>>Separate and equal works great, as long as people want to make that happen.<< Well, it can, given enough time, thought, preparation, and resources. Too often there are not enough of any of the above. And even people with genuinely good intentions can be shockingly obtuse about it. And it can be genuinely difficult to see solutions when hampered by years of attachment to rules that are overly strict. I have had so many facepalm moments at myself and others over the years. And people find the idea of separating/"othering" people so upsetting (understandably, with what goes on in special ed classrooms and the history of this kind of thing) that it's hard to get anyone to act sensibly.
>>...provide plenty of options which they can freely choose between and even move between...<< This is key. One of my big things that I repeat over and over every year is that there is no diagnosis required to access quiet space. There is no gatekeeping Nonsense. If a kid is being too loud or making a problem, that's an issue to work out with that kid, not something to build a blanket rule to prevent. Of course, we do start running into the issue of having enough people in the quiet space that it's starting to get loud, but it's better than sticking everyone together and trying to shush the screamy ones or just let the ones with sensory stuff going on suffer. Of course, when I'm not personally supervising things, this can become a problem because not everyone agrees. We've got a long way to go, particularly in terms of having an actual program rather than just a space. The drop-in nature of it complicates that immensely. It's hard to build a group bond when it changes constantly. But I refuse to start gatekeeping or telling kids they can only have one level of capacity at all times.
>>Exactly! A lot of people keep harping on the ideal of "universal design" but refuse to acknowledge that design cannot be universal because people have different and often conflicting needs. Too often, ADA just changes who gets screwed. >_<<< Yeah. Real access means options, not an impossible quest to make everyone the same.
>>The problem is below the providence of options. The people is that people like to hurt and rob each other. They don't want to make things separate and equal. They're happy with the separate part because that makes it easier to take advantage of others they have decided to hate or disdain. It's the equal part they refuse to do. Fixing a moral problem is a lot harder than fixing a resource problem.<< On a societal level, agreed. But it can be a resource and thought process problem (like, when people are having a failure of imagination rather than a failure of moral desire, if that makes sense. A "but we can't" that doesn't reach for better) on an organizational level. It's very frustrating. Especially when instead of lifting each other up we start tearing each other down because we can't figure out how to make what we have be enough to go around.
>>The most effective methods I've seen use bait to attract people who like -- or at least are open to -- the idea of multiculturalism. Among the best is affordable housing that's half native citizens and half immigrants. It helps the immigrants integrate faster and gives the native citizens a look at the wider world. Everyone wins.<< Nice.
>>Too true. I know they're often stupid, I see evidence of it all around me. But I can't think like them, so that makes some things hard to predict. Like, I know their vocabularies are a lot smaller, but I don't know which words will make them go "Huh?" Just that it's a lot of words.<< Yeah, I have a bit of that problem. Less than my even smarter friend, but it does occasionally happen. Apparently, I've been able to interpret the less smart for him sometimes in a helpful way. It's really hard for me to conceptualize "maybe they aren't doing better because they legit aren't capable of understanding why and how to do better" as real. It's also hard to figure out which difference is causing a communication issue. Neurodivergence? Intelligence? Perspective born of my history? General hardworkingness? And would it even help if I did know?
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dancing_serpent
Re: Intelligence is confusing
Date: 2021-07-02 03:33 am (UTC)Well, it can, given enough time, thought, preparation, and resources. Too often there are not enough of any of the above. And even people with genuinely good intentions can be shockingly obtuse about it. And it can be genuinely difficult to see solutions when hampered by years of attachment to rules that are overly strict. I have had so many facepalm moments at myself and others over the years. And people find the idea of separating/"othering" people so upsetting (understandably, with what goes on in special ed classrooms and the history of this kind of thing) that it's hard to get anyone to act sensibly.
>>...provide plenty of options which they can freely choose between and even move between...<<
This is key. One of my big things that I repeat over and over every year is that there is no diagnosis required to access quiet space. There is no gatekeeping Nonsense. If a kid is being too loud or making a problem, that's an issue to work out with that kid, not something to build a blanket rule to prevent. Of course, we do start running into the issue of having enough people in the quiet space that it's starting to get loud, but it's better than sticking everyone together and trying to shush the screamy ones or just let the ones with sensory stuff going on suffer. Of course, when I'm not personally supervising things, this can become a problem because not everyone agrees. We've got a long way to go, particularly in terms of having an actual program rather than just a space. The drop-in nature of it complicates that immensely. It's hard to build a group bond when it changes constantly. But I refuse to start gatekeeping or telling kids they can only have one level of capacity at all times.
>>Exactly! A lot of people keep harping on the ideal of "universal design" but refuse to acknowledge that design cannot be universal because people have different and often conflicting needs. Too often, ADA just changes who gets screwed. >_<<<
Yeah. Real access means options, not an impossible quest to make everyone the same.
>>The problem is below the providence of options. The people is that people like to hurt and rob each other. They don't want to make things separate and equal. They're happy with the separate part because that makes it easier to take advantage of others they have decided to hate or disdain. It's the equal part they refuse to do. Fixing a moral problem is a lot harder than fixing a resource problem.<<
On a societal level, agreed. But it can be a resource and thought process problem (like, when people are having a failure of imagination rather than a failure of moral desire, if that makes sense. A "but we can't" that doesn't reach for better) on an organizational level. It's very frustrating. Especially when instead of lifting each other up we start tearing each other down because we can't figure out how to make what we have be enough to go around.
>>The most effective methods I've seen use bait to attract people who like -- or at least are open to -- the idea of multiculturalism. Among the best is affordable housing that's half native citizens and half immigrants. It helps the immigrants integrate faster and gives the native citizens a look at the wider world. Everyone wins.<<
Nice.
>>Too true. I know they're often stupid, I see evidence of it all around me. But I can't think like them, so that makes some things hard to predict. Like, I know their vocabularies are a lot smaller, but I don't know which words will make them go "Huh?" Just that it's a lot of words.<<
Yeah, I have a bit of that problem. Less than my even smarter friend, but it does occasionally happen. Apparently, I've been able to interpret the less smart for him sometimes in a helpful way. It's really hard for me to conceptualize "maybe they aren't doing better because they legit aren't capable of understanding why and how to do better" as real. It's also hard to figure out which difference is causing a communication issue. Neurodivergence? Intelligence? Perspective born of my history? General hardworkingness? And would it even help if I did know?