Poem: "A Desire to Be Deeply Known"

[ysabetwordsmith]

This poem is spillover from the August 3, 2021 Poetry Fishbowl. It was inspired by prompts from dialecticdreamer, fuzzyred, janetmiles, and rix_scaedu. It also fills the "prolonged eye contact" square in my 8-2-21 card for the August Intimacies Bingo fest. This poem has been sponsored by a pool with fuzzyred, ng_moonmoth, janetmiles, and edorfaus. It belongs to the Mercedes thread of the Polychrome Heroics series.

Note: What's an asexual word for smut? Let's call it smat. SMAT SMAT SMAT. 1902 lines of WALL-TO-WALL SMAT. If you are anywhere on the asexual/demisexual spectrum, and you like emotional intimacy, this may get you all wound up.


"A Desire to Be Deeply Known"

[Friday, August 26, 2016]

As Pips walked up to Bennett's house --
which had been Madelyn's house before
the Big One hit -- he noticed that most of
the grass was brown, rather than green
like the neighboring lawns were.

Bennett wasn't one to waste water
on grass, though the yard wasn't
entirely xeriscaped either. There
was an ugly stump by the driveway,
where an old tree damaged during
the faint shiver of earthquake had
been cut down and removed.

People had been busy with
other stuff than yards lately.

Now, life was just starting
to settle down enough that they
could think of more personal things.

Pips had talked with Joshua and
rapidly reached the conclusion that
he didn't know what the merry hell he
was doing, and it might be more prudent
to ask someone wiser than just try
to muddle through with Joshua.

So Pips turned to Bennett,
because Bennett knew more
about odd relationship dynamics,
and also because Bennett and
Joshua were coparents, which
meant Pips had things he needed
to work out with Bennett as well.

The entrance was heavily protected
in a niche between the garage and
the kitchen end of the house.

Inside, the great room was light
and airy. Bennett sat on the couch.

"Come on in," he said. "Jules
and Blainn went to hang out with
Mariset and Griffin, so we've got
the house to ourselves for hours."

"Yeah," Pips said as he took
the opposite end of the couch.
"That's probably a good thing."

"You said that you needed
to talk?" Bennett invited.

"I'm getting serious with
Joshua," said Pips. "I tried
talking about it with him,
but it kind of ... floundered."

"That sucks," said Bennett.
"You made an honest effort,
though, and that matters."

"Yeah, but his experience
with relationships is limited,
and mostly not very good,"
said Pips. "It's hard for me
to explain my orientation, what
it means over the long term ...
when I hardly know that myself."

"Relationships can get complicated,"
Bennett said. "You'll figure it out."

"You have so much more faith
in me than I do," Pips said roughly.
"I don't know how to deal with this."

"Want some help?" Bennett offered.
"I've learned a lot about different kinds
of relationships, from massage and
kink and helping Jules explore his.
I have my own horrible past, too."

"I'd like your help," Pips said, licking
his lips nervously. "I'd also like
to talk about our relationship."

"Oh?" Bennett said, his voice
lilting upward with his eyebrows.

They had played together
a few times, because they
liked a lot of the same things,
but it hadn't been more than
friends having a bit of fun. Yet.

Pips took a deep breath.
"You and Joshua already have
a close, long-standing relationship,"
he said. "It's not sexual, or even
really romantic, but it's deep."

"That is true," Bennett agreed.

"So if I'm going to get involved
with him, on a serious basis, then
I need to work out my relationship
with you too, as more than just
a quick fling," Pips concluded.

"Well reasoned," Bennett said,
his voice warm with approval. "I
didn't want to push, but if you hadn't
brought it up within a few months,
I would have done so myself.
More people inevitably make
for more complex dynamics."

"I know," Pips said. It reminded
him painfully of home, clan-home,
where every relationship was just
one thread in a figurative knotwork.
"I want to get this right. Somehow."

"Well, turn and face me," Bennett said.
"Intimate conversations go better
when they have good eye contact."

Obediently Pips shuffled around
to sit cross-legged and face him.

Pips could see Bennett just fine,
but Bennett would have to take
his word on the eye contact,
since Pips kept his glasses on.

"That's better," said Bennett.
"Now, I can walk you through
the process of mapping out
a nonstandard relationship
if that's what you want to do."

Pips felt his stomach flip over.
"I want to," he said, "but I'm
kind of terrified too. Falling
for Joshua has just turned
my whole life upside down."

"Most people are slow
to champion love because
they fear the transformation it
brings into their lives -- and make
no mistake about it: love does
take over and transform our egos
in a very mighty way," said Bennett.

"Yeah," Pips said, squirming a little.
"I've never felt anything like this.
It's more than a bit overwhelming.
It's not just Joshua, it's everyone
along with him, the kids, you."

"Do you regret it, then?"
Bennett asked him.

"No, I don't. There are
no accidental meetings
between souls," Pips said.

"Love is risky," Bennett said.
"It's no wonder that some people
are afraid of it because of that."

Pips shook his head. "Love
is like breathing. You take
it in and let it out," he said.
"It's intimacy that scares me."

He was familiar with love,
in the sense of family, but not
this incredible interpenetration.

"Well, that's understandable,"
Bennett said. "Intimacy is
a totally different dimension.
It is allowing another person
to come into you and to see
you as you see yourself."

"Yeah," Pips said, trembling
a little. "I want that. I'm just
not sure how to get from here
to there, with you, or with Joshua,
other than what we've already done.
And unlike you, Joshua isn't into
sexy funtimes with another guy."

"Intimacy is often confused with sex,
but in actuality it involves feeling
a very deep emotional connection
with another person and a desire
to be deeply known," Bennett said.

"I get that," Pips said. "Some of
what we've done was pretty deep."

Some of it had been for fun, and
some out of awkward necessity.

They were still working their way
through that, too, but Pips thought
they were okay despite the stresses
that the earthquake had thrown on them.

"Intimacy is not something achieved quickly,
but something that continues to mature
and develop over time, like a garden or
fine wine," Bennett said. "Be patient."

"I'm trying," Pips said. "I don't want
to rush it, I just ... I want things,
that I don't even understand all of."

"Although intimacy is something
many of us long for, not all of us find
or experience it in our relationships,"
said Bennett. "It takes luck, and work."

"Yeah," said Pips. "Meeting Joshua
was the luckiest day of my life, and
it's been worth every bit of effort. It's
just sometimes ..." He squirmed against
the soft cushions of the couch. "... intense."

"That is because intimacy involves being
vulnerable -- taking emotional risks and
working through the deep fear of allowing
another person to see you as you truly are,"
said Bennett. "Nobody finds that easy."

"No shit," Pips whispered, shivering.

"It involves trust, caring, acceptance,
safety, and connection," Bennett went on.
"To nurture intimacy is to be willing to show
all sides of yourself, to embrace differences,
to grow from conflict, and most of all to choose
your partners -- the individuals you share
your heart with -- as wisely as possible."

Pips thought about that. Bennett had
gotten banged up a bit in the earthquake,
because he'd been closer to the coast
at the time. That had led to an argument
about how much help he really needed
from Pips, which was damn awkward.

They'd gotten through it, though,
and maybe come out stronger.
After all that, Pips couldn't really
begrudge a closer look at himself.

Hopefully doing this with Bennett
would make it easier with Joshua later.

"Okay," Pips said. "I'll do my best.
So where do we go with this?"

"Real intimacy is only possible
to the degree that we can be
honest about what we are doing
and feeling," Bennett said. "So
we're going to talk about things.
I have some tools that may help."

"All right," Pips said. "Hit me."

Bennett shook his head. "Intimacy
is not about who you let touch you,
whether for sex or kink," he said firmly.
"You can do either of those on a whim.
Intimacy is about who you text at 3 A.M.
with your dreams and your fears."

Instantly Pips thought about
his agemates, the pile of siblings
and cousins he'd grown up with.

Some of them he hadn't seen
in years, a few he still kept in
closer contact with, some
wouldn't even speak to him.

But every one of them would
have his back in an instant if he
was being chased by a pack of giants.

"Now, consider what intimacy means
to you, and tell me that," Bennett said.

Pips had to stop and think about it,
wanting to give his best answer.

"Intimacy is giving someone all of
your attention when ten other people
are asking for it," he said. "Intimacy is
the person always in the back of your mind,
no matter how distracted you might get."

Another shiver rippled its way down
his spine. The prolonged eye contact
was definitely getting to him.

"Well done," said Bennett.
"We are going to discuss
stages of conversation
and nested boundaries
increasing in intimacy, so
it's important to start with
a clear idea what intimacy
means to you personally."

"Okay ... I'm not sure that I
get all that, though," said Pips.

"You and I have enjoyed a variety of
physical activities, sexual and otherwise,
but you and Joshua have done different things,"
said Bennett. "If a relationship is not based
on sex or romance, then what is as intimate
and important in that relationship as sex
and romance in a conventional one?"

Pips felt his jaw dropping. "I ...
have no idea," he admitted.

"That's why we're going
to talk about it," Bennett said.
"When you meet new people,
your conversations start out at
the shallow end, with no risk."

"I guess, yeah," said Pips.
"You don't know each other."

"Most people prefer to begin
with small talk," said Bennett.
"They use clichés and facts
to get the ball rolling."

"So maybe it's not a total
waste of time," Pips mused.

"Some people hate small talk,"
Bennett acknowledged. "They
may prefer to open with hobbies
or other topics of interest that are
still relatively safe and neutral."

"That's much better," Pips said. "I
can fritter around if I have to, but uh ...
mostly I do that when I'm working."

The whole supervillainy thing was
a topic more delicately danced around
than addressed directly between them.

Pips really hoped that Bennett wasn't
planning to drag that out tonight.

"That's fine. What matters is that
you know your taste," Bennett said.
"Opinions come as people start
getting to know each other, and
they'll break off to avoid trouble
if they don't seem compatible."

Pips chuckled. "One-month-punch,"
he said, rubbing his earlobe. "I've
had some bosses who just weren't
worth any more of my time than that."

He had found a few others that he
would have given his life for,
but that was another story.

"After that come hopes and
dreams," said Bennett. "These
are positive things, but people
tend to be shy about them."

"Because some people will
tease you," Pips said instantly.

"That's true." Bennett nodded.
"This is why intimacy is also
about trust. You have to believe
that your friends and family won't
use that information against you."

Pips sighed. "Family is ... kind of
a complicated topic for me. Some
of it is hard to talk about, and
some I simply can't talk about."

"So, that's something you
consider intimate," Bennett said.
"Good. That's what we're here
to find out, your points of intimacy."

"Does that mean I have to talk
about my family?" Pips said,
trying not to writhe in misery.

He was pretty sure that
Bennett could tell anyway.

"You don't have to do anything,"
Bennett assured him. "Everything
you do is entirely your choice."

Well, maybe Pips could talk around
it a bit. There were some things
Bennett deserved to know, so he
wouldn't get blindsided by them.

Pips nibbled on his lip, tasting blood.

Instantly Bennett reached out and
tugged his lip away from his teeth.
"None of that, please," he said gently.
"If you need something to chew on,
let me know and I'll go find it."

"Sorry, bad habit," Pips said.
"It's just ... my people are
very private, even insular,
most of them. Walden's
are somewhat more open."

"I think I've heard a little
of that," Bennett said.

He'd been at the Finn party
when Pips had embarrassed
himself pretty spectacularly,
but Pips hadn't known that
Walden was a Pict until then.

"Why don't we revisit this after
the other levels?" Bennett said.

"That makes sense," said Pips.
"Maybe we can see where it fits."

"After hopes come feelings, because
many people aren't great at talking
about those," said Bennett. "However,
it's all about what's intimate for you,
so the exact order may vary a bit."

"But it always moves from
less intimate to more intimate
topics, right?" Pips asked him.

"That's the idea," said Bennett.
"Next come fears, flaws, and
failures -- the flip side of hopes
and dreams. Nobody really
feels comfortable with those."

"Ow, yeah," said Pips. He'd
been such an oddball, and
such a disappointment,
to some of his family.

Talking about that would
be like peeling his own skin off.

"Finally, needs," said Bennett.
"Everyone has them, but not
everyone knows what all of
theirs are. It's vitally important
to a healthy relationship, though.
You have to know yourself and
be able to articulate your needs,
not ignore them or try to meet
them through subterfuge."

Pips was so, so far in
over his head with this
that he couldn't see shore.

He wasn't about to give up,
though. If Bennett said this
was necessary, well, it was
time to find that peeler.

"Now, a good relationship
starts at the shallow end and
works its way deeper slowly,"
said Bennett. "Going too far,
too fast, is uncomfortable at
best and dangerous at worst."

"Dangerous?" Pips said. "You
mean, other than somebody
trying to take advantage?"

"Yes," said Bennett. "If you
overreach your boundaries,
you can rupture yourself in
ways that are agonizing
and very difficult to fix."

Well, that was terrifying.

Pips pressed himself firmly
into the cushions, resisting
the temptation to flee. "Yikes."

"Mmm, remember when I hurt
my hands and needed your help
with some embarrassingly personal
services?" Bennett said. "It's not
that those things were bad or wrong,
just beyond what we were ready for."

Pips remembered how much that
unwanted intimacy had bothered
both of them. He hadn't thought
about it quite like this before.

"You mean, it was upsetting
because it was too early, not
the issue itself?" he said.
"You wouldn't have felt
the same about Joshua?"

"Exactly," said Bennett. "He
and I have known each other
for years; we've already gone
through pretty difficult stuff."

Pips wondered if any of that
was stuff he needed to know,
or even needed to .... handle.

That might be jumping the gun a bit.

"Anyway, the most important part is
that, while you and I weren't ready for
what happened, we were close enough
to deal with it without doing damage
to our relationship," said Bennett.
"You were able to talk me through
the frustration and embarrassment
so that I could accept your help."

What Pips had really done
was point out that if Bennett
didn't accept the help, then it
would set a terrible example
for Jules, who was even less
prepared for the challenges.

It had worked out, more or less.
At least nobody got hurt worse
because of turning down help.

"I'm glad that I could be there
for you," Pips said quietly.

"So am I," said Bennett.
"Joshua got us out of
a messy situation, but
you were the one ready
with a safe place for us to go."

"You're family," Pips whispered.
"I realized that then, when I
couldn't stand to lose Joshua,
or the kids, or any of you."

"So with that in mind, where do
things fall on your intimacy scale
for conversations?" said Bennett.

"Small talk is boring," said Pips. "I
like facts, and I'm actually comfortable
with opinions. I'll talk about books
or movies I like, places I've seen.
Work is ... more complicated,
obviously, than for most folks."

"Obviously," Bennett said with
a chuckle. "But you know, I've had
much better luck with supervillains
than with cops, so it may vary
how sticky that issue really is."

Bennett's horrible ex had been
a cop, and near enough ruined
not only his life but Jules' too.

It was a good thing that she
was in jail, or Pips would be
even more tempted than he
already was to hunt her down
and demonstrate a few bits
of forgotten Pictish history.

"Fair enough," Pips said.
"I don't mind talking about
hopes and dreams, I guess,
because until recently I didn't
have much specific there. I'm
okay with a lot of feelings, too."

"That puts you ahead of the game,
then," said Bennett. "You're lucky.
What about fears and flaws?"

Pips flinched. "A lot harder,"
he said. "Some people
have ... it's been difficult."

"Okay," Bennett said. "You
don't have to tell me more than
you're comfortable with. How
do you feel about your needs?
Safety needs, personal ones?"

"I have to talk about those,
at least some of them," Pips said.
He tapped the corner of his glasses.
"Some things can't be hidden, and
others can't be hidden safely."

"I have safety needs too, things
that people need to know about me
if we're going to spend much time
together," Bennett said, tracing
the leather band that he always
wore around his wrist. "I think
most of the people I know do."

"So for us, that's not as intimate
as some other things," Pips said.

"Then where would you put
family matters on that scale?"
Bennett said. "At the deep end?"

"Yeah, a lot of it," Pips said.
"So much of it really isn't mine
to tell. A few things are more
in the need-to-know category.
My friends at least need to be
aware that it's sensitive for me."

"That's fair," said Bennett. "I'll
try not to step on those things."

Pips sighed. "That puts you
ahead of most people," he said.
"There are things that I can't do --
won't do -- because of the paperwork.
It's so intrusive, it's like people are
demanding sexual favors before
they even might deign to help me."

"Wow, that really sucks." Bennett
looked completely horrified by it.

"Yeah," Pips said. "There's
no cultural accommodation, and
I can't even ask for it, because it's
safer if nobody knows we still exist."

"Then I'm deeply grateful that you
trusted me with this," said Bennett.

"Some risks are worth taking,"
Pips said with a soft smile.

"You could always fib a bit,"
said Bennett. "There are
fake papers. I never could
afford any when I needed to,
but you probably could."

"I have, sometimes,"
Pips said. "I just hate
lying. I'd rather do without."

"So, anything I need to know
about the touchy topic?"
Bennett asked him.

"Some of my family,
I'm still really close with,
but others ... I just wasn't
what they wanted," Pips said.
"That still hurts, and sometimes
I freak out for no good reason."

"I think that family history is
a very good reason to freak out,"
Bennett said firmly. "No shame in it."

"Thanks," Pips said. "Another thing is,
I'm baffled personally by trying to get
a handle on my feelings right now,
with settling down. But I have, um,
cultural references for some of this."

"Okay," Bennett said. "That helps.
What kind of references do you mean?"

"My people don't always marry," said Pips.
"When we do, it can take different forms.
Sibling marriages are considered lucky,
especially two sisters marrying two brothers."

"I've heard of cultures thinking that way,"
said Bennett. "How does that affect us?"

Pips blushed a little. "Because it's not
always two-by-two," he said. "Sometimes
it's a man marrying two sisters, or a woman
marrying two brothers. So I always knew if
I fell in love with one person, I might also
need to build a relationship with their sibling."

"Is that what brought you here to talk
with me today?" Bennett wondered.

"Yeah, part of it," Pips said. "I was
thinking of other stuff, too, but that's
some of what inspired me to come over.
When you're starting to get serious, if
your sweetie has another half, then it's
your responsibility to reach out and say hi."

"That's interesting," said Bennett. "Nobody
minds the same-sex aspects back home?"

"Not nearly as much as they mind someone
taking up with a giant," Pips muttered.

"Ah well, no society is without its share
of prejudices," Bennett observed.

"It's not exactly prejudice, we know
people of different heights. It's not
unfounded, the height is -- I can't talk
about that," Pips said, shaking his head.
"Anyway, people actually mind it less
when it's a homosexual relationship,
because then it's not a ... threat
to the continuity of the clan."

"All right," Bennett said. "I only
need to know what will help
you feel more comfortable."

"I'm working on it," Pips said.
"Some of this will just take time."

"That's the nature of relationships,"
Bennett said. "Speaking of family,
have I ever said thank you?"

"For what?" Pips said, blinking.
"I haven't done all that much."

"This goes back a bit," said Bennett.
"I wanted to thank you for taking care
of Jules, around the time we first met."

"Ah," Pips said. "Well. He showed up
on BlackSheep with a username that
was ... concerning ... to everyone."

"I heard about that," said Bennett.
"I really appreciate you stepping in."

"Actually, he rather came to my rescue,"
Pips said. "I'd been admiring Joshua
from afar, wasn't sure he'd be interested
in a supervillain, you know? It was Jules
who urged me to make an approach."

"That's very sweet," said Bennett. "I think
that you and Joshua make a great match."

"Yeah," Pips said softly. "We really do.
It's just ... hard getting used to. Walden
has an easier time with stuff like this."

"Oh?" said Bennett. "I didn't know
that she'd gotten together with anyone."

"Not that I know of," Pips said. "I meant
talking about family. Her people are
a lot more open than mine are."

"I've heard a little about that,"
Bennett said. "Different groups?"

"Different clans, yeah," said Pips.
He took a deep breath. "I'm Caerini,
and Walden is Selgovae. We're
about as different as it gets."

"That sounds interesting,"
Bennett said. "I'm listening."

"The Caerini are way up north,
and the Selgovae are down south,
just past Hadrian's Wall," said Pips.
"So we're more isolated, while they're
more gregarious. Walden talks about
her family with friends, and she speaks
Pictish in front of people who aren't."

"I remember," said Bennett. "It's
okay to be different, as long as
you can still get along together."

Pips blushed again. He was
still considering Walden as
a potential breeding partner.

"Yeah, we get along," Pips said.
"What about you? Any points
of conversational intimacy or
vulnerability I should know about?"

"This," Bennett said, touching
the leather band at his wrist.
"I can't -- I don't let people see
the skin under here, and it's hard
to talk about. After she tried to get
at Jules, I just -- it's all really raw."

"So that's a boundary, for now,"
said Pips. "I'm smooth with that."

"As your family is for you, and
I'm smooth with that," said Bennett.

"Okay, where does that leave us on
the spectrum of conversational intimacy?"
Pips asked. "Some of our stuff seems
to fall in a different order than usual."

"I think we're toward the deep end, but
not all the way there yet," said Bennett.

"I hope we can make progress, but I'm
not ready to push farther at this time,"
Pips said. "I already have my hands full."

"We have plenty to keep us occupied,"
said Bennett. "My great hope is to laugh
as much as I cry; to get my work done
and try to love people around me and
have the courage to accept their love in
return. My great fear is being left alone."

"Yeah. That's familiar," Pips said.
"I grew up in a clan, like -- like
a huge extended family. But I
don't fit well with most of my family,
and that's a heartbreaking loneliness."

"You fit with our family," Bennett said.
"You have from the very beginning."

"I hope so," Pips said. "I want to.

"You're here working on it right now,"
Bennett said. "That's what matters. It's
not how great your relationship skills are,
it's how willing you are to work on them.
Everyone has to try, or it doesn't work out."

"The effort will be equal to the extent that
the feelings are mutual," Pips said. "If
someone doesn't want to invest in
a relationship, you know that they
aren't really as serious about it."

"That's a good observation,"
Bennett said. "I think that this is
one place where it actually helps,
me and Joshua both coming from
bad relationships. We both felt
very determined to pull our weight
in this one, to make it equal."

"I'm on board with that," Pips said.
"So, do you have any ideas for
deepening conversations that
won't risk rupturing anything?"

Bennett tapped something on
his tablet computer. "Here
are some lists of small talk,
deeper conversation topics,
and ones for making friends."

"Some of these look promising,"
Pips said as he browsed them. He
copied the websites to his smartphone,
then passed the tablet back to Bennett.

"And then there's this," Bennett said with
a smirk. He opened the storage ottoman,
nudged aside a bag that held kink toys,
and plucked a book from the stack.

"Intellectual Foreplay?" Pips read,
baffled. "You keep this book in
your smut stack? I don't get it."

Bennett's smirk broadened.
"Focus on what I'm thinking and
feeling right now. Your orientation
should respond to that. Then open
the book and see how you feel."

Pips had explained to Bennett
that the sex-and-romance parts of
his orientation tended to respond
to his partner instead of staying put.

"Okay," Pips said. He paid attention
to Bennett for a moment, then leafed
through the book, reading a few of
the questions ... then a few more ...

He could feel his cheeks heating.
"Yeah, okay. You win. Some of this
is squirmy, and some is really hot."

"That's how it should feel," Bennett said.
"Watch for the divisions between what
feels fun, or exciting, or uncomfortable."

Pips shifted in place. "What about all three?"

"Oh, especially pay attention to those,"
Bennett said. "Those tend to be
the areas most in flux for you."

"I'm not sure whether I feel like I'm
going to melt, or explode," Pips said.
"Everything now is just so different
than it used to be, half of the time
I don't even know what I feel."

"That's actually normal," Bennett said.
"It's just that most people tend to hit it
sometime during puberty. Hitting it
again at the age when you start
to settle isn't particularly rare, either."

Pips rubbed his hands over his arms,
trying to soothe the goosebumps.
All the prolonged eye contact
was making him feel naked.

"You can look away if you need to,"
Bennett said. "Just remember that
intimacy is about truth. When you
realize you can tell someone your truth,
when you can show yourself to them,
when you stand in front of them and
their response is 'You’re safe with me,'
then that’s what intimacy really is. So
ask yourself whether you feel safe."

"Yes," Pips whispered. "I always
feel safe with you, even if the topic
at hand is pushing my limits. I let you
take liberties that most people don't
get, and I enjoy every minute. You?"

"I literally love affection," Bennett said.
"It’s not about sex. I crave somebody
to cuddle with me and to lay their head
on my lap. I crave kisses, holding hands
and running my thumb across theirs.
Just looking at someone and thinking
'How did I get this lucky?' to myself."

Pips couldn't resist. Bennett was
so tactile, and everything that
he did tended to feel so good.

So Pips kicked off his shoes and
plopped his feet in Bennett's lap.

Bennett wrapped his hands around
Pips' feet, not applying much pressure,
just stroking gently from end to end.

Pips groaned in pleasure anyway.
Those hands, Goddess bless!

Bennett chuckled. "Try not
to lose yourself in it, unless
you're already done with
this conversation," he said.

With an effort, Pips gathered
his scattering wits. "Not yet."

"Okay, this seems like a good time
to bring up body trust," said Bennett.
He picked up his tablet, tapped on it,
and showed Pips an image. "This is
a typical touch map of where people are
willing to be touched by various folks."

It had entries for a man and a woman
being touched by their partner, by friends,
by aunts and uncles, then acquaintances, and
last by strangers. The differences were striking.

Pips found it odd that people seemed to be
so standoffish with aunts and uncles, though.
Some of his were basically extra parents.

"You're frowning," Bennett said. "Does
something not make sense, or do you
hate the whole idea of touch maps?"

"I'm trying to figure out the relationships,"
Pips said. "I think mine are pretty different."

"Let me have that back for a minute, and
we'll move on to something that might
make this clearer," said Bennett.

Pips passed him the tablet.

Bennett called up a new resource.
"This is a touch meme," he said,
offering the tablet to Pips. "You fill in
an outline based on where you personally
would feel comfortable being touched by
a given type of person. You can make
as many categories as you feel you need."

Pips took the tablet. Now it had body shapes
with a color code, which was customizable.
There were suggested categories for strangers,
best friends, immediate family, and partner.

Pips filled in that set, and then hesitated.
He really, really wanted to do more,
to map out what he remembered
from his family and his clan.

But Bennett was right there.

"Maybe I should just do this
on my phone," Pips muttered.

"That would be awfully small,"
Bennett said. "Do you want me
to leave? Or just turn away?"

"Maybe turn sideways,"
Pips said, "for a little while."

"Sure, no problem," Bennett said,
politely shifting position on the couch.

Pips mapped his mother-and-mother's-sisters,
father-and-father's-brothers, mother's brothers
and father's sisters, siblings-and-sibling-cousins,
clan-cousins, and more. For most of those, he
had to distinguish between those he was
still close with and those he was not.

Then he made another set of outlines
and mapped his current family, friends,
professionals, and giants in general.

There was a lot of variation across
the different outlines in the sets.

Only when Pips looked up and
had to stretch a cramp out of
his neck did he realized that he
must have been at it quite a while.

"Sorry," he muttered. "I really didn't
mean to leave you hanging like that."

"It's okay," Bennett assured him.
"If you needed to take that much time,
then you must have found it very useful."

"Yeah, I really did," Pips admitted. "I
haven't thought about these relationships
in this much detail for a long time. I guess
I needed to pay attention to that stuff."

Looking at the maps, he realized abruptly
that he trusted both Bennett and Joshua
more than some of his own people.

That was so deeply wrong that
the awareness made him shudder.
He couldn't deny it, though: it was true.

Pips felt his worldview try to slide off
and crawl under the couch to hide.

"Are you okay?" Bennett said.
He sounded pretty worried.

"I'm ... I don't know," Pips said.
"I just realized some things that
made me extremely uncomfortable."

"Have I done anything wrong?"
Bennett said at once. "I can stop."

Pips shook his head. "It's not you,
not really," he said. "It's about me,
and my mess of a family back home,
and my family here, and how I feel
about all that. Which is also a mess."

"Well, that's feelings for you,"
Bennett said sympathetically.
"They'll run you over like
a litter of muddy puppies,
leaving you wondering
what the hell happened."

Pips huffed a laugh. "Yeah.
That's about how I feel."

"Do you want to talk about
your body trust and boundaries,
or should we get off the thin ice
before it breaks?" Bennett said.

"I don't know ... maybe try talking
and see what happens?" Pips said.

"Think about babies," said Bennett.
"They start out with no touch boundaries
because they need total care. During
childhood, boundaries emerge slowly,
the most protected appearing first and
progressing outward to the more casual."

"That sounds right," Pips said, looking
at his maps. He could recall bits of it.

"During courtship, the boundaries drop
in reverse order, first the most casual and
last the most intimate," Bennett went on.

"What about relationships that are
intimate but not sexual?" said Pips.
"That's part of what threw me here.
Joshua and I aren't sexual -- he wore
swimshorts the time he helped wash me --
but there isn't much that I'd deny him.
And you're not very far behind."

Bennett regarded Pips with
a melting-chocolate smile,
dark and warm and sweet.

"Well, that's flattering,"
Bennett said. "As you're
discovering, the people in
less-common configurations
have to work out their own ways.
We're trying to figure out what
our intimacy ranges are, not
counting sex or romance."

Pips tried to sort all of that
in his head, but it was like
trying to juggle frogs,
all wet and wriggly.

"Emphasis on trying,"
he said with a sigh.

"Also, boundaries can be
damaged or even destroyed
through various types of abuse,
lengthy medical intervention,
military training, and so forth.
Fresh ones can be built through
counseling or the like," said Bennett.

"Yeah, I have seen that happen,"
Pips said. "Some of it's okay,
but other stuff is pretty fraught."

"So you see, a person's boundaries
in general or about certain individuals or
groups in particular may change over time,"
Bennett said. "Nothing's carved in stone."

That made Pips think of the ancient markers
which guarded his tribe's boundaries with
swirling artwork and ancient inscriptions.

"What about other things besides bodies?"
he wondered. "Would it work for territory?"

"Oh yeah," Bennett said. "If I can have
that tablet back, I'll show you how.
I've got a different app for that."

Pips couldn't help hugging the thing
against his chest. "Um ..." he said.

"Do you want to take that tablet
with you tonight?" Bennett asked.

"You really wouldn't mind?" Pips said.

"No problem, it's a living room tablet,"
said Bennett. "You can borrow it."

"Thanks," said Pips. "Let me see if
I can port this stuff to my phone, though.
Then I can just move it to my tablet later."

It took him a few minutes to find all of
the functions that he needed to port
the files, because he really didn't
want to lose the hard work he'd done.

Then he had to erase the stuff from
Bennett's tablet so he could return it.

"Give me a minute to find what I need,"
Bennett said as he took it the tablet.
His fingers pattered over the screen.
"Okay, the idea with space is that it can
be public, semi-public, semi-private, or
private. People move through space
along that scale, from a street to a home,
and within the home through its rooms."

He showed Pips some images. "The street
is public. The front yard and porch are
semi-public. The side and back yards
are semi-private," Bennett said.

Looking at the illustration,
Pips said, "That makes sense.
I can see the progression."

"Inside the house, the kitchen,
dining room, and living room
are semi-private," Bennett said.
"The bedrooms are private."

"Huh," Pips said. He didn't
seem to have the same kind of
experience as whoever had
made the sample map.

He'd grown up rambling
around with his siblings and
cousins, sleeping in a pile
like a pack of puppies.

After that, he had lived in
supervillain lairs, hotels, and
wherever else he wandered.

Now he had a bedroom
at Joshua's house, but he
didn't mind people in it.

"I'm not quite sure this
fits me," Pips mused.

"That's fine," said Bennett.
"This is a common pattern of
territory, but not the only one
possible. Some folks might feel
less territorial about their bedroom
and more territorial about the kitchen."

Instantly Pips recalled the aunt
who threatened everyone with
a wooden spoon if they dared
to intrude on her kitchen. "Got it."

"If you use these controls, you can
make a quick outline of your home,"
Bennett said. "Mapping who may enter
which parts of your territory, whether
they require an invitation, and whether
it's a standing invitation or case-by-case,
is a great way to show levels of intimacy
in your space rather than on your body."

As Pips fiddled around with the app,
he realized something else. "I don't
think I actually have private space,"
he said. "It doesn't seem that important."

Bennett frowned. "Nothing you want
to protect?" he said. "That's ... not good."

"My really personal stuff is capable of
protecting itself," Pips said, shrugging.
His luggage was supervillain-made
and well equipped for self-defense.

"What about taking people to meet
your family?" Bennett tried next.

Pips sat back. "Oh. Yeah.
That's definitely a boundary."

The whole of the Pitesht
was private space to him.

"All right, I'm less concerned
about it now," said Bennett.
"Everyone needs boundaries,
but they don't have to go in
the exact same places. Do
keep an eye on yours, just
in case they change over time."

"Is that likely?" Pips said,
more than a bit appalled at
the idea of something else
changing underneath him.

"Given what you've said about
your past, if you spend enough time
in a very different situation, then
you may develop new feelings on
personal space," said Bennett.
"I don't think you need to worry
about it happening soon, though."

"Good," said Pips, "because I
have my hands full already."

"That's fine," said Bennett.
"Even society can change,
sometimes. Look at the way
teleporters have come up with
their own privacy customs."

"Yeah, they're almost like
a tribe, they have a culture
of their own," Pips said. "So
by now, most people know that
teleporting into someone's home
is rude, unless you're very close
and you have an invitation to do it."

"It's pretty much the same as not
walking into someone's house or
their bedroom without an invitation,"
said Bennett. "All that The Teleport
really did was highlight how a boundary
related to superpowers. They only tend
to cross that line in case of emergency."

"I got that talk years ago, only about
my enhanced vision." Pips tapped
his eyeglasses. "I don't peek into
other people's lives or bodies
without a damn good reason."

"It's about establishing trust,"
said Bennett. "A healthy society
needs that as much as a relationship."

"I trust you," Pips said. "I trust you
more than I do some of the people
I grew up with. That's what threw me."

"Understandable," said Bennett. "If
you want to explore that further, I
have a more detailed body map
along with its supporting materials."

"Yeah, let's take a look," Pips said.
"The earlier ones were pretty basic."

Bennett used the tablet to call up
the Compassionate Boundaries set.
That included a preference flow chart,
a Yes-No-Maybe list of activities, and
a body map with a lot more details.

Pips looked at the color-coded map,
which indicated touch boundaries but
also words used for body parts, notes
to be aware of, and favorite activities.

"I can see how it would be useful
to make different ones for you
and Joshua," said Pips. "We do
a lot of different things. Our lists
would come out different too."

"And that's fine," said Bennett.
"It's normal for different relationships
to involve a diversity of activities."

Pips didn't want to take the time
to fill in all the details, but he did
sketch out some key differences in
how he felt with Bennett vs. Joshua.

He also jotted down a few notes on
the Yes-No-Maybe list so that he'd
have something to share with Bennett.

Power exchange, bondage, pain play,
and temperature play were all things
they'd done before. Blindfolds ... Pips
wasn't sure he was ready for that yet,
but he wanted to open the topic.

Using his phone to call up a list of
kinks for inspiration, he came across
chauffeuring and put that down. He
hadn't had much chance for it with
Bennett or Joshua, but he liked it.

Oh, erotic modeling, they hadn't
done that either -- that'd be fun.

There was also the Autostraddle set
of worksheets about sex and kink,
but also about talking together and
what you wanted to call things.

He'd had a lot of fun with those in
his teens, and just looking at them
brought back fond memories and
a few more things to add now.

Roleplaying, mmm, yeah, and
wild times on the phone or texting ...

Bennett leaned over just enough
to peek at the phone, then grinned.
"I love kink lists," he said, and
brought up a copy to play with.

When they traded their lists,
Pips noticed that Bennett liked
a lot of the nurturing kinks.

Well, that was cool, Pips liked
those as much as pain play.

"I see potential for a great deal
of fun," Bennett said, nodding.

"So um ... one of my boundaries
that you should probably know
about," Pips said. "Carrying.
It's kind of a situational thing."

"I thought you hated that,"
Bennett said, frowning.

"I hate being grabbed and
yanked off my feet against
my will," Pips specified. "If
someone asks, or I offer,
then that's different."

"Consent matters,"
Bennett said, nodding.

"Yeah, so, I have asked
Joshua to carry me before,
when I was pretty trashed,"
Pips said. "I'd be okay with
you, too, just ask first."

"Understood," said Bennett.
"Thank you for trusting me.
That's actually a great point
about boundaries -- they are
supposed to be semipermeable,
and they can go around anything
that you might need to protect."

"Oh?" Pips said. "Tell me more."

"First, think of healthy boundaries
like a dashed line," said Bennett.
"They keep out things you don't
want, but let in things you do,
and they're under your control."

"That feels familiar," Pips said.
"What about unhealthy ones?"

"Either too loose, letting in things
they shouldn't; or too rigid, keeping
out things you want," said Bennett.

Pips thought about the massive amount
of human wreckage that he had seen,
especially among other supervillains.
"Yeah, I know those too," he said.

"Different boundaries that people
typically have include physical,
sexual, financial, emotional, and
temporal," said Bennett. "You can
also find them by flipping types of
abuse, which violates boundaries."

Pips had cleaned up after enough
of that to know a lot of ways that
people could hurt each other.

Bennett was right, it really did
illuminate where the boundaries
went -- or at least, should have gone.

"So you can think about each part
of your life, and what boundaries
you have there," said Bennett. "If
any of those are unhealthy, then that
helps your family and close friends
understand where to take extra care
and where you might need help."

Pips sighed. "The height is a trigger,"
he admitted. "If someone picks me up,
or otherwise makes an issue of it, then
I can stop being rational really fast."

"If it comes up, should I protect you
or let you handle it?" Bennett asked.

"Depends on the situation, so use
your best judgment," said Pips. "I
am not necessarily the best person
to describe it. You can ask Joshua,
though, because he's seen it before."

"I'll do that," Bennett said. "On my end,
I have some pretty serious baggage from
my abusive ex, and I'm just barely starting
to work through that. If you see me acting
like a much younger person, that's a clue."

"What helps you then?" Pips asked.

Other than sneaking into a jail and
breaking all of somebody's fingers.

"I don't know," Bennett said. "It's
hard to remember." One corner
of his mouth quirked up. "Ask
Joshua, he's seen that too."

"I'll ask, and maybe we can
start figuring out things that
will help you," Pips promised.

"See, this is why it's a good idea
to talk about this stuff when you
are deepening a relationship,"
Bennett said. "It gives you
a chance to address issues
before they become problems."

"Yeah, this is why I wanted
to talk with you, because you
know this stuff," said Pips.

"Of course, boundaries aren't
just about what you want to avoid,"
Bennett said. "They can also act
as containers, things you define as
just for your partner or partners."

"Absolutely," Pips said. "I'm used
to managing multiple relationships,
well, not quite like this before, but
making sure that each person has
their own special activities and such."

You could go out gallytrotting with
your clan-cousins all you wanted,
but you'd better have something that
you only did with your brother-brother,
or people started getting jealous.

"I like having something unique
to do with each of my friends and
with the children," said Bennett.
"There's plenty that we've done
which neither of us will repeat
with anyone else in our family,
but what else do we really want
to get out of our relationship?"

"I want to feel like I belong to
something larger," Pips said.
"Even if I don't fit very well with
my clan, that's my blueprint for
what home life is like -- people
of all ages underfoot everywhere."

"That sounds great to me too,"
said Bennett. "Openness, honesty,
and communication are important
to me. Without them, things go wrong."

"I'm working on those," Pips said.
"That's why I came here, after all.
I like doing things together, as well as
one-on-one things with each person."

"We have some family traditions,
both between me and Jules and
with the Tulls," said Bennett.
"We could add more with you."

Pips smiled. "We've already
started that," he said. "I taught
them my favorite cookie recipe."

"That's wonderful," said Bennett.
"When a relationship meets
everyone's needs, that is what
makes it strong, makes it last."

"Most people's needs seem
to be pretty simple," Pips said.

"Well, sometimes what people think
they want and what they need can be
different," Bennett said. "We think we
want sex, but it’s not always about sex.
It’s intimacy we need. To be touched.
Held. Looked at. Admired. Smiled at.
We want to laugh out loud with people.
Feel safe. Feel like someone’s really
got us. That’s what we crave."

"Yeah," Pips said. "I want that."
He looked over the body maps again,
trying to sort them from least intimate
to most intimate, and then sighed.

"Problem?" Bennett asked,
leaning toward him.

"I don't know," Pips said.
"This is a lot to take in, and
it's hard to sort inside my head."

"Try this," Bennett said, reaching
over to flip through the tablet's menu.

"Circles of Intimacy?" Pips read.
"How does this thing work?"

"Put yourself in the center,
then other people in the rings
moving outward -- family, friends,
acquaintances, and so forth,"
Bennett explained. "You can
use the other tools to make lists
or images of who belongs in
which circle, or what you do
with people in each one."

"Okay," Pips said. He played
with it for a while. It was useful,
but ... "I'm not sure it quite fits."

"What doesn't fit?" Bennett said.

"Family," said Pips. "I mean,
I have you and the Tulls here,
but then there's everyone at home,
and that's supposed to be close."

"Touch the 3D button," Bennett said.
"That lets you create rings at an angle
to the ecliptic plane. People often
use it to illustrate different kinds of
relationship, like race or religion."

Pips found the button, activated it,
then discovered he could also
change the shape of the rings.

He created a long, narrow loop at
an angle, like the orbit of Pluto,
and labeled it simply Kin.

"Oh yeah, that's perfect,"
Pips said happily. It showed
that the Picts were different from
all his other relationships, that he
was closer to some than to others,
and a few giants were closer
to him than some Picts.

"I'm happy I could help,"
Bennett said. "This tool is
really useful for anyone in
nonstandard relationships.
We might not all draw the lines
in exactly the same places, but
we all need to distinguish between
closer and farther relationships."

"Yeah, I can see that," said Pips.
"It's easier to think about things
when I can map them out like this."

He had always been a visual thinker,
even before his eyes changed. It was
just stronger now than it used to be.

"That's good," said Bennett. "These
show a lot about trust and intimacy.
The closer the connection, the more
you're willing to tell or allow people.
We need deep relationships to be
healthy, not just casual ones."

"It's not always that easy,
though," Pips observed.

"Of course it's not always
easy," Bennett said. "That's
why it goes in stages, from
less intimate to more. It's about
about how much people know
about you, and how much you
trust them. Because if they blab
sensitive information, it doesn't just
hurt, it can cause serious problems."

"I've seen that," Pips agreed. "Folks
have to be able to keep their mouth shut."

Bennett nodded. "Discretion is important,"
he said. "Do you have people who can
shop for you without having to ask,
or people you can trust to make
vital decisions without your input?"

"Yes," said Pips. "A few back home,
and now some here." He smiled,
recalling how carefully Joshua had
tended him that time he got beat up.

"That's intimacy," Bennett said. "It's
what I have with Joshua as well."

"Yeah, but not everybody wants
that kind of closeness," Pips said.
"Some of this is really new to me,
and it still feels ... not bad, just weird."

"You'll get used to it," Bennett said.
"Being a father felt weird to me for
months, even though I loved it."

"Huh," Pips said. "I guess I
never thought of it like that.
Juggling relationships I know,
but commitment is unfamiliar."

"Commitment comes in layers,
just like intimacy," said Bennett.
"They're meant to move together,
and in fact, gaps between the two
can get uncomfortable and risky."

He showed Pips some images of
different commitment diagrams.

"Yeah, I've felt that," said Pips.
"It's part of why I reached out to
Joshua after the Big One. I realized
how much he and the whole family
meant to me, so I wanted to ... protect
that, make it more secure somehow."

"You're choosing to deepen the relationship
in response," said Bennett. "That's good."

"I sure hope so," said Pips. "I'm still
nervous about this, it's so new, and
I don't really know what I'm doing."

"I think you know it a lot more
than you believe it," Bennett said.
"Commitment is actually about
how tractive someone is,
or wants to be -- or not."

"Really?" Pips tilted his head.

"Yes, really," said Bennett.
"Some people don't really do
long-term, committed relationships
with obligations. That's totally okay.
Others feel isolated and miserable
without a close network of people
around them. That's okay too.
What matters is knowing yourself
and being honest about your needs."

"I'm working on it," Pips said. "I'm
not sure how well I understand
commitment. I've been ... 'playing
the field' doesn't seem like enough."

"You've also been completely reliable
within the bounds of your agreement
before this," Bennett pointed out.

"Well yeah," Pips said. "I had
to learn good contract skills."

"You were clear and competent
as an assistant, and Joshua adored
that," said Bennett. "It just wound up
going farther this time than before."

Pips poked at his memories. "I've had
a few bosses that I came to care about,
but each one of them felt different."

"That's normal," said Bennett. "Think
about reliance, though. Commitment is
about what you can ask of each other.
Do you have people you could wake up
in the middle of the night to help with
an emergency? Do you have people
for whom you'd drop everything?"

"Yeah," Pips said. "That's what I
did with the Big One. As soon as
I heard about it, I dropped everything.
I had to make sure that Joshua and
the rest of the family were safe."

"That's commitment," said Bennett.
"From there, it's really just thinking
about what you put at which level,
because not everyone is the same.
Consider what you regard as casual
or intimate. Once you have created
that progression, then you will know
where your relationships stand."

"I don't know if marriage is really
right for us," Pips said slowly. "I
want something serious, something
permanent, but I'm not sure that fits."

"Joshua and I had the same talk,"
Bennett said. "It's not for everyone,
especially after our disastrous marriages."

"I get that," said Pips. "I don't want to make it
worse, so warn me off if you need to, okay?"

"I will, but you're doing fine," said Bennett.
"It is important to talk about this process
with the people in your life, because there
are standard -- if not always accurate --
maps for heterosexual relationships but
not much beyond that. This is like how
gay men have to decide who pays for
a dinner date. We'll work it out."

"It's just ... I really don't want
to risk messing up what you and
Joshua have," Pips whispered.

"Trust me on this one thing, Pips,"
said Bennett. "If our two terrible exes
couldn't mess it up, you certainly can't."

"That actually is reassuring," Pips said.
"You are so good at fixing things.
I really love that about you."

Bennett smiled. "I love that
you're a Swiss Army minion."

Joshua had given Pips
a T-shirt with that theme.

Apparently, Bennett
knew him almost as well.
That was ... interesting.

"It's kind of hot how well
you know me," Pips said.
"I'm really into that stuff."

"I can see why," said Bennett.
"You devote a lot to observing
other people so that you can do
a better job taking care of them."

"Yeah, I do. I just don't get it
from other people very often,"
said Pips. "To have someone
truly understand your mind is
a different kind of intimacy."

"Mmm, so it is," Bennett said,
tracing a gentle finger along
Pips' arm. "Would you like
to do anything about that? We
have been talking a while ..."

Pips blushed a little. "I'm
pretty wound up, but I'm not
really in the mood for sex."

"There are sooo many
other things we could do
besides that," said Bennett.

"Yeah, I know," Pips said.
"I've done a good bit with
Joshua as well as you."

"Joshua isn't kinky, though,
he's vanilla," said Bennett.

Pips laughed. "If Joshua is vanilla,
he's as French as a hot, wet kiss."

"That's ... that's ... Pips, Joshua
and I have talked about this,"
said Bennett. "He's really not."

"When did you talk about it?"
Pips said. "Because he has
been pretty creative with me."

"Oh, a long time ago now,"
said Bennett. "I let it go."

"Maybe things changed,"
Pips said. "Or maybe he
knew enough about what you
like that he didn't think you'd be
compatible, rightly or wrongly.
I was a whole new factor."

"Huh," Bennett said. "So
what did you talk him into?

"Most of what we've done
has been his idea," Pips said.

"Really?" Bennett said, as
his eyebrows climbed toward
his hair. "That seems odd.
I mean, I get that Joshua is
dominant to you, but still, he's
not usually that adventurous."

"Yes, really," said Pips. "I
didn't want to push, you know?
So many people confuse kink
with sex, and I know that
Joshua is heterosexual."

"Tell me about it," Bennett said.
"Sure, I like pistachio butter and
jelly sandwiches, but sometimes,
well, I just want the pistachio."

"Yeah, me too," said Pips.
"I think it's different for me,
though, because I have kinky
and sexual orientations, and
then what I feel for a boss is
its own thing too. The last bit is
what Joshua was trying for, trying
to ... ah, make it good for me."

"Did it work?" Bennett wondered.

Pips could feel his skin heating.
"Oh yeah," he said. "It worked."

It had been one of the hottest things
he had ever felt, even though
it really wasn't sexual at all.

"Maybe you're right, Pips,"
said Bennett. "Maybe Joshua
and I met when we were both
so much younger that we didn't
know enough about ourselves
to tell where we matched up
and where we didn't, exactly."

"I think I just came at it from
a totally different angle, too,"
said Pips. "Because we didn't
have a script, we were free
to make our own ... however."

"That's a nice thought,"
said Bennett. "I think I'll
talk to Joshua about this."

Pips smiled. "Good idea.
It might open some doors,"
he said. "Think about it ...
all of us love taking care of
other people, but we also like
sensual things ourselves."

"We also tend to overextend
ourselves if we're not careful,
and need someone to take over
when that happens," said Bennett.

Pips leaned over to whisper in his ear.
"You know how Joshua gets when
the kids are running him ragged?
Imagine if we double-teamed him
and turned him into pudding."

Bennett sucked in his breath.
"Oh, I would love that sooo much,"
he said. "But what if Joshua isn't
into it as much as we are?"

"Then we have each other,
and some great fantasies,"
Pips said, shrugging. "Nobody
has to do anything they don't want.
But I think Joshua would like the idea,
at least enough to give it a fair try."

And once they had their hands on him,
Pips was confident that they could
rub, pamper, and cuddle Joshua
into a boneless puddle of bliss.

It wouldn't be that different
than some of what Pips and
Bennett had already done for
him separately. It would
just be a little ... more.

"So, what do you think
about power exchange
for tonight?" said Bennett.

"I am in favor of that," said Pips,
his body already starting to relax.

He loved surrendering, loved
the feeling of someone else's
control sliding around and
into and through him.

"Come on then,"
Bennett said as he
climbed to his feet.
"Give it up for me."

Pips looked up at him.
"Carry me to bed?"
he begged Bennett.

A slow smile curled
the older man's lips.
"I would be honored."

He scooped Pips
off the couch and
carried him easily
down the long hall.

"You're so strong,"
Pips whispered.

A chuckle rumbled
through Bennett's chest,
more felt than heard.

"It's the massage,"
he said. "That builds
quite a lot of muscle."

Bennett lowered Pips
gently to the bed, then
puttered around the room
for a few more moments.

"I put the hanger on the door,
so the boys will know to knock
if they need anything whenever
they get home," Bennett said.

"Oh, good," Pips said. "I'd
hate to be interrupted."

"Me too," Bennett said.
"I intend to savor this."

That was the thing about
fooling around with Bennett:
whatever you were doing, he
gave you his undivided attention.

"A night of intense platonic passion,"
Pips said, giving him a lazy grin.

Bennett stroked his hands over
Pips' arms. "Passion is energy,"
he said. "Feel the power that comes
from focusing on what excites you."

"You excite me," Pips said.
"You make everything that we
do feel new and incredible."

"How much would I have
to dim the lights in here
to see your lovely eyes?"
Bennett asked him.

"Half of this," Pips said,
going a bit breathless.

They hadn't done that
much before, because
it was so intimate for him,
and Bennett knew that.

The lights dimmed,
and Pips could hardly
see anything without
turning on nightvision.

"There now, that's better,"
Bennett said. "May I?"

His fingertip traced
the shell of an ear,
just below the glasses,
making Pips shiver.

"Wait, just let me turn
them off and deactivate
the safeties," he said.
It only took a quick touch.
"Okay, go ahead now."

Delicately Bennett lifted
the glasses away and then
placed them on the nightstand.

"There you are," he murmured.
"You have the prettiest eyes
that I have ever seen."

Pips blinked, the world
fresh and raw against
his naked eyes. He
always felt vulnerable
with his glasses off.

After a moment, though,
he adjusted. It wasn't
overwhelming in dim light,
it was just ... intense.

The light and shadows
played beautifully over
Bennett's skin, hinting at
his swiftly growing interest.

Bare eye contact was dazzling.

Intimacy danced between
them like static electricity,
little snaps and zaps of
unexpected ecstasy.

"How much clothing
do you want to wear
while we snuggle?"
Bennett asked.

Pips struggled
to think. "Mmm ...
not too much of it,"
he said. "Just enough
to remember what we're
doing and not doing now.
Underwear, I think."

"That sounds good,"
Bennett said. "I'm going
to unwrap you now."

"Mmmkay," Pips said,
already limp in contentment.

Bennett carefully unbuttoned
the shirt and peeled it off.

He removed Pips' socks,
then unzipped the pants
and worked those off too.

Bennett folded everything
and set it on the table that
stood near the foot of the bed.

Only then did he remove
his own clothing, slowly
and sensually, inviting
Pips to enjoy the view.

There was so much to see
with his glasses off, everything
unfiltered and spilling over him
all at once, the warm glow of
heat and the sheen of sweat
and the glimmers of electricity
like heat lightning under the skin.

Bennett loomed over him,
large and reassuring.

A firm hand wrapped
around Pips' ankle.

"I could tie you down,"
Bennett said. "Make sure
you can't move, and do
everything for you."

"Mmm," Pips said. "I
love to be tied up, love
the pressure, but that
makes it harder to cuddle.
I really want to be held."

Bennett grinned at him.
"I know just the thing."

"Yay," Pips said softly.

"I'm going to the sitting room,"
Bennett said. "Be right back."

He was always so careful
to make sure that Pips
knew where he was
and what he was doing.

Rummaging sounds from
the other end of the room,
and then he came back.

"Give me your foot,"
Bennett said, and
Pips obeyed him.

Grip, lift, and then
Pips felt something
slide over his foot, like
a soft, stretchy half-sock
with a long clingy strap
for extra ankle support.

He could feel it hugging
his foot, and a tingle as it
touched his superpowers.

"Ohhhh," Pips moaned.
"Is that -- is that dexflan?"

"Mmm-hmm," Bennett purred.
"A client needed these, and
I liked them so much that
I got another set for kink.
Gotta love pervertables."

He put another ankle binder
on the other foot, then ran
his fingers over them.

"Very good," he said.
"Now give me your hand."

On went a fingerless glove,
making the naked fingertips
feel exposed and vulnerable.

Bennett nibbled on one.

Pips whimpered. "Oh,
please, do that again."

Bennett nibbled on
a different finger, then
put the second glove on.

Pips was trembling all over.
His skin was so excited, it felt
like it was about to crawl off.

"Shhh," Bennett said, stroking
smooth hands over his body
until Pips relaxed. "Settle."

Pips felt completely helpless
and yet completely safe.

Energy washed over him
in slow waves, like a tide
and Pips was the sand.

"There you go," Bennett said.
"Those are safe to wear for hours
at a time, so you can feel the bondage
without being tied to anything. They
won't get in the way of snuggles, either."

Expertly Bennett rolled Pips onto
his left side, then climbed into
the bed and spooned behind him.

"We should sooo do this with
Joshua," Pips murmured.

"I'd enjoy that," Bennett said.

"Maybe we could squish you
between us," Bennett said.
"Or if it's cold, we could put
Joshua between us and
warm him up. He's let me
do that a few times before."

Pips imagined the scene
with a roaring fire and
a snowstorm howling
outside, though they'd
have to be on vacation
in the mountains for that.

He gave a happy wriggle.
It'd make a great vacation.

"Have to tell Joshua that,"
Pips said. "Think he'd like it."

"I think so too," said Bennett.
"Of course, the deepest moments
of intimacy occur when you’re not talking."

Pips could still feel the dexflan binders
hugging his wrists and ankles, with
Bennett's arms snug around him.

Then Bennett reached down to tug
a light cotton blanket over them.

Pips gave a contented sigh. Even
when their mouths weren't moving,
their skin still kept talking to each other.

He stopped speaking so he could listen to it.

* * *

Notes:

This poem is long, so its location, content, and Pict notes will appear elsewhere.

Comments

[wispfox]

Italics took over around here:

"I think that family history is
a veryBennett said firmly. "

Fixed!

[ysabetwordsmith]

It should be fine now.

For some unknown reason, the DW posting tool started refusing to handle longer posts -- like it's re-rendering the whole thing after every key push. 0_o The HTML view still works better, so I can put in the formatting, but I can't see what I'm doing. That runs up the error rate. Sorry for the hassle.

Re: Fixed!

[wispfox]

"DW posting tool started refusing to handle longer posts -- like it's re-rendering the whole thing after every key push. 0_o The HTML view still works better, so I can put in the formatting, but I can't see what I'm doing. That runs up the error rate."

Ugh! That's no good at all. I can definitely see why the error rate would go up.

And no hassle on my end. :)

Re: Fixed!

[ysabetwordsmith]

Yeah, they must have changed something in the programming. I think it's trying to send and retrieve all the time in Rich Text mode, which is crazy. It's like trying to have a realtime conversation with someone on Mars. The lag is enough to fuck it up. So then I have to do the formatting in HTML mode or offline, which sort of works, but it's too hard to check my work. >_

Re: Fixed!

[mdlbear]

Maybe put in a bug report?

I don't know whether composing offline and pasting into the form would work for you. I did that for a while when the posting client I was using stopped working and before I could put together something different.

Re: Fixed!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Maybe put in a bug report? <<

I am neither sure how to do that nor sure it would prove useful.

>> I don't know whether composing offline and pasting into the form would work for you. I did that for a while when the posting client I was using stopped working and before I could put together something different.<<

It sort of does that. I do it for notes sometimes. But it's really awkward for longer things; I can't see what it's supposed to look like. So what I did instead was paste something into the LiveJournal post maker, which still works normally, then copy the formatted material to DW. It wastes time and energy, but less so than working offline or in HTML mode.

Fixed!

[ysabetwordsmith]

Try it now.

Re: Fixed!

[wispfox]

Thank you!

Also, this was very sweet and lovely. :)

Re: Fixed!

[ysabetwordsmith]

I'm glad you liked it.

Oops!

[ng_moonmoth]

There's a spot about a quarter of the way down where everything goes wonky. Looks like there's some missing text, then the whole thing goes italic.

Right here:

>> "I think that family history is
a veryBennett said firmly. "No shame in it." <<

Will pick the story back up once it's been put straight.

Re: Oops!

[ysabetwordsmith]

Fixed. Something ate a line.

[(Anonymous)]

Line marker for 1875 is still there.

Fixed!

[ysabetwordsmith]

Got it, thanks.

What Even is Love, Anyway?

[heartsinger]

A) This is lovely and made me think a lot.


B) You have given me half an excuse to talk about some things I've been pondering.

People say a lot of things about love, and there are three in particular that exist in tension with one another:
1) love is "unconditional"
2) love exists in action
3) leaving someone who mistreats one does not mean one never loved them

These three things cannot all be true:

If love exists in action, one cannot love someone they've cut out of their life. I've heard the idea that keeping someone in your thoughts is enough, but when people are talking about love existing in action, that's not really what they say.

If love is "unconditional" it cannot end or it wasn't real. But if we've established that love exists in action, then one can't love someone one's cut out of one's life, and therefore cannot ever have loved them. So the love can't have been real.

I can't reconcile these three concepts. I tend to take the view that it is good and healthy for love to be conditional. Not on minor things or even major life choices, but stuff like not abusing someone. But the idea that real love is unconditional is fucking everywhere. And, like, I get it, the desire for someone who'd stick by you even if you were being awful makes perfect sense, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

I'm fairly certain we're lumping too many concepts into the word "love", but that isn't making it possible for me to sort them out.

I additionally hear that one doesn't have to like someone to love them, that it's not about feelings so much as doing right by someone, but I can't understand how that differs from the concept of duty.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> A) This is lovely and made me think a lot. <<

Yay! :D That's one of my favorite comments. I like making people think.

>> B) You have given me half an excuse to talk about some things I've been pondering.<<

Cool! I like that too.

>> People say a lot of things about love, and there are three in particular that exist in tension with one another:
1) love is "unconditional"
2) love exists in action
3) leaving someone who mistreats one does not mean one never loved them

These three things cannot all be true: <<

They are all true. The key is that they're all optional. Any one or more of them can be true, or not, for a given type or instance of love. And "unconditional love" is one type of love, but it isn't the only type.

There are many types of love. The ancient Greeks had 8 words for love:
Eros (romantic, passionate love)
Philia (affectionate love)
Agape (selfless, universal love)
Storge (familiar love)
Mania (obsessive love)
Ludus (playful love)
Pragma (enduring love)
Philautia (self love)

Each of those has its own traits.

>>If love exists in action, one cannot love someone they've cut out of their life. I've heard the idea that keeping someone in your thoughts is enough, but when people are talking about love existing in action, that's not really what they say.<<

Love is both a noun (an emotion) and a verb (action that expresses deep affection). Love exists in action, but that doesn't mean it exists only in action. If it required action -- a display of affection to the other person -- then we wouldn't have "love from afar" which is quite common, though more popular at some times than others. In fact that's what "romance" meant originally: worshipping an unobtainable love interest from a distance.

So if you cut someone out of your life, you might still love them but choose to stop acting on that emotion. Or you might simply be far apart and your actions would change. It could shift to a different type of love.

>>If love is "unconditional" it cannot end or it wasn't real. <<

Unconditional and unending are not necessarily the same thing. And just because something changes doesn't mean it wasn't the original thing at all. People in unconditional love might be pulled apart by circumstances, and eventually move on to fall in love with someone else.

>>But if we've established that love exists in action, then one can't love someone one's cut out of one's life, and therefore cannot ever have loved them. So the love can't have been real.<<

That's the kind of argument that makes people question whether they've ever been in love, or create impossible standards that make it seem like love can't exist. But it does exist, and people care a lot about it. So we have to come up with descriptions of love that fit actual observations.

Most young people go through phases where they love different things. One year it's cats, another year unicorns, the next dinosaurs. The dinosaur T-shirts of this year do not make last year's unicorn bicycle any less real or any less loved.

>> I can't reconcile these three concepts.<<

Try taking them one at a time. They aren't glued together.

>> I tend to take the view that it is good and healthy for love to be conditional. Not on minor things or even major life choices, but stuff like not abusing someone. <<

I agree. However, some love is conditional and some is unconditional. Even if you love someone unconditionally, that doesn't mean you have to stay and let them mistreat you. You can leave and still love them. In fact that's very common; abuse survivors often struggle with lingering love, sometimes even downright unwilling love.

>> But the idea that real love is unconditional is fucking everywhere. <<

One type of love that is commonly considered unconditional is a mother's love for her child. It isn't always that way, but very often it is. A mother whose child does something heinous may continue to love them anyway, but disapprove of the behavior. This doesn't mean that other types of love are any less real. Hell, some people don't believe same-sex love can be real, and that's hogwash.

>> And, like, I get it, the desire for someone who'd stick by you even if you were being awful makes perfect sense, but that doesn't make it a good idea.<<

Again, loving someone and staying with them aren't the same thing. Love just makes it harder to leave, and indeed, is one of many reasons why most abuse survivors take multiple attempts to escape and stay gone.

>> I'm fairly certain we're lumping too many concepts into the word "love", but that isn't making it possible for me to sort them out.<<

Try exploring different words or phrases for separate types of love, and then look at what tends to define each type.

>> I additionally hear that one doesn't have to like someone to love them, <<

That is true; love and like are two related but different emotions.

>> that it's not about feelings so much as doing right by someone, but I can't understand how that differs from the concept of duty.<<

I would classify that as duty rather than love.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

>>So if you cut someone out of your life, you might still love them but choose to stop acting on that emotion.<<

Cutting someone from your life temporarily or permanently may he an act of love (though it is only sometimes beneficial).

Another wordlist for different-things-called-love-in-English:

love

a — love (for inanimates only)

ab — love for one liked but not respected

azh — love for one sexually desired now

áazh — love for one sexually desired at one time, but not now

sham — love for the child of one’s body

aye — love which is an unwelcome burden

oham — love for that which is holy

áayáa — mysterious love, not yet known to be welcome or not

am — love for one related by blood

ad — love for one respected but not liked

ashon — love for one not related by blood, but heart-kin

éeme — love for one neither liked nor respected

ralhoham — love for evil

Also, see:

donidan - lovingkindness

https://laadanlanguage.com/english-to-laadan-l/

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[ysabetwordsmith]

Brilliant, thank you, I should have thought of that. The whole point of that language is to provide words for all the stuff women want to talk about that don't fit well into English.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

Welcome. Not sure if emotional daclensions work on the love-words, but then you'd be getting real specific. (English "I love him" -> Laadan "I love my heart-brother for a good reason and there's something to be done about it.")

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[ysabetwordsmith]

They don't seem to be designed exactly that way, but the suffixes could be tacked on.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, maybe we also need a word for "love that is being used to manipulate someone" - I keep running into that one:

"You love the children ao you'll work with them for free."
"You love me so you shouldn't say no to me."
"You love your vocation; what do you need more money for?"

And yeah, you can love kids, your relative or your job...but that doesn't mean other people should value you less because of it.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[ysabetwordsmith]

That would be useful, although I suggest distinguishing between genuine love that someone else is attempting to use for manipulation, and using love as an argument for manipulation on the assumption that such love exists or should exist when it does not actually exist.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

So... 'chain-love' [1] as distinct from sacrificial true love [2] as distinct from I demand you sacrifice because you chain-love x-person(s) [3]?

1 chain-love - love expressed to the detriment of oneself without choice, often involves forced emotional labor: "Work for free for the company/your coworkers," "I love you, so let me tell you [unhelpful, painful thing] against your wishes"

2 sacrificial true love - acting to benefit of loved one, but detrement to self (may not always be smart or right but is always a free choice with whatever info you have at the time): jumping a grenade, giving your kids the last of the food, risking death so someone won't die alone, giving someone up for a better life

3 a demand for chain-love, often rudely assuming a yes - "Oh, teachers will die for their students in school shootings, because they love the kids. " "Oh, nurses have a calling, we dont need to pay them more."
"I demand you work for free, give up your time, watch this kid, incubate this proto-human, die for x, all because wuv"

See Also:

4) demanding emotional labor with expectation it is owed (not a copper-digger, as a copper-digger exchanges different wealth for work provided)

Gold digger =/= entitled mooch
Copper digger =/= enritled person who [4]s

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[mdlbear]

A lot of wisdom in here, as well as in the poem. Lots to think about.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[ysabetwordsmith]

*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.

I really like writing smat, and the kind of romance that features nonstandard forms of love, because all the mainstream usually offers is sex-based stuff and there's so much more to explore. That means more different types of stories for everyone to enjoy, in addition to more representation for diverse types of orientation.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

>>I would classify that as duty rather than love.<<

I think it could be one or the other or both.

If its purely love, you are going beyond the scope of what you'd usually do (and you usually have the 'I'm glad to be here with you'/'I'm happy that you are happy' feelings).

If it is purely duty, you have a framework of Things You Expect Of Yourself* - stuff like protect children, or don't make extra work for others, or don't hurt people.

*Or occasionally other people's expectations (i.e. a job.)

Another way to look at it: love is specific to the person, duty applies to anyone who meets X criteria [a kid, a patient, a relative].

And yeah, they blend.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[ysabetwordsmith]

That makes sense.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

I've done emotionally laborious things for love, for duty and for both. So, I have...enough examples to recognize a pattern in the data set.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

This took much longer to write than I would have liked. Some pieces repeat but I could wordsmith this for a year and not be happy with it.

>>Cool! I like that too.<<

Oh, good, there is a very loud part of my brain that is pretty much always trying to convince me whatever I'm going to say is incorrect in some way, such as insufficent relevance to the topic. Realtime communication can help in some cases, but in others it makes it worse because whatever my problem is I need to say Exactly The Right Thing.

>>They are all true. The key is that they're all optional. Any one or more of them can be true, or not, for a given type or instance of love. And "unconditional love" is one type of love, but it isn't the only type.<<

I mean, I can buy that, but it is one thousand percent not how people talk. I see all the time stuff that basically says you're relationshipping wrong if you don't have all three.

>>There are many types of love. The ancient Greeks had 8 words for love:
Eros (romantic, passionate love)
Philia (affectionate love)
Agape (selfless, universal love)
Storge (familiar love)
Mania (obsessive love)
Ludus (playful love)
Pragma (enduring love)
Philautia (self love)

Each of those has its own traits.<<

It's an interesting list, I've seen it before. I find the distinctions muddley, different places talk about it different ways. And the pieces still don't fit right.

>>Love is both a noun (an emotion) and a verb (action that expresses deep affection). Love exists in action, but that doesn't mean it exists only in action. If it required action -- a display of affection to the other person -- then we wouldn't have "love from afar" which is quite common, though more popular at some times than others.<<

I mean, I've seen a lot of arguments that that's obsession, not love.

>>So if you cut someone out of your life, you might still love them but choose to stop acting on that emotion. Or you might simply be far apart and your actions would change. It could shift to a different type of love.<<

But what does that feel like? What does it look like? I can understand caring about people from far away, because I care about a lot of people I don't get to see often. But with my father... I don't know with my father. I don't know if I care. Maybe I'm hiding from it. The entire world seems to say it's impossible not to. Of course, the entire world is not known for accuracy.

>>Unconditional and unending are not necessarily the same thing. And just because something changes doesn't mean it wasn't the original thing at all. People in unconditional love might be pulled apart by circumstances, and eventually move on to fall in love with someone else.<<

Conceded, allow me to rephrase: if unconditional love ends because someone was behaving horribly, it can't have been unconditional. And if unconditionalness is required then it can't be love. If unconditionalness isn't required then I guess that works, but I'm salty about people getting it wrong.

>>That's the kind of argument that makes people question whether they've ever been in love, or create impossible standards that make it seem like love can't exist.<<

True. I said I loved my girlfriend when I was fifteen. I didn't mean to, because we'd met a week ago and I don't believe it's possible to sufficiently know anyone enough to really know that in a week, but after I said it it felt true. Still don't know what the hell it means. Especially since it turns out I was absolutely right and the person I saw was highly incomplete in some ways that allowed trouble to happen to other people. Feelings are just really annoying. There's no way to prove them, they just sit there inside. No microscope, no scale, no ruler, just words and sensations. It's awful. Qualia, ugh.

>>Most young people go through phases where they love different things. One year it's cats, another year unicorns, the next dinosaurs. The dinosaur T-shirts of this year do not make last year's unicorn bicycle any less real or any less loved.<<

I mean, true. I guess I always took it as implicit that the whole thing about How To Relationship Correctly was about people, not stuff. Or fictional people.

>>Try taking them one at a time. They aren't glued together.<<

grumble Then people are being imprecise and incorrect in their speaking and I don't like it. grumble

>>However, some love is conditional and some is unconditional. Even if you love someone unconditionally, that doesn't mean you have to stay and let them mistreat you. You can leave and still love them. In fact that's very common; abuse survivors often struggle with lingering love, sometimes even downright unwilling love.<<

I have certainly tried to care less on purpose and just. like. failed. completely failed. utter failure. words fail me about how useless that was. But I think it was kinda necessary. I couldn't stop caring, but I did function. That's important. Of course, this is a very neat story to tell myself so I feel less like screaming over all the unnecessarily wasted time.

>>Hell, some people don't believe same-sex love can be real, and that's hogwash.<<

Agreed. May they all get a clue.

>>Try exploring different words or phrases for separate types of love, and then look at what tends to define each type.<<

It's damnably inconsistent and sometimes incomprehensibly vague. I'm still frustrated by the difficulty in distinguishing romantic feelings from strong nonromantic* feelings beyond "kissy" and "not-kissy" (a distinction which doesn't work for all people, but so far has been true for me.)

>>That is true; love and like are two related but different emotions...

I would classify that as duty rather than love.<<

I get liking someone and not loving them, that happens all the time. But I don't understand what the difference between simply feeling a duty toward someone and loving but not liking them is. Love, separated from duty, is mostly about feeling deeply warm and fuzzy about someone, isn't it? But warm and fuzzy is a kind of liking, too. And people tell me it's not possible to just,,, not love people with certain roles in your life (no matter how unnecessarily difficult they make everything), so I keep trying to find something that matches beyond, like, wistfulness for someone I needed that they were never gonna be and a certain degree of "cannot allow to be hurt" and "Well It's Expected And Someone Better Be Responsible Around Here (Fuck Knows It Won't Be Them)". Maybe I'm hiding, but I"m usually pretty good at understanding my feelings (apparently, though if my intrapersonal intelligence is so amazing, the rest of the world needs help) and I can't find anything. Now this wouldn't be the first time the world was wrong about something, but the other half is that if somehow you really don't have a bunch of warm feelings, it's because you're, like, a bad person. And the world is almost always being entirely too reductive when it says things like that, especially when it's about feelings, but it's really hard not to worry about it. And it's not impossible I'm repressing. But I've been thorough, and believing I'm fundamentally wrong about how I feel is a known error state.

*I concientiously object to the word "platonic" to mean "non-romantic non-sexual" because I find Plato's thoughts on love generally sexist and objectionable.

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[(Anonymous)]

>>I mean, I can buy that, but it is one thousand percent not how people talk. I see all the time stuff that basically says you're relationshipping wrong if you don't have all three.<<

People are... not 100% reliable.

Is your source usually reliable? Biased in some way? Benefitting from whatever viewpoint they're pushing? Have they been exposed to pitfalls in their system? Have they been exposed to alternate systems?

>>I find the distinctions muddley, different places talk about it different ways.<<

Languague is often imprecise.

>>I mean, I've seen a lot of arguments that that's obsession, not love.<<

As I see it:

Obsession = I love you, I want you, I need you...why won't you do/be what I want?

Love = I love you, and you don't need to do anything about that. I'm here if you need me. If you want me to step back I'll do that...

>>Feelings are just really annoying. There's no way to prove them, they just sit there inside.<<

Qualitative, not quantitative, subjective not objective. And our culture finds it convenient to invalidate that which cannot be quantitatively proven.

I mean...its hard to quantitatively prove someone is hungry, cold or in pain, but those are real.

In most cases, bystanders should just believe a persons lived experience.

In a few cases a person might compensate for hmm, feeling-processing in other ways: visually checking numb body parts for injury, or heading g inside when a friend does, or planning meals on a schedule.

I think the same basic ideas could theoretically work on emotions...

>>...about people, not stuff...<<

Most people sort their mental files that way, but not everyone.

>>...and a certain degree of "cannot allow to be hurt"...<<

I think...I can want an individual person to be safe and happy and have a good future etc even if I don't want to deal with them.

Ultimately they're your feelings, label 'em however works for you.

>>...(apparently, though if my intrapersonal intelligence is so amazing, the rest of the world needs help)...<<

I have spent years trying to convince someone that dragging people into activities they are not comfortable with is bad regardless of intention.

Also that if people hurt you (even without meaning it) than it is sensible to avoid people.

[Headdesk]

...honestly, anyone remembering to treet retail workers and waitstaff as, y'know, people, is a hedge of the curve at this point.

>>Now this wouldn't be the first time the world was wrong about something, but the other half is that if somehow you really don't have a bunch of warm feelings, it's because you're, like, a bad person. <<

In my experience people who demand warm fuzzy feelings are usually more priviliged than thou and expect something* from thee.

*Usually emotional labor. Or general unpaid labor, or both.

People who demand free stuff are jerks [at least in that moment in time.]

Re: What Even is Love, Anyway?

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>Oh, good, there is a very loud part of my brain that is pretty much always trying to convince me whatever I'm going to say is incorrect in some way, such as insufficent relevance to the topic. Realtime communication can help in some cases, but in others it makes it worse because whatever my problem is I need to say Exactly The Right Thing.<<

If nothing is going to be good enough, then don't worry about it, because worrying about it won't change it. Just do your best.

>>I mean, I can buy that, but it is one thousand percent not how people talk. I see all the time stuff that basically says you're relationshipping wrong if you don't have all three.<<

Well, consider the source. Are you hearing that from people with 70 years of marriage or the guy who's tried 5 times and failed all of them? Is the culture stable or has it got high rates of domestic violence and divorce? America is a rape-friendly garbage fire. I'd look three times before taking their advice on relationships.

Just because people say things, doesn't make it true. America also used to think it was okay to enslave people, and still practices genocide. Sometimes people are wrong, even in large groups. Does the statement seem logical? If you test it, does it work? Or at least work better than other models you have? With relationships, I prefer to look for sources that might actually be competent.

>>I mean, I've seen a lot of arguments that that's obsession, not love.<<

It can be, but doesn't have to be. The same is true for many types of love.

>> But what does that feel like? What does it look like? <<

I don't know. It's really not me. If I cut someone out, I tend to mean it in ways that most people don't.

>> I can understand caring about people from far away, because I care about a lot of people I don't get to see often. But with my father... I don't know with my father. I don't know if I care. Maybe I'm hiding from it. <<

Well, if you don't know, then you might care a little but not a lot. If you cared a lot, you'd probably know that.

>> The entire world seems to say it's impossible not to. Of course, the entire world is not known for accuracy.<<

Exactly. People might believe it, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. Look for evidence for or against. Look for other possible explanations. And if you don't find anything convincing, you can choose not to take a stance!

>> Conceded, allow me to rephrase: if unconditional love ends because someone was behaving horribly, it can't have been unconditional. <<

I suspect that many people who thought their love was unconditional have discovered it had some conditions like "don't hit me" or "don't murder people."

>> And if unconditionalness is required then it can't be love. If unconditionalness isn't required then I guess that works, but I'm salty about people getting it wrong. <<

You have every right to be irritated that people have given you wrong information. In their defense, however, this society doesn't handle relationships well and has little formal teaching about how they work and what's healthy or not. A few schools have it, there are even college degrees on family development, but it's not common. Most people are getting it from peers, and if you ever overheard tween sex talk in the bathroom, that's about the quality of relationship advice in America.

>> True. I said I loved my girlfriend when I was fifteen. I didn't mean to, because we'd met a week ago and I don't believe it's possible to sufficiently know anyone enough to really know that in a week, but after I said it it felt true.<<

That can happen. It's not very common. Like at first sight happens too.

>> Still don't know what the hell it means. <<

Many explanations have been proposed. Likely more than one is true in different situations. They include but are not limited to:
* The other person smells good to your body because of pheromones, which have strong influence over emotions.
* Their body language, ideas, etc. resonate with you -- which is much more striking if this is rare. They just seem to "get" things that others don't.
* Both of you are currently looking for new friends or lovers, which makes a tighter bond.
* You know each other from a past life.

>>Especially since it turns out I was absolutely right and the person I saw was highly incomplete in some ways that allowed trouble to happen to other people. <<

Bummer. But then at that age, most people are incomplete in ways that cause trouble. That's teenage for you.

>> Feelings are just really annoying. <<

So very true.

>> There's no way to prove them, they just sit there inside. No microscope, no scale, no ruler, just words and sensations. It's awful. Qualia, ugh.<<

Well, you can do some things with emotions.

I really like Plutchik's wheel of emotions because it shows different feelings can be more or less intense and how they relate to each other. That can help you think about whether you feel something just a little bit, or a lot; and whether you feel more strongly about this item or that item.

You can learn about how physical sensations and emotions have a feedback loop, each affecting the other. So for instance, if you know that, then when you're saddled with an emotion you don't want, you can try to break it up by changing your physical stance or actions. A classic example is deep breathing for calm, when you're freaking out and want to pant. Panting will make you freak out worse. Slowing it down will make it harder for your feelings to run away with you.

Did you know that feelings manifest in different parts of the body, and the patterns are pretty consistent? You can map your own too.

>>I mean, true. I guess I always took it as implicit that the whole thing about How To Relationship Correctly was about people, not stuff. Or fictional people.<<

Now think about people's relationships with food, or alcohol, or money. Those can be good relationships or very bad ones. Poor relationship skills can fuck you over with more than just people.

Also, lots of folks get attached to fictional characters or celebrities they've never met. It's more common for people to feel that than not to feel it. When someone famous dies, we feel sad -- sometimes extremely sad -- because we had a relationship with that person even though it's mostly one-way.

>> grumble Then people are being imprecise and incorrect in their speaking and I don't like it. grumble <<

Totally justified. Some of them are really wrongheaded about it. Others are merely ignorant or misled.

Consider that it's hard to separate things if you've never seen them separate. People conflate sex/gender because the two almost always match. You only start noticing they're different when there are counterexamples.

But I think that most people just don't know as much about emotions or relationships as they think they do. If they did, the world would be a very different place. We wouldn't have the "boys don't cry" meme or a sky-high divorce rate.

>> I have certainly tried to care less on purpose and just. like. failed. completely failed. utter failure. <<

That can be a very difficult thing to accomplish. It takes an average of 7 times for a woman to leave an abusive partner. A plausible explanation is that evolution set it up that way so people wouldn't run off and get eaten by saberteeth. But I suspect that Europe's history started with one person, probably a woman, who said, "Fuck it, I'll chance the saberteeth," and started walking and didn't stop until she was clean out of Africa.

>> words fail me about how useless that was. But I think it was kinda necessary. I couldn't stop caring, but I did function. That's important. Of course, this is a very neat story to tell myself so I feel less like screaming over all the unnecessarily wasted time.<<

If you try your best to do a hard thing, and fail, it's not wasted effort. It matters that you tried. Maybe you made a little progress, or maybe you learned something. At least you didn't sit on your ass and ignore a problem. Maybe if that problem comes up again, you'll do better.

>> It's damnably inconsistent and sometimes incomprehensibly vague. I'm still frustrated by the difficulty in distinguishing romantic feelings from strong nonromantic* feelings beyond "kissy" and "not-kissy" (a distinction which doesn't work for all people, but so far has been true for me.) <<

I am a gender scholar and have yet to come up with a clear distinction between those. Once you throw out kissing, the distinctions all seem to be about either depth, or nothing more specific than a different "flavor" of feeling.

>> I get liking someone and not loving them, that happens all the time. But I don't understand what the difference between simply feeling a duty toward someone and loving but not liking them is. Love, separated from duty, is mostly about feeling deeply warm and fuzzy about someone, isn't it? <<

It depends on the type of love. Some is warm and fuzzy. Some really isn't. A lot of mothers talk about love as separate from liking, and it's often quite a fierce thing, more about protection.

>> And people tell me it's not possible to just,,, not love people with certain roles in your life (no matter how unnecessarily difficult they make everything), <<

Oh, it's possible all right. Love is a feeling, not an obligation. You can't force it. Some people don't feel much connection to others, and some feel a lot. Some expected they would feel it and then nothing happened, so they feel bad about themselves. Others own up to it. But they're less likely to talk about it openly if it makes people go apeshit. For example, parents who don't love their children:

https://toxicties.com/parents-dont-love-their-children/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-experience/201510/8-reasons-parents-fail-love-their-kids

https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a22189/i-regret-having-kids/

Sometimes mother-love takes a while to develop:
https://postpartumprogress.com/when-bonding-isnt-immediate-feeling-like-you-dont-love-your-baby-enough

And some parents never do love their children:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/6n8372/i_dont_love_my_kids/

>> (apparently, though if my intrapersonal intelligence is so amazing, the rest of the world needs help) <<

I certainly think it does.

>> but the other half is that if somehow you really don't have a bunch of warm feelings, it's because you're, like, a bad person. And the world is almost always being entirely too reductive when it says things like that, especially when it's about feelings, but it's really hard not to worry about it.<<

Feelings just are. Shaming people for them is really destructive. It is difficult or impossible to change how you feel. Actions are different, those are things people choose. This doesn't stop the world from outright attacking people for having emotions that are disapproved. "All feelings are valid" is a psychological truth, and an ethical truth, but it is absolutely not a social truth and if you believe it is then people will destroy you. Only a very limited range of emotions are socially acceptable in a given situation. That's a problem.

>> *I concientiously object to the word "platonic" to mean "non-romantic non-sexual" because I find Plato's thoughts on love generally sexist and objectionable.<<

Some other options:
https://www.powerthesaurus.org/platonic_love/synonyms

exploring ideas

[callibr8]

Ohhhhhhh wow. Gorgeous. Glorious. Hawt. Educational. There were nine sections that spoke to me so strongly that I've excerpted them to talk over with my beloved. He knows he's welcome to read the whole poem, but he's not really much of a reader, so ... excerpts. I forsee some fabulous conversations ahead!

Mille grazie!