Me again-- was thinking about skin hunger versus touch aversion this morning, and then read:
>> I tend to parse Tony's aversion as "being handed []things[]" rather than "being handed things." I think he's afraid that the object itself will prove dangerous, rather than being squeamish about skin contact. However, I agree that there's enough context (frex, Obie's creeptastic manhandling of Tony) to support your interpretation. There are definitely times Tony resists being touched, as in refusing medical attention after Afghanistan.<<
Probably more correct than my assessment, and then you bring up Obie--- in canon he's a "creepy uncle" type to the point that I can TOTALLY believe that Obie abused Tony as a child in egregious ways and then convinced Tony to HIDE that from his parents, because the situation was "Tony's fault", worsening the damage exponentially. It's all speculation on my part and entirely due to the way Jeff Bridges played the character; him sitting at the piano playing a piece written by Antonio Salieri was just the icing on the cake. Obie is a freaking CONTINENT of abuse indicators (and triggers) to explore.
BUT- refusing medical attention doesn't scream "touch aversion" to me, it screams of a desperate need for CONTROL. When I have gone to most doctors, there is absolutely NO empathy or patience for what is euphemistically called "a difficult reaction to certain procedures". That makes trying to get through a very necessary checkup into an event it'll take weeks to work through emotionally, even with supportive people around me and better skills each year. I found Tony's decision to postpone that particular problem totally realistic.
Take a look at the interactions between Steve and Bucky in the first Captain America movie; there's a LOT of different types of touch between them. Steve in that movie gets a LOT of different kinds of tactile input, and drawing is a very, very tactile media (especially charcoals, pastels and even pencil, compared to the typical handwriting on smooth paper). Steve's library of given/received touch is probably the broadest of the main Avengers.
Natasha doesn't choose/initiate a lot of touch on-screen, but receives and returns quite a bit of both physically and sexually aggressive touch. I think she uses touch as a tool, but it's one she has little use for when "off duty".
Clint is an interesting character for this topic, too: his clothing is HIGHLY tactile, he chooses a HIGHLY tactile weapon, preferring it to pistols and rifles. I think he's just not ready to allow people the same level of tactility. Natasha and Phil are both exceptions to his usual behaviors, which shows that he's learned some more positive behaviors with time and opportunity.
Thor is surrounded by an assortment of textures and people giving him friendly touch, but he needs to learn to interpret other people's reactions, and basically dial it down, both due to his strength and his upbringing. He just doesn't see or understand why the others react the ways they do, but doesn't intend ill, and can learn a lot from game nights as a result. Eventually. It really doesn't feel like he's "missing" from the series; more like the other's aren't ready for him yet.
Betty... You've filled in a great many gaps in the portrayal of the character in canon. I tend to treat your version as a mostly-OC character with very strong implied connections to the original, because the Hulk movies are nearly as contradictory as the comic books. She becomes an outlier, but is definitely a more feminine counterpoint of Phil. I think of your scenes with Betty as those the movie directors left on the cutting room floor, and think the directors are therefore the weaker storytellers.
And then there's Bruce. Sheesh, on the topic of touch starvation, he needs his own volume! In canon his clothing is very drab, but also very SMOOTH. Cotton and cotton blends, knit tee shirts, smooth woven shirts, the least textured beige slacks, et cetera, et cetera. Even the purple "mas... stretchy?" pants are that way. He doesn't work with highly tactile media, and in fact when he is in the lab, tends to do things which require either single glove or double-glove safety precautions. (At least Tony gets into the engines of his cars, which is a tactile FEAST compared to his holographic computer interface!)
I'm extremely glad that your Bruce set his age at game night as low as he did, but my gut feeling is that he didn't set it as low as he wanted to out of (multiple kinds of) fear. When he finally learns that not all hands are going to hurt him, he can open up a bit and cuddle, and LEARN which kinds of touch he prefers.
Hulk is separate from Bruce in a lot of ways. He has far less experience, far less cerebral reactions and interpretations, and far more directly emotional responses. Like your "Green Eggs and Hulk", I see Hulk as between two and three years old (emotionally)... frankly, "older" than Bruce's default avoid-avoid-avoid-startle! reactions. Bruce's reactions make me think of descriptions of infants so neglected they've developed flat spots in their skulls from being left lying unattended for extremely long periods. He's SO starved for touch that he doesn't even recognize the NEED yet. He needs something, something, something... That confusion is one of the many things that fuels the Hulk.
Finding ways to show Bruce and Hulk different kinds of nurturing without resorting to the tropes of a "de-aging fic" or "physical split" is a dance I'll very much enjoy watching someone else (you) do. You can't even fall back on the "sick fic" trope, as Bruce/Hulk don't GET sick any longer. (Me, I just get to the scene where a physically split off, kid-size Hulk calls Fury a "meanie", crosses his arms and stamps a very bare, very green foot, and am laughing too much to actually WRITE any of it.)
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dancing_serpent
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2014-03-24 04:26 pm (UTC)>> I tend to parse Tony's aversion as "being handed []things[]" rather than "being handed things." I think he's afraid that the object itself will prove dangerous, rather than being squeamish about skin contact. However, I agree that there's enough context (frex, Obie's creeptastic manhandling of Tony) to support your interpretation. There are definitely times Tony resists being touched, as in refusing medical attention after Afghanistan.<<
Probably more correct than my assessment, and then you bring up Obie--- in canon he's a "creepy uncle" type to the point that I can TOTALLY believe that Obie abused Tony as a child in egregious ways and then convinced Tony to HIDE that from his parents, because the situation was "Tony's fault", worsening the damage exponentially. It's all speculation on my part and entirely due to the way Jeff Bridges played the character; him sitting at the piano playing a piece written by Antonio Salieri was just the icing on the cake. Obie is a freaking CONTINENT of abuse indicators (and triggers) to explore.
BUT- refusing medical attention doesn't scream "touch aversion" to me, it screams of a desperate need for CONTROL. When I have gone to most doctors, there is absolutely NO empathy or patience for what is euphemistically called "a difficult reaction to certain procedures". That makes trying to get through a very necessary checkup into an event it'll take weeks to work through emotionally, even with supportive people around me and better skills each year. I found Tony's decision to postpone that particular problem totally realistic.
Take a look at the interactions between Steve and Bucky in the first Captain America movie; there's a LOT of different types of touch between them. Steve in that movie gets a LOT of different kinds of tactile input, and drawing is a very, very tactile media (especially charcoals, pastels and even pencil, compared to the typical handwriting on smooth paper). Steve's library of given/received touch is probably the broadest of the main Avengers.
Natasha doesn't choose/initiate a lot of touch on-screen, but receives and returns quite a bit of both physically and sexually aggressive touch. I think she uses touch as a tool, but it's one she has little use for when "off duty".
Clint is an interesting character for this topic, too: his clothing is HIGHLY tactile, he chooses a HIGHLY tactile weapon, preferring it to pistols and rifles. I think he's just not ready to allow people the same level of tactility. Natasha and Phil are both exceptions to his usual behaviors, which shows that he's learned some more positive behaviors with time and opportunity.
Thor is surrounded by an assortment of textures and people giving him friendly touch, but he needs to learn to interpret other people's reactions, and basically dial it down, both due to his strength and his upbringing. He just doesn't see or understand why the others react the ways they do, but doesn't intend ill, and can learn a lot from game nights as a result. Eventually. It really doesn't feel like he's "missing" from the series; more like the other's aren't ready for him yet.
Betty... You've filled in a great many gaps in the portrayal of the character in canon. I tend to treat your version as a mostly-OC character with very strong implied connections to the original, because the Hulk movies are nearly as contradictory as the comic books. She becomes an outlier, but is definitely a more feminine counterpoint of Phil. I think of your scenes with Betty as those the movie directors left on the cutting room floor, and think the directors are therefore the weaker storytellers.
And then there's Bruce. Sheesh, on the topic of touch starvation, he needs his own volume! In canon his clothing is very drab, but also very SMOOTH. Cotton and cotton blends, knit tee shirts, smooth woven shirts, the least textured beige slacks, et cetera, et cetera. Even the purple "mas... stretchy?" pants are that way. He doesn't work with highly tactile media, and in fact when he is in the lab, tends to do things which require either single glove or double-glove safety precautions. (At least Tony gets into the engines of his cars, which is a tactile FEAST compared to his holographic computer interface!)
I'm extremely glad that your Bruce set his age at game night as low as he did, but my gut feeling is that he didn't set it as low as he wanted to out of (multiple kinds of) fear. When he finally learns that not all hands are going to hurt him, he can open up a bit and cuddle, and LEARN which kinds of touch he prefers.
Hulk is separate from Bruce in a lot of ways. He has far less experience, far less cerebral reactions and interpretations, and far more directly emotional responses. Like your "Green Eggs and Hulk", I see Hulk as between two and three years old (emotionally)... frankly, "older" than Bruce's default avoid-avoid-avoid-startle! reactions. Bruce's reactions make me think of descriptions of infants so neglected they've developed flat spots in their skulls from being left lying unattended for extremely long periods. He's SO starved for touch that he doesn't even recognize the NEED yet. He needs something, something, something... That confusion is one of the many things that fuels the Hulk.
Finding ways to show Bruce and Hulk different kinds of nurturing without resorting to the tropes of a "de-aging fic" or "physical split" is a dance I'll very much enjoy watching someone else (you) do. You can't even fall back on the "sick fic" trope, as Bruce/Hulk don't GET sick any longer. (Me, I just get to the scene where a physically split off, kid-size Hulk calls Fury a "meanie", crosses his arms and stamps a very bare, very green foot, and am laughing too much to actually WRITE any of it.)