Why People Learn Not to Ask for Help

[ysabetwordsmith]

I came across this post today, illustrating a key reason why people learn not to ask for help: because when they do, they don't get it. Person A describes a frustrating situation and asks specific questions about how to solve certain parts of the problem. Person B says, no, those things aren't problems, you should be doing MORE of them not less, and take these steps to do more of them.

That is the opposite of help.


It's also very common. Most people are more interested in gratifying their urge to be helpful, or doing things their own way, or making money from an interaction, than they are in genuinely assisting another person's problem-solving process. This wastes time and energy which a problem-having person usually does not have to spare.

It doesn't take a whole lot of this bullshit to teach people that the cake is a lie, and no matter what the promises of "help" are, actual assistance is rarely if ever forthcoming. That just makes it harder to get anything done.

So if you're offering help, make sure it's something the other person really wants or needs. If you don't agree with the kind of help they want, just say, "I'm sorry, that doesn't sound like the kind of problem I can help with." Don't pretend you're helping if you want to make them like their problem, or want to solve a different problem than the one they asked for help on. Know your skills and your personality. Ideally, know the other person's too, and account for any differences.

Based on reactions I have observed, one of the most helpful responses seems to be: "I'm having a problem with X. How can I fix it?" "It sounds like X is causing trouble for you." (You may have to wait for them to stop going, "OMG thank you for recognizing that this is a real problem!") Then try to break down what exactly is going wrong and why, so that you-together can figure out how to fix or at least improve it. If you think they're trying to solve the wrong part of the problem? Just go through the process anyway. A thorough analysis will usually reveal the root cause. Then it's up to you and the person with the problem to decide whether any part of this is something you can work on together, or not.

Comments

oh, YEAH!

[dialecticdreamer]

First, the original question-- sounds young, 19-20 years old, VERY busy with education and /focused/ on that. GOOD! WHY push that person to add more pressure to their life by /dating/? Because that's when most people do so? SO WHAT?

Also, they seem to know how to balance their social time with their private time. GREAT for them! They'll need that skill their whole lives.

That being said, I certainly don't expect them to need the same amount or the same kind of socialization at 25 as they do at 20.

I got enough of the not-help "helping" from professionals, teachers and family to completely eff up my life and my brain for decades. Seriously. I don't even want to go into details without big sticky warning labels all over the thread.

BUT, it did allow me to figure out that what SOME people mean by "help" simply doesn't voice aloud the REST of what they're thinking/planning: HELP-me be more like THEY expect me to be.

No, thanks. Not for love, nor money.

Re: oh, YEAH!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> First, the original question-- sounds young, 19-20 years old, VERY busy with education and /focused/ on that. GOOD! <<

That's what I thought.

>> WHY push that person to add more pressure to their life by /dating/? Because that's when most people do so? SO WHAT? <<

Because when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Mental health professionals are trained to see problems, not diversity. This is one of the things that makes diverse people avoid them.

Introverts may need help in managing social things, but not the same kind of help as someone who feels isolated and lonely. Here the issue is, "How do I politely explain to people that my interactive needs are different from theirs, so they don't harass me and I don't hurt their feelings?" That is a perfectly mature thing to be concerned about. In my circle of friends, we have a phrase, "all peopled out," to indicate being out of spoons to deal with company. Doesn't mean somebody dislikes you, just that they need some solitude now.

So people wind up looking for help online where, if you hunt around enough, you can find somebody else who's had the same problem and look at how they solved it.

>> I got enough of the not-help "helping" from professionals, teachers and family to completely eff up my life and my brain for decades. <<

*hugs* My sympathies. Been there, done that, used the t-shirt to make Molotov wicks.

>> BUT, it did allow me to figure out that what SOME people mean by "help" simply doesn't voice aloud the REST of what they're thinking/planning: HELP-me be more like THEY expect me to be. <<

Yes, that's true.

Another thing that causes this kind of mistake has to do with something that took me years to learn: a solution that works for one person may not work for another, just because their personalities are different. Many things that work for highly-sociable people do not work for me. Many things that work for me, because I am social teflon, do not work for highly sociable people. I have learned to think about this carefully when I am giving advice, because sometimes people will ask, "What would you do?" and I'll just tell them -- I have to remember to follow with, "But that might not work for you, because you relate to people differently than I do."

[stardreamer]

In one of my online communities, we have a word for this: "helpiness". Helpiness bears the same relationship to help that truthiness bears to truth.

Also, note that sometimes this is a naked power play. Offer the person who needs help something that they don't need and won't help; offer it over and over again in order to elicit the refusal; then move on to, "But we want to HELP you! Why won't you let us HELP you?"

As I've gotten older, I've discovered that bluntly saying, "You're not answering the question I asked," can sometimes derail this trap.

[johnpalmer]

It's an interesting thing. From an advice column perspective, it seemed like the only possible answer. Which means that it was a really lousy question to choose to answer in an advice column. (Though the columnist may not have been given a choice.)

What makes it interesting for me is, if I was trying to help that person, I'd have to consider the question of not wanting closer relationships to be important, and be careful making sure that this is truly what the person wants. And I might well take the somewhat paternalistic attitude that *if* the person wants closeness, but is clearly and rationally opposed, then it's not time to explore that.

("Somewhat paternalistic" - I'm thinking I might know what's best, which might be greater closeness, and that the person might change their mind. But only *somewhat* because I'm willing to take them at their word, and put the question aside, not because I'm sure the person is correct about his or her needs, but because it's not my place to try to effect a change before they choose to make it.)

That's a model that works for me - I can't *ignore* that most people want close human contact. But I can ignore that it's not what a person is either seeking, or ready to seek, at this time. Thus, I can kinda say "Okay, I'm concerned about X, but you're not - can I help some not-X?"

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I'd have to consider the question of not wanting closer relationships to be important, and be careful making sure that this is truly what the person wants. <<

That makes sense, in person. It's also important to consider why they do or don't want certain things. As I mentioned elsewhere: Do you know anyone who is NOT boring? Would you like to hang out if people were interesting and the space were comfortable for you? Because often it's not a categorical mismatch but a specific one, only people bitch if you speak of the specifics, so you learn to say "I don't like social events" instead of "Loud flashy parties with boring people are not my thing, and that's all I'm ever offered, so I'd rather just stay home."

>> And I might well take the somewhat paternalistic attitude that *if* the person wants closeness, but is clearly and rationally opposed, then it's not time to explore that. <<

Forcing people to face things they are not ready to work on is a very efficient way of doing damage.

>> Thus, I can kinda say "Okay, I'm concerned about X, but you're not - can I help some not-X?" <<

I wish more people would do that.

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

Person A: Has anyone seen my glasses?

Person B: Now. When did you *last* have them?

Person A: Aaaaaaaaaaggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

*laugh*

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that can be frustrating.

It actually is a valid technique -- if you can remember the last time you were sure of having the lost item, it does narrow the search parameters -- but that's hard for many people to do.

It's often less stressful simply to retrace a recent path and search along it, and check the most common places where the item is usually found.

If you have fairies or a house that eats things, you should also: turn your back, ask for the item to be returned, and exchange search zones with another person. Then put away the 2-3 things you find that weren't turning up the last time you looked for those ...

Re: *laugh*

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

Or simply to answer, "No".

Because anything else is putting the burden back on the person who already has the problem. It's actually a really rude thing to say, now I think of it.

Re: *laugh*

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I usually say either, "No. Do you need me to come help search?", "The last time I saw them was X. Have you already looked there? Where do you want me to look?", or "They're in my office in front of the printer." (I'm good at Finding. I can actually do that trick without searching, about a third of the time.)

Because it's usually my partner asking, and he's smart, which means he typically does a basic search before bothering me. If he can't find his glasses, they've either been set down in an atypical place or the fairies have taken them again. Both of these are problems I am very good at solving.

Re: *laugh*

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

That's a functioning relationship. Good on you guys. The "when did you last have them" schtick is a family-of-origin motif.

Re: *laugh*

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>> That's a functioning relationship. Good on you guys. <<

One of the most useful things we've done is declare Jobs. One of mine is Finding Things. Another is being the Knight in Shining Armor Pest Control Service. my_partner_doug is Tech Support. So, I'll never complain about being interrupted to go do something that is My Job. I might feel frustrated at having to do it when I was busy with something else, but it's still My Job, and I will go do it because I agreed to. This saves so many arguments.

>> The "when did you last have them" schtick is a family-of-origin motif. <<

Yeah, I've heard it around. Some people don't have a great problem-solving routine. Most people never troubleshoot theirs. That's the real killer. That's how you wind up re-having the same problem over and over.

Re: *laugh*

[kayshapero]

Ever since Nicolai left the TV remote in the refrigerator, we both check there first, regardless of the unlikelihood of the specific item being there. Then we can grin at each other, announce "it's not in the refrigerator" and go hunt for it in better humor.

Re: *laugh*

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I always check the refrigerator, freezer, and bathroom. Yes, things have been left there -- sometimes by humans, other times by fairies.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

From a purely practical perspective, "Can you help me do X?" "I really think you want to do Y" is often the correct response.

For personal problems it's going to piss people off, though, because everyone gets super-defensive if you hint that they might be better off if they change something about themselves.

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

If someone asks for help, and you try to divert them, then yes it will piss them off. That is NOT HELPING. If they want X and you think they should be doing Y, then your answer to the question they asked is "No." Preferably phrased in a polite way such as, "I'm sorry, that's not something I can help you with." It's okay to say no. It's okay to disagree. You might very well be correct in observing that the person would get better results from some other course of action (then again, you could be wrong). People are usually less upset by an honest "no" than by a dishonest "yes" or manipulation.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Literally answering the question they asked isn't always the best way to help. When it's a *practical* matter (like, 'how do I do X'?) a lot of times people are asking the wrong question, and just saying 'no' or even giving them the literal answer to the question they asked is *not helping*.

Sometimes it's hurting them considerably. At best you're leaving them going down the wrong path.

Usually, the best way to start is to ask 'why do you want to do that?' or 'what are you trying to accomplish?' so that you can give them a solution that will actually help them.

It's just that when the question is personal (like the example of someone with a pathological fear of being close to other people, who wants to know how to get everyone to leave him alone) people get angry when you try to actually help, so maybe you're right and it's better not to try.

[mdlbear]

Yes; I find that "What are you trying to accomplish?" is the best thing to ask when I either don't understand the question or don't understand why they would be asking it in the first place. It usually indicates either an inaccurate view of the situation, or lack of the correct vocabulary to describe it.

Also...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

That's a really great question when somebody rambles about their problem but doesn't make a specific request or question. It often means they have only gotten as far as identifying there is a problem -- which is a necessary step! -- and not necessarily what it is or what their goal is.

This is why I'm a big fan of failure analysis. Even if the person initially has a wrong idea, working through the whole situation usually clarifies that a lot, and may put them on a more productive track.

Take the starting example: people are calling you and you feel uncomfortable about that. So you could stop them from calling you, or you could try to change your feelings. Do you want to have more people around? If so, feeling anxious is a barrier that needs to be removed. If not, having people pester you is the problem that needs to be reduced. Another issue cited was that people were boring. Do you know any people who are not boring? If yes, be around them instead. If no, do you want to know some interesting people? If yes, think of places where there might be interesting people and try to meet some. If no, there is not a shortage of something you actually want so it's not a problem.

Faulty preconceptions will fuck up your problem analysis and solving process every time. Keeping an open mind makes it easier to figure out what is going on and look at all the different things you could do, so as to decide which will yield the best result.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

Having read the original letter, this sounds like a boundary-setting issue to me. The writer doesn't want to give out zir contact info but does because ze doesn't know how to decline gracefully.

Captain Awkward is good with boundary-setting issues; I wonder what she would say. My mental model of her suggests developing a couple of scripts that run roughly "I would prefer not to give out my phone number" and practicing them until they come smoothly.

Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a viable solution. There are assertiveness classes too, which might damp down the feelings of obligation that feed into the anxiety.

Re: Yes...

[tomtac.livejournal.com]

Assertiveness Training has been a godsend to me; I got it in my twenties and it has been useful ever since for just the reasons you both mention -- when caught in the spotlight, it is hard to come up with a (1) fair and (2) effective and (3) graceful speech to get what you need If You Have Not Prepared. And Assertiveness Training gives the template for that kind of preparing.

And, above and beyond that, a person should read "Bartleby the Scrivener". ( http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/11231/pg11231.txt ), It is less than sixteen hundred words, but gives a solid characterization of a person who simply refuses to do things like this, drawing the line with no more justification than saying "I would prefer not to".

"I would prefer not to". It helps to know that one has the perfect right to take that stand. Yes, it did flag Bartleby as not normal, but in the end he maintained his own authority over his own actions, and without graceless explosions of anger or actions of violence.

(I read it again and again, and was released from the tyranny of manipulative courtesy. He is my hero.)

Re: Yes...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>> Assertiveness Training has been a godsend to me <<

Thanks for sharing. Some useful links ...

20 Ways to Say No
50 Ways to Say No

I have no difficulty refusing things, but having polite stock phrases for that is very useful.

>>And, above and beyond that, a person should read "Bartleby the Scrivener".<<

Gods, I hated reading that story. Standout on my list of boring stories. But hey, another haggis shortage averted! Looking back on it, the way Bartleby gradually withdrew from everything makes me think of depression. But it does work as passive resistance too. You have to guard your boundaries or people will eat you alive.

Re: Yes...

[tomtac.livejournal.com]

>> Thanks for sharing.

You are welcome. I didn't mind at all, just trying to second your suggestion of assertiveness classes.

And thank you for the links.

>> I have no difficulty refusing things, but

Please do not misunderstand. No one was saying that you do.

The "I really prefer to be alone" person asked "how to tell them I don’t want to spend time together? How about getting rid of the ones who persistently attempt contact?"

Intended for that person. Not you. You seem to be socially adept.

>> Gods, I hated reading that story.

By the time the usual English classes reach it, people from different backgrounds have different gaps to fill. It seems to have been a good fit for me, less so for you perhaps.

God's Blessings.