Characters and Archetypes
May. 1st, 2014 02:15 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
I found a couple of good essays, one about Captain America and Superman, another about the Winter Soldier.
It got me thinking, again, how people often make mistakes because they just don't understand how to play a certain type of character. Man of Steel botched because it took a specific archetype -- the Unsullied Hero -- and dragged him through the mud. This is not only unfun, it doesn't play well, because the parts of the character don't fit together anymore. There are a jillion cynical heroes; we don't need more. We need the contrast of having at least a few who are not fucked-up bastards.
The Winter Soldier worked because it took the same Unsullied Hero archetype and dumped him into a world painted entirely in shades of grey. And he sat the fuck down and picked out the atoms of black and white one at a time, so he could remind people what those looked like. Cap isn't boring. If he looks boring, you're writing him wrong. He's beautiful and good and therefore really rather scary. He's also terribly vulnerable because the world can be a harsh place no matter how much he wants it to be better.
Contrasted against this we have the Winter Soldier himself, who is without morality because he is without agency. And yet he managed to steal it back in the end, because when you have spent years of your life devoting yourself to protecting someone, it makes you part of each other. HYDRA could wipe his narrative memory. They couldn't wipe the muscle memory of protecting Steve. Because memory is holographic, you can never quite get rid of every piece; and any piece can connect to another. So here we have a hero who's been tortured clear out of his head -- and yet remains a hero, because he can't kill his best friend. It doesn't matter what you're forced to do. It matters what you choose to do. Whenever there was any choosing involved, Bucky was making hero choices.
The hero has a thousand faces. So does the villain. You can pick any one you want. But make sure you get the right one for the job. Don't try to mess things around. If you want a Hanged Man or an Antihero then fine, go with that. Those don't play the same way as an Unsullied Hero, who like most of the pure archetypes doesn't mix very well with others. You have to know how to play the character you pick, because they do better in different plots. They solve problems in different ways. And if you mismatch things, the audience tends to complain.
It got me thinking, again, how people often make mistakes because they just don't understand how to play a certain type of character. Man of Steel botched because it took a specific archetype -- the Unsullied Hero -- and dragged him through the mud. This is not only unfun, it doesn't play well, because the parts of the character don't fit together anymore. There are a jillion cynical heroes; we don't need more. We need the contrast of having at least a few who are not fucked-up bastards.
The Winter Soldier worked because it took the same Unsullied Hero archetype and dumped him into a world painted entirely in shades of grey. And he sat the fuck down and picked out the atoms of black and white one at a time, so he could remind people what those looked like. Cap isn't boring. If he looks boring, you're writing him wrong. He's beautiful and good and therefore really rather scary. He's also terribly vulnerable because the world can be a harsh place no matter how much he wants it to be better.
Contrasted against this we have the Winter Soldier himself, who is without morality because he is without agency. And yet he managed to steal it back in the end, because when you have spent years of your life devoting yourself to protecting someone, it makes you part of each other. HYDRA could wipe his narrative memory. They couldn't wipe the muscle memory of protecting Steve. Because memory is holographic, you can never quite get rid of every piece; and any piece can connect to another. So here we have a hero who's been tortured clear out of his head -- and yet remains a hero, because he can't kill his best friend. It doesn't matter what you're forced to do. It matters what you choose to do. Whenever there was any choosing involved, Bucky was making hero choices.
The hero has a thousand faces. So does the villain. You can pick any one you want. But make sure you get the right one for the job. Don't try to mess things around. If you want a Hanged Man or an Antihero then fine, go with that. Those don't play the same way as an Unsullied Hero, who like most of the pure archetypes doesn't mix very well with others. You have to know how to play the character you pick, because they do better in different plots. They solve problems in different ways. And if you mismatch things, the audience tends to complain.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-01 10:08 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-01 10:35 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 05:03 pm (UTC)I'm glad I could help.
>> The writing didn't match the performance or casting. A completely disappointing film. <<
That's how I felt. It was a very shabby portrayal of a well-loved character. If you're not going to handle the guy right, you shouldn't pick him up. You should pick some other guy who suits the kind of story you want to write.
>> It also explains why I loved Captain America so much in Winter Soldier when I usually go for the flawed heroes like Hawkeye and Iron Man. Thanks for pointing these things out. <<
Two more things to remember here:
* Steve Rogers has flaws, but they're in the background. Consider that he grew up poor, getting beaten up, and pretty sick. That's obscured once he becomes Captain America, but it heavily influences his behavior; it's why he acts to protect people so much. Dr. Erskine put it right in his qualification speech: "A weak man knows the value of strength, knows compassion."
* Look at the rest of the Avengers. They are all a mess, most of them morally as well as socially. Captain America is their leader because they NEED HIM. They need someone to follow who will absolutely never betray their trust, who will always and only order them to do things that are right, who will give them an unswaying example of good behavior.
And when he pushes himself until he faceplants into the pavement, they'll get an opportunity to take care of someone, too.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 06:15 pm (UTC)Steve and Tony are more complicated since Captain America got used as a hot iron while he was on ice.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 10:05 pm (UTC)Sooth.
>> Steve and Tony are more complicated since Captain America got used as a hot iron while he was on ice. <<
Yeah, once Steve finds out what Howard really did to Tony using Captain America's image, he's going to be really upset.
Re: Yes...
From:(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-01 11:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-01 02:16 pm (UTC)Cap has a way of making people realize, now is the time, this is when you're judged. And you see all sorts of unlikely Sticks meting out Justice.
Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 05:26 pm (UTC)Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 07:03 pm (UTC)Re: Yes...
From:Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 05:07 pm (UTC)My evil warlord-wizard Kovid is completely undaunted by demons or armies. But there is one priesthood in Penumbra that follows the way of Good, and they scare the spit out of everyone, because the whole world slants dark and anyone who can keep their nose about that undertow is fucking formidable.
You know what would be funny, is Black Widow dragging some HYDRA goon out of the torture room and dumping him at Steve's feet: "I can't get a damn thing out of him, and I'm all out of fingernails to pull off. You try being nice to him for a while, maybe that'll work."
Five minutes later that guy is going to be screaming for Black Widow back, and in ten he'll be spilling everything he knows or ever hopes to know.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 09:17 pm (UTC)And goon would quiver when Steve asks her to come for him before she gets 'creative again'.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 10:59 pm (UTC)Trigger warnings this is my pun
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From:Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-03 03:42 pm (UTC)Hydra goon: "He..he.. talked to me! Quietly! He was Nice! ... It was awful, I felt so ashamed.. even my granny's not that good at making me feel bad!"
(no subject)
Date: 2014-05-01 02:25 pm (UTC)Steve isn't self-conflicted. He's out of step with the world. He was denying that wrong was the state of affairs then, calling bigger men out and taking the licks, and he will step up, every time he's called to bat.
Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 06:15 pm (UTC)Agreed.
>> I've read some of the comics as collected in graphic novels, and even when he's being called Steve there's just not really anyone home. <<
0_o
>> I read one, where you get the feeling that a lot of it is happening in his psyche, that the events are how Forces Undisclosed are interrogating him, and they are using the pry bar 'they knew you'd balk so they left you in the ice'. It's a pre-MCU continuity story, but it finds where the tension is. <<
Wow, that is creepy.
>> Steve isn't self-conflicted. He's out of step with the world. He was denying that wrong was the state of affairs then, calling bigger men out and taking the licks, and he will step up, every time he's called to bat. <<
Exactly! It leads to all different storylines than a character who is self-conflicted. You need both internal and external conflict in a cultural canon overall, because people have those different experiences.
*ponder* Though to be fair, it's possible to set up internal conflicts with a self-stable character if you can arrange things so that two or more of their guiding principles points in opposite directions. Then they have to choose which to prioritize. This happened in The Winter Soldier when Steve had to choose between his duty as a soldier and his love for Bucky. Naturally Bucky won, because that loyalty not only came first but is the foundation on which everything later is built. We wouldn't have a Captain America if not for Bucky.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 06:38 pm (UTC)He was willing to fight Bucky to save the many, just as he took Schmidt's plane down so long ago. But he is done once he's saved the world again. He's given his full measure at that point. The shield tumbles like a coin wished upon.
"Punk, you're heavy enough now when you aren't sopping wet." He's not there yet, but Bucky will get there.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-05-01 10:16 pm (UTC)Exactly.
>> The shield tumbles like a coin wished upon. <<
Plus which, dropping a coin into a body of water can be a wish for safe travel.
>> "Punk, you're heavy enough now when you aren't sopping wet." He's not there yet, but Bucky will get there. <<
*LAUGH* I love that line.
Re: Yes...
From:Excellent points
Date: 2014-05-01 02:28 pm (UTC)Re: Excellent points
Date: 2014-05-01 05:16 pm (UTC)Agreed. The problems with this include:
* Some people don't like it.
* Even people who like it get tired of it if you don't mix it up with something else.
* It doesn't suggest how to fix any of the problems, only whines about them.
* It doesn't fit all character or plot types (nothing does) so if you only do that, you're limiting scope, which sucks.
>> Captain America: the Winter Soldier did it RIGHT, but one reason I won't watch Man of Steel is that they did it WRONG, uselessly, -I was turned off by the trailers alone! <<
Yes, this.
I bailed out of the Batman movies because they've go so far as to become horror. My Batman love started with the campy TV show. Now, I'm okay with dark!Bats to some extent, and liked some of the movie versions; the Batman Beyond animated series was marvelously edgy. But I'm rarely into horror, so they lost me there.
Similarly I came to Spiderman through the Electric Company. EC!Spidey got me hooked on heroes who solve their problems in nonviolent ways. I still love that. So you can see a terrific balance between the biff-pow of camp Batman and the gentle, slightly tricksey webslinger. I was a bit thrown when I realized how messed up the original Marvel version was. I loved the earlier run of movies, but haven't even bothered to watch the current ones, the trailers were so off-putting. And I want to get my hands on some Miles Morales issues one of these days.
Re: Excellent points
Date: 2014-05-01 05:52 pm (UTC)Ironman in MCU is interesting for the rake with the scales dropped from his eyes. Steve, treated like a mushroom, can't grasp it in Avengers.
Re: Excellent points
Date: 2014-05-01 08:12 pm (UTC)He just didn't know what to DO about it. In this case, the time he's spent living away from SHIELD has helped tremendously-- CA:the Winter Soldier gave us the same problem, but with a hero EQUIPPED to face it. Not cope with it, not solve it, but even to face it took equilibrium and self-certainty Steve didn't yet have in Avengers.
It makes me wonder how they're going to treat the same "coming to grips" element of the next movie for Bucky.
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Date: 2014-05-01 09:21 pm (UTC)Re: Excellent points
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Date: 2014-05-01 11:02 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly.
>> Sometimes, this does go towards Newton's Cradle because plenty of Spidey's villains won't stop until they are bleeding and can't get up. <<
Just because you have a preference for nonviolence doesn't mean you'll always get it, because sometimes people go apeshit on you. But it makes a terrific first (verbal), second (throws and pins), and third (bondage) option before you have to do real damage.
>> But he's also about saving the traincar and the schoolbus and all the other victims the bad guys throw around. <<
Exactly! Spiderman pays attention to damage control.
>> He's a kid that never set out to be a hero, didn't do the right thing when it wouldn't have been much of a problem for him and Tragic Hero Moment (look, it's Odie Rex without the incest) runs on stage from the wings. <<
That was a brilliant demonstration of how someone else's problems can very quickly become everyone's problems.
>> Ironman in MCU is interesting for the rake with the scales dropped from his eyes. Steve, treated like a mushroom, can't grasp it in Avengers. <<
Agreed.
Re: Excellent points
Date: 2014-05-01 08:09 pm (UTC)You'd have LOVED the conversations we had as a family after watching BB when the boys were young. Not just "Why do you think he/she did that?" or "Was that ethical or moral?" We got DEEP into characterization and deep into motivations, responsibility versus rights, especially when the kids kept getting crap for NOT fitting the "homeschooling stereotype". In other words, we not only got in and watched what the kids wanted to see, we geeked out, fully and enjoyably-- and then talked about the Big Questions.
I used to wish I could set up a superhero league, with Spock in charge, Spiderman and... It was really hard to fill a roster with super heroes who weren't basically "bullying the bad guys", given what was available then.
Re: Excellent points
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