ysabetwordsmith | Another Autistic = Fey Thing

From:

That's why I tend to refer to us as possible inspiration for changeling spirits. So many parents talk as if their "real" child has been replaced by some other strange child in the parent of autistic children narratives. It's actually kinda really creepy to read.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> That's why I tend to refer to us as possible inspiration for changeling spirits. <<

I have thought of that too.

>> So many parents talk as if their "real" child has been replaced by some other strange child in the parent of autistic children narratives. It's actually kinda really creepy to read. <<

Well, there are two leading explanations for this:

* Some autistic babies seem to show divergence immediately (like refusing to be cuddled) but many seem neurotypical until changing -- sometimes abruptly -- as toddlers. In the latter case, parents may have grown accustomed to the personality only to have the shift make it seem like a whole different person. And they always prefer the first one.

* Some parents have a preconceived idea of their child that has nothing to do with the actual child. Or do the same with other people too. They interact with this hallucination as if it were real, and resent the actual person doing anything to disturb that. It is fucking creepy.

From:

serpentine

I meant it was creepy in how similar the narratives were to changeling stories. I'm pretty familiar with why so many parents say it. Fortunately my parents are okay with weird and my mother liked the fact that I was good at keeping myself occupied. It also helps that I'm on the more neurotypical passing part of the spectrum.

(It is odd that I remember being able to keep myself occupied because I was imaginative even though there are postulations that autistic people are "less imaginative". It is probably because we don't care to share our imagination with others for the most part when we are children.)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

I think it's because autistic people think differently.

The lists are raddled with "inappropriate." Calling play inappropriate makes me want to beat people over the head with blocks. Is it breaking anything? Is it making anyone bleed? If not, then whatever the kids are doing with the toys is FINE. It's just that neurovariant kids like to wave toys around and talk about them, while neurotypical kids often like to line them up. The neurovariant kid may be comparing size, color, shape -- there is always a rationale behind it, and putting things in order trips the pleasure circuit for them in the same way that making up stories does for other kids. If they're imagining characters, it's more often like mental scorecards, which of these toys would match with whom. The only wrong way to play with toys is when it causes an actual problem, not because some overprivileged idiot doesn't like what someone finds entertaining.

From:

alatefeline

>> The lists are raddled with "inappropriate." <<

Yes.

From:

chanter1944

I've seen your second example in practice, unrelated to the autistic spectrum but very much connected to a child with a visible physical disability. It is both exhausting and exasperating, and frankly insulting besides. Hint, that kid with a disability? Yours truly with the long hair over here.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

:( It really sucks. I'm sorry that's happened to you.

Some of my relatives are that way. They don't like my politics, religion, sexuality, dietary requirements &c &c &c ... "You just gestured to all of me." I don't know why they say they want me around. From their speech and behavior, I have eventually formed the impression that it's because they keep hoping I'll turn into the poppet they have in their heads.

O_O

From:

stardreamer

Your second example is an extreme case of Not The Child I Had In Mind syndrome, which my parents had. No matter what I did, it was not what the child they had in mind would have done, and that meant I was Doin It Rong. They had really, really wanted a child and only resorted to adoption when they couldn't conceive -- the problem was that they didn't want ME.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if they hadn't married each other. As a Perfect Healthy White Infant, I would almost certainly still have been adopted, but it would have been by some other couple, and that has the potential to have been either very much better or very much worse.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> Your second example is an extreme case of Not The Child I Had In Mind syndrome, which my parents had. No matter what I did, it was not what the child they had in mind would have done, and that meant I was Doin It Rong. They had really, really wanted a child and only resorted to adoption when they couldn't conceive -- the problem was that they didn't want ME. <<

Wow, that really sucks. :(

For all that some of my relatives are unappreciative of me, my parents are not on that list. My weirdnesses have often confused and frustrated them, but they love me to the ends of the Earth. And my father knew a fair bit of what he was getting, despite everyone insisting it was impossible. The Universe bent a few things to make it happen. We're all lucky.

>> I sometimes wonder what would have happened if they hadn't married each other. As a Perfect Healthy White Infant, I would almost certainly still have been adopted, but it would have been by some other couple, and that has the potential to have been either very much better or very much worse. <<

Yeah ... those what-ifs will drive you crazy.

From:

alatefeline

I do see your point.

That poster makes me really angry, though. I can recall a childhood incident that someone on the outside would probably have describe as "apparent insensitivity to pain" on which in fact what I was experiencing was, "this hurts A LOT and your idea of how to comfort me will make it hurt much much worse." I scratched my arm and it was bleeding, and I shouted at my mother when she tried to hug me - because when I was already that overstimulated, a hug felt like being crushed. I needed my pain to be acknowledged in a way that made didn't make it worse, and my only defense was pushing people away as they tried to insist on hurting me. That's one example among many. The entire ideological orientation of that poster is describing behavior as if it was unjustified and nonsensical, when that attitude contributes to the dehumanization of autistic people and people with disabilities.

Here's an article that I find usefully expresses a point of view similar to mine on the topic.
http://ollibean.com/i-dont-want-your-awareness/

And because I don't want to ONLY look at the autism piece of this, when my interlocutor self-identifies as fey (please correct me on terminology if necessary)...

Here's a few different websites with words from people describing themselves as fey, fae, faeries, and so on.
http://www.radfae.org/faerielist/
http://sites.psu.edu/245spring2015/2015/04/28/rewriting-black-lesbian-history-through-the-watermelon-woman/
http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/post/66494772838/pronouns-i-have-encountered-in-no-particular-order
http://faeriemagick.com/faeries-in-your-family-tree/
http://www.feritradition.org/faq.html
Note that I don't necessarily agree with or endorse everything on these websites nor expect others to, I just wanted to include some voices other than my own, while trying to steer clear of outright shouting-down and shutting-off. Unfortunately, for this reason I have to disrecommend this otherwise informative wiki article:
http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Otherkin
I also caution anyone searching for a number of related concepts such as otherkin forums, fae pronouns, fairy art, fairy paganism and pagan/Wiccan traditions, African fairy stories, Native American fairy stories, etc, that there is a great dear of shaming and vitriol. I am having a hard time finding information in all the shouting at *each other* taking place under the wide umbrella of people who are oppressed and othered, which saddens me.

I want there to be room for everyone, I want there to be room for me, and I also know that sometimes I need to move over so someone else can have enough space. I want more than a starvation model of love, creative expression, or identity; I want to say "let's have autistic people and Aspie people and faeries and elves and other sorts of people too." I want to find resources when I go looking for resources, whether they are for me or for someone else. I want a Black lesbian female starship captain using a wheelchair and a Latinx pansexual nonbinary elven autistic High King to sit down for freaking tea.

From:

lilly_c

Some of those things on the poster overlap with dyspraxia too.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

And Sensory Processing Disorder, and many other neurovariances.

From:

lilly_c

Yes, there is a lot of overlap with them.

From:

alatefeline

Good to know. Thank you.

From:

shiori_makiba

O.o That poster . . . jeez.

You know how in the "may prefer to be alone" and "difficulty interacting with others" ones that the presumably autistic person's head is bowed . . . It's almost like it saying it's sad have those characteristics . . . characteristics that are not exclusive to autism either . . . so great, we can add introvert shaming to its list of sins.

Personally speaking, sometimes I find eye contact uncomfortable and avoid it and I'm not autistic as far as I know. Just introverted with anxiety (and other people are one of things that makes me anxious).

I also sometimes repeat back things but that is usually because I'm trying to make sure I heard and understood what they were saying correctly. Because sometimes my brain interprets audio data oddly.

And what does "unusual" play even mean?

And how exactly are they defining "inappropriate"?
(Probably whatever annoys the person making the judgement call)

From:

alatefeline

Exactly.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>> You know how in the "may prefer to be alone" and "difficulty interacting with others" ones that the presumably autistic person's head is bowed . . . It's almost like it saying it's sad have those characteristics . . . characteristics that are not exclusive to autism either . . . so great, we can add introvert shaming to its list of sins. <<

I did notice that. It was frustrating, because the poster's use of icons as well as text is enabling for less-verbal, more-visual people. But if you look at actual body language then autistic, introverted, etc. people tend to have happy body language until someone tries to force them into activities they find unpleasant or painful.

>>Personally speaking, sometimes I find eye contact uncomfortable and avoid it and I'm not autistic as far as I know. Just introverted with anxiety (and other people are one of things that makes me anxious).<<

In fact, there are whole cultures that work that way. Eye contact, intimate questions, intruding on other people's space, etc. are seen as extremely rude. Japan and most Native American tribes are examples of places where eye contact is frowned upon.

>> I also sometimes repeat back things but that is usually because I'm trying to make sure I heard and understood what they were saying correctly. Because sometimes my brain interprets audio data oddly.<<

Yep, that's true across SPD and hearing impairment too.

>> And what does "unusual" play even mean? <<

Anything that's not the same as what other kids are doing. It is punishment of difference in the most literal sense possible.

And then they wonder why autistic people are "anti-social." I think most of them just don't want to be around assholes. Who wants to spend time with people who demand that you hurt yourself before they'll even speak with you? A great big fuck no to that.

>> And how exactly are they defining "inappropriate"?
(Probably whatever annoys the person making the judgement call) <<

That's the main definition. Disability defined as a failure to be pleasing. Secondarily, see above, anything different from the majority preference.

From:

stardreamer

Add me to the list of people who think "prefers to be alone" shouldn't even be on that list. Being an introvert doesn't mean you're broken.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

The poster is really about power, not disability. It's about how the people in power get to define what sanity is and who gets shut out of society for not being human enough. >_<

Who wouldn't prefer to be alone, if the people around them routinely hurt them, refuse to acknowledge that, are not sorry for it, feel altogether entitled to do it, and then punish the victim for objecting to the abuse? Of course the kids withdraw. Most abuse victims do. It's safer.

From: (Anonymous)

As for those who note the abuse and either call foul or withdraw (or do both as I did) the tag of antisocial gets tagged on too.

As well as antiauthoritian/authority issues.since.if I.do.have an issue its.with.keeping my beak.shut.

Victum or protester of the system, neither are treated well.

Rather true of.all.systems realy.

(Ps. Sorry about all.the dots my phn confuses the space bar w.the.puncuation tab and its nearly imposoble.to.fix.)

From:

ysabetwordsmith

Oppositional Defiant Disorder would be better termed Low Bullshit Tolerance or Nobody's Easy Meat. They can still abuse you all they want, but you don't have to help.

From: (Anonymous)

Nods to the "low" title.

Called it that before it fits best.

I always found the acronym for the formal name ( o.d.d. )rather amusing.

From:

callibr8

>> Who wouldn't prefer to be alone, if the people around them routinely hurt them, refuse to acknowledge that, are not sorry for it, feel altogether entitled to do it, and then punish the victim for objecting to the abuse? <<

So. Much. This.

>> Of course the kids withdraw. Most abuse victims do. It's safer. <<

Well.... maybe. Yes, it's safer either when there's somewhere to hide/withdraw to, or when one figures out how to "hide in plain sight". But sometimes there's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Those are the *really* tough times.

From:

ysabetwordsmith

There are doors that cannot be locked.

The biggest of those is death; many people retreat through suicide, the ultimate flight response shouting "I don't even want to be on the same planet with you fuckers anymore."

The smaller ones open into whole hallways of dissociative responses. Ignoring people. Daydreaming. Humming and rocking. Excessive sleep. Zoning out. Selective mutism. At the extreme end, it gets into traumatic fragmentation of the personality, which is now called "dissociative identity disorder" rather than "multiple personality disorder."

Me, I'm lucky, I have ulterior resources. A lot of my survival skills are permed. So if someone starts tormenting me, overtly or covertly, then for instance the torture resistance techniques come online. I used them a lot in school because it was boring to the point of pain. Fine then, I'll put the damn body on autopilot and skip over to another dimension where something actually worth observing is going on.

From:

callibr8

>> school because it was boring to the point of pain. <<

Very much so. I am grateful that my linguistic faculties are as top-notch as they are; the ability to read, and decent access to a variety of interesting reading material (particularly speculative fiction and biographies, in my K-12 years), were literally lifesaving for me.

>> Fine then, I'll put the damn body on autopilot <<

Yep! Helped to have a tape-loop-buffer running for times when a teacher pointed to one and demanded to know, "What did I just say?" ... Repeating her words back, verbatim, with inflection, in sober and respectful tones, sure was handy! A skill similar to what Drew Finn described to Shiv during their first meeting, iirc.

>> and skip over to another dimension where something actually worth observing is going on.<<

Now *that* is a very shiny ability! If my eyes weren't already green, they would be now, from envy. :-)

From:

redsixwing

Spins objects? Really? I don't think I've met any kids who don't delight in spinning whatever objects they can spin, whether or not they like to spin themselves. And every single adult I've interacted with at work - where we have spinny chairs - has spun the chair at one time or another. (I miss my wireless headset, for spinning during meetings...)

>>Some parents have a preconceived idea of their child that has nothing to do with the actual child. Or do the same with other people too. They interact with this hallucination as if it were real, and resent the actual person doing anything to disturb that. It is fucking creepy.<<

Augh. I have a couple family members who do this too. In one case, I think the image diverged when I was about eight - the other, I don't know, maybe toddler age. Either way, it's eerie having a conversation with someone who isn't seeing or hearing you.

I tend to avoid conversation with people who do that.

From:

zeeth_kyrah

I have two nephews who delight in spinning the big spinny easy chair in their grandparents' living room. Of course, the boys also delight in leaping upon it like a pair of nose tackles and bashing the poor thing to pieces because it rocks a bit on its spindle. That part is no good, but spinning the spinny chair? Sure, why not?

From:

ysabetwordsmith

>>Spins objects? Really? I don't think I've met any kids who don't delight in spinning whatever objects they can spin, whether or not they like to spin themselves. <<

Yeah, it's like they forgot about tops and merry-go-rounds. 0_o

>>Either way, it's eerie having a conversation with someone who isn't seeing or hearing you.

I tend to avoid conversation with people who do that.<<

Agreed.

From:

kimuro.livejournal.com

Any careful reading of changeling tales reveals that those so identified represent a range of illnesses and genetic disorders. Polio, menegitis, Downs syndrome, Williams-Beuran syndrome as well as autism ... and others, I'm sure. As a mother with a son on the spectrum ... and being myself on the spectrum, those tales infuriate me.

From:

ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com

I think part of that is perspective, and part of it depends on which stories you read. There are some about the humans abusing the fey and getting away with it; the changeling branch is one of the few where that seems to be the norm instead of the exception. Most of the stories have an underlying theme of "do not fuck with the Good People or they will destroy you." I like that. I especially like the ones where a human goes Underhill and doesn't know any of the manners and everything they do is wrooooooong.

From:

rhodielady-47.livejournal.com

THIS begins to make me wonder if many of the so-called "fey" people were in reality on the autistic spectrum!

I also realize sadly that all the traditional folklore recommended such "fey" be treated in very rough if not lethal ways--particularly babies and very young children!
:^{

From:

ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com

>> THIS begins to make me wonder if many of the so-called "fey" people were in reality on the autistic spectrum! <<

That's one possibility. Another is overlap. A third is that this is what happens when fey genes suddenly re-express themselves due to a change in environment. There are many tales about fey lovers, after all. I know some morphlocked selkies. The physical traits, however, are still manifest in things like being able to locomote immediately after birth. Human infants just don't do that.

>> I also realize sadly that all the traditional folklore recommended such "fey" be treated in very rough if not lethal ways--particularly babies and very young children!
:^{ <<

Yeah, that's a problem. But the changeling branch is almost the only one where humans get away with that. Normally if you piss off the fey, they destroy your life for it. They're very powerful. And I like that representation of difference as an asset. The breadth of fairytales is exceptional for exploring difference and disability. Some are proud to be fey, to be monsters, to be aside from the ordinary. Some are ashamed of it. That's life.

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