>>Outside problems are good for characters who are generally sympathetic and competent. For more flawed characters, I really like seeing their poor choices bite them in the ass. I am especially delighted when a villain's piss-poor behavior brings about their downfall.<<
Even with flawed characters, there's something to be said for Doing The Best You Can - and for having a community that encourages you to play to your strengths. (Can't do any emotional labor? Ok, stand here and be scary at anyone who tries to interrupt our emergency EFA work.)
>>It's rare, but I've seen some lovely examples. If you haven't read Hellspark yet, look it up.<<
I can keep it in mind, but I'm doing Buy Nothing Friday today, and I'm possibly boycotting Amazon for longer. Maybe I can find a secondhand copy on Craigslist...after this weekend.
I'll also recommend The Raging Quiet, by Sherryl Jordan. Its a medieval romance novel, but the two leads develop a homesign to communicate, and there's a few other interesting things in the plot.
>>Verbal language in air and sign language in water, or vice versa, depending which their voice is tuned for.<<
I'm thinking a tonal language if they do have a verbal one, it gives me an excuse to incorporate whistle languages. (Somebody else has highly contextual whistle codes, like Cockney rhyming slang.) A precursor sign language that is still occasionally in use would fit the backstory.
I did read an article suggesting dolphins use a combination of audial and somatic communication audial for long-distance, somatic for 'whispering' because of how sound carries in water; something similar might be useful in my story. (Alas, I cannot seem to find the article again.)
(Not body-language article, but interesting research on sonar pictures) https://wakeup-world.com/2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin-language/ (Not original article, but references verbal vs body language) https://dolphins.org/communication (This one has a reverence to different frequencies - think regulars vs infrasound, but in water) https://www.jervisbaywild.com.au/blog/whales-dolphins-communicate/
>>Go you! I love xenolinguistics.<<
All of those examples except the volunteer interpreter one are from things I have seen/participated in, so technically not xenolinguistics. Not annoying volunteering specialists is just (un)Common Sense. (Besides, if you don't realize that a volunteer specialist in a crisis might not 'look like' someone with vital skills, that's on you. Be Nice To the Waiter, folks!)
>>Find any relevant prompt call and ask for it. I'll hit that. :D Just remember to specify no language workaround via technology or magic so I can refer to body language, guesstures, or trial-and-error.<<
But then we have to /define/ technology. Pictures (photos or hand-drawn or Googled)? Symbols? Familiar songs (i.e. humming 'happy birthday?') A Translation Chain? A Translation Chain using a book to go from A to B, then a person from B to C? (I have participated in all of the above.)
I just get tired of 'we found a translator/translation microbes, so its all good.' Sometimes it's: - "I found a phrasebook, but they can't read it and I can't pronounce it. Back to square one." / "I have a translation app! But it doesn't talk, and my neither myself or my conversation partner can read in their language/alphabet." - "I found an interpreter, but we stall need someone to simplify language A from over the phone so it can be turned into language B, because the 'interpreter' is still learning language A and not confidant with phone conversations." So complex A over the phone -> simplified A -> B -> speaker of different dialect of B answering in very limited A - "I have a translation app...but let me check it didn't actually say something rude, by asking a bilingual person before I put up this sign." - "I have a translation app...but it said something rude." - "I have a translation app...but it doesn't know the word for x." (All of these are RL examples, too.)
And for the technology question...I suppose it would be contextual. Human language barriers, miming and point-and-repeat are the low end, but maybe add in pictures if they are a shared acceptable cultural concept. (No Translator Microbes, interpreters or phrasebooks, I guess?)
Nonhuman earthling languages, you might be stuck with mime/body language, and limited other interfaces (audial, tactile).
ET languages you have to get creative. "Now /that's/ a proper introduction!"
Also, any cross-species language barrier carries a heavy risk that you are missing part or all of the linguistic transmission. The more divergent the involved species' the more likely - i.e. human/gorilla is a closer match than human/elephant, which is closer than human/dolphin, which is closer than human/cephalopod, which is closer than human/space squid with a temporal language.
Even with human/human languages and cultures, the closer the linguistic/cultural background the easier communication will be...but with very rare exceptions we can usually have the capability to communicate in the same languages or at least a Bilingual Conversation.
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dancing_serpent
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2021-11-26 09:19 pm (UTC)Even with flawed characters, there's something to be said for Doing The Best You Can - and for having a community that encourages you to play to your strengths. (Can't do any emotional labor? Ok, stand here and be scary at anyone who tries to interrupt our emergency EFA work.)
>>It's rare, but I've seen some lovely examples. If you haven't read Hellspark yet, look it up.<<
I can keep it in mind, but I'm doing Buy Nothing Friday today, and I'm possibly boycotting Amazon for longer. Maybe I can find a secondhand copy on Craigslist...after this weekend.
I'll also recommend The Raging Quiet, by Sherryl Jordan. Its a medieval romance novel, but the two leads develop a homesign to communicate, and there's a few other interesting things in the plot.
>>Verbal language in air and sign language in water, or vice versa, depending which their voice is tuned for.<<
I'm thinking a tonal language if they do have a verbal one, it gives me an excuse to incorporate whistle languages. (Somebody else has highly contextual whistle codes, like Cockney rhyming slang.) A precursor sign language that is still occasionally in use would fit the backstory.
I did read an article suggesting dolphins use a combination of audial and somatic communication audial for long-distance, somatic for 'whispering' because of how sound carries in water; something similar might be useful in my story. (Alas, I cannot seem to find the article again.)
(Not body-language article, but interesting research on sonar pictures)
https://wakeup-world.com/2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin-language/
(Not original article, but references verbal vs body language)
https://dolphins.org/communication
(This one has a reverence to different frequencies - think regulars vs infrasound, but in water)
https://www.jervisbaywild.com.au/blog/whales-dolphins-communicate/
>>Go you! I love xenolinguistics.<<
All of those examples except the volunteer interpreter one are from things I have seen/participated in, so technically not xenolinguistics. Not annoying volunteering specialists is just (un)Common Sense. (Besides, if you don't realize that a volunteer specialist in a crisis might not 'look like' someone with vital skills, that's on you. Be Nice To the Waiter, folks!)
>>Find any relevant prompt call and ask for it. I'll hit that. :D Just remember to specify no language workaround via technology or magic so I can refer to body language, guesstures, or trial-and-error.<<
But then we have to /define/ technology. Pictures (photos or hand-drawn or Googled)? Symbols? Familiar songs (i.e. humming 'happy birthday?') A Translation Chain? A Translation Chain using a book to go from A to B, then a person from B to C? (I have participated in all of the above.)
I just get tired of 'we found a translator/translation microbes, so its all good.' Sometimes it's:
- "I found a phrasebook, but they can't read it and I can't pronounce it. Back to square one." / "I have a translation app! But it doesn't talk, and my neither myself or my conversation partner can read in their language/alphabet."
- "I found an interpreter, but we stall need someone to simplify language A from over the phone so it can be turned into language B, because the 'interpreter' is still learning language A and not confidant with phone conversations." So complex A over the phone -> simplified A -> B -> speaker of different dialect of B answering in very limited A
- "I have a translation app...but let me check it didn't actually say something rude, by asking a bilingual person before I put up this sign."
- "I have a translation app...but it said something rude."
- "I have a translation app...but it doesn't know the word for x."
(All of these are RL examples, too.)
And for the technology question...I suppose it would be contextual. Human language barriers, miming and point-and-repeat are the low end, but maybe add in pictures if they are a shared acceptable cultural concept. (No Translator Microbes, interpreters or phrasebooks, I guess?)
Nonhuman earthling languages, you might be stuck with mime/body language, and limited other interfaces (audial, tactile).
ET languages you have to get creative. "Now /that's/ a proper introduction!"
Also, any cross-species language barrier carries a heavy risk that you are missing part or all of the linguistic transmission. The more divergent the involved species' the more likely - i.e. human/gorilla is a closer match than human/elephant, which is closer than human/dolphin, which is closer than human/cephalopod, which is closer than human/space squid with a temporal language.
Even with human/human languages and cultures, the closer the linguistic/cultural background the easier communication will be...but with very rare exceptions we can usually have the capability to communicate in the same languages or at least a Bilingual Conversation.