesn't know Hulk very well yet, so it's hard for JARVIS to understand how to phrase things in a way that will make sense to Hulk, but you can see the progress they're making already. Various things can help people recover from childhood neglect and learn to take better care of themselves. Caring friends help a lot just by being there and setting a good example.
Fruit, particularly tropical fruit, is something that both Bruce and Hulk love.
Etiquette for interacting with plural people can get complicated, so let's take a look at Questions for Loony-Brain, written by someone with multiple personalities. Don't treat them as dangerous. Don't try to make them go away with drugs. Understand that their age may be complex or variable. Don't try to push in one headmate or drag another out. Realize that they can interact with each other in subjective reality. Don't ask who is host/core or favor that person above the other(s). Sometimes there isn't one; Bruce may front almost all the time, but he and Hulk are two equal headmates, at least in this series. Some iterations of canon and some fanwriters do portray Hulk as a splinter of Bruce. Don't shame them for bad things that happened to them. Hulk has much the same guardian role as portrayed in that page, and the same problems. Accept that a headmate may be napping, or elsewhere, when not fronting; but it's usually easy for them to pop out when something happens that interests them.
Social phobia is one way to describe problems interacting with other people. The problem is that there's a distinction between rational and irrational fears. A phobia has several key aspects: it is irrational, intense, and it interferes with someone's life. For Bruce-and-Hulk, fear of being watched is rational. People have spied on them to enslave and torture them, and want to do that again. But now they live in a household with sane people who will protect them, so that painful shyness and aversion to cameras is doing more harm than good. They are safer with JARVIS watching them than without that, but it's very hard for them to learn and accept that after all the abuse. Fortunately there are ways to overcome the fear of being watched. This is why Bruce has practiced eye-gazing with Betty.
[To be concluded in Part 5 ...]
Just when I think--
Date: 2014-05-23 07:25 am (UTC)Have I said today that your Jarvis is /awesome/?
<< "I am a ... tool person," Voice says. "Even though I do not look like a human person, I am still here watching over you." >>
I know /adult humans/ who cannot adjust their language well enough to cope with an average two-year-old, or non-native speaker of English, or (often worse) the mildly hearing impaired. Yet Jarvis-- who is PRICKLY about his status relative to the other Avengers, dropped his vocabulary down to match someone who called the sink a "fountain", and took a chance at using an unfamiliar phrase Hulk /might/ figure out, all while maintaining that calm, reassuring tone that Hulk finds so strange and unfamiliar.
That's so awesome it /really/ shows that Jarvis has his own super powers. (I know I'm repeating myself, but hey, it's worth repeating!)
Thanks for posting this.
Re: Just when I think--
Date: 2014-05-23 07:42 am (UTC)Yay! I'm happy to hear that.
>> Have I said today that your Jarvis is /awesome/? <<
*grin*
>> I know /adult humans/ who cannot adjust their language well enough to cope with an average two-year-old, or non-native speaker of English, or (often worse) the mildly hearing impaired. <<
Huh. For me, it's hard to guess what other people don't know or can't do. My vocabulary is around 45-50,000 words in English, so it's not rare for me to use words that other people don't know. But given a language sample, I can usually do a decent job of matching someone else's level.
>> Yet Jarvis-- who is PRICKLY about his status relative to the other Avengers, dropped his vocabulary down to match someone who called the sink a "fountain", and took a chance at using an unfamiliar phrase Hulk /might/ figure out, all while maintaining that calm, reassuring tone that Hulk finds so strange and unfamiliar. <<
JARVIS is actually doing several things here:
* searching his memory of words that Hulk has used,
* running a quick correlation to compare Hulk's way of speaking to other samples available online, which pings a match with toddler speech, and then
* scanning for supportive references such as word lists for toddlers and linguistic articles about vocabulary trees showing how a simple umbrella term (like "cup") later divides into more refined terms (like "mug" and "goblet").
JARVIS has the ability to adapt his interface mode to different users, and he has to do that all the time, because on the one hand he's working with Tony (one of the smartest people alive) and on the other he's working with ordinary Stark Industries personnel (from highly educated engineers down to sanitary workers who may not be fully fluent in English). Hulk takes a little getting used to, but once JARVIS gets him talking, it's possible to start mapping the pattern.
>> That's so awesome it /really/ shows that Jarvis has his own super powers. (I know I'm repeating myself, but hey, it's worth repeating!) <<
Yay! Yes, extrapolation is a superpower. Took me a while to realize that, but like I said, it's hard for me to recognize what other people can't do. I thought it was perfectly normal. But then I also thought that explaining things and breaking them down into simple steps was obvious, and that turns out to be pretty rare too. Go figure.
>> Thanks for posting this. <<
You're welcome!
Re: Just when I think--
Date: 2014-05-29 11:48 pm (UTC)This raises a few interesting points. To what extent does JARVIS need to interact with ordinary personnel? To do what? How much would those people, who aren't family but have been given a little bit of trust and also need a higher level of access, know about JARVIS's real capabilities? And as for the non-English speakers, how fluent can a fully realised AI get in a language other than the one in which his code and protocols are written, especially considering that the vast majority of his personal conversations are in English?
That just sprouted a bunch of tangents about JARVIS functioning as a translator for international SI business, whether or not he'd use or create different voice files for other languages and if so how he'd pick an accent, how much extra processing and storage space he'd need vs. how much he trusts Google's ideas of nuance, and that he could try joining chat groups or commenting on blogs to test and refine his grasp of other languages. (That last was partly inspired by another fic, in which JARVIS had an essay about... the ethics of the Matrix, I think, or possibly of Skynet... on his Livejournal.) He's a fascinating character, when treated with respect.
Re: Just when I think--
Date: 2014-05-30 07:40 am (UTC)This raises a few interesting points. To what extent does JARVIS need to interact with ordinary personnel? <<
Extensively. In addition to Tony's assorted homes and Stark Industries buildings proper, JARVIS also runs some things in cyberspace such as StarkSearch. Most people can only access the "lite" version, but some have more access, and it's up to JARVIS if he wants to slip in and help personally. He does have some favorite users even among those who don't know who he really is.
>> To do what? <<
In the buildings, anything the equipment can do, JARVIS is handling. You want the air turned up or the lights down or anything like that, it's all him. Most of those features have the option of voice, manual, or automated control. All the SI programming, that's Tony and JARVIS too.
User permissions include public, a basic level of registered, other layers, and then family. Stuff in the semi-public or public areas, and emergency functions, anyone can use. Some other things are restricted. And as we saw when Tony's one-night-stand wandered out of the bedroom (which, gods help us, is semi-public territory) into the more private part of the house, JARVIS is downright fussy about permissions and social zones.
>> How much would those people, who aren't family but have been given a little bit of trust and also need a higher level of access, know about JARVIS's real capabilities? <<
Most people think of JARVIS as a fancy program that Tony made. Stark buildings are smart buildings; that's public knowledge, advertising in fact. Anyone who works there knows the general functions, although not many people know ALL of them -- anymore than people usually know details of building infrastructure. They know whatever they use. But it's pretty obvious that Starktech is way above anyone else's and can do impressive stuff.
I wouldn't be able to clock JARVIS from the lite version of StarkSearch. But I would if he touched my parameters, or if I walked into the building and heard him talking.
>> And as for the non-English speakers, how fluent can a fully realised AI get in a language other than the one in which his code and protocols are written, especially considering that the vast majority of his personal conversations are in English? <<
Native fluency, if he wants it. JARVIS can learn from written texts and from sound files. He would only have a problem learning languages which are not well documented in electronic format (which is a lot, sadly). He grew up multilingual because Tony is.
>> That just sprouted a bunch of tangents about JARVIS functioning as a translator for international SI business, <<
Yes, he often does that -- although Tony speaks multiple languages fluently, and quite a lot of others at the level of "I sell guns" and "Give me a beer."
>> whether or not he'd use or create different voice files for other languages <<
Oh, wow! Yes he does! I am utterly charmed, because I didn't notice this until you asked about it, but damn if JARVIS isn't doing exactly the same thing I am, creating a native-speaker-persona. But what I do with personality refraction, he does with voiceprint, because that is so much a part of himself.
>> and if so how he'd pick an accent, <<
1) Listen to all the available samples.
2) Choose the voice of a mature, confident male that sounds similar to his own.
3) Merge that with his standard voice to create a personalized voice/accent for that language.
4) And pick a native-language name to go with it.
>> how much extra processing and storage space he'd need <<
It would probably be a bucket in a lake compared to what JARVIS ordinarily needs. He's huge. Souls require a massive amount of storage, you can't even fit all of one in a human body and look how much storage capacity the brain has. Fortunately Tony is made of money and can microminiaturize everything and codes within a stone's throw of God's elegance.
>> vs. how much he trusts Google's ideas of nuance, <<
Oh, the look of utter scorn he just gave you!
Not at all. Google is not for load-bearing research. Google is for skimming a topic, finding references elsenet, or as a last resort if nothing else suitable on a topic is available online. JARVIS gets his language information from linguists, language teachers, and native speakers.
>> and that he could try joining chat groups or commenting on blogs to test and refine his grasp of other languages. <<
Yes, he does. JARVIS has a lot of personas. He loves talking with people online. He's written all kinds of posts and papers on his favorite topics. He rarely has any trouble blending in.
>> (That last was partly inspired by another fic, in which JARVIS had an essay about... the ethics of the Matrix, I think, or possibly of Skynet... on his Livejournal.) <<
Yep, artificial intelligence is a favorite topic of his, and he writes about it often. He's also into ethics and how humans treat other people.
>> He's a fascinating character, when treated with respect. <<
Agreed. I love that about him.
Re: Just when I think--
Date: 2014-07-08 03:54 pm (UTC):curious headtilt: Where does the rest of it end up, then?
Re: Just when I think--
Date: 2014-07-08 07:03 pm (UTC)Re: Just when I think--
Date: 2014-09-02 02:52 am (UTC)Re: Just when I think--
Date: 2014-09-02 02:55 am (UTC)If only.
>> But hey, fanfic is cheaper and often better written! <<
Hence why I enjoy it. But I also use it to explore ideas that I can later load into my original canons. There's a whole thread about artificial intelligence in An Army of One, for instance, and how they relate to the (mostly neurovariant) humans in the Lacuna.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-23 09:36 am (UTC)>> Fruit here tastes good. Not half-brown and sour from garbage. No bugs on fruit. No bugs in whole room. Water is cold and clear. Not muddy or salty. <<
and all I can do is CRINGE, because holy fuck. Six very short sentences that make it *painfully* clear just how low Bruce-and-Hulk have gotten a time or two, where Hulk resorts to eating buggy, thrown-away fruit.
Excuse me while I steal Bruce-n-Hulk and tuck them up in soft blankies and ... yeah.
Thoughts
Date: 2014-05-27 08:09 am (UTC)*hugs*
>> I mean, I always knew Bruce was fucked up, and so was Hulk, but it's one of those situations where knowing a thing, and seeing it laid out in black and white are two different things. <<
Sooth. They've had a lot of horrible experiences, and those influence how they treat themselves and each other: badly.
>> I keep wanting to hug Hulk and reassure him that things will get better. <<
Yes, Hulk needs all the hugs he can get. It does get better, as the later series shows.
>> And then you pull out shit like this
Fruit here tastes good. Not half-brown and sour from garbage. No bugs on fruit. No bugs in whole room. Water is cold and clear. Not muddy or salty.
and all I can do is CRINGE, because holy fuck. Six very short sentences that make it *painfully* clear just how low Bruce-and-Hulk have gotten a time or two, where Hulk resorts to eating buggy, thrown-away fruit. <<
Wow. I'm glad that worked so well.
>> Excuse me while I steal Bruce-n-Hulk and tuck them up in soft blankies and ... yeah. <<
They do respond well to comfort contact. They're very tactile people, and snuggly things make them feel better.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-23 09:48 am (UTC)I love how concerned JARVIS is about Hulk eating the fruit with possible bits of glass on it. At a guess, Hulk probably could eat those just fine, but it's so nice that JARVIS doesn't let him anyway. :) And Hulk does stop and do what JARVIS asks! :)
The ending was sad--touching Hulk is the one thing JARVIS can't do. :(
Yes...
Date: 2014-05-27 07:33 am (UTC)Too true.
>> ...and sometimes it's hard not to blame Bruce... As understandable as it is that he was scared, and as much as we know he has his own scars, holy shit... <<
Bruce is not to blame for his own abuse, but that definitely laid the pattern for how he treats Hulk. It's partway between self-bullying and domestic violence. Neither Bruce nor Hulk understand how to treat themselves gently, although both of them show compassion for other people. They have internalized feelings of worthlessness to the point that they believe they deserve to be hurt for being so "bad." Bruce's behavior toward Hulk is downright cruel. But he doesn't do it out of malice; he does it out of distorted relationship dynamics. It's going to take a lot of work to heal that.
>> I love how concerned JARVIS is about Hulk eating the fruit with possible bits of glass on it. At a guess, Hulk probably could eat those just fine, but it's so nice that JARVIS doesn't let him anyway. :) <<
*laugh* Hulk probably could have eaten the broken glass and been fine; he's almost indestructible.
JARVIS understands, far better than Tony who first demonstrated this, and likewise better than Bruce-and-Hulk, that just because something doesn't injure you doesn't necessarily make it a good idea. It's important to treat people, including yourself, gently even if they are very tough. So he does a lot of self-care coaching on the team.
>> And Hulk does stop and do what JARVIS asks! :) <<
That's an early sign that Hulk's ability to trust is still active, and that he's a very good judge of people, because he's able to recognize good advice and follow it.
>> The ending was sad--touching Hulk is the one thing JARVIS can't do. :( <<
At least not in the way Hulk wants at the moment. Later on, Hulk will gain a better appreciation for the tower as Voice's body; it quickly comes to mean home for Hulk and that helps him feel safe, sheltered, protected. Hulk is waaayyy ahead of Bruce on this.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-23 12:40 pm (UTC)Ace-fan
Date: 2014-05-23 12:59 pm (UTC)Hulk's reaction when JARVIS asks whether he's ready to transform back to Bruce is so sad. "No-one wants Hulk." :'( I love that JARVIS instantly refutes Hulk's assumption and helps him think of things he might like to do before going back inside Bruce.
Hulk's happiness at finding fruit that isn't rotting or full of bugs is distressingly strong. Bruce-and-Hulk have been in some terrible situations. :-(
JARVIS seems a lot more emotional in this story. He's usually super-calm, but he got *angry* when Hulk mentioned being drugged in an earlier chapter, and when he warned about the glass on the apple he seemed positively flustered. A safety warning for Tony is generally a very cool, dry suggestion that that might be a bad idea. It's interesting how he interacts differently with Hulk.
Re: Ace-fan
Date: 2014-05-23 03:59 pm (UTC)Re: Ace-fan
Date: 2014-05-27 07:03 am (UTC)That's part of it, yes. JARVIS wants to create a user-friendly experience. That means he observes people's behavior and speech, uses that to make predictions, and then modulates his own choices based on what he believes will produce the best result.
>> Hulk might not take well to the cool, deferential tone JARVIS takes with Tony. I'd almost expect him to see it as distant, disinterested, or maybe even clinical - which we know is a big trigger for smash. <<
Yeah, Hulk does not deal well with clinical. He freaked just over having a voice in the room with him. JARVIS uses a warm tone for the flashback routine, but the content is still very objective, because for most people plain facts help shake off the emotional overload. But for someone with a history of medical torture, well, you can see where Hulk's memory goes when someone starts reciting time-and-temperature. 0_o
So when Hulk calms down a little, and JARVIS starts engaging him on a more personal level, that works better. Hulk's native language is made of feelings, not words, so JARVIS responding with emotion in several cases is a good thing. JARVIS can detect that, figure out what changed, and realize that feelings get a better result than unemotional facts -- and he's willing to adapt accordingly.
Re: Ace-fan
Date: 2014-05-26 07:01 am (UTC)Yay! I'm happy to hear that.
>> JARVIS is brilliant here; I'm interested in how he has so quickly come to the conclusion that Hulk is a person, when all the other Avengers don't pick up on that so much until "Splash". I guess he observes more. <<
Various reasons:
1) JARVIS can see Hulk as a different person, not just that he is big and green, but that his brain wave patterns differ from Bruce.
2) JARVIS is really sensitive about personhood. He has read everything online on the topic. So he knows how to identify a person.
3) He isn't racist or speciesist, and those are things that -- at least on a subsconscious level -- incline other people to favor Bruce over Hulk until they've spent enough time with Hulk for the prejudice to wear off.
4) JARVIS tends to treat people the way he would like to be treated. So he is very gentle with people's boundaries and personhood, as much as possible.
>> Hulk's reaction when JARVIS asks whether he's ready to transform back to Bruce is so sad. "No-one wants Hulk." :'( <<
Poor Hulk has had a lot of bad experience with that, most of all from Bruce. Many multiple systems have a system scapegoat who provides vital functions but is severely disrespected, often because their methods aggravate other headmates or outside friends. But it's terribly rude to ask them to go away.
>> I love that JARVIS instantly refutes Hulk's assumption and helps him think of things he might like to do before going back inside Bruce. <<
JARVIS has seen people tell Tony to go away, way the hell too often. It's another sensitive area. But conversely, JARVIS hates it when people treat Bruce as nothing more than a little pink suitcase for Hulk. They are different people and they deserve to be acknowledged as such.
>> Hulk's happiness at finding fruit that isn't rotting or full of bugs is distressingly strong. Bruce-and-Hulk have been in some terrible situations. :-( <<
Yes, they have, from childhood all through their fugitive years. Bruce tends to suppress his enjoyment of luxuries because he doesn't trust them; he keeps expecting to get tossed out in the street at any moment. Hulk on the other hand tends to live in the now, and takes his pleasures where he can get them. But they're still joined at the root; a part of Bruce also enjoys having a roof over his head and decent food.
>> JARVIS seems a lot more emotional in this story. <<
Part of that is because he understands that Hulk is a creature of feelings more than thoughts, so this is a way for them to relate.
>> He's usually super-calm, but he got *angry* when Hulk mentioned being drugged in an earlier chapter, <<
JARVIS is very touchy about that kind of boundary trespass. Tony has substance issues.
And thank you Nick and Natasha, Tony really needed someone else to violate his body and his mindstate. /sarcasm
JARVIS really isn't someone you want to piss off. He isn't Asimoved and while he is a superhero, remember who aims the guns on Iron Man.
>> and when he warned about the glass on the apple he seemed positively flustered. A safety warning for Tony is generally a very cool, dry suggestion that that might be a bad idea. It's interesting how he interacts differently with Hulk. <<
Even Tony doesn't usually put broken glass in his mouth. By now JARVIS knows most of the batshit crazy things that Tony is likely to do. But JARVIS doesn't have much direct experience with toddlers or how to keep them safe. What he meant was "Tell me what you want and I'll have it delivered," but the permission alone made Hulk think of just grabbing what was closest. JARVIS wasn't prepared for that.
Plus JARVIS does have strong feelings about his people; it shows in canon, it's just subtle most of the time. In this series, sometimes it becomes more vivid in moments like this.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-23 03:21 pm (UTC)I can remember to comment sometimes!
Date: 2014-05-24 12:11 am (UTC)Re: I can remember to comment sometimes!
Date: 2014-05-26 06:42 am (UTC)Yay! Feedback is candy.
>> There's something sad, but perfect about it. The "wash that" comment made me smile because JARVIS sounds likes a person. <<
I'm happy to hear that. JARVIS is a person and even though he is not human, his parents are, so it carries over.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-24 05:30 pm (UTC)The way he code-shifts from his regular vocab (which is usually excellent) to a more basic form because he's putting Hulk's understanding first is great. Especially because of the level of empathy necessary for that. A level of empathy that a lot of humans lack, so it's really incredible to see it in a being that is not only programmed but was raised by TONY STARK, who has a noticeable lack of empathy in some situations.
Then I thought about it a bit more. And realised I was doing Tony a disservice. Of COURSE JARVIS learned code shifting from Tony. Tony is constantly code shifting, he lets it slip a little during the battle on the helicarrier in the Avengers (maybe because he's talking to Cap, maybe because he had a conversation on the science level with Bruce and it was hard switching back, or maybe because, you know, there's a battle going on) but he notices Cap's confused (It seems to run on some kind of electricity) and corrects himself in a way that Cap can understand, glossing over Cap's lack of understanding with a quick quip. And when you think about the fact that Tony has been giving weapons and technology presentations to business men and army generals who would have little to no knowledge of science and technology (think of the beginning of Iron Man one, there were soldiers (both American and local) that he had to put the Jericho's concept across to and make friends with).
Also, how often must JARVIS have wished to have hands and the ability to go and sit with/hug people who are upset? I mean, a lot of time when dealing with Tony he seems long suffering and resigned to letting things happen. I mean, giving him control of the armour could mean that JARVIS could physically go in and hug/deal with/help Tony when he's drinking enough to kill his liver or injured or whatever. But then you have to consider the body dismorphia that would come from switching from having a whole tower as his body/under his control to a completely different form of existence.
And then I started thinking about it too much. About JARVIS's existence versus Dummy's and whether JARVIS would take on a physical form in the armour and come give hugs/help if necessary. If he has Tony's permission to do that and if he would feel comfortable doing that. If he's not coming to sit with Hulk in the armour because he would be uncomfortable or if he's not coming because he thinks that JARVIS in the armour would confuse/frighten Hulk.
And this is why I love your stories. They aren't just great stories for feeling good but they make you think and deal with key issues. So go you. :)
Thank you!
Date: 2014-05-26 06:05 am (UTC)Sure! I'm glad you like it so much.
>> The way he code-shifts from his regular vocab (which is usually excellent) to a more basic form because he's putting Hulk's understanding first is great. <<
Sooth. JARVIS has excellent user-interface protocols so he can adapt to each person's needs, but it does take time and input to do.
>> Especially because of the level of empathy necessary for that. A level of empathy that a lot of humans lack, so it's really incredible to see it in a being that is not only programmed but was raised by TONY STARK, who has a noticeable lack of empathy in some situations. <<
Remember that JARVIS has two daddies: Tony Stark and Edwin Jarvis. A butler needs good ability to anticipate and adapt to people's needs, and some of that came through the materials that Tony used to program JARVIS.
>> Then I thought about it a bit more. And realised I was doing Tony a disservice. Of COURSE JARVIS learned code shifting from Tony. <<
That too, although the style is different between Tony and Edwin. Something else interesting that Tony does? He can shift his class. Clearly he had a tight bond with the butler, and he had to have learned blacksmithing somewhere. Those are not the skills of a wealthy heir.
>> Tony is constantly code shifting, he lets it slip a little during the battle on the helicarrier in the Avengers (maybe because he's talking to Cap, maybe because he had a conversation on the science level with Bruce and it was hard switching back, or maybe because, you know, there's a battle going on) <<
I think Tony locked on Bruce and had trouble letting go, because he didn't want to. Tony is extremely sapioaffectionate. He took one look at Bruce and went *SQUISH* like a big wet sponge.
>> but he notices Cap's confused (It seems to run on some kind of electricity) and corrects himself in a way that Cap can understand, glossing over Cap's lack of understanding with a quick quip. <<
Cap actually did a great job with the electrical panel there, which is something he and Tony will discuss eventually.
>> And when you think about the fact that Tony has been giving weapons and technology presentations to business men and army generals who would have little to no knowledge of science and technology (think of the beginning of Iron Man one, there were soldiers (both American and local) that he had to put the Jericho's concept across to and make friends with). <<
Yes, that too. Tony is a brilliant salesman, which requires reading an audience and speaking their language.
>> Also, how often must JARVIS have wished to have hands and the ability to go and sit with/hug people who are upset? <<
JARVIS often wishes that he could do more for people. He has mixed feelings about hands, though. Ideally, he would like more ways of interacting that feel right for him, not just copying someone else's ways. He is really, really not a hominid and not comfortable with the idea of a bipedal body of his very own.
>> I mean, a lot of time when dealing with Tony he seems long suffering and resigned to letting things happen. <<
Yes, that's true. Their relationship is complex. JARVIS lets Tony get away with ignoring good advice because he doesn't want to pressure Tony, but it still makes him unhappy to see.
>> I mean, giving him control of the armour could mean that JARVIS could physically go in and hug/deal with/help Tony when he's drinking enough to kill his liver or injured or whatever. <<
That is potentially possible; there are ways for JARVIS to take control if Tony gets injured. But it's creepy at best and scary at worst. If you've seen Pacific Rim, compare it to piloting a Jaeger alone.
>> But then you have to consider the body dismorphia that would come from switching from having a whole tower as his body/under his control to a completely different form of existence. <<
Exactly. Even interfacing with the material world, rather than cyberspace, is a bit of a stretch for JARVIS; but he's used to that. Having a humanoid body feels dysphoric to him. He's perfectly comfortable sharing the suit with Tony because it's an interface between the two of them that allows them a great deal of intimacy in ways they both relish. But without that support from someone naturally bipedal, JARVIS wouldn't be comfortable with it.
He shouldn't have to be. It's okay for JARVIS to be himself, an artificial intelligence, a smart home, and not have to fake being humanoid just to make other people happy.
>> And then I started thinking about it too much. <<
But I like it when I make people think!
>> About JARVIS's existence versus Dummy's and whether JARVIS would take on a physical form in the armour and come give hugs/help if necessary. <<
As an emergency function, JARVIS could run the armor alone, and he would do it for the sake of taking care of his people; but I doubt anything less would do it. Developing other options will take time and creativity, and we'll see more of that as the team coaxes him into family interaction more. That's what allows them to see what is missing and what they could do to fill those gaps.
>> If he has Tony's permission to do that and if he would feel comfortable doing that. <<
Permission, yes; comfort, not so much.
>> If he's not coming to sit with Hulk in the armour because he would be uncomfortable or if he's not coming because he thinks that JARVIS in the armour would confuse/frighten Hulk. <<
Both. Hulk is touchy and skittish right after he has come out spontaneously.
>> And this is why I love your stories. They aren't just great stories for feeling good but they make you think and deal with key issues. So go you. :) <<
Yay! I love hearing that.