>> I'm only talking about people within my own subcultures growing up, or in my twenties and thirties, et cetera. That's a pretty wild and wacky list, but it IS limited, <<
I've seen the problem of not knowing how to apologize across a wide range of people, but increasingly so the younger they get, as those skills are not being transmitted as well as they used to. Among older people, it tends to be a problem of privileged individuals: rich straight white Christian men in particular. The more dominant society allows them to be, the more entitled they feel.
Many people feel that they should never have to apologize to anyone they outrank, and that everyone below them should have to apologize to them. But a real leader is polite to everyone.
>> The one thing that's consistent even across different ethnic groups is that I've found women have often been taught SPECIFICALLY not just HOW to apologize, but to do so IMMEDIATELY, often before deciding /if/ there's any fault or upset or problem. <<
That's an effect of belonging to a disadvantaged group. It's not universal among women -- you don't see it in matriarchal cultures, for instance -- but it's very widespread. Same thing can happen with poor people, who are often trained to grovel.
This is one of the major sticking points for me. I can turn from stubborn to truculent to downright vicious very quickly if ordered to apologize for something that is not my fault, just for belonging to a group that someone thinks is beneath them. I will grab the speaker's nearest sacred cow and butcher the screaming beast with my claymore. And I can do a LOT of social damage very quickly.
Women are trained to take on fault that isn't theirs and deny credit that is. And then people wonder why there's a pervasive problem with imposter syndrome, anxiety, depression, etc. Well hey, it's because you built a society that makes people hate and doubt themselves! And you call them bitches if they don't.
Yeah, no, fuck that noise. I'll do my own bookkeeping on skill and fault.
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dancing_serpent
Re: from the notes:
Date: 2014-05-03 04:57 am (UTC)I've seen the problem of not knowing how to apologize across a wide range of people, but increasingly so the younger they get, as those skills are not being transmitted as well as they used to. Among older people, it tends to be a problem of privileged individuals: rich straight white Christian men in particular. The more dominant society allows them to be, the more entitled they feel.
Many people feel that they should never have to apologize to anyone they outrank, and that everyone below them should have to apologize to them. But a real leader is polite to everyone.
>> The one thing that's consistent even across different ethnic groups is that I've found women have often been taught SPECIFICALLY not just HOW to apologize, but to do so IMMEDIATELY, often before deciding /if/ there's any fault or upset or problem. <<
That's an effect of belonging to a disadvantaged group. It's not universal among women -- you don't see it in matriarchal cultures, for instance -- but it's very widespread. Same thing can happen with poor people, who are often trained to grovel.
This is one of the major sticking points for me. I can turn from stubborn to truculent to downright vicious very quickly if ordered to apologize for something that is not my fault, just for belonging to a group that someone thinks is beneath them. I will grab the speaker's nearest sacred cow and butcher the screaming beast with my claymore. And I can do a LOT of social damage very quickly.
Women are trained to take on fault that isn't theirs and deny credit that is. And then people wonder why there's a pervasive problem with imposter syndrome, anxiety, depression, etc. Well hey, it's because you built a society that makes people hate and doubt themselves! And you call them bitches if they don't.
Yeah, no, fuck that noise. I'll do my own bookkeeping on skill and fault.