>> If my faith actually had monk/nun/cleric-or-acolyte as a separate thing, I imagine we'd be incorporating genderqueer folks by now, or at least discussing it. <<
Modern Paganism was supposed to be an experiential religion, which lasted for a few decades, but as it grew people quickly discovered that most folks are neither willing nor able to do that level of spiritual work and prefer to have clergy. Most branches of Paganism welcome all genders, although there are gender-specific branches (e.g. Dianic Wicca and the Faerie Faith).
>> As it stands, if you have a religious calling or wish to dedicate your life to service the tradition is that you can and should do so without separating yourself from the world. <<
I think all options should be open. I bought an article on Pagan Monks once. It was very interesting. If you frame it like that, not many people are attracted to it -- but there are a lot more who like the idea of living alone or with a partner in the woods, which is basically what a Pagan Monk would be.
>> There are precedents for if you have family, arraingements can be made by the community for needed suppourt due to an absence or hardship (travel, arrests, etc). <<
True.
>>And why must every Christian denomination have separate terms for their leaders anyway?<<
Some did it because they had different jobs or requirements, to distinguish those from others.
>>Maybe clergy for the whole community, cleric for a full member and acolyte for a trainee? Unless they go with 'Junior / Trainee / Novice Cleric' or something. Trainee might be gender-modifiable as well.
Do they need a separate word for a trainee, or does it make sense to train students however but not take a title until / unless the person takes vows (or the Hippocratic Oath or whatever)?<<
Customarily a novice takes temporary vows. Ordination makes the vows permanent.
>>Also, it looks like cleric can be gendered (clergyman / clergywoman / clergyperson) but that might become rather akward to use all the time.<<
True.
>>Maybe they'll evolve to only be used to indicate preferred gender with introductions (as with Amatakka introductions), or to subtly make a point to rude people ("Its Ms. not Mrs.")?<<
That may be.
>> So the introduction would be Clergyman Bob, Clergywoman Sue, and Clergyperson Jordan...but after, they'd all be Cleric Bob, Cleric Sue, and Cleric Jordan, unless someone needs to be reminded of manners.<<
Remember the distinction between jobs and titles. The latter run to Brother/Sister/Sibling and Father/Mother -- or in Afta more like Bruh/Sis/Sib and Dah/Mah/Pah.
>> I can imagine monk or nun being dropped, except when explaining to outsiders - the terms have a bit more cultural baggage and expectations than Cleric / Clergyperson. <<
They also specify the retiring type of clergy, as opposed to more integrated types, so it has some use. Some people say "monastic" as a nongendered term for that, but it's also the adjective, so kind of clunky.
>>I guess it boils down to 'how much do the founding members want to be able to customize their gender and gender expression?'<<
True, and that varies. While the culture is getting more complex, the language is radically simplifying in most ways. You won't find a list of 100 gender sets, which is not natural to any language and won't last long in English either. Afta will likely settle on a masculine, feminine, and nongendered set. The most I've seen is in Rainbow Hills which has masculine, feminine, and three others.
In this setting, the alternative pronouns seem to break down as: ey/em -- nonbinary gender, androgynous, or other sex/gender variants sie/hir -- ambigender, intersex, or other variants spanning 2+ sex/genders ze/zir -- agender, neuter, or other null-type sex/gender variants
Ey/em is also the pronoun used for unknown or unspecified gender, and that will probably become the standard across most Afta speakers.
>>So in the short-term, it would be good to attract a very skilled birthing assistant.<<
That is true.
>>If they're between wilderness and a city and have access to luxuries like hair dye, does that mean they'll be a major trading hub someday? (That'd really increase contact with and adoption of compatible folks.)<<
They have a great position and a great scrounge, but they're not popular and don't seem to be pushing hard for trade like some other people. The Pueblos are pushing it for all they got.
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dancing_serpent
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2021-05-26 04:51 am (UTC)Modern Paganism was supposed to be an experiential religion, which lasted for a few decades, but as it grew people quickly discovered that most folks are neither willing nor able to do that level of spiritual work and prefer to have clergy. Most branches of Paganism welcome all genders, although there are gender-specific branches (e.g. Dianic Wicca and the Faerie Faith).
>> As it stands, if you have a religious calling or wish to dedicate your life to service the tradition is that you can and should do so without separating yourself from the world. <<
I think all options should be open. I bought an article on Pagan Monks once. It was very interesting. If you frame it like that, not many people are attracted to it -- but there are a lot more who like the idea of living alone or with a partner in the woods, which is basically what a Pagan Monk would be.
>> There are precedents for if you have family, arraingements can be made by the community for needed suppourt due to an absence or hardship (travel, arrests, etc). <<
True.
>>And why must every Christian denomination have separate terms for their leaders anyway?<<
Some did it because they had different jobs or requirements, to distinguish those from others.
>>Maybe clergy for the whole community, cleric for a full member and acolyte for a trainee? Unless they go with 'Junior / Trainee / Novice Cleric' or something. Trainee might be gender-modifiable as well.
Do they need a separate word for a trainee, or does it make sense to train students however but not take a title until / unless the person takes vows (or the Hippocratic Oath or whatever)?<<
Customarily a novice takes temporary vows. Ordination makes the vows permanent.
>>Also, it looks like cleric can be gendered (clergyman / clergywoman / clergyperson) but that might become rather akward to use all the time.<<
True.
>>Maybe they'll evolve to only be used to indicate preferred gender with introductions (as with Amatakka introductions), or to subtly make a point to rude people ("Its Ms. not Mrs.")?<<
That may be.
>> So the introduction would be Clergyman Bob, Clergywoman Sue, and Clergyperson Jordan...but after, they'd all be Cleric Bob, Cleric Sue, and Cleric Jordan, unless someone needs to be reminded of manners.<<
Remember the distinction between jobs and titles. The latter run to Brother/Sister/Sibling and Father/Mother -- or in Afta more like Bruh/Sis/Sib and Dah/Mah/Pah.
>> I can imagine monk or nun being dropped, except when explaining to outsiders - the terms have a bit more cultural baggage and expectations than Cleric / Clergyperson. <<
They also specify the retiring type of clergy, as opposed to more integrated types, so it has some use. Some people say "monastic" as a nongendered term for that, but it's also the adjective, so kind of clunky.
>>I guess it boils down to 'how much do the founding members want to be able to customize their gender and gender expression?'<<
True, and that varies. While the culture is getting more complex, the language is radically simplifying in most ways. You won't find a list of 100 gender sets, which is not natural to any language and won't last long in English either. Afta will likely settle on a masculine, feminine, and nongendered set. The most I've seen is in Rainbow Hills which has masculine, feminine, and three others.
In this setting, the alternative pronouns seem to break down as:
ey/em -- nonbinary gender, androgynous, or other sex/gender variants
sie/hir -- ambigender, intersex, or other variants spanning 2+ sex/genders
ze/zir -- agender, neuter, or other null-type sex/gender variants
Ey/em is also the pronoun used for unknown or unspecified gender, and that will probably become the standard across most Afta speakers.
>>So in the short-term, it would be good to attract a very skilled birthing assistant.<<
That is true.
>>If they're between wilderness and a city and have access to luxuries like hair dye, does that mean they'll be a major trading hub someday? (That'd really increase contact with and adoption of compatible folks.)<<
They have a great position and a great scrounge, but they're not popular and don't seem to be pushing hard for trade like some other people. The Pueblos are pushing it for all they got.