>> I feel like a lot of the article's rules are based around tokenism <<
I agree.
>> it's a trend to include diverse characters so that the writers look like they're writing diversity, and then kill or torture them because it's "edgy" instead of like... Not being an ass and committing to it. <<
Apparently, most people can't see the things I do. I don't know why, the pattern repeats with every new trait. But they don't see it, so I spelled it out for anyone who needs a guide.
The way to avoid tokenism is twofold:
1) Instead of just one person with a trait, include several. They will be happier and more effective.
2) Put them in a position of some power. Then they can actually accomplish things.
>> But local trends are to write some pretty self-indulgent horror fic, which is fine until it becomes *the only thing* in most adult-oriented fiction. <<
Yeah, that's a problem.
>> There's also the headache of people arguing back and forth about a bait in switch in The Magicians (spoilers) <<
That show creeps me out. I do not like its power dynamics at all.
>> which led the audience to believe that - holy shit, a pedophile is going to be the main villain, how often does that happen? to... Oh no, the villain is *really* the kid he abused, who is now shady af in adulthood. <<
This does not surprise me.
>> Johnny was pissed about that. It's easy to see the logic and where that character development could have happened, but it is such a shitty thing to do to real life survivors. <<
The statistics seem to run about two-thirds of survivors breaking the cycle of abuse, and one-third continuing it. The threat is very real; it happens; and the outcome is horrible. You have people who were never given a chance at a healthy life, who are damaged in crippling ways, turning around and hurting other people. And then the "justice" system just punishes them more for being broken. Hell, they charge people who prostitution who are not legally old enough to consent to sex. >_< It fixes nothing.
>> Mainstream media sucks at showing positive portrayals of underdogs. <<
Sadly so.
>> I can sympathize with the article author for steering people in that direction, because there are not enough good representations at all, <<
Just because something is tempting, doesn't make it a good idea. Look at how Israel is treating Palestine. It's the Jews' first chance to be on top in centuries, and they're milking it for all it's worth. Tempting, absolutely, but that doesn't make it okay to build a wall with which to oppress people. And it's the same thing. It's PDSD on a society-wide scale.
>> but your solutions hit the problem where it lies. If you want something to be representative instead of entirely fluff or sadfic, you need to write the entire spectrum, or at least show pieces of it.<<
Yep.
>> A decent way to do that is to look at population estimates, too - this is what the population statistics are for this area, if you're basing it on a real-life setting, or else...<<
I totally use demographics to select character ethnicity, languages, etc. I tend to represent the more common disabilities within a group first. For something like handedness or sexuality, assume that the statistics hold true, but I only write it down if I notice it. I have a handful of lefties mentioned, but something like 10% of people are left-handed, so I know I haven't listed them all. Doesn't mean they aren't there.
>> model real-life and tweak based on how the culture and people likely would have developed and do world building. <<
When I set out to do worldbuilding, I build it from the ground up. This is apparently rare, but it's the only way to get something really solid. That means if someone asks me a question about how superpowers work in Terramagne, I can usually answer it or derive an answer, because I've thought about how these things work.
>> But it seems like the art of world building got lost among the habit of writing what's been shown to sell instead of creating genuinely new fiction. :/ <<
Alas, this is true.
>> And it can be hilarious to make an underdog character poke fun at various villainous forces they're at odds with in society. <<
Yep.
>> The thing is that those can feel excessive if the entire character is based around fighting those things, or the author sucks at balancing serious issues with humor. <<
What I like to do is wind them up and let them go, because it doesn't take long before such characters run into the logical consequences of their actions. This can be entertaining. I mean, look at Fortressa. She's already embarrassed herself by saving a jerk and by letting someone bribe her into stopping a nuclear reaction. How long do you think her "punch first, ask questions later" approach will last before she hits the wrong person?
>> At least locally, if you're familiar with the cues you can spot genderqueer people by style. They have their own clothing, hair, color schemes, etc. just like women and men do. Some people intentionally dress to fit their subculture, especially if they want to signal it to other people who might have it in common. There are a few people on the local campus who wear They/Them/Their and the Transgender/Nonbinary symbol on t-shirts.<<
Often true, yes. Do you really think superheroes will be less inclined? Especially after seeing that this subculture tends to plaster its affinities across the chest of the uniform? Queenie may not have named himself, but he certainly chose the triangle-pink color of his uniform.
>>There are differences. It's okay to *show* them, because how else are people supposed to see how to take someone *at face value* instead of thinking that trans people are invisible or that someone doesn't look masculine/feminine enough to count as a real guy/girl?<<
Not to mention Hefty liking pink and wearing gay unicorn t-shirts because he looks like a fireplug with a head, and if he didn't flag himself, nobody would know. He wants them to know gay men can look like that, be cops, and be happily married.
>> It's like "Dumbledore is gay" all over again. It doesn't count as representation if the audience needs to be informed after the fact. <<
I think that's the one justifiable example I've heard. No teen wants to hear about their principal's sex life. Uckies uckies uckies! It would be totally inappropriate to include that. (A gay student would have been advisable.) However, when someone proposed a wrong storyline, Rowling backed up Dumbledore instead of going along. That's a good thing.
>> So far Paranatural (with RJ), Monsterkind (with Loise), and PragueRace (various, but Untamo and Miko are the starring examples) have done good with including trans and nonbinary characters without making it a primary characteristic. PragueRace is great with that because it actually treats being trans or nonbinary as background traits that come through in other parts of the story. And I'm sure these authors aren't the only ones who do this.<<
Yay!
>> Good examples of trans characters do exist in comics... Just not what you'd find on bookstore shelves.<<
>> They're also missing a huge opportunity to let cis readers imagine how their lives would change if that happened to them.<<
That's the whole point of transformation fiction in furry genres. It's quite popular. The old SCABS series has some of the best, and it touches on everything from species dysphoria to gendershifting to ageshifting, plus of course discrimination.
>> Sure, you get the initial reactions that most people think about, but... Then what? Now you have a character who's used to being a different sex than the body they now inhabit. The extent of that change surpasses most people's ability to predict how they'd react to it - they're going to be blindsided and hunting for solutions for the most simple things that now no longer work for them, and discomfort aside. <<
Yeah, it's really rough. It's hard even if you want it, just from all the new stuff you have to learn. If you don't want it, then it's a nightmare.
>> That creates a ton of unique issues along with overlap for stuff that trans people deal with. You get to show a cis person what it's like to be treated as a different gender. You can even play with gender fluidity there, if the character happens to like aspects of their different body or has the ability to change it.<<
Yep.
Also parallel experiences occur -- like Calliope melting down over the realization that primal soups get treated pretty much like transfolk do. Ouch.
>> The phrasing in that one is confusing as heck to me. Transgender is an identity, not a fixed state of being... <<
Yes, exactly.
I think the author meant that it shouldn't count if the character is said to be transgender but spends a lot of time presenting as their assigned-at-birth gender. Trouble is, lots of transfolk do that. Cal uses Calvin as the secret identity, and that works -- but it doesn't negate the stress of faking a masculine identity. No wonder Vagary worries about this, but at least he understands that it's not his decision and he doesn't have a right to nag Cal about it. The one part of their relationship that is NOT fucked up is the gender dynamic, which is usually the most fucked up part of a trans/cis relationship.
>> It's also dismissive of gender fluid or multi-gender people who *might* be uncomfortable with their form some of the time but not all of the time or even not most of the time.<<
Good point.
Come to that, I think that Cal might be able to make some peace with the Calvin side, but I'm not sure this is the way to go about it.
>> Someone can identify as transgender but not live 99% of their life as the pinnacle of transgender experience. For some people it really matters; for others it doesn't.<<
Yep.
>> I imagine the same could be said to shapeshifters who routinely change their sex but whose gender may or may not change with it - and even if someone isn't transgender, routinely being mistaken for a different gender can have its own overlapping issues.<<
True.
Over in the Blueshift Troupers, they change sex sometimes. Their orientation and gender identity may stay the same, or may change. And that doesn't bother them! They just roll with it, same as they do with changes in ability or shape or color. Sometimes they get a trait they don't like, but they deal with it, because they know it isn't permanent. It's just an experience they're having.
... actually, that's how I cope with being morphlocked in a body that doesn't suit most of my preferences. I am not my body. It's just something I'm wearing for a while. Having it on doesn't make me any less myself, even though it doesn't fit all that well. I have been many things; I can deal with this.
And for that, people tell me I'm not "really" genderqueer. Well, if they want to be wrong, it's their choice. I'm not going to pick up the pieces if they break their reality tunnel when they see me jump up and hit things.
>> I get the feeling that the author has some idea of a transgender story that... isn't. There *is* no universal experience of transness. :/ And the experiences are there have a lot of overlap with other life experiences related to dissonance between expectations/desires and reality.<<
So very true.
>>They're going to end up with another queer subgenre at a different polarity than the *current* examples, and not a diverse spectrum.<<
That's what I think too.
It's one reason I love crowdfunding so much. When I have lots of fans giving me prompts, I'm not just writing from my own perspective anymore. I can incorporate the very real experiences of other people, who aren't all writers, and thus expand the range of representation.
I don't think it's an accident that I attract a lot of trans, genderqueer, and other QUILTBAG folks.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dancing_serpent
Thoughts
Date: 2018-01-11 07:19 am (UTC)I agree.
>> it's a trend to include diverse characters so that the writers look like they're writing diversity, and then kill or torture them because it's "edgy" instead of like... Not being an ass and committing to it. <<
Apparently, most people can't see the things I do. I don't know why, the pattern repeats with every new trait. But they don't see it, so I spelled it out for anyone who needs a guide.
The way to avoid tokenism is twofold:
1) Instead of just one person with a trait, include several. They will be happier and more effective.
2) Put them in a position of some power. Then they can actually accomplish things.
>> But local trends are to write some pretty self-indulgent horror fic, which is fine until it becomes *the only thing* in most adult-oriented fiction. <<
Yeah, that's a problem.
>> There's also the headache of people arguing back and forth about a bait in switch in The Magicians (spoilers) <<
That show creeps me out. I do not like its power dynamics at all.
>> which led the audience to believe that - holy shit, a pedophile is going to be the main villain, how often does that happen? to... Oh no, the villain is *really* the kid he abused, who is now shady af in adulthood. <<
This does not surprise me.
>> Johnny was pissed about that. It's easy to see the logic and where that character development could have happened, but it is such a shitty thing to do to real life survivors. <<
The statistics seem to run about two-thirds of survivors breaking the cycle of abuse, and one-third continuing it. The threat is very real; it happens; and the outcome is horrible. You have people who were never given a chance at a healthy life, who are damaged in crippling ways, turning around and hurting other people. And then the "justice" system just punishes them more for being broken. Hell, they charge people who prostitution who are not legally old enough to consent to sex. >_< It fixes nothing.
>> Mainstream media sucks at showing positive portrayals of underdogs. <<
Sadly so.
>> I can sympathize with the article author for steering people in that direction, because there are not enough good representations at all, <<
Just because something is tempting, doesn't make it a good idea. Look at how Israel is treating Palestine. It's the Jews' first chance to be on top in centuries, and they're milking it for all it's worth. Tempting, absolutely, but that doesn't make it okay to build a wall with which to oppress people. And it's the same thing. It's PDSD on a society-wide scale.
>> but your solutions hit the problem where it lies. If you want something to be representative instead of entirely fluff or sadfic, you need to write the entire spectrum, or at least show pieces of it.<<
Yep.
>> A decent way to do that is to look at population estimates, too - this is what the population statistics are for this area, if you're basing it on a real-life setting, or else...<<
I totally use demographics to select character ethnicity, languages, etc. I tend to represent the more common disabilities within a group first. For something like handedness or sexuality, assume that the statistics hold true, but I only write it down if I notice it. I have a handful of lefties mentioned, but something like 10% of people are left-handed, so I know I haven't listed them all. Doesn't mean they aren't there.
>> model real-life and tweak based on how the culture and people likely would have developed and do world building. <<
When I set out to do worldbuilding, I build it from the ground up. This is apparently rare, but it's the only way to get something really solid. That means if someone asks me a question about how superpowers work in Terramagne, I can usually answer it or derive an answer, because I've thought about how these things work.
>> But it seems like the art of world building got lost among the habit of writing what's been shown to sell instead of creating genuinely new fiction. :/ <<
Alas, this is true.
>> And it can be hilarious to make an underdog character poke fun at various villainous forces they're at odds with in society. <<
Yep.
>> The thing is that those can feel excessive if the entire character is based around fighting those things, or the author sucks at balancing serious issues with humor. <<
What I like to do is wind them up and let them go, because it doesn't take long before such characters run into the logical consequences of their actions. This can be entertaining. I mean, look at Fortressa. She's already embarrassed herself by saving a jerk and by letting someone bribe her into stopping a nuclear reaction. How long do you think her "punch first, ask questions later" approach will last before she hits the wrong person?
>> At least locally, if you're familiar with the cues you can spot genderqueer people by style. They have their own clothing, hair, color schemes, etc. just like women and men do. Some people intentionally dress to fit their subculture, especially if they want to signal it to other people who might have it in common. There are a few people on the local campus who wear They/Them/Their and the Transgender/Nonbinary symbol on t-shirts.<<
Often true, yes. Do you really think superheroes will be less inclined? Especially after seeing that this subculture tends to plaster its affinities across the chest of the uniform? Queenie may not have named himself, but he certainly chose the triangle-pink color of his uniform.
>>There are differences. It's okay to *show* them, because how else are people supposed to see how to take someone *at face value* instead of thinking that trans people are invisible or that someone doesn't look masculine/feminine enough to count as a real guy/girl?<<
Not to mention Hefty liking pink and wearing gay unicorn t-shirts because he looks like a fireplug with a head, and if he didn't flag himself, nobody would know. He wants them to know gay men can look like that, be cops, and be happily married.
>> It's like "Dumbledore is gay" all over again. It doesn't count as representation if the audience needs to be informed after the fact. <<
I think that's the one justifiable example I've heard. No teen wants to hear about their principal's sex life. Uckies uckies uckies! It would be totally inappropriate to include that. (A gay student would have been advisable.) However, when someone proposed a wrong storyline, Rowling backed up Dumbledore instead of going along. That's a good thing.
>> So far Paranatural (with RJ), Monsterkind (with Loise), and PragueRace (various, but Untamo and Miko are the starring examples) have done good with including trans and nonbinary characters without making it a primary characteristic. PragueRace is great with that because it actually treats being trans or nonbinary as background traits that come through in other parts of the story. And I'm sure these authors aren't the only ones who do this.<<
Yay!
>> Good examples of trans characters do exist in comics... Just not what you'd find on bookstore shelves.<<
There are webcomics that are brilliant, like Young Protectors.
>> They're also missing a huge opportunity to let cis readers imagine how their lives would change if that happened to them.<<
That's the whole point of transformation fiction in furry genres. It's quite popular. The old SCABS series has some of the best, and it touches on everything from species dysphoria to gendershifting to ageshifting, plus of course discrimination.
>> Sure, you get the initial reactions that most people think about, but... Then what? Now you have a character who's used to being a different sex than the body they now inhabit. The extent of that change surpasses most people's ability to predict how they'd react to it - they're going to be blindsided and hunting for solutions for the most simple things that now no longer work for them, and discomfort aside. <<
Yeah, it's really rough. It's hard even if you want it, just from all the new stuff you have to learn. If you don't want it, then it's a nightmare.
>> That creates a ton of unique issues along with overlap for stuff that trans people deal with. You get to show a cis person what it's like to be treated as a different gender. You can even play with gender fluidity there, if the character happens to like aspects of their different body or has the ability to change it.<<
Yep.
Also parallel experiences occur -- like Calliope melting down over the realization that primal soups get treated pretty much like transfolk do. Ouch.
>> The phrasing in that one is confusing as heck to me. Transgender is an identity, not a fixed state of being... <<
Yes, exactly.
I think the author meant that it shouldn't count if the character is said to be transgender but spends a lot of time presenting as their assigned-at-birth gender. Trouble is, lots of transfolk do that. Cal uses Calvin as the secret identity, and that works -- but it doesn't negate the stress of faking a masculine identity. No wonder Vagary worries about this, but at least he understands that it's not his decision and he doesn't have a right to nag Cal about it. The one part of their relationship that is NOT fucked up is the gender dynamic, which is usually the most fucked up part of a trans/cis relationship.
>> It's also dismissive of gender fluid or multi-gender people who *might* be uncomfortable with their form some of the time but not all of the time or even not most of the time.<<
Good point.
Come to that, I think that Cal might be able to make some peace with the Calvin side, but I'm not sure this is the way to go about it.
>> Someone can identify as transgender but not live 99% of their life as the pinnacle of transgender experience. For some people it really matters; for others it doesn't.<<
Yep.
>> I imagine the same could be said to shapeshifters who routinely change their sex but whose gender may or may not change with it - and even if someone isn't transgender, routinely being mistaken for a different gender can have its own overlapping issues.<<
True.
Over in the Blueshift Troupers, they change sex sometimes. Their orientation and gender identity may stay the same, or may change. And that doesn't bother them! They just roll with it, same as they do with changes in ability or shape or color. Sometimes they get a trait they don't like, but they deal with it, because they know it isn't permanent. It's just an experience they're having.
... actually, that's how I cope with being morphlocked in a body that doesn't suit most of my preferences. I am not my body. It's just something I'm wearing for a while. Having it on doesn't make me any less myself, even though it doesn't fit all that well. I have been many things; I can deal with this.
And for that, people tell me I'm not "really" genderqueer. Well, if they want to be wrong, it's their choice. I'm not going to pick up the pieces if they break their reality tunnel when they see me jump up and hit things.
>> I get the feeling that the author has some idea of a transgender story that... isn't. There *is* no universal experience of transness. :/ And the experiences are there have a lot of overlap with other life experiences related to dissonance between expectations/desires and reality.<<
So very true.
>>They're going to end up with another queer subgenre at a different polarity than the *current* examples, and not a diverse spectrum.<<
That's what I think too.
It's one reason I love crowdfunding so much. When I have lots of fans giving me prompts, I'm not just writing from my own perspective anymore. I can incorporate the very real experiences of other people, who aren't all writers, and thus expand the range of representation.
I don't think it's an accident that I attract a lot of trans, genderqueer, and other QUILTBAG folks.