>> The whole ISSUE of whether he had a right to hold those effects is a major problem with canon. <<
Agreed.
>> Was it a result of clearing out Howard's lab to remove any mention of SHIELD or SHIELD projects? Tony had a right to every scrap of the things which didn't qualify, REGARDLESS of Tony's age at the time. <<
Tony had a right to everything that was Howard's property unless Howard left that to someone else. It's not impossible that Howard did actually will that stuff to Fury or SHIELD, but that's not the impression I got. I think they just held it because possession is 9/10 of the law.
>> Was the element-creation mcguffin - the CRATES of manufactured parts- a SHIELD project? <<
Probably not.
>> If not, that's industrial espionage AGAIN, and on an enormous scale. AGAIN. <<
Well, they're spies. They're not likely to distinguish between political or corporate, but between useful and useless. Espionage is their profession. It's what they are, it's what they do, and that is precisely why Tony does not trust them.
>> Howard's personal journal. NO. NO. NO. That was NOT Nick Fury's call. EVEN IF all Tony had done when handed the thing was to BURN IT, Nick Fury had NO RIGHT to withhold the journal. <<
Agreed, unless Howard left it to Fury instead of to Tony. I don't remember exactly what Fury said when the delivered the stuff.
>> With any ONE aspect of this kind of abuse, I really don't believe that Nick Fury actually considered Howard Stark a friend. With the cumulative problems, I wonder if Fury actually understands the definition of the word "friend". Everyone in his world seems to fall into "useful" or "irrelevant" categories pretty quickly! <<
I'm more inclined to believe that Fury's concept of "friend" has devolved considerably over time. After all, look at some of what he's done to Phil. A healthy person does not respond to a friend's death by destroying said friend's treasured possession.
>> I was left with the impression that SOMEONE in SHIELD, probably under Nick Fury's orders, was trying to discover what Howard's last project actually WAS, what it was meant to do, how far he'd developed the idea, et cetera. So, when they couldn't figure it out, they DIDN'T GIVE BACK the relevant items because it let other people KNOW that they'd been snooping. <<
That's probable, although it wouldn't necessarily give away the snooping. But if they didn't have the materials anymore, it would be hard for them to continue the research. How much do you want to bet that played into the Phase II weapons? Howard built weapons; his ideas probably went into those.
>> That's the kind of shadow-government totalitarian BULL that sparks a revolution. Seriously. Mistreat any ONE person that badly, and the rumors become hints become news become international outcry become a revolution. <<
Agreed. That's why, in this series, SHIELD has a damn hard time getting anything out of scientists except the occasional middle finger. Just because Jane Foster couldn't stop them from taking her stuff in the first place, doesn't mean she can't do serious damage to their professional contacts after the fact. Sure, they could kill her to shut her up, but that would piss off Thor and Eric Selvig both, and it wouldn't undo the damage.
>> History has already shown that it can happen. <<
And yet that never stops tyrants, overt or covert, from thinking THEY will be invulnerable despite the historic record.
>> Sadly, I don't think anyone with Nick Fury's mindset would even understand the levels of risk he took, or the levels of violation he committed. <<
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dancing_serpent
Re: thinking
Date: 2014-05-05 12:50 am (UTC)Agreed.
>> Was it a result of clearing out Howard's lab to remove any mention of SHIELD or SHIELD projects? Tony had a right to every scrap of the things which didn't qualify, REGARDLESS of Tony's age at the time. <<
Tony had a right to everything that was Howard's property unless Howard left that to someone else. It's not impossible that Howard did actually will that stuff to Fury or SHIELD, but that's not the impression I got. I think they just held it because possession is 9/10 of the law.
>> Was the element-creation mcguffin - the CRATES of manufactured parts- a SHIELD project? <<
Probably not.
>> If not, that's industrial espionage AGAIN, and on an enormous scale. AGAIN. <<
Well, they're spies. They're not likely to distinguish between political or corporate, but between useful and useless. Espionage is their profession. It's what they are, it's what they do, and that is precisely why Tony does not trust them.
>> Howard's personal journal. NO. NO. NO. That was NOT Nick Fury's call. EVEN IF all Tony had done when handed the thing was to BURN IT, Nick Fury had NO RIGHT to withhold the journal. <<
Agreed, unless Howard left it to Fury instead of to Tony. I don't remember exactly what Fury said when the delivered the stuff.
>> With any ONE aspect of this kind of abuse, I really don't believe that Nick Fury actually considered Howard Stark a friend. With the cumulative problems, I wonder if Fury actually understands the definition of the word "friend". Everyone in his world seems to fall into "useful" or "irrelevant" categories pretty quickly! <<
I'm more inclined to believe that Fury's concept of "friend" has devolved considerably over time. After all, look at some of what he's done to Phil. A healthy person does not respond to a friend's death by destroying said friend's treasured possession.
>> I was left with the impression that SOMEONE in SHIELD, probably under Nick Fury's orders, was trying to discover what Howard's last project actually WAS, what it was meant to do, how far he'd developed the idea, et cetera. So, when they couldn't figure it out, they DIDN'T GIVE BACK the relevant items because it let other people KNOW that they'd been snooping. <<
That's probable, although it wouldn't necessarily give away the snooping. But if they didn't have the materials anymore, it would be hard for them to continue the research. How much do you want to bet that played into the Phase II weapons? Howard built weapons; his ideas probably went into those.
>> That's the kind of shadow-government totalitarian BULL that sparks a revolution. Seriously. Mistreat any ONE person that badly, and the rumors become hints become news become international outcry become a revolution. <<
Agreed. That's why, in this series, SHIELD has a damn hard time getting anything out of scientists except the occasional middle finger. Just because Jane Foster couldn't stop them from taking her stuff in the first place, doesn't mean she can't do serious damage to their professional contacts after the fact. Sure, they could kill her to shut her up, but that would piss off Thor and Eric Selvig both, and it wouldn't undo the damage.
>> History has already shown that it can happen. <<
And yet that never stops tyrants, overt or covert, from thinking THEY will be invulnerable despite the historic record.
>> Sadly, I don't think anyone with Nick Fury's mindset would even understand the levels of risk he took, or the levels of violation he committed. <<
Exactly.