Likeable Characters

[ysabetwordsmith]

This post asks if your main character should be likeable.

Let me be blunt: if I don't like the characters in a story, regardless of its format, I am unlikely to consume it.  Why would I spend hours with people I don't like?  If I enjoyed that, I'd go to parties.  There are better things I could be doing with my time.

That said, my taste in characters is pretty diverse.  I don't care for flat or stupid ones.  But I like unsullied heroes, and I like antiheroes if they're written well.  I like complex characters who grow and change, who face and overcome real problems.  I don't want them to be perfect, because I enjoy seeing them struggle with their flaws.  I just don't like assholes.

Sometimes, of course, a character grows on me.  It was someone else who spotted Shiv's real damage, which got me interested, and the more I explored, the more I liked the pesky litter fucker.  And then his fan base grew from about two people, to dozens; he's now one of my most popular characters.  He's still kind of a dick, but it's easier to put up with when we know why, and he's actually making effort on a few things he cares about, such as professional development.

You can write unlikeable characters if that's what you enjoy.  Just understand that you'll be paddling upstream with many readers. 

Comments

[technoshaman]

I'm not sure I'd call Shiv in violation of Wheaton's law these days. He's still got a button or two you can get on, and *most* people get cranky when you step on their buttons. But he's like actively trying to be helpful and shit most days... yes, he'll always be a supervillain, but he has a very low bullshit tolerance, so not a lot *actually bad* happens around him anymore... just, bad actors get dealt with *unconventionally*. :D

I liked that kid from the first.

[siliconshaman]

It's easy writing likeable characters.. writing ones that are ass-holes that you like anyway, that's harder. [well done with shiv!]

I think it's ok to write utter villains, it's more fun to write magnificent bastards or relatable bad guys [the sort of villain where he's a wrong-un, but you can see he's kind of got a point.]

But.. day-time tv soap-opera utterly unlikeable trash.. nuh-uh, who would want to read that?! Unless you're the sort of person who enjoys a good disaster, in which case I guess reading about horrible people doing terrible things to each other, while the world crashes down around them, might be your thing.

After all.. Game of Thones is popular.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I think it's interesting that the focus is on how likability is a 'requirement' for female characters that it isn't in male characters. It's akin to the 'batman test' regarding Mary Sue (aka, if the thrust of the argument means your character is a female Bruce Wayne, the argument is stupid and you should disregard it).

Tumblr is currently in the shoals I inhabit pointing out that characters of color also have hurdles to enjoy fanbase even when they've rolled about in Trope Fannip. Anti-heroes suddenly aren't as exciting, unsullied heroes are out of fashion when they aren't Very Much White.

I've been noticing that along with the grimdark brigade, there is this 'tainted love' to certain male creatives, where if the characters had any fourth wall powers they should Do Something. See Tony Stark for a particularly strong case of "my love is for you being the hottest messiest billionaire superhero, here are my fav rapejokes." This can also go along with not grasping the appeal of less fashionable characters and trying to set them up for character assassination.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I think it's interesting that the focus is on how likability is a 'requirement' for female characters that it isn't in male characters. It's akin to the 'batman test' regarding Mary Sue (aka, if the thrust of the argument means your character is a female Bruce Wayne, the argument is stupid and you should disregard it). <<

Gender-based double standards make my bullshit detector go "AAAOOOOOOOGAH!!!!"

I apply likeability to all characters. I hate Cat in Supergirl because she's a vicious psychotic bitch. And I hate Supergirl's new guy boss because he's a vicious narrow-minded asshole. They're both iterations of the Boss From Hell and they ruin otherwise good scenes just by screaming verbal abuse across the background.

And Darth Emo? Largely ruined The Force Awakens for me, because OMFG he has the worst control in the history of ever and is a whiny little shit, but we're supposed to believe he has power? That he can use effectively? And there's no motivation in sight. Zero, sip, nada. What the fuck even, get off my screen. I fantasize about fanfic in which Darth Emo gets pecked to pieces by Force ghosts telling him to go clean his room.

>> Tumblr is currently in the shoals I inhabit pointing out that characters of color also have hurdles to enjoy fanbase even when they've rolled about in Trope Fannip. <<

I'm so glad I don't have that problem in my audience. People are happy to read and fund characters of color.

>> Anti-heroes suddenly aren't as exciting, <<

I think the riskiest character of questionable ethics I have is probably Contretemps, who is white ... but a gay man who screws women for the manipulative thrill.

>> unsullied heroes are out of fashion when they aren't Very Much White. <<

I just realized, I can't think of an unsullied hero that I'm currently writing who is a person of color. I've had a few in the past. Polychrome Heroics has Stalwart Stan and Officer Pink, and had Captain Valor (now deceased); all white. :/ I need a new one! You could prompt for that.

>> I've been noticing that along with the grimdark brigade, there is this 'tainted love' to certain male creatives, where if the characters had any fourth wall powers they should Do Something. <<

Yeesh.

>> See Tony Stark for a particularly strong case of "my love is for you being the hottest messiest billionaire superhero, here are my fav rapejokes." This can also go along with not grasping the appeal of less fashionable characters and trying to set them up for character assassination. <<

Do. Not. Want.

My rich New York superhero has a thriving family life and better social skills, partly to contrast against Tony Stark. You couldn't confuse the two even in a dark room. When a teammate says, "Come on, Darcy, don't be a dick. Invite the supervillain who just helped us save New York home for a shower and sandwiches," Darcy goes along instead of snarking. It makes for a much healthier team.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I've not watched Supergirl, but I real find the bitchy boss tired. Agent Carter had an arc with the boss that dismissed Peggy; by the end he'd figured out he could have saved more lives and his own shoe leather if he'd Done What She Knew. But then he was (spoilers)

dead. It was a very male image of feminism. By that point Peggy had also 'gained' a precursor sort of Ward Grant, who'd Failed Spectacularly during the War and covered it up well enough to be lauded as a hero for it. Yep, doubling down he was at the end of first season.

Likable isn't a requirement for me, but effective is. However, that doesn't mean I revel in unlikable characters-it's just I allow for them being a shit to characters that deserve it, and bring out their better manners for people that appreciate them, like smart governesses, stray irregulars and everyone else a Victorian could grind down. ;)

Fandom is diverse but some parts of fandom haven't groked it and it makes fandom less fun than it could be.

I'll try to remember next fishbowl to prompt Unsullied and Not Defaulted Whiteness Heroes and Heras.

I tend to write to Tony's strengths, so in my Marvel/The Dresden Files crossover Tony hires people in Alternate Media Streams to get DIY info out to the people that need it, specifically designed using the stuff they can get for free or get paid to take away. He's still Tony, he's just experiencing new ways of being a futurist.

Currently, good characters doing not the right things canonically is providing the challenge of writing them discovering the teachable moment. Black Panther restored my confidence that directors can do the work and get it on the screen!

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I've not watched Supergirl, but I real find the bitchy boss tired. Agent Carter had an arc with the boss that dismissed Peggy; by the end he'd figured out he could have saved more lives and his own shoe leather if he'd Done What She Knew. <<

I have very little patience for ignoring a warning in general. If someone tells you there is a problem, or could be a problem, or doing X will solve Y, then fucking listen to them. Honestly, this kind of misbehavior is something I use to mark a character as stupid, unsympathetic, and probably going to be a villain.

>> Likable isn't a requirement for me, but effective is. <<

Yeah, that's probably true for me too.

>> However, that doesn't mean I revel in unlikable characters-it's just I allow for them being a shit to characters that deserve it, and bring out their better manners for people that appreciate them, like smart governesses, stray irregulars and everyone else a Victorian could grind down. ;) <<

I'm prone to like characters with good victim selection skills. Being nasty to people who deserve it is fine. Being nasty to the help is not. Generally, I prefer punching up or across to punching down.

>> Fandom is diverse but some parts of fandom haven't groked it and it makes fandom less fun than it could be. <<

Sadly so. But when the diversity crops up, it is brilliant beyond all reach of mainstream publishing. I love when people who get autism write Tony Stark.

>> I'll try to remember next fishbowl to prompt Unsullied and Not Defaulted Whiteness Heroes and Heras. <<

Thank you!

>>I tend to write to Tony's strengths, so in my Marvel/The Dresden Files crossover Tony hires people in Alternate Media Streams to get DIY info out to the people that need it, specifically designed using the stuff they can get for free or get paid to take away. He's still Tony, he's just experiencing new ways of being a futurist.<<

See, that's the thing that annoys me about the mainstream: they keep trying to make Tony do all the shit he isn't good at. He shouldn't have to, because he has people for that. Consequently I have notes for a scene where it turns out that Stark Tower doesn't have a nursing lounge, and Tony is like, "So this is a thing. A thing we're supposed to have. Why do we not have the thing? I shouldn't have to think of all the stuff myself, I have people for this! They are supposed to find all the competitive perks and make sure Stark Industries offers them."

>>Currently, good characters doing not the right things canonically is providing the challenge of writing them discovering the teachable moment. Black Panther restored my confidence that directors can do the work and get it on the screen!<<

I love that movie with a deep and fiery passion. :D

One of my goals in writing is to do things right the first time, so that my fans don't feel compelled to come along behind me and write fixits. So far so good -- I have people writing fanfic in Terramagne, and they're all writing new stuff.

Re: Thoughts

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

There were structural problems to Season 1. Honestly, they could have made better use of the Yes, a Black Man has cornered some Fencing and a Nightclub to launder it and probably some leverage over the naughty Good Citizens. But that wasn't a story they wanted.

Sadly, just as there's been Captain Kirk drift, certain people didn't get that Sherlock Holmes is really only rude (well, he is inconsiderate to Mrs. Hudson also) to powerful people who through moral hazard have endangered those weaker around them. QED rolled around in Arrogant Genius, as did plenty of other shows. (I wonder if that's not catching that Reed Richards, Doctor of Insufferable was a send up of Father Knows Best.)

Yes, I do use Tony and for that matter Janet Van Dyne as an excuse to have the results of very skilled people being paid to do cool things, like design Steve's kitchen without the 90 years of compromises. I assume that in canon there are teams of exceptional janitors who are well paid and they are why Stark Industries will always outdeliver OsCorp- They're the parents of the next wave of engineers.

It assuredly watered my crops.