Amish Technology
Sep. 13th, 2014 01:37 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithHere's a cool article about the Amish adoption of technology. They all follow one basic rule: if a new thing is more trouble than it's worth, they won't use it. Different Amish communities draw that line in different places.
I actually use that rule myself, again with a different threshold. I've had people call me Amish, meaning it as an insult, for not using things they think I should be using that I don't use because they're worthless or troublesome for me. I say, "No, but that is where I got the idea." It's a great rule. It saves so many headaches. I'm neophilic in many ways. But I've seen society make a lot of stupid mistakes, and its safety precautions are abysmal. This contributes to my caution about adopting new things myself. I look for the drawbacks.
Most people don't. Their default is to accept new technology. They often don't consider the costs.
I actually use that rule myself, again with a different threshold. I've had people call me Amish, meaning it as an insult, for not using things they think I should be using that I don't use because they're worthless or troublesome for me. I say, "No, but that is where I got the idea." It's a great rule. It saves so many headaches. I'm neophilic in many ways. But I've seen society make a lot of stupid mistakes, and its safety precautions are abysmal. This contributes to my caution about adopting new things myself. I look for the drawbacks.
Most people don't. Their default is to accept new technology. They often don't consider the costs.
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(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 07:21 am (UTC)Well...
Date: 2014-09-13 07:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 11:37 am (UTC)As far as new things are concerned, I'm a budding luddite -- I don't have a mixer or food processor and I baked by hand. But think of it from the other perspective, jumping on a new fad allows you to play with a new toy and have company doing so. It might be more work, more expense and less utility, but it expands your mind and gives you a shared experience with all the fad jumpers. It allows a little social prestige over everyone who isn't playing with the latest toys.
Well...
Date: 2014-09-13 07:38 pm (UTC)I have an ice cream scoop made of metal that melts things on contact, with a sharpish point to dig into stiff ice cream. I saw it demonstrated once and said "I want one." Science can be awesome.
A product has to do something I want or need, be reasonably affordable and durable, be safe, and be easy to use. Otherwise I won't bother. The number of things fitting these minimum standards is surprisingly small.
I apply technology unevenly
Date: 2014-09-13 02:35 pm (UTC)Our previous stove had bells and whistles which I not only never used, but which I felt were an annoying distraction while the stove was on, and a pain in the mikta to clean. Unfortunately, it's exactly like trying to find a manual transmission car in the current market, even USED cars-- fewer than four came through a lot which sold four hundred cars last year, and right now only seven percent (7%) of American licensed drivers can DRIVE a stick. That number is declining!
When we lose the ability to pattern HOW to do things for ourselves which a new gadget does --usually behind the scenes like a black box magic trick-- we're also losing connections to older technology.
I am, however. left with an urge to mutter about "Kids these days-- no respect!" though.
Re: I apply technology unevenly
Date: 2014-09-14 08:11 pm (UTC)That's how I feel about most technology. If I can't use it or won't bother, it's not worth buying. I'll just wind up doing without anyhow. I might as well do without and still have the money to spend on something else.
>> Unfortunately, it's exactly like trying to find a manual transmission car in the current market <<
When our last oven died, we went shopping. They were insanely expensive, had tiny door windows if any, were all computerized, and met none of my needs except getting hot inside. I couldn't justify spending thousands of dollars on that kind of crap. So we bought a $99 mini-oven with a rotisserie function. I love this thing. The only drawback is its small size means a lot of things won't fit in it. But we have a roaster oven and some big crockpots so there are other ways to make large quantities of food.
Being unable to drive vehicles makes me anxious though. I would have liked to keep that option in case of emergency.
>> When we lose the ability to pattern HOW to do things for ourselves which a new gadget does --usually behind the scenes like a black box magic trick-- we're also losing connections to older technology. <<
Yes, almost everything is "no user-serviceable parts inside" now. If it breaks, you can't fix it. That's a problem. It makes everyone almost wholly dependent on other people, instead of self-sufficient for at least the basics. Most people don't even know how to grow food or make clothes. *twitch* I may not be good at raising most food, but at least I know the theory and can raise some things.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 03:27 pm (UTC)Other than that, I'm very resistant to tech. I *still* wish it were possible to live without a mobile phone (although I gave in as 'easier to say yes' to getting a smartphone when paleo Nokia went missing earlier in the year; but the kids are all getting the cheapest phones available). I like the car I have, and get antsy every time partner starts trash talking it with the aim to replace it (I talked to our mechanic, who was of the opinion that the particular motor we have is likely to do 500 000 km without problems, and we are only halfway there. Other things may fail, but not as dramatically as an engine).
and I hold to a lot of older behaviours - handcrafts, and music to fill evenings (even though I *still* haven't got a functioning string quartet in the house).
Thoughts
Date: 2014-09-13 07:30 pm (UTC)When I was young, my mother brought home a TRS-80. I tried speaking to it. After she stopped laughing, she explained that it was just a baby and computers would take decades to grow up enough to understand ordinary human speech. (That scene with Scotty? "A keyboard ... how quaint." I'm guessing I wasn't the only person who had this experience growing up.) So I largely lost interest in computers, which has revived only somewhat as they became able to do more things I find useful.
Electronic publication, however, I knew was coming as soon as people started using computers for communication rather than just to run programs. Okay, that's something awesome enough to follow and tell people where it's going. I just skipped ahead to the good parts rather than wait for everyone to catch up. Same with crowdfunding. I may not have all the tools needed, but I can turn out quite a bit with just what's in reach.
>> I *still* wish it were possible to live without a mobile phone (although I gave in as 'easier to say yes' to getting a smartphone when paleo Nokia went missing earlier in the year; but the kids are all getting the cheapest phones available). <<
The only reason I have a mobile phone is because someone resorted to threats and tantrums wanting me to have one for their own comfort. The fact that I cannot use one effectively was not a concern.
>> I like the car I have, and get antsy every time partner starts trash talking it with the aim to replace it <<
I suspect vehicles have simply passed outside the range of what I can safely drive. Our previous one seemed uncomfortable enough that I didn't drive it, but thought I might manage in an emergency. With the current one, which was not my selection, I couldn't even try. It's so far out of my range that it's unpleasant to be in, let alone try to control. So I reorganized things for fewer trips to minimize the exposure.
>> and I hold to a lot of older behaviours - handcrafts, and music to fill evenings (even though I *still* haven't got a functioning string quartet in the house). <<
*laugh* I hand sew because I'm too lazy to use a machine. I know how a sewing machine works; I can use one if it's running correctly; but I can't keep it running correctly. Plus it can only be used on a table or other sewing station. Lapwork I can do on the couch while someone is talking. Hand sewing I'll actually finish. So that's what I do. And then people stare when I tell them how I made my partner's swordsman shirt. Because it's easier that way, that's why. It's a permed skill. I can't even make myself leave the seams raw on the inside. I have to roll them or French them, because that makes the garment more durable. That habit is as old as sewing cloth in the first place.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-09-15 02:40 pm (UTC)And yet, I spend quite a lot of time crocheting. I've finished 5 rugs that I can think of this year, and have at least 3 on the go (for reasons that boil down to 'this particular technique makes my hands hurt, I'll do something else that won't for a bit'). I flirt with knitting, but I'm still on the project I started last winter (good thing I went for making it large...)
one of the nice things about our car is that it is relatively large, but manual. Getting tricky to get both of these. Manual cars are common if you want small/runabouts, but not if you want family sized vehicles. I probably couldn't do the maintenance on this one, even if I'd kept my hand in, because there are aspects to the way that the engine is maintained that I haven't been able to wrap my head around. But I can still think myself into the skin of it some of the time, which is good enough for me. Really, what I want, is to skip the next few generations of car, and wait for the individual self-guided bubbles, that connect up on the freeway, and is run by distributed processors (every car its own computer, but wifi or equivalent linked to everything within x distance, and a 'caterpillar' of cars delegates decisions to the front computer with input from the rest - bit like neurons).
(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 04:42 pm (UTC)Similarly I was an early adopter of Linux, but I continue to use emacs for almost all my text-editing needs -- I didn't start using an IDE for Java programming until 2012.
Never did get an electric guitar.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-14 03:56 am (UTC)I keep at least one electronic device on a completely stable, as far from being likely to break as possible, so that all communication functions are intact... and in the meantime I explore the bleeding edge. My significant other claims that I'm not truly happy unless something is broken; I like problem-solving and I thrive under the pressure of knowing that if I don't get X working then I can't do Y. A little controlled chaos is good for me.
It's a hobby, though, and I don't expect other people to do the same thing. I actively discourage other people from doing the same thing, unless they're like me. I want to know what's out there, and I want to be one of the people that improves on it if I can be. But if it's just about "this will be better!" every time something new comes along? I'd be the first person to tell you "no, some stuff is actually pretty terrible." I sometimes wish that I could talk people out of using things that... I'm actually using at the time.
I honestly feel like spending so much time with extremely new technology and software makes me more aware than the average person of how much stuff really is more trouble than it's worth. After all, the trouble is what I'm drawn to; we all learn to recognize the things we like pretty quick!
Perhaps I'd be one of those constant early adopters the article mentioned, finding community solutions to the problems various tech presents when there's a solution out there or going "NO NO NO PUT THAT DOWN" when it's not going to do people a lot of good. It might be hard to convince me to put down my toys, though, not on the basis of "but I think this is a good idea for everyone to do this right now!" but more "give me another year and I know I can make this work!" when I could be doing more valuable things with my time.
Well...
Date: 2014-09-14 04:10 am (UTC)It almost certainly does. Bleeding-edge technology can be awesome, but it also tends to be clunky, fragile, expensive, and sometimes dangerous.
I like playing with new things. But I am usually disappointed with their applicability to my life. I'll poke at them if they're available. The chance of them surviving my proximity and passing my standards is, alas, very small.
It's kind of like watching a lion play with a mouse.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-14 06:38 am (UTC)With as much traveling as we do, smartphones are a necessity -- we need the ability to check the route ahead for traffic problems, look at the weather, find a specific type of store in a strange city, etc. In fact, we really needed them several years before we actually got them (see again, late adopter). There are still aspects of having them that are less than ideal, but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. OTOH, I don't conduct any financial activity via smartphone, because I don't want my account information being stored on it.
What we don't have that everyone else considers a necessity of life is cable TV. We have a TV (an ancient CRT model), but it's only used as a DVD player.
Thoughts
Date: 2014-09-14 06:46 am (UTC)Agreed: because once I find something that does what I need, the chance of it getting worse is higher than the chance of it getting better, and learning anything new on a computer eats spoons by the drawerful for me.
>> What we don't have that everyone else considers a necessity of life is cable TV. <<
Same here. My partner wants it back eventually. I don't.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-15 01:19 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-09-15 01:23 am (UTC)History isn't historically accurate anymore.
Science mostly isn't science anymore.
Animation has live-action.
Animal Planet has more pop-culture yawping or downright gross things than relaxing pictures of scenery and critters.
Cooking is a nightmare screamfest instead of yummy recipes and I won't even go into the creepy chick coming on to the audience my god put your tits away and pay attention to the stove before something catches on fire.
SyFy ... *spit* learn to fucking spell.
So yeah. I do not need that.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 07:20 am (UTC)As an aside, I once went a friend's party in PA, with his house on the edge of a piece of Amish farmland. The farmer was plowing his fields with the traditional horse team.... and a small gas motor turning the blades of the plow
Yes...
Date: 2014-09-13 07:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 09:46 am (UTC)What I'd be really interested now is an as-unbiased-as-can-be study comparing electrical and pneumatic appliances/tools/machinery.
Well...
Date: 2014-09-13 09:54 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 07:01 pm (UTC)Brick Nokias FOREVER. You can hit those things with a truck and they'll still keep working.
--Rogan
Yes...
Date: 2014-09-13 07:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 11:44 am (UTC)And this does not even aim at elder humans...
Well...
Date: 2014-09-13 07:17 pm (UTC)This is one reason I don't watch TV anymore. My standard for a user-friendly TV is to push one button to turn it on, and twist one dial to see what's playing. I do not like TV enough to invest any more energy than that. So at this point, we watch one DVD episode of something a night, and that's because someone else works the equipment. I don't care enough about it to do it myself.
Further consider that the more complex things become, the easier they break and the harder they are to repair. Since America is rapidly getting poorer, this also undermines the market for and use of fancy gadgets. But it's not something people track; they're only watching the part of the economy that chases the the newest release trying to keep up with the Gateses. And then they wonder why it's so sluggish.
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-09-13 08:43 pm (UTC)The thing my mind perhaps will consider about this is: First, how much is the cost? And second, can it spy me?
You know, lots of people run around with this stuff, lots of people have this stuff in their living room, but if you see how much it is, you shake your head and wonder which kind of contract with the devil do they have to be able to afford all this. For the cell-phones the trick is easy - have it with a contract. There simply is no other way.
But for the TVs, for the home electronics - a few hundred Euros and some people need to live on that. And it's not like only those people afford this to themselves which have an income which easily covers that. (If this would be the case, a lot more still would need to use their old tube tv.)
To me in my rational mind, the sum of what I get and the sum of what I have to give don't have a match.
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-09-13 08:52 pm (UTC)Often true.
>> The thing my mind perhaps will consider about this is: First, how much is the cost? And second, can it spy me? <<
I resent spyware. I avoid it as much as possible, no matter how shiny the bait it is attached to. I also resent nagware. Screens that threaten criminal penalties for using the product in unapproved ways just make me want to not use the product. Fuck it, I have books that don't say mean things to me, I have gardens, I have crowdfunding full of people who are actually fun to be around. I don't need this shit.
>> And it's not like only those people afford this to themselves which have an income which easily covers that. <<
It's a price people are charged for participating in society, though. More places are forcing people to be on the grid even if they don't want to be. To have a job -- to survive -- you have to have a home, a phone, usually a car, etc. And there's a very disturbing trend away from things you buy once and own, to things you have to pay for all the time and only borrow because they're really controlled by someone else. That's not only abusive, it also runs up the base budget at a time when people's real spending power is plummeting.
Horsepower is self-replicating. You don't go out to the barn and find a baby tractor one morning. Open-pollinated crops are self-replicating. GMOs and hybrids are either designed not to reproduce, or the company will hunt you down for saving the seeds. They want to force farmers to keep buying their shit. People don't want to buy their shit, so they're working to make alternatives unavailable or outright illegal. It's a problem.
Re: Well...
Date: 2014-09-13 09:43 pm (UTC)Before I start trying to impress anyone, I've got to ensure that electricity is running, that I know how to warm the room when it's winter outside, that I have clean water access and that I don't starve.
I don't know if it is the way, but it seems like people already take this a bit too self-evidently. That's why they have such switched priorities.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-09-13 11:55 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2014-09-13 07:03 pm (UTC)Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-09-13 08:39 pm (UTC)Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-09-14 03:56 am (UTC)So they set up the new colony without any tronics whatsoever 'cept a few inside a Faraday-caged bunker. And a group of Mennonites to show people how to run the "ancient" tech they *were* using.
It was a good story. :)
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-09-14 04:08 am (UTC)I've been so many people, a lot of my skills are permed. The way I braid, some of the things I do when sewing or gardening, some of my cooking techniques, those aren't things anyone taught me in this life. I carried them in with me. So if advanced technology is unavailable, I have other options. Hell, some of what I'm doing now is using other options than higher levels of tech I remember.
One of the few ways to make me pounce on new tech is if it hits my "Oh, I remember this!" button.