Poem: "The Fish That the Water Sees"
Oct. 6th, 2020 06:24 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithFrom today's fishbowl, this was prompted and sponsored by ng_moonmoth. It also fills the "special children" square in my 10-1-20 card for the Fall Festival Bingo. It belongs to An Army of One series.
"The Fish That the Water Sees"
Jorje is sure the assignment
will be a piece of cake.
He's supposed to spy on
the Lacuna, and everyone
knows that the special children
can't read social cues very well.
He'll have no trouble slipping in,
finding out what's for real,
and slipping back out.
It's a complete disaster.
Everyone he meets --
everyone -- somehow knows
that he's not one of them.
It doesn't matter how hard
Jorje tries to fit in, to mimic
what other people are doing;
somehow they just know.
"You must not be from
around here," they say
as they offer him a room
or a map or advice about
something he should
have done differently.
They are careful and
meticulous, the greeters
treating him with odd courtesy
even as some other people
avoid him altogether.
"Don't do that, it's rude
to follow people who don't
want company," a man says,
gently steering him away
from his efforts to trail
one of the skulkers.
"It's a public lounge,"
Jorje protests, although
it's bigger than that, sort of
an open space between
the shops and offices.
Agora, someone called it.
"That doesn't give you a right
to bother people just because
they're here," the man says.
It's like that everywhere he goes,
and it's driving Jorje crazy.
He can't do his job when
everyone is watching him
because he doesn't belong.
He's worse than a fish out of water;
he's the fish that the water sees.
Worst of all is that the locals
keep asking him about his mission,
as if it's something he can talk about!
Jorje knows -- he's been told --
that most of the Lacuna residents
used to be spies back in the war,
but this is just ridiculous.
After Backup says, "Give
my regards to my family,"
Jorje gives up and slinks back
to the Carina-Sagittarius Arm.
General Fallon is surprisingly
understanding about it all.
"They may be freaks, but
they always were good at
what they do," he says.
"Then why not send a spy
like them?" Jorje says.
General Fallon grimaces.
"Because every freak we've
sent in there has gone native."
* * *
Notes:
Jorje -- a neurotypical man of nondescript appearance from the Carina-Sagittarius Arm. General Fallon sends him to spy on the Lacuna, but the mission is an abject failure because every notices that Jorje is an outsider. Introduced in "The Fish That the Water Sees."
ng_moonmoth. It also fills the "special children" square in my 10-1-20 card for the Fall Festival Bingo. It belongs to An Army of One series."The Fish That the Water Sees"
Jorje is sure the assignment
will be a piece of cake.
He's supposed to spy on
the Lacuna, and everyone
knows that the special children
can't read social cues very well.
He'll have no trouble slipping in,
finding out what's for real,
and slipping back out.
It's a complete disaster.
Everyone he meets --
everyone -- somehow knows
that he's not one of them.
It doesn't matter how hard
Jorje tries to fit in, to mimic
what other people are doing;
somehow they just know.
"You must not be from
around here," they say
as they offer him a room
or a map or advice about
something he should
have done differently.
They are careful and
meticulous, the greeters
treating him with odd courtesy
even as some other people
avoid him altogether.
"Don't do that, it's rude
to follow people who don't
want company," a man says,
gently steering him away
from his efforts to trail
one of the skulkers.
"It's a public lounge,"
Jorje protests, although
it's bigger than that, sort of
an open space between
the shops and offices.
Agora, someone called it.
"That doesn't give you a right
to bother people just because
they're here," the man says.
It's like that everywhere he goes,
and it's driving Jorje crazy.
He can't do his job when
everyone is watching him
because he doesn't belong.
He's worse than a fish out of water;
he's the fish that the water sees.
Worst of all is that the locals
keep asking him about his mission,
as if it's something he can talk about!
Jorje knows -- he's been told --
that most of the Lacuna residents
used to be spies back in the war,
but this is just ridiculous.
After Backup says, "Give
my regards to my family,"
Jorje gives up and slinks back
to the Carina-Sagittarius Arm.
General Fallon is surprisingly
understanding about it all.
"They may be freaks, but
they always were good at
what they do," he says.
"Then why not send a spy
like them?" Jorje says.
General Fallon grimaces.
"Because every freak we've
sent in there has gone native."
* * *
Notes:
Jorje -- a neurotypical man of nondescript appearance from the Carina-Sagittarius Arm. General Fallon sends him to spy on the Lacuna, but the mission is an abject failure because every notices that Jorje is an outsider. Introduced in "The Fish That the Water Sees."
(no subject)
Date: 2020-10-07 12:00 am (UTC)will be a piece of cake.
He's supposed to spy on
the Lacuna, and everyone
knows that the special children
can't read social cues very well.
It’s not what you don’t know that’ll get you, it’s what you do know that ain’t so...
Jorje knows -- he's been told --
that most of the Lacuna residents
used to be spies back in the war
And he still expected this to be easy. Wow.
Gee, I can’t imagine why all the neurodivergent spies they sent in there decided not to come back.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-10-07 12:51 am (UTC)I Simply Cannot Imagine. A True Mystery For The Ages. Guess We'll Never Know. /s
(stage whisper: it's because the Lacuna both has and uses manners.)
Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-07 12:55 am (UTC)LOL yes.
>> And he still expected this to be easy. Wow. <<
Well, he thought that their reputation for social ineptitude would give him an advantage. There was logic in that; it just happened to be wrong. He didn't account for the fact that a neurovariant specialist will almost always beat a neurotypical specialist because of their ability to hyperfocus.
>> Gee, I can’t imagine why all the neurodivergent spies they sent in there decided not to come back.<<
:D Even though most neurovariant folks aren't good at socializing with neurotypical people, many of them seem to do great socializing with each other. So it's less about a lack of social skills, and more about different social skills.
That's also a key reason why Jorje stuck out so badly.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-07 05:13 am (UTC)People are weird. And have weird expectations. [Shrug.]
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-07 05:17 am (UTC)I have seen references to this ...
>> - but the other patients did. <<
... but not that part. Interesting.
>> People are weird. And have weird expectations. [Shrug.] <<
This is a true fact.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-07 12:18 pm (UTC)https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObfuscatingInsanity
"don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 12:13 am (UTC)ABSOLUTELY I would go native there!
Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 12:49 am (UTC)My life partner works at a company that's 90% autistic and we frequently discuss how great the company culture is there because of things like this. They don't put up with rude politicky bull that invades people's privacy, they just make space for people to share what they want if they want. (LP won a gift card in a recent 'show off your passion project' contest at his work, and unlike similar things at my office, it wasn't mandatory.) Basically, his job is a local-verse version of the Lacuna in terms of their social structure and it makes me wish I did data science so I could go native too.
Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 01:34 am (UTC)That is SO AWESOME! :D Things like this are why I say that neurovariant people need to make their own spaces and companies so they can be themselves and not waste all their energy trying to please the norms.
>> They don't put up with rude politicky bull that invades people's privacy, they just make space for people to share what they want if they want.<<
Good plan.
>> (LP won a gift card in a recent 'show off your passion project' contest at his work, and unlike similar things at my office, it wasn't mandatory.) <<
What a wonderful idea!
>> Basically, his job is a local-verse version of the Lacuna in terms of their social structure and it makes me wish I did data science so I could go native too. <<
Ask around. You are probably not the only neurovariant person with a different skillset who would like to work in NV space. What are the skills of the other people? Could you band together and form a supporting company, or do something unrelated? Is the data science company using all their space or do they have a little extra that someone else could use to spin up a new business? Having a handful of NV businesses in the same area could make the core of a nice NV community.
Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 01:29 am (UTC)So instead of demanding that everyone socialize, or rigidly separating activities by location, they rely a lot on body language and there are some areas set up with inward-facing seats to facilitate socializing while other seats are outward-facing or solitary. That kind of lounge layout offers more choices.
A person open to chatting will be looking around or moving close to people, and if they sit they'll choose a cluster conducive to socializing. A person uninterested in company will be hurrying to a destination, scrunched up, or sitting either in a solitary chair or an outward-facing cluster.
Thing is, "don't bother me" body language looks like "I'm hiding something" body language to most neurotypical people, and especially to a spy. But in the Lacuna, chasing someone who wants to be alone is like trying to follow someone into a toilet stall. You just don't do that.
Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 02:11 am (UTC)I'm not that NV, I fake it well enough to pass, and not skewed on that axis anyway... but damn I would SO go native there.
Although that is So Very British levels of politeness. But without the crippling levels of social anxiety at the idea of confronting someone. It's civilised!
Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 02:17 am (UTC)That has its ups and downs.
>> and not skewed on that axis anyway... but damn I would SO go native there. <<
:D
>> Although that is So Very British levels of politeness. <<
Yeah, I see what you mean.
>> But without the crippling levels of social anxiety at the idea of confronting someone. It's civilised! <<
While some neurovariant people are very shy, many of them seem to be blunt and won't hesitate to confront someone who is bothering them. This has the advantage of getting most social expectations right out in the open, rather than requiring everyone to hunt them like Easter eggs.
Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 03:11 am (UTC)Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 03:18 am (UTC)Re: "don't follow people, that's rude,"
Date: 2020-10-07 05:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2020-10-07 12:43 am (UTC)Jorje tries to fit in, to mimic
what other people are doing;
somehow they just know.<<
Now you know how it feels! Masking fucking sucks monkey butts and even with loads of practice it isn't a substitute for actually being what you're masking as. At least the Lacuna is a nice enough place to make it clear he doesn't have to mask because they already know.
Also, while Autistic people may very rarely lie (not actually worth it in most cases) when we do decide something is secret or even just private... you will never learn it from us. We're consistent and thorough when we lie, which makes it hard to catch us in a fallacy, and our tells are all wrong to read us for dishonesty. Most of us have learned how to seem like we're making eye contact at all times, so we don't do the 'look away when lying' thing, unless we weren't making eye contact to start with. Many of us weaponize awkwardness, and most people don't spot lies if you include an embarrassing truth with it. And those of us who are GOOD at masking? Forget it. We're Sophie Devereaux, the best actors in the world as long as we're lying. Trying to spy on an entire community of NV people? You might as well just ask us... you're more likely to get an answer.
Anyway, to sum up, great job, I needed this emotional catharsis moment.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-10-07 02:12 am (UTC)hey.. does that mean Black Widow is a high functioning Autistic?
Wow!
Date: 2020-10-07 02:19 am (UTC)Many people write Tony Stark on the spectrum, though.
Re: Wow!
Date: 2020-10-07 02:23 am (UTC)I can see why, but he doesn't hit me that way. Tony is just so smart, he's already worked out what someone is going to say, and lost interest in the conversation before they've even started. I get that.
that can come across as being borderline autistic though, he just doesn't connect with people because they bore him.
Re: Wow!
Date: 2020-10-07 04:08 am (UTC):)
maybe?
Date: 2020-10-07 02:09 pm (UTC)That said, I could 100% see a read of Natasha as Autistic, especially with the parallels of the Red Room and the more abusive "therapies" pushed on us to make us conform to NT standards. She certainly lies like one of us would, with total sincerity and her whole body backing the lie. And her loyalty to Clint (especially in the first Avengers movie) definitely reads autistic as well. It also reads like someone who escaped abuse and frankly the Red Room would give people a neuro-variance if they didn't come equipped with one to start, since prolonged duress distress syndrome is a neuro-variance as well. So while I don't strongly headcanon it like I do MCU Jane Foster being autistic, I can see a potential there for fanfic to explore.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-10-07 12:58 am (UTC)Yay!
Date: 2020-10-07 01:36 am (UTC)Welp
Date: 2020-10-07 01:47 am (UTC)Re: Welp
Date: 2020-10-07 01:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2020-10-07 04:26 am (UTC)*I need to watch fewer crime dramas...
I would like to /vacation/ in the Lacuna - I prefer a bit more forethought before moving. But the social directness would be a nice difference from my current social environment.
Related, I think I'm going to start asking a housmate what they mean by 'polite society' when they start saying 'In polite society we...' Grumble grumble.
Whose society?
Date: 2020-10-07 02:12 pm (UTC)Re: Whose society?
Date: 2020-10-07 05:17 pm (UTC)Techically, we're both American,* same race and gender, but I suspect the problem maps out to a 'White Man's Burden' of sorts: 'There is one proper way to live and you'll be /so/ much happier - never fear, I'll teach/save you! Wait, why aren't you grateful?'
*Different philosophical outlooks/subcultures, I think.
Now my other idea was to mention that 'In civilized society we...consider it barbaric to use a knife and fork at table. Shall I get my chopsticks out of the attic for tommorrow?' Replace second half as needed...
Most of my housemates are at times rude by /my/ standards, and not interested in discussing it. This is not helped by the world as it is...
I am looking into alternate living arraingements, haven't gotten very far yet..
Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-07 07:42 pm (UTC)*I need to watch fewer crime dramas... <<
Good advice.
>> I would like to /vacation/ in the Lacuna - I prefer a bit more forethought before moving. But the social directness would be a nice difference from my current social environment. <<
That's reasonable.
>> Related, I think I'm going to start asking a housmate what they mean by 'polite society' when they start saying 'In polite society we...' Grumble grumble. <<
If you ask, they get to answer that their society is the only polite one; that puts you on the defensive. It's also a wrong answer. Every culture and every subculture defines polite in its own way. In theory etiquette supposed to provide social lubricant by reducing conflict. In practice most people use it like this: as a bludgeon to hurt others and make them do what someone else wants.
Basically what you have is a dominance problem. Your housemate thinks you have no status and they are free to force themselves on you. They aren't treating you as an adult with the right to make your own decisions or have your own culture. They aren't concerned that you might get offended, so they believe you have no power to retaliate if you are unhappy with them. This is a problem, because if they feel free to abuse you in small ways of etiquette, there's nothing to stop them from abusing you in larger ways should they find it advantageous.
You can submit, you can challenge their dominance, you can recruit outside assistance, or you can leave.
I have found that the bitchier someone is about little details, the more fragile their reality tunnel is. People really don't like getting kicked in the reality tunnel. It's a very effective way to fight back, but you have to be prepared to handle the consequences -- people can get enraged, even violent, when someone they consider a nonperson behaves like they have rights.
You can tell them you don't care what they think, don't have to care, and are doing what you want.
You can deliberately do more things that irritate them, because you can. This is rude. You have a right to be rude if you want to; whether to be rude or polite is your choice.
You can counterattack by listing everything the other person does that's rude in your culture and never giving them a moment's peace.
A similar option is to quote in aggravating detail and repetition some authoritative source on the topic. Most people will shut the fuck up after a week or so of "Miss Manners says" after every criticism. I used this one a lot in junior high when I was consuming all the etiquette guides in the library.
You can directly attack their premise by stating out loud exactly what they're doing -- violating your boundaries, trying to force you to do what they want, etc. -- and then name it as bullying, abuse, whatever. Abusers rely on the victim's collusion to keep it hidden. Kicking it out into daylight makes them uncomfortable.
You can fight back by listing a bunch of other cultures and how they would rate politeness in a given context.
If you really want to drive them batshit, pick a different culture every week, or even every day, and follow its etiquette as completely as you can. The more inflexible the target, the better this stunt works, and when they blow up about it, you point out that you like ALL of those etiquette sets better than theirs.
I have used such tactics. They've gotten me screamed at, smacked, and kicked out of places. People don't want nonpersons acting like persons. But I am still myself, still wild and free. I'd rather fight than lay down and take it, even if I don't always win. YMMV.
Of course, if you're more averse to conflict or they have power over you which makes direct confrontation too costly, there are subtler options.
Frex, you could sabotage their relationships and reputation by describing them as rude, intolerant, manipulative, etc. to other people. If someone names them for an opportunity, propose a better person to get it. If someone talks about doing things with them, obliquely hint that they're not much fun to be around. And so on.
You could also do things around the house to make them miserable. The more people in the household, the better this works. The subtler you are, the better. Put things away in almost the right place. Twiddle the thermostat just a tiny bit away from their comfort zone. That sort of thing.
When they suggest a bad idea, push it to the hilt; then when it goes wrong, make wide eyes and say, "But Housemate said it would work!" If you have any power, calculate how much mishap you can tolerate before deciding when to use this tactic; but if you have no power, they're going to get their way anyhow, so you might as well make sure it does them as much damage as possible.
Never do anything without being asked. Force the dominant to exert their dominance for every least little thing. Make it easier to do the damn thing themselves than drag you over to do it. Then when they tell you what to do and how to do it, look for a literal interpretation that will make them unhappy. If they haven't taken the "Military Orders" course, they are unlikely to think their way out of this trap.
Even if you can't win, you can usually make sure they don't enjoy their victory either.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-08 12:09 am (UTC)Advice originally from Criminal Minds and an ATLA fanfic.
>>You can submit, you can challenge their dominance, you can recruit outside assistance, or you can leave.<<
I'm mostly avoiding varous issues, but this is detrimental to my wellbeing in some cases. Not helping is that another housemate is playing mediator, but is terrible at it. Longer term, I'm looking into options for moving out, before my mental wellbeing takes too many more hits. (I think the household will be mostly stable after I leave...)
Outright trying breaking the social network is out, as is trying to drive someone to a nervous breakdown. (Too much collateral damage, counterproductive to some of my longer-term goals, and for various reasons I'd consider it unethical.) I am not ruling out snapping back in an argument. Or having prepared arguments.
I may try the 'you're being rude to me' or 'why should I take advice from someone who thinks harassment/double standards are polite?'
I don't think I know enough to do immersion ettiquite, but I do have a variety of random facts. (Some countries consider knives/forks at the table to be barbaric. Medival Europe and the modern Middle East eat with their fingers. Some religions consider eating meat, or certain meat to be unethical...and so on.)
>>Never do anything without being asked. <<
Asked _nicely_. If you scream at me, do it yourself. And even then, I refuse most housekeeping tasks for this reason. ("Please do X. No, not like that!")
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-08 12:32 am (UTC)Very bad situation. Remember that health is one thing money can't always buy, and this society is not very good at fixing mental damage.
>> Not helping is that another housemate is playing mediator, but is terrible at it. <<
There may actually be some wiggle room there. Mediation is a learned skill. Does the other housemate care about being a good mediator? If so, they can study that. Given a low starting level, much improvement is possible.
Of course, mediation requires that the parties involved respect each other. If your asshole housemate respected you, then you wouldn't be having these problems. Disrespect is difficult or impossible to fix, because you can't force someone to respect you, only to fake it.
>> Longer term, I'm looking into options for moving out, before my mental wellbeing takes too many more hits. (I think the household will be mostly stable after I leave...) <<
The sooner you can do that, the better.
Meanwhile, it may help to spend time with other people who respect and value you, so they can say, "Dude, that ain't right. You deserve better." It buffers against the abuser's attitude soaking in.
>> Outright trying breaking the social network is out, as is trying to drive someone to a nervous breakdown. (Too much collateral damage, counterproductive to some of my longer-term goals, and for various reasons I'd consider it unethical.) <<
Only you can decide how much damage you can take and still recover, or what you consider ethical and why. These are important things to think about.
Consider also: how would you respond if that person treated a friend that way? Or an actual child without status yet?
>> I am not ruling out snapping back in an argument. Or having prepared arguments. <<
It is better to prepare arguments in advance than to snap under stress. Your intellect can usually put forth better arguments than your lizardbrain.
However, consider what you would do if you had to leave the house immediately, without warning. In any abusive situation, it is prudent to have a go-bag and a bolthole in case someone starts throwing crockery at you for having a spine.
>> I may try the 'you're being rude to me' or 'why should I take advice from someone who thinks harassment/double standards are polite?' <<
Those are apt.
You may also consider: "No, the way you talk to me makes me feel bad. I don't want to make anyone feel bad, because I use etiquette to make life nicer. So I won't emulate your example."
Something you can say in more oblique contexts: "People may forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel." It is prevailingly true.
Another indirect approach: look for television shows about intercultural etiquette and play them. I saw one the other day that was actually about doing magic tricks, but the magician was at a supper lesson on different ethnic dining rules.
>> I don't think I know enough to do immersion ettiquite, but I do have a variety of random facts. (Some countries consider knives/forks at the table to be barbaric. Medival Europe and the modern Middle East eat with their fingers. Some religions consider eating meat, or certain meat to be unethical...and so on.) <<
Random facts also work, and are less crushing. If the person whines, you can just give an innocent look and say, "But you're always talking about etiquette, I thought you were interested in it. We don't have to talk about etiquette if you don't want to." And the next time they whip out theirs, it's "But I thought you didn't want to talk about etiquette." Etiquette either is or is not an acceptable topic: they don't get to talk about it if you don't.
>> Asked _nicely_. If you scream at me, do it yourself. <<
Yeah, me too. I usually say, "You don't get to treat me like that. Do it yourself."
>> And even then, I refuse most housekeeping tasks for this reason. ("Please do X. No, not like that!") <<
If you ask someone to do something, you give them responsibility for it. If you need it done a specific way, either state that -- and make sure they're confident they can do it -- or do it yourself.
hahaa!
Date: 2020-10-07 05:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2020-10-07 11:49 pm (UTC)*Please note, our context involves knowing and being on reasonably good terms with people, instead of 'meet the Japanese CEO youve never seen before to discuss the merger.'
Specifically, if two people are using 'extra polite' manners and dancing around the issue, it may never get resolved.
Doubly so if power dynamics mean one of the people is uncomfortable
even /implying/ that they are unhappy/ungrateful.
Asking more direct questions has ended a weeks-long problem-solving discussion I've been having in like, 3 days!
Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-08 12:18 am (UTC)Sometimes it can, if both cultures are capable of handling bluntness. If not, and Japanese is a good example of when not to try it, then it makes matters worse -- like knocking on a turtle to make it come out.
>> *Please note, our context involves knowing and being on reasonably good terms with people, instead of 'meet the Japanese CEO youve never seen before to discuss the merger.' <<
Also true.
>> Specifically, if two people are using 'extra polite' manners and dancing around the issue, it may never get resolved. <<
It's worse when two different cultures are using high politeness. In the same culture, there are usually little outs you can take, but across cultures nobody knows each other's outs.
>> Doubly so if power dynamics mean one of the people is uncomfortable
even /implying/ that they are unhappy/ungrateful.<<
Yeah. You can't communicate if someone's choosing not to communicate.
This is why some folks dislike the concept of etiquette, because it relies so much on lying. Since my feelings rarely align with mainstream etiquette, it's just an exercise in fakery for me, where I can neither be myself nor believe anything that anyone else says. I hate that. I'd rather turn a compost heap with a hand trowel. >_<
>> Asking more direct questions has ended a weeks-long problem-solving discussion I've been having in like, 3 days! <<
This works if people can handle Ask mode instead of Hint mode. But if they're heavily Hint, they will get exhausted and miserable very fast.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-08 01:45 am (UTC)>>Yeah. You can't communicate if someone's choosing not to communicate.
<<
Yeah. We had one situation where we had to keep one person away from another (personality/expectation/culture? clash), but one person was 'Drama! Upset! Attention! Why!?' and the other was avoid/avoid/avoid, 'Don't want to cause a problem.' (We just had the quiet person work with other people, and distracted the louder one if it came up.)
>>It's worse when two different cultures are using high politeness.<<
Add in a language barrier, and having to talk by translation app.
>>This works if people...<<
Well we've been polite at each other for weeks. Directness sorted out the issue in a few days.
I'm usually Hint, but I'm not sure about the other person or their culture. And we are not fluent in each others' languages.