Philosophical Questions: Harm

[ysabetwordsmith]

People have expressed interest in deep topics, so this list focuses on philosophical questions.

How far should governments go to prevent its citizens from causing harm to themselves?


A government ought to prevent people from harming others, but it is not the government's business if people choose to harm themselves. Humans have free will. They may choose to do things which other see as harmful, but they enjoy or find useful. It is particularly egregious when the government tries to take away a coping method without offering a better alternative or changing situations so that it is not needed. It adds insult to injury when the government rails about one thing being dangerous while forcing another dangerous thing on people.

Comments

[siliconshaman]

There should be a word added in there... "how far should governments go to prevent it's citizens from accidentally causing harm to themselves?"

Consensual deliberate 'harm' is none of their damn business. Granted, informed consent is key, and it should be the government's business to ensure everyone knows what they are doing, what the risks of smoking, alcohol and other recreational drugs are... but it's should not be their business to try and prevent people from indulging in them. Although, it is definitely a government's business to prevent other people from influencing that choice as well, e.g advertising, drug pushers etc...

As for BDSM antics, that is right off the table for government over-sight. You might as well lump in extreme sports with that. They're both broad categories of ways of causing an adrenaline high and just as much no-one else's business.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> There should be a word added in there... "how far should governments go to prevent it's citizens from accidentally causing harm to themselves?" <<

Well reasoned. I heartily approve things like guardrails on mountain roads.

>> Consensual deliberate 'harm' is none of their damn business. Granted, informed consent is key, and it should be the government's business to ensure everyone knows what they are doing, what the risks of smoking, alcohol and other recreational drugs are... but it's should not be their business to try and prevent people from indulging in them.<<

Agreed.

>> Although, it is definitely a government's business to prevent other people from influencing that choice as well, e.g advertising, drug pushers etc... <<

I would classify that as harming others, which is not okay.

[acelightning2]

I neer understood why suicide should be a crime; how are they going to punish e perp? But many states now have "assisted suicide" laws, for someone who is already dying of a painful and eventually fatal disease, to be "put out of their suffering". But it's not the government's job to outlaw skydiving. There should be sensible regulations, like learning how to pack your chute and how to land without breaking your ankles. BUt that's like teaching people how to drive safely before they get a license.

And given how many states in the US have legalized cannabis, without there being epidemics of crime in those states, I think we've learned that there ARE sane, relatively harmless ways of giving your brain a bit of a vacation.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I neer understood why suicide should be a crime; how are they going to punish e perp? <<

So the livestock doesn't escape. They rely on intimidation, punishing relatives, or punishing people who made the attempt but did not succeed.

>> But many states now have "assisted suicide" laws, for someone who is already dying of a painful and eventually fatal disease, to be "put out of their suffering".<<

Better than nothing, but it still impedes the free passage of a soul into and out of incarnation. You don't have a right not to be in pain. People can put you through any amount of torture, and it's not legal to escape unless an illness will already kill you very soon. It doesn't cover dementia, a leading reason why people wish to abandon a body, nor nonfatal chronic diseases that make living an utter misery. So people do what they've always done when they run out of cope: they just break the law.

>>And given how many states in the US have legalized cannabis, without there being epidemics of crime in those states, I think we've learned that there ARE sane, relatively harmless ways of giving your brain a bit of a vacation.<<

No shit.

[acelightning2]

I like it when libraries compile lists of books that were once banned, and make those books easily available for patrons to read. Reading banned books is good for one's intellectual health.

Yes ...

[ysabetwordsmith]

Agreed.

My favorite display of banned books had, front and center, the Bible and a dictionary.

Re: Yes ...

[acelightning2]

THe Bible is full of things no child should read. Moses' daughters committing incest with him. THe murder of the innocents in order to eliminate the new Messiah. Judith seducing and then beheading the enemy general Holofernes.

And dictionaries contain anotomical information about the naughty bits no child should ever even name.

BUt I read James Joyce's Ulysses because it was banned. Except for the sexually explicit bits it was boring.

And then I read the Koran, just because I wasn't supposed to.

Re: Yes ...

[ysabetwordsmith]

Mom and I made the local bookstore order The Satanic Verses for us, just because it was banned. Lousy book, I don't think either of us got past the first chapter, but it's a fond family memory.

Re: Yes ...

[acelightning2]

TSV was banned because it mentioned something Mohammed did that he shoudn't have done, like when the French humor magazine printed a cartoon that was unflattering to Mohammed. Normal Muslims would riot in the streets and demand the immediate execution of the person who slandered the Prophet.

Hats Off To Hands Off

[gothfvck]

(Third or fourth time I've begun replying to this and then wondered off for some reason and ended up closing the browser, losing my response.)

How far should governments go to prevent its citizens from causing harm to themselves?

They shouldn't.

*puts his headphones back on and continues walking*

Okay, fine.
⏯️

One's body belongs to oneself. If nobody else is involved then it is none of anyone else's business and a person ought to be left to one's own devices.

What is considered "harm" differs depending on who is asked. A person should have the right to assisted suicide as much as one has the right to drink a liter of soda and eat fast "food" everyday. It could be argued that the latter does have a negative impact because of all the farm animals and exploitive labor but, that's a topic for another day.

"Harm" could even be considered body modifications such as branding, tattoos, elective plastic surgery, or even bleaching of one's hair. If we want to take this to extremes. It's all slippery slopes, after all, isn't it?

Generally, when this topic is brought up it's usually around suicide and drugs. People really like drugs. Go ahead and get wasted for all I care. Just stay away from me when you're blitzed out of your skull.

So, bars are legal. Alcohol can be bought everywhere. Sometimes there are restrictions. Some are helpful. Everyone needs to remember what happens when things are full on prohibited. There are going to be people who make and sell the thing anyway because there is always going to be demand.

What we do need are safe places to go for people to consume whatever pleases them. There are some places and it has been shown that it helps. A person can get a fix with safe drugs and tools. There could, and should, also be pamphlets nearby and a way for people to get help if required to stop doing addictive drugs. It needs to be affordable and a person needs to be able to take time away from work.

Similarly, people need access to hotlines, affordable therapy and other healthcare including procedures and medicines, healthy foods, and whatnot in case a person ultimately does not wish to harm oneself. This is where and how the gooberment needs to step in. Helping people and creating a society where people can thrive rather than struggle to just barely survive in misery.

Re: Hats Off To Hands Off

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> They shouldn't. <<

I do approve preventing accidental self-harm, as someone else pointed out. Things like guardrails on mountain roads are essential for public safety.

It's people's choices that the government should butt out of.

>> One's body belongs to oneself. If nobody else is involved then it is none of anyone else's business and a person ought to be left to one's own devices.<<

Agreed.

>>What is considered "harm" differs depending on who is asked. <<

True.

>> A person should have the right to assisted suicide <<

I feel that it is wrong to impede another soul's path. Only they can know when they're done with their life list, after all. Plus it's even to torture people, and trapping someone in a body or mind that is full of misery equals torture.

>> as much as one has the right to drink a liter of soda and eat fast "food" everyday.<<

Much of the hypocrisy stems from people's short attention spans. They think it's okay to murder someone, or commit suicide, as long as it's slow enough that they can't see it happening. But the end result is the same.

>>"Harm" could even be considered body modifications such as branding, tattoos, elective plastic surgery, or even bleaching of one's hair.<<

In fact, some cultures and laws do that. Others allow those, but scorn people for things like cutting or having someone whip them even if it makes them feel better. It's your body, do what the hell you want with it.

>>Generally, when this topic is brought up it's usually around suicide and drugs. People really like drugs. Go ahead and get wasted for all I care. Just stay away from me when you're blitzed out of your skull.<<

Well said.

>>Everyone needs to remember what happens when things are full on prohibited. There are going to be people who make and sell the thing anyway because there is always going to be demand.<<

Prohibition in America spawned massive gang violence, and merely drove alcohol consumption underground. Repealing it was one of the few times America admitted that it just fucked up.

>>What we do need are safe places to go for people to consume whatever pleases them. There are some places and it has been shown that it helps.<<

I'm a big fan of harm reduction.

>>There could, and should, also be pamphlets nearby and a way for people to get help if required to stop doing addictive drugs. It needs to be affordable and a person needs to be able to take time away from work.<<

And that's where it falls apart, because usually help is only for the rich. America classifies health care as a paid privilege instead of a human right, blames people for having problems but withholds resources to solve problems.

>> Similarly, people need access to hotlines <<

I no longer recommend hotlines because I've heard too many negative reports about them. Nowadays, instead of helping someone who is melting down, they demand sensitive information first. If you can't or don't want to give them your legal name and home address, they refuse to help you. So fuck 'em. That fails my standards of helpful.

>> This is where and how the gooberment needs to step in.<<

Sometimes the government does okay at this, but more often, nonprofits do a better job of actually helping. And the government flat-out refuses to do a lot of harm-reduction things that would really help.

Re: Hats Off To Hands Off

[gothfvck]

>> "Things like guardrails on mountain roads are essential for public safety."

Ah yeah. If someone wishes to intentionally drive off the road then that person will very likely harm the environment and other life dwelling or passing through. This is dangerous and selfish.

Pretty much any and every safety regulation in place be it on the road or construction of a building or anything else, is in place as a reaction to somebody already being seriously injured or because people have already died.

People will cut corners to save time and money. This also affects other people. Even if a person is building a small dwelling to live in, eventually another person may live there or be close enough to sustain injury if it collapses. It could also entirely catch fire and spread if the electrical was done improperly.

Integrity. It's not just the name of a hardcore band. It's a value and a mindset everyone needs to have at all times. ;) One that parents need to live by and instill into their children and schools need to emphasize.


>> "I feel that it is wrong to impede another soul's path. Only they can know when they're done with their life list, after all. Plus it's even to torture people, and trapping someone in a body or mind that is full of misery equals torture."

This is a lovely way to put it.
I feel like there's potentially several topics we could digress into here. Reincarnation. Life's purpose. If there is such a thing as a soul. What any potential afterlife is like and what it's purpose is.

>> "And that's where it falls apart, because usually help is only for the rich. America classifies health care as a paid privilege instead of a human right, blames people for having problems but withholds resources to solve problems."

Yeah. It's intentional. Create the problems. Put people into bad situation then blame the people for all of it and offer nothing.


>> "I no longer recommend hotlines because I've heard too many negative reports about them. Nowadays, instead of helping someone who is melting down, they demand sensitive information first. If you can't or don't want to give them your legal name and home address, they refuse to help you. So fuck 'em. That fails my standards of helpful."

Oh wow. I didn't know that. Yeah, forget 'em in that case. I wonder if it's because people are trolling them, wasting their time? Or maybe they're collecting into to sell to insurance companies, drug companies, ad brokers, or who knows what. They do not need that info.
Maybe it's less nefarious and they can't or have a hard time tracing phone calls so they want to know where a person is to send help? lol. I doubt that's the case, though.

>> "Sometimes the government does okay at this, but more often, nonprofits do a better job of actually helping. And the government flat-out refuses to do a lot of harm-reduction things that would really help."

Ah yes! This is where I was going next. Non-profits and grass roots efforts with monetary aid & outreach from the gov't -- maybe, with professionals leading the way. Follow current research. As with everything, make evidence based policies. (see Pirate Party). The people of a community could do a great job helping the people of a community.

Except, everything costs money. People seem to have less money than ever. That's a topic unto itself.... 😵

Re: Hats Off To Hands Off

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Pretty much any and every safety regulation in place be it on the road or construction of a building or anything else, is in place as a reaction to somebody already being seriously injured or because people have already died.<<

Prevailingly true.

>> People will cut corners to save time and money. This also affects other people. <<

Yeah, that's a problem.

>>Even if a person is building a small dwelling to live in, eventually another person may live there or be close enough to sustain injury if it collapses. It could also entirely catch fire and spread if the electrical was done improperly.<<

This depends a lot on the context. In a town, it makes sense to have some level of consistency ... except that a few decades later, they've regulated themselves into a critical housing shortage because the requirements make it so expensive to build housing that developers only want to build rich-people housing. :/ That's what is called a solution-caused problem.

In rural or wilderness territory, build whatever suits your needs. Those spaces are rarely zoned. There are some lovely YouTube videos about building cabins or other shelters in the wilderness that are quite nice -- no electricity required.

>> Integrity. It's not just the name of a hardcore band. It's a value and a mindset everyone needs to have at all times. ;) One that parents need to live by and instill into their children and schools need to emphasize.<<

Sadly, a rare virtue today.

>>I feel like there's potentially several topics we could digress into here. Reincarnation. Life's purpose. If there is such a thing as a soul. What any potential afterlife is like and what it's purpose is.<<

All familiar territory for me.

>>Yeah. It's intentional. Create the problems. Put people into bad situation then blame the people for all of it and offer nothing.<<

Local-America in a nutshell. What they don't realize is that, if you teach people they're powerless, and they believe you, then they tend to quit feeling responsible for anything, so they have little or no motivation to improve things because they feel it will make no difference. Then you're really screwed.

>> Or maybe they're collecting into to sell to insurance companies, drug companies, ad brokers, or who knows what. They do not need that info.<<

Frequently a motive. Or the government.

>>Maybe it's less nefarious and they can't or have a hard time tracing phone calls so they want to know where a person is to send help? <<

Oh, that is a reason. They want to be able to go to that person. But maybe the person doesn't want the police to come to their place, or be stuffed into an ambulance and imprisoned n a mental ward without their consent. Maybe they just wanted to talk to someone, anonymously, about how much their life sucks and hear "Yeah, that's awful, no wonder you're upset." Or whatever.

>> Non-profits and grass roots efforts with monetary aid & outreach from the gov't -- maybe, with professionals leading the way. Follow current research. As with everything, make evidence based policies. <<

Evidence-based is good, if you can get it. For people who distrust the authorities, peer counseling is an excellent option -- particularly the kind where someone who's lived with the same challenges can offer tips and moral support to newcomers.

>> Except, everything costs money. People seem to have less money than ever. That's a topic unto itself.... 😵

The green frog skins will screw you every time.