Philosophical Questions: Animals
Mar. 15th, 2025 11:03 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithPeople have expressed interest in deep topics, so this list focuses on philosophical questions.
If it was discovered that most animals were conscious of their existence and eventual death, what would be the ramifications of that discovery?
Most animals are conscious of their existence. They also have instincts to help them continue existing, such as seeking food and avoiding danger.
Many mammals also have some awareness of death as a current loss, looking for and mourning a lost companion. Many animals that nurture their young will become upset if one dies. Fewer pay attention to a loss over considerable time, but there have been enough cases to show that multiple species are capable of doing so. One notable example is the tendency of elephants to touch the bones of other elephants, fondling the bones with their trunks and rumbling whatever it is that elephants say on such occasions.
What seems to be rare, or at least rarely observed by humans, is the case of animals understanding about death before it happens. An animal going away to die may be explained by a more general tendency to hide when unwell and vulnerable. However, this does not explain the tendency of some animals to "say goodbye" to human friends near the end, with actions that humans interpret as such, mostly cats and dogs but occasionally horses or others. Conversations with great apes indicate that they have a more complete understanding of death as a life event, some belief about what it is like, and a deep capacity for mourning.
It's not difficult to know these things, and most humans care fuckall about them. So I doubt that expanding animal awareness would sway many people, given that even great apes are not recognized as persons with rights.
However, it is worth noting that many tribal societies have had taboos relating to animal death. Some are particular to a certain area or species, like not disturbing elephant bones in Africa. Others are more widespread, like not hunting while mothers and babies are together, which does support species renewal but is sometimes framed as an admonition to avoid causing unnecessary grief.
If it was discovered that most animals were conscious of their existence and eventual death, what would be the ramifications of that discovery?
Most animals are conscious of their existence. They also have instincts to help them continue existing, such as seeking food and avoiding danger.
Many mammals also have some awareness of death as a current loss, looking for and mourning a lost companion. Many animals that nurture their young will become upset if one dies. Fewer pay attention to a loss over considerable time, but there have been enough cases to show that multiple species are capable of doing so. One notable example is the tendency of elephants to touch the bones of other elephants, fondling the bones with their trunks and rumbling whatever it is that elephants say on such occasions.
What seems to be rare, or at least rarely observed by humans, is the case of animals understanding about death before it happens. An animal going away to die may be explained by a more general tendency to hide when unwell and vulnerable. However, this does not explain the tendency of some animals to "say goodbye" to human friends near the end, with actions that humans interpret as such, mostly cats and dogs but occasionally horses or others. Conversations with great apes indicate that they have a more complete understanding of death as a life event, some belief about what it is like, and a deep capacity for mourning.
It's not difficult to know these things, and most humans care fuckall about them. So I doubt that expanding animal awareness would sway many people, given that even great apes are not recognized as persons with rights.
However, it is worth noting that many tribal societies have had taboos relating to animal death. Some are particular to a certain area or species, like not disturbing elephant bones in Africa. Others are more widespread, like not hunting while mothers and babies are together, which does support species renewal but is sometimes framed as an admonition to avoid causing unnecessary grief.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-03-15 04:29 pm (UTC)Yes ...
Date: 2025-03-15 05:03 pm (UTC)Re: Yes ...
Date: 2025-03-15 05:40 pm (UTC)Koko was a very wise being.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-03-15 04:41 pm (UTC)When K'zin was dying of Congestive heart failure he'd move away from me, but not far, so I would go up to him and stroke him, and he'd sigh and settle against me purring. I *think* he was telling me he had to go, but wanted comfort. (since he could quite easily have moved away again.)
Monkey, who was K'zin's constant companion, would go and curl up on the stone slab I covered K'zins grave with for over a year, on a daily basis. He only stopped when his time came. (and yes, I did bury them side by side.)
Humans on the whole are remarkably self-centred and short-sighted, so yeah, I would not be surprised if acknowledgement of the fact animals are really no different emotionally than us made fuck all difference to humans.
Wow!
Date: 2025-03-16 04:42 am (UTC)That is the first I've heard of a nonhuman leaving grave gifts. Impressive. Thanks for sharing.
>>Humans on the whole are remarkably self-centred and short-sighted, so yeah, I would not be surprised if acknowledgement of the fact animals are really no different emotionally than us made fuck all difference to humans.<<
Sadly so.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-03-15 10:03 pm (UTC)His mood improved in his last 24 hours! He spent solo time with each of us, my then wife, he spent the longest with, me he plonked himself across my lap like Worcester, our cat at the time and lay there for ages. Fran, my second daughter, who bear related to the most hugged him and cried and he looked at Zoe (eldest) and Ruby, barked once and shifted a little to make room for all three to snuggle in on the loungroom floor.
The next day, we took him to the vet for the last time. The vet nurse who was set up to help him "go" encouraged us to give him last hugs and pats, then she administer the dose. Zoe and I were nearest his head and as the dose was began to be injected, he looked at me, then Zoe. Then put his head down.
I have never doubted the sentience of other species since. All animals have consciouness, therefore they _must_ have sentience. All animals think and feel from the richness of experience. They aren't simply, empty-headed, meat machines. The respond to kindness or cruelty exactly how we do, with licks, happy sounds or play. They respond to cruelty or chastisement like we do, withdrawal or attack for cruelty, kind chastisement with uncertainty and visible shame.
I have seen this with so many animals now. My sister's dog Alfie and my dad had an uneasy relationship, but when my dad refused to constinue treatment for painful complications from prostate cancer, at 89, Alfie spent more time with dad, he just knew. My sis had been dad's live-in carer, the last year of his life. She swears this, too. Alfie was glum, unmotivated for days after dad's passing.
These are anecdotes, not evidence, but working news, stories abound of animals warning us, rescuing us. There is evidence, again, anecdotal rather than impirical, but it happens too often to dismiss.
So I'll leave this post with news from a year or so ago, of research done at Cambridge University in the UK, that has found that bees may be sentient. Individual bees.
I'm an atheist, I embrace my beta predator/grazer hybrid origins, yet I give thanks in thought at every meal for the animals and plants that sustain me, as well as for the comfort animal companionship has given me. I remember all lives I've had affinity with at funerals, not only the deceased, but all the deceased I have known, human or otherwise. I also remenber that lives, the anonymous prey, that have sustained me and the people and familiars I have loved. That is how I remember all the fallen, as sacrifice to life itself. Death and life are inextricable and the very essence of being alive is self knowledge. It is compulsory to be defined as alive. Everybbeing asks, "Why am I here?"
(no subject)
Date: 2025-03-15 10:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-03-16 10:28 pm (UTC)Yes ...
Date: 2025-03-16 10:54 pm (UTC)Re: Yes ...
Date: 2025-03-16 11:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-03-16 11:10 pm (UTC)