Bust of Lincoln Destroyed

[ysabetwordsmith]

So this happened. 

The same principle behind this leads to this and this.

I told you so.  I have been saying and saying that when a society starts pulling down statues, it tends to mushroom, because people get it in their heads they can destroy all the art they dislike.  Sure it's tempting.  Everybody loves to pull down something they hate and stomp on it.  That's very gratifying.  But it's a bad idea because it destroys the past and then nobody has nice things for a long time.  It also sucks when other people pull down stuff that YOU like just because THEY don't, and there is probably not one piece of art on the planet which is liked by everyone.  

Seriously, people, stop doing this shit.  Unpopular art can be moved to a place where it won't annoy folks, but destroying it is counter-civilization.

Comments

[mirrorofsmoke]

Wait wait. Are you saying that destroying Confederate statues is a bad idea? Because I live in Tennessee/we live in Tennessee, and we think it's a good idea. The Confederacy doesn't deserve symbols. Not trying to debate, just seeking clarification.

[conuly]

Most of those statues aren't being destroyed anyway. They're being put in museums with the appropriate context.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

I feel that destroying any art is a bad idea. It encourages destruction in general, and the idea that it's okay to break things you disagree with. This tends to spread because people like and dislike different things. Art comes into and out of fashion. That's normal, and it's a good thing. Used to be, Confederate art was really popular. Right now, some people hate it and want to destroy it, while others still love it and want to keep it. So now everyone is fighting over the art, which I do not see improving the social climate.

Also destroying art is an insult to the artist, who put many hours of hard work into creating something for the public to enjoy. Once it's gone, it's gone, you can't get it back; and that's sad. We often look at the remains of broken Greek statues and wish people hadn't destroyed those. Will our Confederate monuments someday be reduced to a scattering of arms and feet and fragmentary inscriptions? That's sad too.

Art that is no longer wanted by a majority as public art in city parks or streets should be moved to a statue park or museum, or sold to collectors, so that those who want it may still enjoy it while it will no longer annoy those who dislike it. I'm not really in favor of removing monuments -- I prefer to add new ones in counterbalance -- but it's better than destroying them. Public art should generally reflect the personality of its place, which can change over time. It's okay to change the art on public display. But destroying art has unfortunate consequences, which are rapidly emerging.

I'm not fond of the Confederacy. I greatly oppose slavery, including its modern versions. However, that is part of American history and my family's history, and I don't want to lose that reminder of what has gone before.

[antisocialite_forum]

>> Unpopular art can be moved to a place where it won't annoy folks <<

And given a description plate for *why* it was moved. History is important. Erasing it doesn't go well. If people could attach a reason why X is bad to the art they hate, then they have a better chance of others knowing *why* it was bad and avoiding the same mistakes.

But I don't know how easy it is in most places for people to get statues moved that they don't like. I imagine it's a lot easier with things that are still glorified, because people in power to move those who also *like* them probably won't want them destroyed, but might protest the addition of any description plate on why it was moved.

- S.

[mirrorofsmoke]

See, I'd be okay with description plates too. Just something that'd make people realize why glorifying these men is a bad idea.

I mean, people in our hometown literally walk around talking about how the South will rise again. It's pretty creepy, tbqh.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>And given a description plate for *why* it was moved. History is important. Erasing it doesn't go well. If people could attach a reason why X is bad to the art they hate, then they have a better chance of others knowing *why* it was bad and avoiding the same mistakes.<<

I agree. This is also a good solution for leaving old monuments where they are, just changing the context. Imagine if things got updated every 50-100 years, then people could read history and its interpretations from beginning to current. I've seen a few examples of this and it is awesome.

>>But I don't know how easy it is in most places for people to get statues moved that they don't like.<<

Very easy in some places, difficult or impossible in others. And that gives us a range of examples to study what works and what does not. I am firmly on the side of the handful of cities that have been working this problem for decades and pretty much solved it by updating their public art a little bit at a time. People get used to that and don't fuss much over it now. So far the high-water mark goes to Richmond, Virginia. \o/

>> I imagine it's a lot easier with things that are still glorified, because people in power to move those who also *like* them probably won't want them destroyed, but might protest the addition of any description plate on why it was moved. <<

You can't please everyone, and right now the fight over statues seems to be pleasing no one. :/

[lone_cat]

What I'm finding from other sources says "burned" and "vandalized", not "destroyed".

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Abe-Lincoln-Statue-Burned-on-Chicagos-South-Side-440897443.html
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/17/lincoln-bust-vandalized/
http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-politics/674297/

(Both NBC and CBS links have annoying autoplay videos)

Other reports indicate that the statue had been in disrepair for some time, and has been vandalized many times over its history.

http://www.snopes.com/lincoln-bust-vandalized-confederate/
http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/The-Sad-Neglected-Lincoln-Bust-of-Englewood-203026621.html (opinion piece from 2013)
http://www.chicagonow.com/interesting-chicago/2014/09/can-the-lincoln-bust-be-saved-and-restored/ (originally published in 2014)

[technoshaman]

Breitbart? Really, Ysabet?

Truth is we don't know who did it.

As for the Confed memorials, they were cheap ass Yankee tin (yes!) and they were gonna need to come down soon anyway. The Union memorials are made of sterner stuff; Mr. Lincoln there can be cleaned. I'd rather the people take out their anger on that cheap tin than the Actual Nazis(tm) - not because the Nazis don't deserve it, but because that would trigger a bloodbath, the last thing either of us wants.

I'm out of words. I'm out of *brain*. I just wanna surround these asshats and scream and sing at them until they break down in tears and lay down their arms, and then offer them a good meal of kosher soul food (see my post elsebook) and see if I can get my Southern world to collide with the rest of my worlds as well as I've gotten my biker people and my filker people to talk to one another.

Shalom Shabbat, Y'all. Take care of the Nazis, and then take care of the Nazis.

[chanter1944]

I knew there was a reason I <3ed you, Joyful Bear. You've just demonstrated that reason yet again, in about three ways. :)

[we_are_spc]

One of mhy friends says she believes they can be healed. One a t a time. One, at, a, time. Maybe if we heal one, they mighta turn around and heal one of their own...do yolu realize what that would do? Exponentially over time?

I just...*sighs* I'm starting to be able to feel things I couldn't before magic work, and the unrest makes me want to cry, though it took me a minute to figure out tha that's what this vague sense of foreboding was. *sighs*

-Fallon~

[lone_cat]

Mr. Lincoln there can be cleaned

IMO, it would be a fitting irony if this incident resulted in the bust being cleaned and restored, to the extent that it can be.

[siliconshaman]

Yeah.. we tried that during our Civil war when the Roundheads pulled down all symbols of the monarchy.

That did not end well. People lost their heads, literally.

Nowadays we keep the statues, and change the plaques. Context is everything.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm just too much a fan of palimpsest history to approve tearing out pages from it.

[we_are_spc]

...DId we not just say this in our comment earlier? Sad. SO sad. :(

(And yes, I will get to the rest of that later becaused good points are good and I want to respond when I can brain. TOday was a loss for school work, and instead of being OK with it, I'm stressing because now I have to cram school work into tomorrow because I have somewhere to be on Sunday. :(

-Fallon~

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

It is sad.

It's also frustrating when I warn people that what they're doing is about to cause a problem, and they do it anyway, and are surprised when it causes a problem. I feel like I'm trying to convince toddlers not to throw rocks in the air, you know? Because the rocks will come right back down and conk someone on the head and then there will be blood and tears everywhere. >_<

*hugs* I'm sorry that school is being so hard on you too. That sucks.

[cmcmck]

As a historian, I get very uncomfortable with a certain sort of intellectual wishing to pretend that the past never happened.

The answer is education, not destruction.

Oh and by the way, I'm not a Tory, but a left radical socialist before anyone asks!

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith]

That's how I feel.

The urge to destroy is part of human nature. But if you look at history, you can see that it is almost always a terrible idea. People have these strong feelings, and that's fine, but we need better ways to express them. We also need more effective ways to solve the problems that cause them, so we don't wind up in this mess.

[gingicat]

Trust me, no-one injured by the statues thinks that the history behind them should be erased. But take them off the giant pedestals, for heavens' sakes.

[serpentine]

The problem with those statues is not that they are history, but that a lot of them were put up in order to distort history and to popularize the idea of the Lost Cause.

[starfallhaven]

Myep. They were cheaply made and mass-produced and distributed during the era of Jim Crow. They're not even historical or particularly artistic.

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith]

That too is either history, or current events, depending on how far you feel race relations have evolved in this country. I wish it were far enough in the past that people no longer got upset over it, but we're not there yet. Hence my efforts to promote diversity, because I don't think that removing statues is going to fix underlying problems.

[thewayne]

I'd have to say this is not terribly surprising, especially in light of those people pulling down that one statue then pulling a Spartacus moment at the courthouse.

My wife told me about an article that I did not see about one community relocating Confederate statues to their Confederate cemetery. I thought that was an excellent idea. I'd also support perhaps moving them as appropriate to civil war battle ground parks, 'as appropriate' being if there are also statuary of significant Yankee figures.

There are Southerners who believe that the war wasn't about slavery, it was about state's rights. There is a smidgen of truth to that, but it's such a small amount that it's vastly blown away by the slavery issue. This country, and a lot of the world, was founded on the backs of slaves, but was working its way off of that. And by the early 1800's, most of the world was done with it. We were one of the last holdouts, and that was because of the South.

The thing that I did not know was how vast the number of statues that were made in the early 20th century, all to intimidate and suppress voting rights.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>I'd have to say this is not terribly surprising, especially in light of those people pulling down that one statue then pulling a Spartacus moment at the courthouse.<<

History indicates that one a civilization starts pulling down statues or other art, the effects tend to spread rapidly and widely. It's difficult or impossible to stop with just one, and it rarely stops with just the original target. This is why we have only fragments from many previous civilizations. The process is quite obvious and consistent, with few exceptions, and yet for some reason people still think they can pull down just the art that they dislike, without losing anything they want to keep that someone else dislikes.

>>My wife told me about an article that I did not see about one community relocating Confederate statues to their Confederate cemetery. I thought that was an excellent idea.<<

I agree.

>> I'd also support perhaps moving them as appropriate to civil war battle ground parks, 'as appropriate' being if there are also statuary of significant Yankee figures.<<

On a two-sided battlefield, it is to be preferred if both sides are represented, but that's uncommon. Usually the side the locals prefer is favored, which is typically but not always the winner. You go to a Civil War site in the north, you get the Yankee perspective; in the south, you get the Rebel perspective. For best results, research widely.

I think statue parks are also an acceptable compromise. It's pretty awesome to have a large number of statues in one area. That's convenient for tourists to view, and also for the park to offer tour guides. You could even have different themes: a Great Cause talk, a war history talk, an art history talk, a Civil Rights talk, etc.

>>There are Southerners who believe that the war wasn't about slavery, it was about state's rights. <<

These two things are equally true. If it hadn't been about state rights, the Southerners could've kept on doing what they pleased, or left the Union, free to make their own decisions. But slavery was the sticking point where the Union felt it had a right to force other people to obey, just as the South felt it had a right to force black people into slavery. Pretty ironic. If it hadn't been about slavery, it probably would've been over something else. When one group thinks they have a nation and the other a confederacy, that's going to start a major argument sooner or later.

[krait]

My horse-loving twelve-year-old self would like to suggest that any statues of mounted Confederates should be edited, not removed entirely: just take the dude away, and leave the horse! (Remove any dedications/plaques about the dude, too, naturally.)

Who wouldn't want a nice life-sized bronze horse statue as public adornment?

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm not really a fan of modifying art either. Consider how annoyed modern audiences are by edits made to what we now consider classic works.