New Particle Physics
Mar. 30th, 2021 12:33 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithData from the Large Hadron Collider hints at things not fully explainable with extant physics. It's exciting to see people moving in that direction.
However, it's a lot less earthshaking if one already knows that matter and energy are just two phases of the same thing and all the forces really do connect. Getting enough detail to start building technology on it has perks, but botches at that level can make a nuclear explosion look like a firecracker. Things like "oops we cracked the planet's crust" and "uh, we seem to be halfway across the galaxy from where we were." I'm not confident of humanity's ability to handle that level of tech safely, since it can't handle current levels safely; but it's still very interesting to watch them trying to put the puzzle together.
However, it's a lot less earthshaking if one already knows that matter and energy are just two phases of the same thing and all the forces really do connect. Getting enough detail to start building technology on it has perks, but botches at that level can make a nuclear explosion look like a firecracker. Things like "oops we cracked the planet's crust" and "uh, we seem to be halfway across the galaxy from where we were." I'm not confident of humanity's ability to handle that level of tech safely, since it can't handle current levels safely; but it's still very interesting to watch them trying to put the puzzle together.
(no subject)
Date: 2021-03-30 06:05 am (UTC)So one day people will be complaining that the new physics lab factory thingamagij 'should be located anywhere but my planet, dangit!'
I'd also wonder what benefits you could get from such discoveries - spacecraft propulsion or teleportation?
Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-30 08:12 am (UTC)That's a different but related branch, also something people are now getting hints toward. Really, super dangerous, "oops we vaporized the planet" stuff.
>> Considering all of the dumb stuff we've managed to do before installing lifeboats on ships or banning glass mines... <<
Considering we know the planet gets shelled by space debris and nobody's arsed to put the Umbrella up. If humanity gets creamed by a comet, they deserve it.
>> So one day people will be complaining that the new physics lab factory thingamagij 'should be located anywhere but my planet, dangit!' <<
Yes. In my defense, I am typically involved in "halfway across the universe" events, not "broke the planet" events.
>> I'd also wonder what benefits you could get from such discoveries - spacecraft propulsion or teleportation? <<
Graviton technology gets you tractor beams, pressor beams, railguns, real artificial gravity, levitation, space elevators, starflight -- it's one of those things that changes everything.
Or crashes Drake's equation.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-30 07:07 pm (UTC)I can only deal with one apocalypse at a time, thankyouverymuch. Or possibly one per lifetime...
Cynically, I wonder at the rate of crashing Drake's equation as:
- oops, knocked into Stone Age or earlier, and no longer have resources to escape scenarios (think Easter Island) vs
- oops, I think we broke the planet and everything is disintegrating/on fire/terraforming into a Death World for carbon[or whatever]-based life.
Hmmm...I also wonder if it would be affected differently for different species. For example, if humans can't do metallurgy, were stuck with mostly Stone Age tools and selective breeding bioengineering. But Killer whales could still use bubbletech, and theres nothing stopping them from advancing it.
Hey, that would be a good story - one species on a planet crashed their tech base, but the other inelegant folk on the planet can advance because they use different tech. And maybe the first folk join the second culture and eventually everyone comes up with more collaborative stuff.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-30 07:30 pm (UTC)One drawback to my high-powered extrapolative engine is that I can see how things are going, everywhere I look. Hence perceiving climate change not as annoying weather but as a probable cascade failure. D:
>> Cynically, I wonder at the rate of crashing Drake's equation as:
- oops, knocked into Stone Age or earlier, and no longer have resources to escape scenarios (think Easter Island) vs
- oops, I think we broke the planet and everything is disintegrating/on fire/terraforming into a Death World for carbon[or whatever]-based life.<<
It is easy to destroy a civilization, feasible to destroy a species, extremely difficult to sterilize a whole biosphere, and all but impossible to destroy a planet. So that's the order of frequency. The most common is simply knocking a civilization back a few steps; all the way to the stone age is less common but still easier than extinguishing an invasive species. As for sterilizing a biosphere, consider that humans -- despite eclipsing the rate of the counted extinctions -- are nowhere near matching the Great Farting Oxygen Event in which newly photosynthetic microbes changed the atmosphere from reducing to oxydizing, killing almost everything else on the planet.
Now, with Sufficiently Advanced Technology, you do get planetcracker and sunkiller bombs, sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose, and not infrequently because of things like that idiot who tried to hold subcritical masses apart with a screwdriver. 0_o The stupid, it burns like hydrogen ... sometimes literally.
>>Hmmm...I also wonder if it would be affected differently for different species. For example, if humans can't do metallurgy, were stuck with mostly Stone Age tools and selective breeding bioengineering. But Killer whales could still use bubbletech, and theres nothing stopping them from advancing it.<<
Well reasoned.
>> Hey, that would be a good story - one species on a planet crashed their tech base, but the other inelegant folk on the planet can advance because they use different tech. And maybe the first folk join the second culture and eventually everyone comes up with more collaborative stuff. <<
Totally on the mark for Tuesday's fishbowl, by all means repeat it then.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-30 08:54 pm (UTC)Sometimes I think above-average and Superintellect has similar pitfalls to Cassandra's Curse. >_<
>>Now, with Sufficiently Advanced Technology, you do get planetcracker and sunkiller bombs, sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose,...<<
Is it a human trait to play with dangerous stuff, or are we just the most vocal-about-it group on-planet right now?
>>Totally on the mark for Tuesday's fishbowl, by all means repeat it then.<<
I'll keep it in mind - but now I'm wondering what sort of collaboration e tech folk could do if anyone's done it...and how to identify different basis-es of technology.
If stone-and-metal tools are to carbon-based life as bubbletech is to silicon-based, what is equivalent to methane, sulfur, or chlorine-based life?
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-31 09:03 am (UTC)Painfully true.
I have observed that the factuality of my speech has little impact on whether people believe me. Indeed, many people seem little motivated by facts, and far more by beliefs or feelings. I've been pestering them to stop abusing the environment since I could talk, and it has done fuckall good -- other than justify my right to say "I told you so" in the Foyer-Ever-After.
>> Is it a human trait to play with dangerous stuff, or are we just the most vocal-about-it group on-planet right now? <<
As all cultures seem to have cautionary tales about people playing with dangerous things and getting in trouble, it must be considered a human trait; but it is not evenly spread. Some people are quite cautious and sensible, while others are more "Hey, y'all, watch this!" Such diversity is of value to the species.
>> If stone-and-metal tools are to carbon-based life as bubbletech is to silicon-based, what is equivalent to methane, sulfur, or chlorine-based life? <<
Well, one of them is pretty much locked into ceramic tech because their environment attacks metals and most other materials, but I forget which it is.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-31 04:42 pm (UTC)No wait, it should be grouped by process not material, ie.:
- (possibly?) Passive "using the environment as a tool without really changing it" (using outgoing tides to launch boats, solar/geothermal/tidal energy, solar ovens, navigating by the stars, rain catchment systems, traditional windmills, using found feathers/stones/exoskeletons for decorations)
- physical manipulation; "I change the shape but not the chemistry" (flint knapping, construction, wire weaving, carving of wood/stone/bone)
- chemistry "I change the chemical compound(s)" (cooking, metallurgy, fire, chemical warfare weapons, ceramics)
- biological technology "I use a living organism as a tool or change the type of living organism" (topiaries, bonsai, root bridges, domestication, working animals, coal mine canaries, most modern gardening, bioweapons, possibly food - especially modified or cultivated food)
[gengineering via direct genetic manipulation is a subset of this]
[also be careful not to categorize nonhuman persons as tools; though interspecies cooperation could still be a loose example if multiple participants are modifying/influencing each other]
- ethereal tech "Something that disappears/disintegrates as soon as I am done but affects the environment all the same" (Not quite sure how to group this - bubbletech for sure, but maybe language, soundwave tech 'weaponized music, anyone?,' shibboleth tests, dance...)
- atomic tech "manipulating changes at the atomic level" (atomic bombs and fusion or fission, - but an established reactor would fall more into 'direct physical manipulation' I think)
- subatomic tech "Manipulation of subatomic particles for desired effect" (apparently, teleportation FTL travel and some high-level artificial gravity)
Humans have dabbled in everything on the list except subatomic, and we're just starting to poke that one with a stick. Although I note that we tend to be very attracted to Physical Manipulation, rather reliant on Chemistry (mostly cooking, ceramic and metalwork) and that we don't really notice or pay attention to our ethereal tech /as tech/ despite it being vital to species bonding (dance, music, conversation).
Cetacens would likely focus on etherial, but they've also used chemistry/biotech (pufferfish drugs) and some direct manipulation (sponge mitts). Birds share our fascination with direct manipulation. Different apes have dabbled in chemistry (firemakinf, cooking), ethereal (sign language), and biotech (those proto-domesticate deer - and the guard puppies) as well as the natural simian proclivity for direct manipulation (termite sticks, rocks). Elephants can manipulate their environment a bit, and the do seem to dabble in ethereal tech as communication. Possibly cephalopods have eternal communication with their colors, too.
Different species would have different challenges for different types of tech - any chemistry relying on heat would be pretty difficult for aquatic folk to do (but they might still be able to salt, ferment, or flavor food). Metallurgy and cooking on a fire would be right out unless they were amphibious or very heat resistant and near a volcano (but a kind of solar oven might be doable). Or using other organisms to 'cook' - feed them something and the food changes while they are digesting it...let yeast eat your wheat, and sometimes you get beer!
Also, tech can be combined. Fermented foods combine chemistry and biotech (but the bio- part isn't obvious before microscopes.) Charcoal art is a physical-manipulation tech but uses a chemistry made tool. Writing uses physical manipulation as a way to preserve material tech past its usual timeframe. Guns are made with chemistry, but are used to physically manipulate the environment.
And for some of these, once a higher level is 'unlocked' it can be used even if you don't know the process. I can drive without advanced chemical/electric knowledge, cook without knowing the Periodic Table Of Elements, use artificial gravity without knowing what a quark is, etc...
This is fun!
And I've probably missed a tech process...or more than one.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-31 01:06 am (UTC)"Hey why does Jupiter have a new moon?"
"...uh, forget canals, I'm pretty sure Jupiter's new moon has propulsion engines."
[as aliens are frantically trying to jury-rig a stable and semi-survivable orbit]
"Hey, maybe we should run these radio signals by the linguists, see what they can make of it."
"[Alien language]" -> "...any ideas for weatherproofing; orbit won't matter much if we freeze first...canned food, can try grow lights later...should have expected having civvies on base after this..."
It might be an interesting mashup of scifi thriller, political drama, and wilderness survival/disaster movie...and if we're trying to pull off disaster relief from several planets away things could get really interesting...
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-31 01:39 am (UTC)I don't think I've ever seen that plot in a book or movie. That's rare.
Also exceptional, it provides a way of meeting aliens who are just slightly ahead of humanity rather than way ahead, if they were trying to advance their tech and botch-jumped.
By all means, please prompt for this on Tuesday, as it fits the science theme. \o/
Have I mentioned recently that you'd make a great SF writer? Because you would.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-03-31 02:06 am (UTC)Squee!
>>Have I mentioned recently that you'd make a great SF writer? Because you would.<<
Thank you. :)
And you have mentioned it before, for a couple genres. (I.e. A species says "I wanna go spacefaring, domesticate me!")
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 07:27 am (UTC)Of course, if it's *random* odds favor winding up nowhere near a *galaxy* much less a star. It'd get cold folks...
I think something like that happened in the "Wandering Earth" series. I think that was by Roger MacBride Allen. But that was Earth wandering around, not an alien planet arriving here.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 07:58 am (UTC)Here is a video demonstration using spandex and balls to show how gravity works in spacetime. If you send something sliding across space, it will roll down a gravity well somewhere.
Now whether that gravity well contains anything useful to your survival is a different question, but solar systems are full of interesting things.
Helpful tips:
* Don't put dicey new tech on or near an inhabited planet. Especially not one you are standing on.
* Never build a research space station without including some of your best traveling craft. Just in case shit goes wrong and you need to haul ass.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 07:17 am (UTC)Just raising the *surface* temp to 300C won't do it. Gotta go most of the way to the mantle.
Heck, we'd have a hard time doing enough damage to kill the critters around the black smokers!
ps. I typoed "smokers" as "smores"
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 07:26 am (UTC)Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 07:32 am (UTC)Given the temps and pressures around a black smoker, I suspect that a lot of pollutants would get broken down even *before* the local biome started munching on them.
Plastics could wind up as a tasty treat. Or, more likely just another source of carbon & hydrogen.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 08:01 am (UTC)*ponder* It's a good thing that black smokers have a very different environment than the rest of the planet. If things start eating plastic, that would be great for the biosphere but not so much for humans. I don't think anyone's written a story where the black smoker ecosystem takes over, but it would be interesting dark SF.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 08:20 am (UTC)The presence of water and various other compounds may well catalyze things as well.
Black smokers "taking over" would require massive increases in volcanic/geothermal activity. Not sure how you'd get that, but it'd probably wipe out humanity longer before the takeover was anywhere near complete.
Hal Clement's The Nitrogen Fix is sort of a seuel to one of his short stories. Bioengineering had a major "oops" and nitrogen fixing organism not only got loose, but was able to thrive. End result is that nitrogen oxides are a primary component of the atmosphere, and water is "weak" nitric acid.
Humans are hanging on, but not thriving. And aliens who *like* that kind of atmosphere are visiting. Apparently this sort of shift is common (much like the oxygen extinction associated with photosynthesis)
The aliens are surprised to meet the humans, as all the other races they know are from similar worlds. This is the first time they've encountered a world shortly after the transition. And yes this doesn't bode well for the chance of humans surviving long term
It does clear up some things for the alien scientists though. It *had* been hard to explain how the change could occur naturally.
Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 08:29 am (UTC)Re: Yes ...
Date: 2021-04-07 08:48 am (UTC)That said, if it was edible there, it might be advantageous to grab samples of the organisms and try growing them in an industrial setting for the specific purpose of digesting scrap plastic.
It'd be fairly safe as if there was a leak the cold temps and high oxygen levels would kill the organisms.
And I'm sure we could use the large amounts of bacteria produced as raw materials for *something*.
(no subject)
Date: 2021-03-30 09:14 am (UTC)Thoughts
Date: 2021-03-30 09:25 am (UTC)I generally don't consider things impossible, as I've too often seen them done. Not to mention, people routinely tell me things are impossible that I do. 0_o So, impossible just means people don't know how to do it.
>> but all of those (and especially anything to do with zero point energy or gravity control) could also go catastrophically wrong in a fashion that could easily be planet destroying rather than "merely" civilization ending.<<
Yeah. As much as I love advanced societies, I'm not keen on handing a blowtorch to a toddler.
(no subject)
Date: 2021-03-30 11:03 am (UTC)Well hopefully the Earth-shattering Kaboom will occur after we've figured out the 'whoops we're half-way across the galaxy!' thing...
If we're very lucky, it won;t be our planet we accidentally blow up. Paging Dr Rodney Mckay!