ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
[personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
I found a couple of good essays, one about Captain America and Superman, another about the Winter Soldier.

It got me thinking, again, how people often make mistakes because they just don't understand how to play a certain type of character.  Man of Steel botched because it took a specific archetype -- the Unsullied Hero -- and dragged him through the mud.  This is not only unfun, it doesn't play well, because the parts of the character don't fit together anymore.  There are a jillion cynical heroes; we don't need more.  We need the contrast of having at least a few who are not fucked-up bastards.

 The Winter Soldier  worked because it took the same Unsullied Hero archetype and dumped him into a world painted entirely in shades of grey.  And he sat the fuck down and picked out the atoms of black and white one at a time, so he could remind people what those looked like.  Cap isn't boring.  If he looks boring, you're writing him wrong.  He's beautiful and good and therefore really rather scary.  He's also terribly vulnerable because the world can be a harsh place no matter how much he wants it to be better.

Contrasted against this we have the Winter Soldier himself, who is without morality because he is without agency.  And yet he managed to steal it back in the end, because when you have spent years of your life devoting yourself to protecting someone, it makes you part of each other.  HYDRA could wipe his narrative memory.  They couldn't wipe the muscle  memory of protecting Steve.  Because memory is holographic, you can never quite get rid of every piece; and any piece can connect to another.  So here we have a hero who's been tortured clear out of his head -- and yet remains a hero, because he can't kill his best friend.  It doesn't matter what you're forced to do.  It matters what you choose  to do.  Whenever there was any choosing involved, Bucky was making hero choices.

The hero has a thousand faces.  So does the villain.  You can pick any one you want.  But make sure you get the right one for the job.  Don't try to mess things around.  If you want a Hanged Man or an Antihero then fine, go with that.  Those don't play the same way as an Unsullied Hero, who like most of the pure archetypes doesn't mix very well with others.  You have to know how to play the character you pick, because they do better in different plots.  They solve problems in different ways.  And if you mismatch things, the audience tends to complain.

(no subject)

Date: 2014-05-01 10:08 am (UTC)
gingicat: deep purple lilacs, some buds, some open (Default)
From: [personal profile] gingicat
Yes, this.

(no subject)

Date: 2014-05-01 10:35 am (UTC)
siberian_skys: (Default)
From: [personal profile] siberian_skys
Wow. That was so insanely helpful. I could never put my finger on why I disliked Man of Steel so much besides the bad writing of Lois Lane. The writing didn't match the performance or casting. A completely disappointing film. It also explains why I loved Captain America so much in Winter Soldier when I usually go for the flawed heroes like Hawkeye and Iron Man. Thanks for pointing these things out.

Re: Yes...

Date: 2014-05-01 06:15 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: Blair freaking and Jim hands on his knees (Jim calms Blair)
From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
He depends on Natasha, on Clint, on Bruce and that's just weird enough that they bring their very best game to the Battle of Manhattan.

Steve and Tony are more complicated since Captain America got used as a hot iron while he was on ice.

Re: Yes...

From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart - Date: 2014-05-02 12:03 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2014-05-01 11:49 am (UTC)
siliconshaman: black cat against the moon (Default)
From: [personal profile] siliconshaman
" He's beautiful and good and therefore really rather scary. " and this would be why when Angels manifested themselves in bible tales, the first thing they'd say was 'Be not afraid!'... Pure Evil is scary, Pure Good is bloody terrifying!

(no subject)

Date: 2014-05-01 02:16 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: Pre-Serum Steve Rogers, shirt and suspenders (Sad Steve)
From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
I was going to say, you don't want to be at the wrong end of a prophet's stick. You also don't want to be the stick.

Cap has a way of making people realize, now is the time, this is when you're judged. And you see all sorts of unlikely Sticks meting out Justice.

Re: Yes...

Date: 2014-05-01 07:03 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: cartoon men (Egon and Peter)
From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
May make cleaning up this mess easier, having a few Hydra that are willing to help them disinter the hidden bodies.

Re: Yes...

Date: 2014-05-01 09:17 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: Cartoon Stantz post-kafoom (Dangerous and good to know)
From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
Steve wouldn't have one hand tended before Hydra wanted her back.

And goon would quiver when Steve asks her to come for him before she gets 'creative again'.

Trigger warnings this is my pun

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Re: Trigger warnings this is my pun

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Re: Yes...

Date: 2014-05-03 03:42 pm (UTC)
siliconshaman: black cat against the moon (Default)
From: [personal profile] siliconshaman
He.. that would be a fun scene indeed..
Hydra goon: "He..he.. talked to me! Quietly! He was Nice! ... It was awful, I felt so ashamed.. even my granny's not that good at making me feel bad!"

(no subject)

Date: 2014-05-01 02:25 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: Steve in khaki, Peggy foreground (Behind Woman)
From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
Cap written poorly can be very boring, because Steve is the hero. I've read some of the comics as collected in graphic novels, and even when he's being called Steve there's just not really anyone home. I read one, where you get the feeling that a lot of it is happening in his psyche, that the events are how Forces Undisclosed are interrogating him, and they are using the pry bar 'they knew you'd balk so they left you in the ice'. It's a pre-MCU continuity story, but it finds where the tension is.

Steve isn't self-conflicted. He's out of step with the world. He was denying that wrong was the state of affairs then, calling bigger men out and taking the licks, and he will step up, every time he's called to bat.

Re: Yes...

Date: 2014-05-01 06:38 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: Pre-Serum Steve Rogers, shirt and suspenders (Sad Steve)
From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
This happened in The Winter Soldier when Steve had to choose between his duty as a soldier and his love for Bucky.

He was willing to fight Bucky to save the many, just as he took Schmidt's plane down so long ago. But he is done once he's saved the world again. He's given his full measure at that point. The shield tumbles like a coin wished upon.

"Punk, you're heavy enough now when you aren't sopping wet." He's not there yet, but Bucky will get there.

Re: Yes...

From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart - Date: 2014-05-01 10:41 pm (UTC) - Expand

Excellent points

Date: 2014-05-01 02:28 pm (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
The other problem I see in a lot of filmmmaking is that everyone is aiming for "Dark and Gritty", even when it's not appropriate. Captain America: the Winter Soldier did it RIGHT, but one reason I won't watch Man of Steel is that they did it WRONG, uselessly, -I was turned off by the trailers alone!

Re: Excellent points

Date: 2014-05-01 05:52 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: cartoon men (Egon and Peter)
From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
Spiderman needs to think. Sometimes, this does go towards Newton's Cradle because plenty of Spidey's villains won't stop until they are bleeding and can't get up. But he's also about saving the traincar and the schoolbus and all the other victims the bad guys throw around. He's a kid that never set out to be a hero, didn't do the right thing when it wouldn't have been much of a problem for him and Tragic Hero Moment (look, it's Odie Rex without the incest) runs on stage from the wings.

Ironman in MCU is interesting for the rake with the scales dropped from his eyes. Steve, treated like a mushroom, can't grasp it in Avengers.

Re: Excellent points

Date: 2014-05-01 08:12 pm (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
Oh, no, he got it, immediately, when he saw the weapons built off the Hydra and Tesseract "tech".

He just didn't know what to DO about it. In this case, the time he's spent living away from SHIELD has helped tremendously-- CA:the Winter Soldier gave us the same problem, but with a hero EQUIPPED to face it. Not cope with it, not solve it, but even to face it took equilibrium and self-certainty Steve didn't yet have in Avengers.

It makes me wonder how they're going to treat the same "coming to grips" element of the next movie for Bucky.

Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

Date: 2014-05-01 08:09 pm (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
>> the Batman Beyond animated series was marvelously edgy. <<

You'd have LOVED the conversations we had as a family after watching BB when the boys were young. Not just "Why do you think he/she did that?" or "Was that ethical or moral?" We got DEEP into characterization and deep into motivations, responsibility versus rights, especially when the kids kept getting crap for NOT fitting the "homeschooling stereotype". In other words, we not only got in and watched what the kids wanted to see, we geeked out, fully and enjoyably-- and then talked about the Big Questions.

I used to wish I could set up a superhero league, with Spock in charge, Spiderman and... It was really hard to fill a roster with super heroes who weren't basically "bullying the bad guys", given what was available then.

Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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Re: Excellent points

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ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
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