Quantum Entanglement

[ysabetwordsmith]

... may include human brains.


Consider aspects of quantum physics, then compare that to how brains and minds work. One example is that quantum physics allows for nonlinear time. While most people's everyday experiences are timebound, some other things really are not. Love exists beyond space and time; you don't stop loving people just because they are far away or no longer living. PTSD and other "stuck" problems are functions of nonlinear time. There's a very precise, if unfortunately victim-blaming, description of this in Deep Space 9 with the wormhole aliens insisting that "Time is not linear" and "You exist here" regarding Sisko's memories of his wife's death. So, quantum entanglement in the brain is not just plausible, it may offer useful insights and problem-solving tools.


But there are other tasks our brains perform routinely that computers simply cannot match — interpreting events and situations and using imagination, creativity, and problem-solving skills.

This is why those are areas to watch closely in artificial intelligence.


If quantum processes are at work in the brain, it would be difficult to observe how they work and what they do. Indeed, not knowing exactly what we are looking for makes quantum processes very difficult to find. “If the brain uses quantum computation, then those quantum operators may be different from operators known from atomic systems,” Christian Kerskens, a neuroscience researcher at Trinity and one of the authors of the paper, told Big Think.

Yeah, but if we could figure out how those work in the brain, then that might help people design a quantum computer.


As the heart beats, it generates a signal called the heartbeat potential, or HEP. With each peak of the HEP, the researchers saw a corresponding spike in the NMR signal, which corresponds to the interactions among proton spins. This signal could be a result of entanglement, and witnessing it might indicate there was indeed a non-classical intermediary.

Fascinating.


Seeing entanglement in the brain may show that the brain is not classical, as previously thought, but rather a powerful quantum system. If the results can be confirmed, they could provide some indication that the brain uses quantum processes. This could begin to shed light on how our brain performs the powerful computations it does, and how it manages consciousness.

This has a lot of potential. I'm wondering, for example, if mental injuries and illnesses could show up in quantum entanglements. If so, then one reason for the lack of hard evidence in mental health would be that people were simply looking for it in the wrong place. Just having solid diagnostics would mean a big leap forward regarding conditions that a lot of people don't really believe in.

We could also explore how brains do some of the far-out superpower stuff, like consciously changing bodily responses so that, for instance, a monk can dry a wet sheet with body heat instead of dying from hypothermia like an ordinary person.

We could even tackle one of the oldest questions spanning philosophy, religion, and biology which is: How does an immaterial thing (the soul or mind) attach so pervasively to a material thing (the body)? Quantum entanglement would be a logical place to look for that attachment, since the soul/mind is made of energy, and "material" is actually just a bunch of whizzing little bits of energy holding hands and pretending really hard to be solid. Quantum physics is where the apparent material world breaks down and totally different things are going on.

Comments

[siliconshaman]

Not surprising really... the fundamental unit of memory is the cytosine microtubule, that has a column of electrons up the middle of it, that although classically isolated, exhibit quantum entanglement as they change spin state synchronously.

That said, this shows that quantum function extends beyond that base level. (as it has to logically, for the brain to function the way it does.)

Although... i'm not sure if I'd describe the soul as being energy ... as it's more a pattern of bias in the quantum field that underlies reality. Kind of like gravity is the way space/time bends without being a discrete 'thing', as it's more a matter of geometry.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Not surprising really... the fundamental unit of memory is the cytosine microtubule, that has a column of electrons up the middle of it, that although classically isolated, exhibit quantum entanglement as they change spin state synchronously.<<

Logical.

>> That said, this shows that quantum function extends beyond that base level. (as it has to logically, for the brain to function the way it does.) <<

Hence why I thought it would be inspiring for quantum computers. But seriously, practice safer hex and make sure you don't knock up your computer with a baby AI. If your brain is quantum, and the computer is quantum, that is definitely possible.

>>Although... i'm not sure if I'd describe the soul as being energy ... as it's more a pattern of bias in the quantum field that underlies reality. Kind of like gravity is the way space/time bends without being a discrete 'thing', as it's more a matter of geometry.<<

Hmm ... people generally think of the soul as energy. Thinking of it as a field pattern, I'm not sure how I'd prove or disprove that. A soul is huge, powerful, and ephemeral with regards to technology. So how would we examine its nature?

Re: Thoughts

[siliconshaman]

Well... I can think of one way, but it's not exactly ethical. If you randomised the local quantum field it would disrupt any patterns in it, but it shouldn't affect anything classical, like energy.

But that would be in effect a death field device in effect, and I am very deliberately not saying how one could do that. The world has enough weapons of mass destruction.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

O_O

Yeah, no, we are not using that method of research here on Planet of the Nutjobs.

Or Terramagne-Earth.

See, some scientists have brakes.

Re: Thoughts

[siliconshaman]

Brakes..and an active sense of self-preservation. There's no easy way to determine the area of affect before you turn the damned thing on.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Well, that puts you and me ahead of the nutjobs who lit the first atomic bomb when they were only mostly sure it wouldn't cook off the entire atmosphere. >_

Re: Thoughts

[siliconshaman]

To be fair, Oppie did the calculations on that and said the chance wasn't statistically significant, but was in favour of postponing the test until they were completely sure... he was overruled by the military.

Which I know, isn't really an improvement. Because if the damned device does get built, you just know who'll be in charge of that project! Which is why I'm not even going to mention here how you'd go about building it in theory.

Re: Thoughts

[edorfaus]

I think that wouldn't just be a death field, it'd be a soul-death field. Since it would destroy the soul itself, rather than just breaking its connection to a physical body, and thus preventing any form of reincarnation or afterlife for that soul. (Thank you for not explaining how, especially in public.)

(Well, assuming the field caught the whole of the soul anyway - but even if it didn't, I'd think grave damage would have been caused, far beyond a regular death.)

---

(Note: armchair (meta)physics ahead. I may be way off base here.)

I'm not sure if the distinction between bias pattern and energy is actually real - it might just be different ways of describing the same thing (with varying levels of detail).

On one side, if I understand entropy correctly, having any form of pattern (and thus order) implies energy; on the other, I doubt that the people saying the soul is energy actually mean an arbitrary chunk of random classical energy; it seems more likely they're thinking (if they've thought about it at all, that is) of energy with some sort of shape/pattern to it, without being all that specific as to what kind of energy (in physics terms). Quantum field energy might well fit the bill. (I expect the exact details of the shape/pattern would vary, as that would define which soul (and thus person) it is.)

Further, I'll note that gravity, being the way space/time bends, is still determined by energy, since the presence of that energy is what causes the bending (if I understand correctly). So, equivalently, the shape of the quantum field (and any patterns in that) may well be determined by the presence/location of quantum energy in that field?

Also, even classical physics is, ultimately, a set of quantum phenomena - just difficult to describe in those terms due to the scale of the number of interactions. (Assuming that quantum mechanics is correct, anyway. And AFAIK it's the best (most correct) theory we have at the moment.)

Which strongly suggests that "classical energy" (and thus matter) is ultimately just a pattern in the quantum fields... So I wouldn't be so sure that disrupting all the quantum patterns wouldn't also affect the classical energy in that area. Randomizing the field could e.g. disrupt the way those quantum patterns are pretending really hard to be classical energy/matter?

Re: Thoughts

[siliconshaman]

You could well be right.. but determining that empirically could be rather perilous, running the risk of unravelling reality.

Re: Thoughts

[edorfaus]

Yeah... I started off thinking "boom" (akin to an AM reaction or more), but soon realized that didn't quite cover it, that it could end up being much weirder than that. And while I hadn't quite thought of it unraveling reality, now that you've mentioned it, yes, I suppose it might. Even ignoring the suggested use case, I think this research should go under "too dangerous to attempt" until and unless some other research can conclusively show otherwise. (While I'm generally a proponent of science and figuring things out, some things are better left unknown.)

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Yyyyyyeah. I've seen dimensions decrystallize and have no wish to see that again. >_< Do not do experiments that put reality itself at risk.

... in my defense, I did not foresee that too much contact between local-Earth and nether-Earth would be dangerous due to incompatible physics. But they are, and weird shit ensued, and that's why the Steamsmith won't be featured in a fishbowl again. Single poems here and there are fine, but connecting the realities for hours is not. This time I was lucky and the effects quit as soon as I hastily decoupled the realities. But still, I'm an expert and I didn't see that in advance.

Re: Thoughts

[the_broken_tower]

[sighs]

I may have a question for you later, though I'm debating asking it.

- Leif / Luke F (he/him)

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I think that wouldn't just be a death field, it'd be a soul-death field.<<

It's more like a soul-banishing field. Souls are really fucking huge, so they tend not to be all in one place. They have different lives going on in different places at the "same time" (although time is really globular, not linear). Souls are also very persistent. So in practice, the most you would get would be dispersing one instance of a soul. Usually a soul is uploading life experiences all the time, subconsciously, so you wouldn't even lose much experience -- just the review.

>>(Well, assuming the field caught the whole of the soul anyway - but even if it didn't, I'd think grave damage would have been caused, far beyond a regular death.)<<

You wouldn't be catching the whole thing. Nowhere near a whole soul will fit in a body. The maximum loss would be one lifetime, if you had a world or a soul that didn't accommodate continuous upload. That would suck, but compare it to losing a day's work on the computer. There will be other days, other lives. The soul just wanders around going "Mother FUCK!" for a while, then gets back to work.

>>I'm not sure if the distinction between bias pattern and energy is actually real - it might just be different ways of describing the same thing (with varying levels of detail).<<

Well, an ocean wave is made of water (the medium) and energy (the cyclic pattern). Light is kind of a wavicle, it can behave as a particle or a wave. Sound is a wave that can travel through quite a variety of media. Electromagnetism is a range of energy that can behave in various ways. A soul is ... really, more like a massive collection of data, we are mostly made of our memories ... which can manifest as an energy pattern (if disembodied) or a matter pattern (if embodied).

>>On one side, if I understand entropy correctly, having any form of pattern (and thus order) implies energy; <<

Sort of. Entropy is an expression of decreasing energy and order. But some patterns are made of static matter rather than energy, like crystals, although their shape tells you something about the energy dynamics when they were forming.

Conversely, syntropy is the force of increasing order. Crystallization and life are both examples of syntropy, because entropy doesn't allow for increasing order.

>> on the other, I doubt that the people saying the soul is energy actually mean an arbitrary chunk of random classical energy;<<

It's not random energy, but is made of or expressed through energy.

>> it seems more likely they're thinking (if they've thought about it at all, that is) of energy with some sort of shape/pattern to it, without being all that specific as to what kind of energy (in physics terms).<<

You need at least unified field theory, and preferably higher, to explain how souls express themselves in energy, because they are not confined to one type. Think of how people used to believe electricity and magnetism were separate, and now they know those are really electromagnetism, which is how you can make an electromagnet or why magnets are bad for some electrical systems. And in fact, souls can interact with electromagnetism, which is why things like ghosts and soul powers can make electronics glitch.

>> Quantum field energy might well fit the bill. (I expect the exact details of the shape/pattern would vary, as that would define which soul (and thus person) it is.)<<

The energy patterns are kind of like DNA, in that a particular twist of pattern will encode a particular trait. To some extent, you can pass those packets around; simple skills are easier, and the more complex, the harder it gets.

>> Also, even classical physics is, ultimately, a set of quantum phenomena - just difficult to describe in those terms due to the scale of the number of interactions. (Assuming that quantum mechanics is correct, anyway. And AFAIK it's the best (most correct) theory we have at the moment.) <<

Classical physics is useful in describing the way the everyday world works, for which quantum physics is not useful unless you do magic or other things where quantum and classical functions overlap.

Quantum mechanics is true but incomplete. People haven't figured out enough of it yet to resolve some discrepancies and dilemmas. It does work.

>>Which strongly suggests that "classical energy" (and thus matter) is ultimately just a pattern in the quantum fields... So I wouldn't be so sure that disrupting all the quantum patterns wouldn't also affect the classical energy in that area. Randomizing the field could e.g. disrupt the way those quantum patterns are pretending really hard to be classical energy/matter? <<

... good point.

Re: Thoughts

[see_also_friend]

>>They have different lives going on in different places at the "same time" (although time is really globular, not linear).<<

My first thought with linear-temporal perception: "So you could argue with or murder yourself-as-a-separate-person?" Second thought: "Well, there is a school of thought that all things are connected, and seeing oneself in others is a foundational principle of lovingkindness..."

Although I have a hard time imagining globular time. Maybe like rain falling is linear, but being in the ocean is globular?

>>A soul is ... really, more like a massive collection of data, we are mostly made of our memories ... which can manifest as an energy pattern (if disembodied) or a matter pattern (if embodied).<<

Does this mean that ghosts are mostly disembodied souls with PTSD?

>>You need at least unified field theory, and preferably higher, to explain how souls express themselves in energy, because they are not confined to one type. <<

If you have to explain the underpinnings, yeah. If you just have to do stuff with soul-energy [or cars/livestock/most anything else], you don't necessarily need to know why a thing works, just that it does, in a "Do x to get y" sense.

"Don't raise the dead because you will offend the gods" would work just as well as "Don't raise the dead because [long explanation of quantum soul physics ending with] ...so you'll accidentally /dissolve the world in fire/."

Actually, the divinity explanation might work better - shorter, more concrete, easier to translate across languages and cultures. The only place it would fail is if someone pulls an Outgrown These Silly Superstitions...but such people are also often the sorts to freak out about spitting cobras, after being warned for fifty years.

>>Quantum mechanics is true but incomplete. People haven't figured out enough of it yet to resolve some discrepancies and dilemmas. It does work.<<

If something impossible is happening, it is by definition not impossible. It may be improbable, unlikely, or a misunderstanding...but verification is more useful than gaping. In some cases, /running/ may be more useful than verifying - YMMV and be sure to follow the locals/more experienced folks.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> My first thought with linear-temporal perception: "So you could argue with or murder yourself-as-a-separate-person?" <<

In theory, yes. In practice, different instances of the same soul tend to appear in different worlds or timeframes.

>> Second thought: "Well, there is a school of thought that all things are connected, and seeing oneself in others is a foundational principle of lovingkindness..." <<

Yep. Everything is alive; everything is connected. Separation is largely illusion. It is possible to disbelieve that illusion, either through mental techniques or some people prefer a chemical assist.

>> Although I have a hard time imagining globular time. Maybe like rain falling is linear, but being in the ocean is globular? <<

A river is linear, an ocean is globular. Or look at gravity, people think of it as "what sticks us to the ground" but it is also what defines the motion of planets and stars in space. Another way is to think of a board game with a path. You can follow the path step-by-step, but you can also look at the whole board simultaneously.

>> Does this mean that ghosts are mostly disembodied souls with PTSD? <<

That is one common way to get a ghost. It's also how you get what are sometimes called "psychic echoes," that are not disembodied souls but rather energy imprints, like footprints, scarred across reality itself from some awful event. Go to any battlefield and if you're sensitive you'll probably find some.

>>If you have to explain the underpinnings, yeah. If you just have to do stuff with soul-energy [or cars/livestock/most anything else], you don't necessarily need to know why a thing works, just that it does, in a "Do x to get y" sense.<<

This depends entirely on your audience. For some people "Don't" is sufficient. For others, they need an explanation of why, and they have to agree with it. Like Shiv and the "No Smoking" sign. He felt free to ignore that, and was horrified to learn that smoking near oxygen tanks can cause an explosion. "Why the fuck didn't anyone SAY so?" Because sign makers are used to people who like to follow rules.

>>but such people are also often the sorts to freak out about spitting cobras, after being warned for fifty years.<<

:D Yeah that's never going to stop being funny. I smile every time I see it.

>>If something impossible is happening, it is by definition not impossible. It may be improbable, unlikely, or a misunderstanding...but verification is more useful than gaping. In some cases, /running/ may be more useful than verifying - YMMV and be sure to follow the locals/more experienced folks.<<

It is surprisingly hard to convince most people of this.

Re: Thoughts

[the_broken_tower]

>> If something impossible is happening, it is by definition not impossible. It may be improbable, unlikely, or a misunderstanding...but verification is more useful than gaping. In some cases, /running/ may be more useful than verifying - YMMV and be sure to follow the locals/more experienced folks. <<

This helped us with a lot of things, once people got past denial/reframing as something it definitely wasn't.

There's a lot of commentary I could offer here, especially with soul structures and energy, but we've become more cautious about talking about some things where it could be found by anyone.

- Leif / Luke F (he/him)

Re: Thoughts

[edorfaus]

Nowhere near a whole soul will fit in a body.

I was assuming, based on siliconshaman's words, that the field would quite likely be much larger than a single body (I was considering things like potentially city-, country- or planet-sized fields), ...

Souls are really fucking huge, so they tend not to be all in one place. They have different lives going on in different places at the "same time"

... but I was also assuming that the rest of the soul would still be in the same "area", so to speak, fairly near the body, at least in quantum-field terms. Apparently that was incorrect.

one instance [...] uploading life experiences [...] losing a day's work [...] collection of data

I thought that the body contains an actual part of the soul, which would normally return to the rest of the soul after death, and that it would hurt (or otherwise be quite bad) to lose it. Basically a soul injury. This sounds more like the soul has, more or less, put together a kind of remote-control or autonomous-system package, usually with a data link, and put that into the body. Or at least, that what's in the body is more like a (partial) copy than an actual part of the soul, so that losing it would not really be an injury as such, just be annoying due to losing the potential future stuff it could still have been used for (like the review you mentioned). If that's the case, then I can see how it's more like banishment - the soul basically lost its "presence" there, but not much else. (Except when there's no upload link, in which case it also lost the experiences, but still no actual injury.)

Edit: Or, thinking about it, maybe it's just that the size difference is so large that, while losing that part is technically an injury, it's more like a papercut than anything serious? So, annoying but not really a significant problem, and fairly easily/quickly healed?

some patterns are made of static matter rather than energy

I thought entropy also applied to matter, since that's made of energy. Thus eventual heat death with no matter left. But I admit I don't know enough about it to tell whether that's correct, re:static matter.

how souls express themselves in energy, because they are not confined to one type.

This suggests that the effect will also depend on exactly which quantum fields the randomization weapon affects, if it doesn't randomize all of them - depending on which fields the local piece of soul happens to be using, and how, it might be unaffected, or only partially lost. (Hm, that might be an interesting situation, if all it lost was the uplink? Would it, or the rest of the soul (if it thought to come and look), be able to reestablish that, without a lot of trouble?)

The energy patterns are kind of like DNA, [...]

Interesting, and also more or less what I was thinking (albeit in more detail) - just like how human bodies share most DNA and such, there are similarities and commonalities (things that are not unique), but also differences in exactly how those things are combined and expressed and so on. E.g. that two souls can have the exact same twist of pattern that encodes a trait, but have them in different places (for lack of a better word), or maybe use them differently, or in different combinations with other such twists.

Re: Thoughts

[see_also_friend]

>>I think that wouldn't just be a death field, it'd be a soul-death field. Since it would destroy the soul itself, rather than just breaking its connection to a physical body, and thus preventing any form of reincarnation or afterlife for that soul.<<

I think it would depend.

- If it annihilates the soul, then it is gone. (seems more likely if the soul is attached to the body or is limited by the sort of spacetime humans are familiar with).

- If should teleport in spacetime, it might knock the soul out of an incarnation without destroying it.

- It may be possible to remove the soul without killing a person - for literary examples, see the Dementor's Kiss in Harry Potter (destroying soul), or intercision in the Golden Compass (separating the soul/body connection). I doubt this sort of happening would be survivable in the long-term, and even if it was, I think the person wouldn't be fully cognizant and functional.

>>Which strongly suggests that "classical energy" (and thus matter) is ultimately just a pattern in the quantum fields...<<

My understanding is that everything is made of molecules, which are made of combinations of atoms, which are made of combinations of protons/neutrons/electrons, which are made up of combinations of quarks at the quantum level. And since quarks are like tiny strings/notes/knots of energy, that means that everything in existence is made up of different combinations and recombinations of these teeny-tiny more than microscopic blips of energy.

>>So I wouldn't be so sure that disrupting all the quantum patterns wouldn't also affect the classical energy in that area.<<

If it messes with the quarks, commonsense says it would. And we already know that atom-altering processes tend to have blast ranges of several miles (at least if they go off fast - radioactive decay is slower but can still be really dangerous). And radiation tends to linger a loooong time.

>>Randomizing the field could e.g. disrupt the way those quantum patterns are pretending really hard to be classical energy/matter?

[navelgazed]

If this is true, I wonder if there would be anything that would naturally lead to 'multiple consciousnesses' in the way we personally view our plurality.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Well, first, a quantum computer is more powerful than one which is not, meaning it can do more functions and store more data in the same space.

... and wow, now I really want to see someone study bird brains for quantum phenomena, because those work more efficiently for their physical size. People think of dinosaurs as dumb, because they had proportionally small brains, but birds are actually quite smart for their size.

Second, quantum physics has a lot of forks and uncertainties and opposites that exist at the same time. This seems like it would support multiple consciousnesses. Hmm, but consiousness tends to collapse quantum uncertainties. That could pose a problem. On the third hoof, quantum physics manages to work with multiple humans in separate bodies observing it.

Third, quantum physics raises the possibility of extra dimensions beyond the three physical ones, and of other universes. These are relevant to some types of plurality, though not necessarily all.

I think you've got an interesting line of inquiry there. It would require plural physicists to explore, as singletons are unlikely to risk it. See, this is why we need diversity in science.

Re: Thoughts

[see_also_friend]

>>It would require plural physicists to explore, as singletons are unlikely to risk it. See, this is why we need diversity in science.<<

Or people who routinely deal with things like NDEs, kything, soulbonds, etc. But again, most folks will see that as fringe science.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

Well, study of near-death and temporary-death experiences has moved from purely fringe to overlapping hard science. People have done various types of neural scanning in attempt to study such things. So some neuroscientists might be interested.

Re: Thoughts

[see_also_friend]

>>This depends entirely on your audience.<<

If you want to coax them, lead them along the intermediary steps.

A death experience involving a visitation by the deceased could be the 'soul' or quantum energies connecting across vast distances.

You could even compare energy 'fingerprints' to try and catch outliers, like if a personality system has overlapping ones or someone with PTSD has a sudden change in theirs (or if someone's imprint is completely different after an NDE).

Methinks this sounds like a resurgence of the whole 'study death and mysticism and whatnot' sciences that were popular in the early 1900s. It would certainly make for some fascinating stories!

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> If you want to coax them, lead them along the intermediary steps.<<

Good idea.

>> A death experience involving a visitation by the deceased could be the 'soul' or quantum energies connecting across vast distances.<<

It's among the more common examples, and there are multiple reasons. Among the most salient:

* Souls are connected by links. It's why you can still love someone who has died. It's also how you travel while not embodied, you pull on that rope and it works like a tether in zero-G.

* Who doesn't want to greet their loved ones at the transit station? Especially if you suspect they're freaking out over the trip and you're worried about them.

>>You could even compare energy 'fingerprints' to try and catch outliers, like if a personality system has overlapping ones or someone with PTSD has a sudden change in theirs (or if someone's imprint is completely different after an NDE).<<

Yep. If you have the right tools, or even just ask the right questions and can your assumptions, then walk-ins are fairly easy to identify.

>>Methinks this sounds like a resurgence of the whole 'study death and mysticism and whatnot' sciences that were popular in the early 1900s.<<

Well, it happens every time technology has progressed enough farther that people think they can study it from a new angle.

>> It would certainly make for some fascinating stories!<<

People study souls and soulmarks in Eloquent Souls, if you want to prompt for this. Tuesday's theme will be "nature" so that fits.

[siliconshaman]

Quantum superposition... multiple entities overlapping.