Strong Female Characters

[ysabetwordsmith]

This article asks "What Do You Mean When You Say You Want Strong Female Characters?"

I want some combination of:
* She has a female body and/or feminine gender identity.
* She thinks with her brain, not with her crotch.  
** Consequently if a man is an asshole, she will notice this and reject him accordingly, not fall in love with him and encourage him to treat her like a doormat.
** Consequently if the villain underestimates her, he will be painfully surprised by her competence.
* She is physically fit/muscular.
* She is good with hand-to-hand combat and/or weapons.
* If she is a mother, gods help anyone who threatens her children.  Do not expect pregnancy or recent childbirth to render her completely helpless either.
* She can solve challenges herself, without requiring rescue by some guy.
** Consequently this affects the kind of relationships she is likely to have with male characters.  Those who can accept her agency are eligible for possible friendship or romance.  Those who cannot are promptly classified as road hazards.  It also opens the door for gentlemen-in-distress if so desired.
** Consequently she has a good awareness of her own strengths and weaknesses, so is not plagued by self-doubt or recrimination implying that she is somehow not a real woman or there is something wrong with her for being an effective human being.
* She is comfortable with her gender expression, whether that is tomboyish or feminine or some combination thereof.  
* She readily spots mistakes made by opponents and takes advantage of them.  In order to pose a real threat to her, a villain must be quite formidable and/or must attack her obliquely by threatening someone/something she cares about.  Foolish or careless villains will fare no better than one-hit minions.
** Consequently the plot complexity and scope tend to be greater.
* If she has domestic skills or other conventionally feminine traits, she is confident about them and uses them appropriately.  She is not trying to be a man (that's for strong genderqueer characters, a different category).  She may indeed use these to carry the day, often in ways that a villain would not expect and may find it difficult or impossible to parry.
* She is secure in her role and does not feel compelled to squash other female characters to make herself look more important or powerful.  She is powerful in some way(s) and uses it appropriately rather than waving it around like a stick of firewood.

So, that's what I'm thinking of when I ask for strong female characters.  More like that.

What kinds of things do you like to see in strong female characters?  Which of my female characters do you like in regards to this discussion, and why?

Comments

[aldersprig]

Hrrm. This one elicits a strong emotional response in me that's hard to get around to think clearly.

I wish I could find the article that said, essentially, it's okay, now, for women characters to be flawed. Because I wouldn't find the character up there very relatable, anymore than Conan. Fun wish fulfillment, but not someone I go back to again and again.

I like characters who, despite flaws, fears, and sometimes thinking with their gonads, tough on through and win the day. For me, it's like the old line about courage not being having no fear, it's going on despite the fear: strength is moving on despite your weaknesses.

Of course, I don't think I've been subjected to all that much fiction with fluffy female characters with no strength, either, so I'm coming from a position of comfort. Mercedes Lackey's women were some of the first characters I have strong memories of reading (and Heinlein's, but that's another story).

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

That list has some interesting points but I don't know if I'd much like the character that comes out of it. I am interested in female characters who know their own mind, for sure. But I am not interested in characters who are strong, capable and sorted and sane. I am enormously fond of one of my protagonists but my she has a cold and selfish streak. She also has a tendency of trying to please the wrong people. And she has the cheek to have an abortion, at considerable risk to herself, with *no regrets whatsoever* - I would say even joy, she hates her late husband so much.

The other one has black and white views, shuts herself off from people (she has to, given what she has survived) and refuses to say some simple words that would ease her friend's tormented conscience because she believes it is not right to lie. She also ends up falling for The Wrong Man and makes a mess of her life.

I'm fond of these ladies - I don't care if they are not cartoon heroes. I don't want them to be.

[fayanora.livejournal.com]

I think one can have the characteristics in ysabet's list and still have issues. My character Nokwahl is strong, knows her own mind, etc. etc. but is also scarred for life from a childhood trauma. I'm pretty sure she has some form of PTSD. She struggles with it, but her training helps her deal with it and still be strong.

*Blinks* You just gave me a great idea that should help me figure out the plot of my next Nokwahl novel: give Nokwahl something truly challenging. Did that in the first novel, but she got off a bit easy in the second.

I am enormously fond of one of my protagonists but my she has a cold and selfish streak.

Reminds me of my Lyria Spellspinner character. She's the protagonist, but she's not good. Nor is she evil. She's a dark sorceress with aspirations of achieving godhood (for the sake of becoming a Creator and making her own little multiverse). But she avoids most of the villain cliches and ends up grudgingly working for the side of good in the novel because it'd be pretty hard to achieve her goals if some evil god goes and destroys the multiverse before she can achieve them.

But still, she has some genuine goodness in her. And gods help you if you threaten her family, however unusual they may be. (Put this way: her family is stranger than the Addams family and the Munsters combined, and is due to get even stranger soon.)

*Thinks* Another protagonist, Lolita Leigh Smith, is smart and funny and fun to work with, but her pranks on people can get a little carried away. (She made someone think he'd killed her, once.) Her best friend B (gods help you if you call her Beverly) is much the same.
One of their friends, a girl nicknamed Sugar, used to be a bully. And the girl nicknamed Spice is painfully shy and not very self-confident.

I think ysabet would agree that having a few flaws make characters better.

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I did specify "some combination of" the above traits. I don't expect characters to be perfect. I like interesting flaws. I simply don't want to spend time with people who make stupid mistakes, and some of the tropes relating to "strong female characters" just drive me nuts.

[fayanora.livejournal.com]

The title character of my Nokwahl Viiahdah series fits that pretty well. She's a "perfect hermaphrodite," like all her species, but looks and acts female, and female pronouns are used with her. The only difference is, she has what I think could be a form of PTSD from a traumatic childhood experience, but it doesn't effect her confidence; along with her telepathic Gift of projective empathy, she got training from the Shao'Bahn Order that allowed her to turn that pain into a weapon. She and other Shao'Bahn would consider that traumatic childhood experience to be like the fire that forges iron into steel.

Also, my Lyria Spellspinner character fits this perfectly as well. She has no "domestic" skills to speak of, leaving cooking and cleaning, etc, to her servants, but she has a brilliant mind and is clever, cunning, and powerful enough that it does indeed take a really powerful foe to challenge her. And yes... she is a mother. She didn't carry her children in her womb, but she is a mother. And gods help anyone who threatens her family. You threaten Lyria's family, you'd better hope she's feeling merciful enough to merely kill you. Her specialty in magic is modifying the souls of objects and people. With sufficient reason and preparation, she can come up with punishments that even the Greek gods would think were too harsh.

Because of her power level and intelligence, her only real challengers in the book will be actual living GODS. And creatures almost as powerful as gods.

* She can solve challenges herself, without requiring rescue by some guy.
** Consequently this affects the kind of relationships she is likely to have with male characters. Those who can accept her agency are eligible for possible friendship or romance. Those who cannot are promptly classified as road hazards. It also opens the door for gentlemen-in-distress if so desired.

Nokwahl: So far has dated her partner and fellow detective, Alex Davison. But that was in the past, even in the book. I don't know why they broke up. Maybe they just decided they didn't feel strongly enough to be more than close friends.

Anyway, then she goes on to date a female human, Samantha Dryson, who also happens to be otherkin (she feels more like one of Nokwahl's species).

As to why she doesn't date within her own species... well, she lives on a space station orbiting Earth. There aren't that many of her people there.

Lyria: I have plans for Lyria and Forizano Lysvalo (the crippled scholar she healed and hired as a tutor for her daughter Meriel) to fall in love with one another. But it's not going to be easy getting to that point. Lyria is a bit antisocial, due to her past experiences in life.

* She is secure in her role and does not feel compelled to squash other female characters to make herself look more important or powerful. She is powerful in some way(s) and uses it appropriately rather than waving it around like a stick of firewood.

Definitely applies to both Nokwahl and Lyria. If anything, Lyria is a source of strong female characters. Even though a child, Meriel is a strong female character. And Lyria's second in command is Serret Antashik, an olive-skinned woman who, as one of Lyria's Zaharat soldiers, is of a superior race of humans made from the corpses of regular humans.

Lyria has been to Earth, too, so she may have read "Frankenstein." I imagine her reaction to the book would be, "Stupid men, can't do anything right." (With a grin, though, because she's not actually sexist against men.)

[fayanora.livejournal.com]

So, that's what I'm thinking of when I ask for strong female characters. More like that.

Have you read Seanan McGuire's Toby Daye books? It's about October Daye, a half-faerie changeling woman who is a knight for her lord (a cool guy, totally treats Toby as an equal and as a family member) and is also a private detective. First one in the series is "Rosemary and Rue."

I think you'd also like the Newsflesh series by Mira Grant (pseudonym for Seanan McGuire) which starts with "Feed." Georgia "George" Mason is a kick-ass female character. I have some strong suspicions that she and her brother Shaun are a little closer than brother and sister, if you catch my drift, but... well, okay, that's not really relevant. I just like mentioning it.

Oh, wait, no it is actually relevant. Because though George and Shaun are a team, George is the stronger character. In fact, her brother is a smidge on the pathetic side without her. But only a smidge. It's like they're actually one person in two bodies, and George is the better 2/3rds.

So I guess I like seeing the same things you do in strong female characters.

Oh yeah, a sense of humor is great too. I love humor, and I always make sure to put humor in even the darkest, most serious fiction. (Well, anything longer than a short story, anyway.)

Oh, and no character of mine, regardless of gender, should be afraid to cry if the situation calls for it.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>>First one in the series is "Rosemary and Rue."<<

I've read that one, though nothing further.

>>It's like they're actually one person in two bodies, and George is the better 2/3rds.<<

That sounds kind of cool.

>>Oh yeah, a sense of humor is great too. I love humor, and I always make sure to put humor in even the darkest, most serious fiction.<<

Agreed.

[kitrona.livejournal.com]

I love Seanan's writing. And music, etc. :)

[shadows-gallery.livejournal.com]

Ooh, thank you for this! I was just contemplating how to write my main female protagonists in aeternal_eckho as strong, independent women while still keeping them interesting and real.

I think a good, three dimensional character has a mixture of strength and vulnerability that gets her through her day-to-day struggles, but not so easily that it's not a challenge. And I think she grows and evolves as she faces those challenges both within and without.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I enjoy looking for what my characters do well or poorly, where their challenges lie. Sometimes there's a broad field of skills they suck at -- Fala is good at most wilderness skills but poor at most domestic skills. Other times there will be a particular skill within a favored field that the character just isn't as good at. Then again, a character who is highly competent may run into problems with other people refusing to acknowledge her skills and/or pestering her about something. Another interesting example is when a skill or other resource suddenly declines; Shahana used to have access to a great deal more divine magic than she does now, and has had to find ways of compensating.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I tend to write strong women. But, they will throw real love away with both hands, in favor of pursuing obsession. (this is true of male characters as well)

Mine tend to be exceptionally icy. "Kill them then, and let's be off," one says when her man is merely threatening. She later burns her initials into her twin brother's cerebral cortex, rendering him a vegetable, and laughs while doing it. (he deserves it)

I had one where the character damn near did a John Wayne drawl with the words "A butch has to do what a butch has to do." before going off to kill zombies. (But it's clear that her more feminine wife runs the whole shebang)

I want my women smart. Scary-smart if possible. If they are stupid, it should be for a reason, or feigned. (My Maid Marion used a guileless and simple attitude to fool the men around her, which let her learn a lot) I want them unafraid, or feeling the fear and doing it anyway. I want them to carry out their responsibilities to themselves and others in the best way they can.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a good spread to me.

I must say, I admire icy warrior-women. "Kill them and let's go" is a great policy for many situations where dithering is just going to waste time and blood. I am particularly entertained when she walks blithely through carnage that leaves less-strong men heaving their guts out. Some of the pissing contests during crime scenes in Anita Blake are favorites for this reason.

Re: Yes...

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I love Anita Blake when she is working and not angsting.

Zara is not exactly a warrior. She's a dilettante, a netrunner called the Technomancer. She's just ruthless.

[westrider.livejournal.com]

I think that for me, it comes down to two broad categories.

The first in Competence. She should be genuinely good at whatever she does. Difficulty with things outside her main area of focus is fine, and pretty much necessary to avoid a Mary Sue, but whatever her thing is that she does, she should do it well.

This can apply to things outside of typical "Heroic" endeavors, too. Ekaterin from the Vorkosigan Saga particularly comes to mind here. Her things are design and (offscreen in the last couple of books) managing her family. Neither of these are easy tasks (remember, those are Miles's kids she's helping to raise), and by all accounts she does both splendidly.

The second, I'll call Self Determination for the moment, since I think there's a better term for it, but it's not coming to mind right now.

By this, I mean that she figures out what she wants and doesn't let herself be threatened, coerced, or forced away from it, whether by trickery, physical force, or mental/emotional violence.

Doesn't mean she'll stick with it come Hell or High Water, I'm not talking about blind stubbornness here. If someone can clearly explain why her current goal is actually a really bad idea, she should be open to that.

This is also open to temporary slips, times where she does get forced away from her path, as long as that's just increasing tension in the story, and she overcomes it herself by the end of the tale.

Again turning to Exaterin, once she managed to fight mostly clear of the mindfucks resulting from 10 years of marriage to Tien, she was able to figure out what she wanted and overcome some pretty serious obstacles (up to and including assassination attempts) to get it. She's been mostly offscreen of late, but by all indications, she's not letting Miles railroad her anywhere either.

Come to think of it, both of those pretty much cover what I want to see from a Strong Male Character, too.

Note also that either or both of those can be missing and still result in a good character, it's just not going to be a strong Hera/Hero. Losing the first generally results in Comic Relief, while losing the second creates a victim or tragic figure.

[westrider.livejournal.com]

Just remembered one more thing this made me think of: Delilah in Jennifer Roberson's Sword Dancer series. A major part of that series is Del dealing with the fallout from deciding that Strong=Masculine, and her struggle to find a form a strength that does not deny her femininity.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I've read some of those; that's a good point.

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>>The second, I'll call Self Determination for the moment, since I think there's a better term for it, but it's not coming to mind right now.<<

That sounds like agency: a character's capacity to influence the action of a story. Without agency, a character is powerless -- and largely pointless. A major fault in many portrayals of female characters is lack of agency.

Re: Hmm...

[westrider.livejournal.com]

Agency. Yeah, that'll do. Not sure if it was exactly what I was trying to think of, but it covers the territory.

Re: Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I ran a quick search on character agency, and found ...

"Women With Agency"
"Agents of Their Own Salvation"
"Plot, Agency, and Emotion"
"Female Agency and Pleasure in 2010 Movies"

Re: Hmm...

[westrider.livejournal.com]

Gonna have to go through those tomorrow. Bedtime now.

Re: Hmm...

[westrider.livejournal.com]

Woke up and got around to reading through these. Thanks!

I particularly like the Agents of Their Own Salvation piece, for not just discussing the problem, but providing a clearly explained and broken down example of how to do it right.

Reminded me of the Buffy Episode I re-watched last night (Wrecked, from Season 6). Dawn, having just broken her arm in a car crash, gets attacked by a Demon, but still keeps fighting back, and even though she's clearly overmatched and losing, is still affecting the Demon with her attacks, slowing it down enough that it doesn't manage to kill her before Buffy gets there to save her.

It was also nice in that the one Male Protagonist in that sequence (Spike) just acts as a Support Character, getting Dawn clear of the action while Buffy and Willow take down the Demon.

Re: Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>>I particularly like the Agents of Their Own Salvation piece, for not just discussing the problem, but providing a clearly explained and broken down example of how to do it right.<<

Agreed.

>>Reminded me of the Buffy Episode I re-watched last night (Wrecked, from Season 6). Dawn, having just broken her arm in a car crash, gets attacked by a Demon, but still keeps fighting back, and even though she's clearly overmatched and losing, is still affecting the Demon with her attacks, slowing it down enough that it doesn't manage to kill her before Buffy gets there to save her.<<

In fact, a good self-defense program teaches exactly that: if you're outmatched, there are still things you can do to discourage, to delay, to minimize damage. Every bit of that creates opportunities for something else to intervene so you can escape. But you absolutely must be able to keep your head during a conflict and strategize effectively.

>>It was also nice in that the one Male Protagonist in that sequence (Spike) just acts as a Support Character, getting Dawn clear of the action while Buffy and Willow take down the Demon.<<

Yes, I do enjoy that. One thing I like about "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is that Buffy is The Hera of this series. Other characters get episodes that focus on them, and get chances to do meaningful things -- but if Buffy's onstage, everyone else is usually support, and that includes the male characters. Heh, it's what made the "Jonathan" episode so funny.

Re: Hmm...

[westrider.livejournal.com]

I think you're the first person other than myself who's had anything positive to say about "Superstar". Usually I hear nothing but abuse for that episode.

Re: Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I loved that episode. It was the ultimate Marty Stu. It was so over-the-top that it was hilarious. (Swimsuit calendar. Hee!) Joss Whedon has an unparalleled gift for doing unique episodes; "Hush" and "Once More, With Feeling" are also in that category.

Re: Hmm...

[westrider.livejournal.com]

I'd also add "The Body" to that list. A few months before I got into Buffy, I was with my Stepfather when he died, and my main reaction watching that Episode was "Yeah, it was just like that." I've never run across any other work that captured and presented that experience so faithfully and completely. An absolute masterpiece.

Not just in and of itself, either. I've got the outline of a post in my head that I haven't gotten around to writing up about how the last scene, with the vampire, lays out the themes for the whole remainder of the show, particularly Season 6.

[paka.livejournal.com]

This might not be germane to the question but; I don't so much want to see strong female characters as to see strong characters who happen to be female.

I feel like so many comic and movie characters are presented from this male bias; A does amazing stuff, B does this other thing, and C is this miserable villain, and then we're obliged to have a girl on the team, so we get D in the group. The end result is that A, B and C don't have any particular reason they need to be male, but they're male; and D winds up having not much character other than her gender. I think it's like any other minority thing; the big reason for having a minority in your story isn't that they're a strong whatever, it's because portraying a world where nobody's ever female (except for the token character) is like portraying a world where gravity doesn't seem to work.

I really liked the example of Alien by contrast to the "motherhood" plot of Aliens; Ripley wasn't originally scripted as female, but the filmmakers thought it was an interesting idea. In Alien there's nothing Ripley does which is women-only; the only particular reason for the character to be female is that 50% of people are female.

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I think you get different stories if you look for places where gender matters than where it really doesn't. *chuckle* I have one batch where I actually generated character genders and races randomly. That was cool, and I may try it again some time.

[endlessrarities.livejournal.com]

I don't feel any need for strong female characters to be wielders of weapons or artists in combat. There's other ways to win a war, and if the society is one which is characterised by a male warrior elite, then I think it's perfectly possible for a woman to work within this world view and still come across as strong and determined.

I'm sure the medieval and ancient worlds were full of strong women who managed and organised without needing to strap on a sword. And yet their role tends to be downplayed and undervalued. Sad...