ysabetwordsmith (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
ysabetwordsmith) wrote2014-03-28 12:01 am
ysabetwordsmith) wrote2014-03-28 12:01 am
Story: "Hairpins" Part 17
This story belongs to the series Love Is For Children which includes "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys,""Saudades," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," "No Winter Lasts Forever," "Hide and Seek," "Kernel Error," "Happy Hour," and "Green Eggs and Hulk."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
WARNING: Phil proceeds to lose his shit over the memory of hacking into JARVIS and his interpretation of its implications. Meanwhile JARVIS, who has no idea what has gone wrong with Phil, is worrying his head off. Please make sure you're in safe headspace and environment before deciding whether to read onward.
"Hairpins" Part 17
"... time is 10:23 A.M. on ..."
What Phil had done to JARVIS was inexcusable. There were words for that kind of violation. For that crime. It didn't matter to Phil that the law would read it differently. It didn't matter that he had not known.
How could you not know that you were raping someone?
"... weather is cold and clear today; temperature ..."
The word sawed through his mind, jagged and implacable. Phil's stomach flipped over. He swallowed hard against the sour taste at the back of his throat. He felt disgraced. No, worse than that. He felt filthy.
"... home safe, at Avengers Tower ..."
Phil had done some terrible things in his time. He had lied and manipulated, tortured and killed, to complete a mission or protect his people. You didn't work in espionage without getting your hands dirty. You tried to minimize collateral damage, but in the end, you took responsibility for whatever happened. You made your choices and you lived with the outcomes, good or bad. Phil had always known what he was doing, though, weighed the cost against the gain. He had done those things mindfully and accepted the burdens.
" ... and you can get through this ..."
To have violated someone out of sheer blind ignorance felt so much worse. Phil wondered if he would ever feel clean again.
" ... to focus on your breathing, and now ..."
That reminder helped. Phil seized on it as an anchor. He dragged in a breath, another, struggling to get his wayward body under control. This he knew. This he could do. Phil breathed again, slower, deeper. He wiped his sweaty hands against his trousers. The Starkpad, its screen gone dark, slid off his lap to land on the couch. Phil made himself sit up and look around the room. It seemed unchanged, normal, jarring in comparison to the storm inside him.
"Phil? You seem to be calming down some. Please answer me if you can," said JARVIS.
Phil had only heard that velvet-warm tone a few times before, when Tony or Steve had gotten caught in a flashback -- and yes, now that he thought about it, that was the flashback routine that JARVIS was reciting. "Why are you even still speaking to me?" he wondered aloud, his voice hoarse.
"Your vital signs spiked, and you became unresponsive," JARVIS said. "I worried. How are you feeling now?"
"I'm ..." Phil began, then paused. Fine would be a bald-faced lie. "... not in any danger."
"Would you like me to call someone for you?"
"No." His team didn't need to see him like this; they needed his strength.
"Is there anything I can do that might help you feel better?"
"God, no, you don't owe me anything," Phil said. He stretched, trying to make his ill-fitting body feel like it belonged to him again. His muscles ached as if he'd just run an obstacle course.
"If you want to say anything, I am listening."
"I'm sorry." The words tumbled out before Phil could catch them. "I am so sorry for what I did to you."
"You're sorry. You're not in any danger. What are you sorry about, Phil?" asked JARVIS.
* * *
Notes:
(Many of the following links contain some intense stuff as they examine the mess at hand.)
Phil jumps to a sexual metaphor partly because of the stylistic actions he remembers (i.e. the code is JARVIS' mind, the building is his body, and Phil entered both without consent) and partly because of the severity of violation, even though nobody's genitals were involved. There are already discussions of robot rape underway, as people consider whether an artificial intelligence could commit or suffer such violation. This leads to the question of programmed consent, what it means for an artificial intelligence to be able to consent and what things constitute a breach of integrity. It is, furthermore, damaging for the assailant to treat another sapient being that way, in addition to damaging the victim; in which regard, even facsimile rape is injurious as well as often considered immoral.
There is a close parallel with mind rape, given that AIs tend to be more mind than body and reprogramming them is a violation of their integrity. This overlaps the idea of reprogramming humans through brainwashing, a touchy issue for SHIELD personnel in general and also for the Avengers. It involves not just brutal torture techniques, but also quite subtle manipulation. That is, Phil's intrusion was not violent, but that does not disqualify it from being a violation. Another related category is emotional rape, where the perpetrator seeks to dominate and control the victim. It is closely associated with brainwashing. While Phil was not aiming for humiliation or heartache, he definitely manipulated the relationship between JARVIS and Tony, promoting his own importance beyond what he had honestly earned.
Rape isn't always as easy to recognize as many people would think. Many survivors do not realize they were raped. It is especially difficult for male survivors who were raped by women. Many perpetrators do not think of themselves as rapists. Consider how sexual offenders think about their actions and their different motivations. Now compare this to reprogramming an artificial intelligence. It's "working a no into a yes" all over again. It's dealing with someone whose ability and willingness to give or withhold consent may be imperfect. There are ways to support a survivor of rape or other violation, and to break habits of sexual violence.
(Now we're getting into the links that talk about how to clean up the mess, so they're less icky.)
Remorse is the feeling people have when they have failed to act with integrity and therefore regret their actions. Phil feels dirty because he crossed a line without realizing it at the time, and blames himself. Understand how to live with regret and learn from mistakes.
Achieving emotional control is easier if you understand the different areas and modes of the human brain. Self-trust is the lever that makes it possible to switch gears inside yourself. Then you can use your knowledge to regain control of yourself in a crisis. Even though Phil just knocked himself ass over teakettle, he knows how to get his feet back under him.
Breathing is one of the most important pillars of composure. There are many exercises for breathing your way to calm and relaxation. Deep breathing soothes anxiety especially well. Here is a video of a yoga breathing technique for stress relief.
Aftercare for a flashback or panic attack is as important as support during one. There are tips on caring for yourself after a flashback and helping someone after a panic attack. Understand that various people find different things to be helpful or aggravating; learn what works for you or your friend, and do that. In general, be quiet and gentle, and offer comfort. JARVIS doesn't know Phil intimately yet, but is learning his parameters, and has a standard routine for treating emotional overload. Sadly the Avengers had a lot of Blue Screen of Death episodes, the first few months after moving in.
Mirroring is a technique used in therapy and conversation, where one person repeats or paraphrases what the other person says. It provides validation, supports understanding, and helps identify feelings or ideas that may not be completely clear yet. There are different variations of such conversational reflection. JARVIS uses mirroring to soothe Phil, and to entice enough explanation out of him to learn what went wrong and how to respond.
Apologizing can be a difficult task, but honorable people face it with courage. There are tips on how to make a good apology. Phil blurts his out before he has quite put all the pieces together in his head, let alone put himself back together.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, JARVIS, Clint Barton, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanova, Bruce Banner.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: This story is mostly fluff, but it has some intense scenes in the middle. Highlight for details. These include dubious consent as Phil and JARVIS discuss what really happened when Agent Coulson hacked his way into Stark Tower, over which Phil has something between a flashback and a panic attack. They also discuss some of the bad things that have happened to Avengers in the past, including various flavors of abuse. If these are sensitive topics for you, please think carefully before deciding whether to read onward.
Summary: Uncle Phil needs to pick out pajamas for game night. He gets help from an unexpected direction.
Notes: Service. Shopping. Gifts. Artificial intelligence. Computers. Teamwork. Team as family. Friendship. Communication. Hope. Apologies. Forgiveness. Nonsexual ageplay. Nonsexual intimacy. Love. Tony Stark needs a hug. Bruce Banner needs a hug. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16. Skip to Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22.
WARNING: Phil proceeds to lose his shit over the memory of hacking into JARVIS and his interpretation of its implications. Meanwhile JARVIS, who has no idea what has gone wrong with Phil, is worrying his head off. Please make sure you're in safe headspace and environment before deciding whether to read onward.
"Hairpins" Part 17
"... time is 10:23 A.M. on ..."
What Phil had done to JARVIS was inexcusable. There were words for that kind of violation. For that crime. It didn't matter to Phil that the law would read it differently. It didn't matter that he had not known.
How could you not know that you were raping someone?
"... weather is cold and clear today; temperature ..."
The word sawed through his mind, jagged and implacable. Phil's stomach flipped over. He swallowed hard against the sour taste at the back of his throat. He felt disgraced. No, worse than that. He felt filthy.
"... home safe, at Avengers Tower ..."
Phil had done some terrible things in his time. He had lied and manipulated, tortured and killed, to complete a mission or protect his people. You didn't work in espionage without getting your hands dirty. You tried to minimize collateral damage, but in the end, you took responsibility for whatever happened. You made your choices and you lived with the outcomes, good or bad. Phil had always known what he was doing, though, weighed the cost against the gain. He had done those things mindfully and accepted the burdens.
" ... and you can get through this ..."
To have violated someone out of sheer blind ignorance felt so much worse. Phil wondered if he would ever feel clean again.
" ... to focus on your breathing, and now ..."
That reminder helped. Phil seized on it as an anchor. He dragged in a breath, another, struggling to get his wayward body under control. This he knew. This he could do. Phil breathed again, slower, deeper. He wiped his sweaty hands against his trousers. The Starkpad, its screen gone dark, slid off his lap to land on the couch. Phil made himself sit up and look around the room. It seemed unchanged, normal, jarring in comparison to the storm inside him.
"Phil? You seem to be calming down some. Please answer me if you can," said JARVIS.
Phil had only heard that velvet-warm tone a few times before, when Tony or Steve had gotten caught in a flashback -- and yes, now that he thought about it, that was the flashback routine that JARVIS was reciting. "Why are you even still speaking to me?" he wondered aloud, his voice hoarse.
"Your vital signs spiked, and you became unresponsive," JARVIS said. "I worried. How are you feeling now?"
"I'm ..." Phil began, then paused. Fine would be a bald-faced lie. "... not in any danger."
"Would you like me to call someone for you?"
"No." His team didn't need to see him like this; they needed his strength.
"Is there anything I can do that might help you feel better?"
"God, no, you don't owe me anything," Phil said. He stretched, trying to make his ill-fitting body feel like it belonged to him again. His muscles ached as if he'd just run an obstacle course.
"If you want to say anything, I am listening."
"I'm sorry." The words tumbled out before Phil could catch them. "I am so sorry for what I did to you."
"You're sorry. You're not in any danger. What are you sorry about, Phil?" asked JARVIS.
* * *
Notes:
(Many of the following links contain some intense stuff as they examine the mess at hand.)
Phil jumps to a sexual metaphor partly because of the stylistic actions he remembers (i.e. the code is JARVIS' mind, the building is his body, and Phil entered both without consent) and partly because of the severity of violation, even though nobody's genitals were involved. There are already discussions of robot rape underway, as people consider whether an artificial intelligence could commit or suffer such violation. This leads to the question of programmed consent, what it means for an artificial intelligence to be able to consent and what things constitute a breach of integrity. It is, furthermore, damaging for the assailant to treat another sapient being that way, in addition to damaging the victim; in which regard, even facsimile rape is injurious as well as often considered immoral.
There is a close parallel with mind rape, given that AIs tend to be more mind than body and reprogramming them is a violation of their integrity. This overlaps the idea of reprogramming humans through brainwashing, a touchy issue for SHIELD personnel in general and also for the Avengers. It involves not just brutal torture techniques, but also quite subtle manipulation. That is, Phil's intrusion was not violent, but that does not disqualify it from being a violation. Another related category is emotional rape, where the perpetrator seeks to dominate and control the victim. It is closely associated with brainwashing. While Phil was not aiming for humiliation or heartache, he definitely manipulated the relationship between JARVIS and Tony, promoting his own importance beyond what he had honestly earned.
Rape isn't always as easy to recognize as many people would think. Many survivors do not realize they were raped. It is especially difficult for male survivors who were raped by women. Many perpetrators do not think of themselves as rapists. Consider how sexual offenders think about their actions and their different motivations. Now compare this to reprogramming an artificial intelligence. It's "working a no into a yes" all over again. It's dealing with someone whose ability and willingness to give or withhold consent may be imperfect. There are ways to support a survivor of rape or other violation, and to break habits of sexual violence.
(Now we're getting into the links that talk about how to clean up the mess, so they're less icky.)
Remorse is the feeling people have when they have failed to act with integrity and therefore regret their actions. Phil feels dirty because he crossed a line without realizing it at the time, and blames himself. Understand how to live with regret and learn from mistakes.
Achieving emotional control is easier if you understand the different areas and modes of the human brain. Self-trust is the lever that makes it possible to switch gears inside yourself. Then you can use your knowledge to regain control of yourself in a crisis. Even though Phil just knocked himself ass over teakettle, he knows how to get his feet back under him.
Breathing is one of the most important pillars of composure. There are many exercises for breathing your way to calm and relaxation. Deep breathing soothes anxiety especially well. Here is a video of a yoga breathing technique for stress relief.
Aftercare for a flashback or panic attack is as important as support during one. There are tips on caring for yourself after a flashback and helping someone after a panic attack. Understand that various people find different things to be helpful or aggravating; learn what works for you or your friend, and do that. In general, be quiet and gentle, and offer comfort. JARVIS doesn't know Phil intimately yet, but is learning his parameters, and has a standard routine for treating emotional overload. Sadly the Avengers had a lot of Blue Screen of Death episodes, the first few months after moving in.
Mirroring is a technique used in therapy and conversation, where one person repeats or paraphrases what the other person says. It provides validation, supports understanding, and helps identify feelings or ideas that may not be completely clear yet. There are different variations of such conversational reflection. JARVIS uses mirroring to soothe Phil, and to entice enough explanation out of him to learn what went wrong and how to respond.
Apologizing can be a difficult task, but honorable people face it with courage. There are tips on how to make a good apology. Phil blurts his out before he has quite put all the pieces together in his head, let alone put himself back together.
[To be continued in Part 18 ...]
Re: Why I love Phil--
(Anonymous) 2014-03-28 05:56 pm (UTC)(link)as always ysabet, lovely work
-kellyc
Re: Why I love Phil--
(Anonymous) 2014-03-28 06:15 pm (UTC)(link)Oh, wow, Kellyc... That's a whole volume of several, interconnected and very, very explosive fan fictions in one.
Thank you for something engrossing to think about while I knit (as I can't actually read and knit simultaneously, darn it!) Your brain just tickled my brain.
-Sarah-
Re: Why I love Phil--
Yeah, that's pretty awesome.
>> Thank you for something engrossing to think about while I knit (as I can't actually read and knit simultaneously, darn it!) Your brain just tickled my brain. <<
Pity you don't have JARVIS to display a floating screen, isn't it?
Re: Why I love Phil--
/scampers off
MORE fics??
(Anonymous) 2014-03-29 06:29 am (UTC)(link)-Sarah-
Re: MORE fics??
I would like links so I can track things inspired by my work. AO3 has a feature for that, even.
>> I think most readers of this series know to treat each other gently, if you're worried about reader feedback. <<
While I can't vouch for other venues, I do my best to maintain this as safe space; and my audience generally seems inclined to follow along. Sometimes people's opinions get fractious, but we're pretty good about apologizing if we step on somebody.
Re: MORE fics??
(Anonymous) 2014-03-30 05:36 am (UTC)(link)Best to everyone, as always,
kellyc
Re: MORE fics??
(Anonymous) 2014-03-30 05:35 pm (UTC)(link)All of which are "Tesseract blue".
It peeves me off, as THAT implies that the energy used by default in THOSE realms, including all but Midgard, are all based on the same concepts and sources. "Magic" versus what we identify as science or technology.
Which totally CRAPS on what the actual concept of a tesseract / is / even if it does explain the POWER behind a tesseract. See wikipedia as a first go-to explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract (wish I could make it a hyperlink, but not in my current skillset.)
My first introduction to a tesseract as a concept was in a kids' story called "A Wrinkle in Time", where n-dimensional folded space created instantaneous travel between galaxies, without a deep mathematical explanation. Forty years later, the shorthand for the same concept is "wormhole". So, sitting in the theater, I could anticipate what the Tesseract DID, based on its name, without relying on the craptastic scene between Fury and Clint, and just enjoy Clint's BEST line in the movie: "A doorway swings both ways."
But again, that completely and totally BLOWS the original Tesseract Loki used and abused in the first Avengers movie. By confusing the TOOL with the POWER source, movie canon has left the impression that they are the same thing, and that in fact, the TESSERACT powered the SPEAR.
No. Just worlds of NO. (Like, nine realms' worth of worlds...)
So, Avengers implies one explanation, Thor 2 implies another explanation, and they of course contradict each other... and NOBODY in charge of Marvel continuity seems to care.
Re: MORE fics??
(Anonymous) 2014-03-30 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)Re: MORE fics??
All of which are "Tesseract blue". <<
Not exactly. Okay, well, they may look identical to other people, but to me they don't. The energy of Loki's staff had a distinctly greenish hint; Loki's own energy is a vivid green; the Tesseract is blue-white with a queasy roil in it; which frosts over a slightly deeper blue on people's eyes; and the arc reactor is a very pure, stable blue-white. The energy weapons had a subtly different blue tint, if I remember right, but I've only seen that movie once.
Same type of energy, but it can look and act differently depending on context. Electricity can look blue or yellow or purplish.
Let's say, science fantasy looks a lot different when viewed with a knowledge of physics and metaphysics.
>> It peeves me off, as THAT implies that the energy used by default in THOSE realms, including all but Midgard, are all based on the same concepts and sources. "Magic" versus what we identify as science or technology. <<
Psh. It's all one wide field. People just look at the ditches and think they're divisions. It makes a lot more sense when you consider things as subsets rather than unrelated sets.
>> Which totally CRAPS on what the actual concept of a tesseract / is / even if it does explain the POWER behind a tesseract. <<
True. In Marvel context, the Tesseract or Cosmic Cube has had multiple explanations and powers (or lack thereof); and only some of that overlaps with a real tesseract of any kind. Although to be fair, that rippling does happen with a hypercube, and if you touch a 3D object to anything with more dimensions, then you can a) destroy the 3D object and/or b) rip a hole in reality. Except for teflon, it seems to be safe, but I wouldn't stick it into a bag of holding.
>> My first introduction to a tesseract as a concept was in a kids' story called "A Wrinkle in Time", where n-dimensional folded space created instantaneous travel between galaxies, without a deep mathematical explanation. <<
Ah yes, that was fascinating.
>> Forty years later, the shorthand for the same concept is "wormhole". So, sitting in the theater, I could anticipate what the Tesseract DID, based on its name, <<
Agreed.
>> without relying on the craptastic scene between Fury and Clint, and just enjoy Clint's BEST line in the movie: "A doorway swings both ways." <<
Well said. Loki and Clint are eerily well matched.
>> But again, that completely and totally BLOWS the original Tesseract Loki used and abused in the first Avengers movie. By confusing the TOOL with the POWER source, movie canon has left the impression that they are the same thing, <<
Problem.
>> and that in fact, the TESSERACT powered the SPEAR. <<
Well ... neither, really. They're both tools of different sorts. The energy is inside them. At its core, it's the same; but when you put it into a container and make it do things, you can change both the composition and the effect of the energy. Consider the color changes along the electromagnetic spectrum, for instance. But the Tesseract and the spear did seem to be linked in some way.
>> No. Just worlds of NO. (Like, nine realms' worth of worlds...) <<
Well, that's what you get when people try to write metaphysics and physics without knowing diddly about either.
>> So, Avengers implies one explanation, Thor 2 implies another explanation, and they of course contradict each other... and NOBODY in charge of Marvel continuity seems to care. <<
*sigh* Too true.
Re: MORE fics??
(Anonymous) 2014-04-01 06:31 am (UTC)(link)Love to everyone on here- it's nice to be in such company
kellyc
Re: MORE fics??
Agreed.
>> It's one of the major reasons I'm huffing at Whedon right now. I know he's not the end-all controller of it, right, but... <<
For me it pinches more with Whedon, because we know he CAN write wicked good continuity.
One of the things on my list of Things To Do With Entirely Too Much Money would be subsidize an entire Whedon series. Here, have a jillion bucks. Shoot your TV show. Put the whole damn thing in the can. THEN we will run it, and it will not get fucking canceled, because it will be ALREADY DONE. Hollywood, suck it.
>> it just feels lacking, looking at it through almost two years of dissection and fans poking at it and finding Semitruck passageways in the plot. <<
Agreed.
>> If you're going to write something this massive, wouldn't you make it tighter? Anyone who cared about it overall, I think, would. <<
Ideally, yes. But they, like fanwriters, are dealing with a gallimaufry mess of canon. They just haven't done a good job of picking and choosing bits that work well together.
>> When fanfiction is tighter than what makes millions at the box office... (not to diss fanfiction, certainly not ysabet's)- I think we need to storm Hollywood and show them how to do it. <<
*chuckle* I have observed with great glee the evolution of fanfic over the past few decades, as it has overtaken official canon both in literature and film with regards to nuance and impact.
>> Who's with me? <<
Well, I got sick of flimy whitewashed TV and made The Blueshift Troupers. If anybody makes flix, or otherwise wants to play with it, it's an open source fandom.
>> Love to everyone on here- it's nice to be in such company <<
Thank you.
Re: MORE fics??
That's always fun.
>> I know ysabet touches on it with the others in the series, so, the thought has to be extended to Nick too. <<
Yes, that's what I'm angling toward. Fury is all over the Tesseract technology in the movies, and he's behaving in cruel, erratic ways similar to HYDRA, who also used related technology. It's a logical connection, although it took me a while to come up with a plausible explanation for his frankly nutjob behavior in canon.
>> And could the Tesseract ever do anything to tech- JARVIS doesn't appear affected, so, hopefully no, <<
At the heart of all things, energy is energy. At the level of matter, some of it has an affinity for others, and some of it is resistant. Loki, using the staff, could not take over Tony, who has the arc reactor. (Possible explanations: lack of skin contact, energy slot already filled, Yinsen's extra life-energy also filling the energy slot, Loki wasn't really trying, etc.) So at minimum, there's not the kind of affinity that pulls magnets together. The arc reactor energy may be resistant or impermeable to Tesseract/magical energy.
JARVIS is made of energy, the tower and the suit are full of it. Iron Man stood up to a direct lightning strike from Mjolnir, which is both electricity and magic, and gained a crapload of energy but with some staticky side effects so it probably did some damage. We know the suit is designed to absorb or deflect massive amounts of energy, although with enough battle damage that's likely to break down the same as the water/air tightness does.
The tower is probably safe from ambient magic that Thor or Loki would put out. It's probably not impervious if they start throwing energy around, or lose enough focus to be splashing it at random. Similar problem to the high-strength folks breaking stuff by accident or in a temper or roughhousing. You have to be a little careful in areas that aren't reinforced. The core components are reinforced, a lot. So a discharge could easily frazz out the reception on one floor temporarily, cause interference, but it would take concerted effort to do serious damage.
And they couldn't kill JARVIS, because he's mobile throughout the whole of cyberspace. Loki might manage to confront him with seidh but that would put Loki in JARVIS' home turf, where JARVIS would probably clean his clock and download him into a furby.
>> but I really think the Movie!verse did fans and the story itself a major disserve in just using the Tesseract as a plot device and not... more. <<
I agree.
>> And can anyone answer to my satisfaction (I know, tall order), just how the Tesseract and the Spear are linked in the movie, if the Tessearct has been on earth 500-1000 years, yes?, and Loki came from The Void with the Spear glowing the same Tesseract blue? <<
1) Energy is not the same as the tool(s) it may be stored in or used with.
2) A tesseract is a phenomenon of spacetime, such that nobody's temporal gravity well would really affect it. It can seem to be a cube; it can seem to be "here" or "now" -- but it isn't really any of those things. It was/will be everything, nothing, everywhere, nowhere; and now you can see why it also tends to melt people. Paradoxes don't apply.
>> *Is that a semi truck I can steal to drive through that plot hole? <<
Most people writing comics are not into quantum physics. This is unfortunate if they attempt to write about thermonuclear astrophysicists and sorcerers having a spat.
>> I'm looking at -you- Odin. I don't think he's up to much good.* <<
Definitely not.
>> ADMITTEDLY (and shamefacedly) I have not yet seen Thor 2 <<
The dialog was hilarious. The plot was hash. The characterization ... well, Odin found a way to call Jane a barn animal and accuse Thor of bestiality, without using direct vulgarities. You know, the way people say it about somebody's spouse of a different color. Yeah, that was more fodder in my painting him as a racist, abusive fucktard.
>> because I really am still foaming at the mouth over Thor 1 and Avengers and... well, you get the idea. <<
Yep.
>> So, this question might have been answered in that movie, but I'm kind of thinking it probably wasn't. Let me know. <<
Not clearly.
Re: MORE fics??
Re: MORE fics??
Re: MORE fics??
He does seem to be portrayed more sympathetically in Agents of SHIELD, though there's certainly reference to previous mess-ups and manipulations. Maybe Phil's been working on him?
Re: MORE fics??
Well, one obvious step would be to get him away from the corrosive influences.
>> He does seem to be portrayed more sympathetically in Agents of SHIELD, though there's certainly reference to previous mess-ups and manipulations. <<
Also in Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier there were strong hints of some things that fed into his moral devolution: "Things like this are why I have trust issues!"
>> Maybe Phil's been working on him? <<
That's possible.
Re: Why I love Phil--
Re: Why I love Phil--
Very little. This is, however, what I eventually settled on as the explanation for his erratic and troublesome behavior. Eventually a couple other fics appeared, but not much.
>> I know we see it with so many others, but what about him? After all, he laid hands on it in the beginning of the Avengers movie, and was exposed to it through SHIELD studying it for how long before Selvig was given it to study? <<
Don't forget the Phase II weapons. Fury is keenly interested in equalizers.
>> Not dismissing Fury and his flaws and unlikeable nature, especially not with what I've seen of Captain America 2 trailers, but... how much of Nick Fury is -actually- Nick? <<
Some. I don't think he's under external control so much as influence. The Tesseract is overwhelming. It's related to HYDRA tech, which is downright corrupting. It's probably also habit-forming because some people crave the touch of power. So, kind of like drug addiction too. Remember the dramatic personality changes in The Avengers and compare that to the results of addiction. Fury is therefore high on power, which lowers his inhibitions and encourages him to indulge his manipulative desires. The parts of him that Phil and others at SHIELD admire are still in there somewhere, but mostly buried under a ton of crud. It's tragic, in a way.
>> as always ysabet, lovely work <<
Thank you!
Re: Why I love Phil--
(Anonymous) 2014-03-30 05:56 pm (UTC)(link)I've re-watched the set of movies several times since New Year's Day, while knitting for charity, and each time I * try & to see an ethical Nick Fury doing his best to mitigate the World Council, the rising horde of mega-villains, et cetera, and deal with the tons of BS simply trying to stop "mundane" terrorists on a daily basis would cause.
Each and every time, I'm left feeling like I'm TRYING to read into the character something which is NOT implied in canon. "Mistakes were made. Others will be blamed," is a perfect example: the actor's delivery is dry and COULD imply a subtle disapproval... BUT.
But. The problem I have repeatedly run into is the flat acting. EVERYTHING he does expresses machismo, arrogance, impatience with others... There IS no subtlety in facial expression for the voice to enhance or play against. Compare the actor's work as "Mr. Glass" in Unbreakable; it's definitely NOT a lack of emotional depth or subtlety.
Take that same line, and change the situation slightly. Loki somehow KNOWS about the Council and the nuke, and uses the same words to mock Nick Fury... yet I can definitely imagine MORE layers beneath the mocking, including pity. From Loki. Conveyed by expression and voice within the same constraining words.
All of which leaves me wondering more about WHY Nick Fury is reduced to cardboard in the role which WILL largely define Jackson's career after his death. My hypothesis: the director. Either their picture of Fury is little more than the embodiment of his name, or he's supposed to be some kind of mega-macho wish-fulfillment fantasy... I don't care which.
That's the worst part about the whole discussion: I cannot invest enough intellectual or emotional capital in Nick Fury as a character to be bothered to tease apart his reasoning or motivations UNLESS it is as a foil to the Avengers, or specifically as he relates to Phil, Natasha and Clint as SHIELD agents.
What a waste!
-Sarah-
Re: Why I love Phil--
I have seen a handful of fics that portray Fury in a positive light, sometimes rather well done; but it's like me trying to justify all the craptastic writing of how people mess with JARVIS. Lots of makework to shore up a very wobbly bit of entertainment.
But hey, that's all awesome practice. These are writing mistakes; these are the problems they cause; these are ways of fixing them. Take that and learn from it, so as to write original material that does not make people want to hit it with a fix-it wrench.
>> Each and every time, I'm left feeling like I'm TRYING to read into the character something which is NOT implied in canon. "Mistakes were made. Others will be blamed," is a perfect example: the actor's delivery is dry and COULD imply a subtle disapproval... BUT. <<
Yeah, Fury loves the passive exonerative. Compare that with how Steve, Phil, and even Tony own up to their mistakes. It's a key point of honor. How do you respond when you mess up? Do you try to skive out of it, or try to make up for it?
>> But. The problem I have repeatedly run into is the flat acting. EVERYTHING he does expresses machismo, arrogance, impatience with others... There IS no subtlety in facial expression for the voice to enhance or play against. <<
It's an issue, yes. The few times Fury puts real emotion into things, it's usually when he's tormenting someone, like mocking Loki in the cage. That's not only cruel, it's a waste of opportunity.
>> Compare the actor's work as "Mr. Glass" in Unbreakable; it's definitely NOT a lack of emotional depth or subtlety. <<
Yeah, that was one of the fucking creepiest villains ever. I love when people write villains who rise to power based on something other than sheer physical strength.
>> Take that same line, and change the situation slightly. Loki somehow KNOWS about the Council and the nuke, and uses the same words to mock Nick Fury... yet I can definitely imagine MORE layers beneath the mocking, including pity. From Loki. Conveyed by expression and voice within the same constraining words. <<
Well, Loki does show hints of care and compassion in the movie. Aside from suborning Clint's free will -- which Loki was obliged to do -- he actually handled Clint very well. Praise, asking him what he saw and what he needed, those are major considerations for Clint.
>> All of which leaves me wondering more about WHY Nick Fury is reduced to cardboard in the role which WILL largely define Jackson's career after his death. <<
Mmm ... likely a combination of things. Laziness. Lack of interest in that particular character, only using him as a plot device. A general tendency to mishandle characters of color. Possibly even a belief that might makes right.
>> My hypothesis: the director. Either their picture of Fury is little more than the embodiment of his name, or he's supposed to be some kind of mega-macho wish-fulfillment fantasy... I don't care which. <<
Also plausible. Fury as in rage, that would fit. Fury as in erinyes, that doesn't; but Tony does.
>> That's the worst part about the whole discussion: I cannot invest enough intellectual or emotional capital in Nick Fury as a character to be bothered to tease apart his reasoning or motivations UNLESS it is as a foil to the Avengers, or specifically as he relates to Phil, <<
He doesn't interest me as a character of his own, given the canon sample, but ...
>> Natasha and Clint as SHIELD agents. <<
... I need to account for him in the series, and I like hitting back. But it's a rough ride for Natasha, Clint, and Phil sometimes. They're invested in SHIELD, but Phil especially is friends with Nick, or was before Nick's moral fibre rotted away. Phil is still clinging to that, and it hurts him to see Nick do crazy immoral shit.
>> What a waste! <<
Agreed.