ysabetwordsmith | On Emotional Labor

*boggles*

*joins you in boggling*

Hey, I eat the legs of chickens by preference!

So do I. White meat, meh.

Thirded on white meat. I'll eat it, but it's not my preference.

I am most prone to chopping white meat for use in leftover makeovers. Add gravy and mushrooms to it, then pour the results over a pot of noodles. Quite tasty then.

White meat is also good for chicken soup or jambalaya.

Noodles, broth and tomatoes for us. Simply because we don't buy the powdered gravy, and we don't use enough mushrooms to justify canned or fresh. Meanwhile canned tomatoes last forever. LOL

...

Still not a bad combo though. We love mushrooms like nothing else, yum.

-Fallon~

I will not make with the boggle, but that is fascinating.

I saw that in action, though, so I guess that's the difference.

My grandfather was in the wars and saw things; he worked for American for years.

Meanwhile my grandmother raised six kids, wrote all the households correspondences, and even made sure the children (When they were adults and had their own) all got the same amount of payout.

Now that she is gone; the balancer is no longer there, and some few of the family members are seeing how truly shelf-serving and greedy grandpa really is; and how much favoritism he is playing.

Some refuse to see it, and it pisses one of them off to the point where she will sometimes use me as a vent pipe for some of it. Not all of it anymore, thankfully, but still some.

So yes; truth here.

I once read an article about loneliness that noted old men are at higher risk. Because after their wife dies, people stop coming by to visit, as he never realized that his wife was calling and inviting them to come.

Excellent point. Also, the "Cat's In The Cradle" factor if he was an emotionally-absent father. Without the mother's presence as an attraction, the kids may not care any more about him now than he did about them when they were younger.

Yyyyyyeah. That song is a hurty, hurty warning about family ties. :(

It's also why I hate the advice, "Be a parent, not a friend." If that's what you do, then the relationship either breaks instantly or soon peters out after the kids become adults. There's nothing left. If you haven't built a friendship before then, it's not magically going to appear on their eighteenth birthday.

That it is, and I recognized it as such instantly even as a young teen.

It's possible to be on friendly terms with your child while still having authority over them; my partner illustrates that well. But the kind of person who believes that "advice" is most likely an Authoritarian, or someone with Authoritarian tendencies, and one of the cornerstones of that philosophy is that you don't lead by reward, you lead by punishment. And then, as you say, the child gets out on their own and, more or less swiftly depending on just how bad things were at home, they drift away... unless the child themselves has Authoritarian tendencies and accepts the chains of the Red Family role structure.

Only because my brain does the "find the exception" thing, I'll note that there *are* times when the advice can be decent - say, if a parent has to be really rough on a child for a bit.

Like: I saw a psychologist in a news or internet column suggest a parent, whose child might have ADHD, to set up strong consequences for misbehavior in the relevant settings. At first, I thought it was cruel (partly because most childhood punishments for me were far too severe for not staying quiet in class) but I realized that this made sense, assuming the consequences (and hopefully, the rewards for good behavior) were enough to encourage the child's best efforts.

I'm still leery of it - most folks with problems like ADHD can go "normal" for a while with effort - and oftentimes, the stimulants used make that effort *far* less. (For anyone who doesn't know, I take strong stimulant meds, and they aren't enough, but they're far less "not enough" than nothing.)

All of this is to say, I could see that parent being told "look, you're a parent, not a friend. You're not going to be strict forever - just until you feel comfortable that you're getting through and encouraging good behavior; once you see whether a child's normal, self-interested effort is, or isn't, enough, you can let up."

All that said, yes, you should be a friend when parenting; you just have to put the job first, which is common in just about everything.

And yes, my first thought when I hear someone offer that advice stripped of context, is that it's likely to be someone pushing authoritarian methods.

>> Like: I saw a psychologist in a news or internet column suggest a parent, whose child might have ADHD, to set up strong consequences for misbehavior in the relevant settings. At first, I thought it was cruel (partly because most childhood punishments for me were far too severe for not staying quiet in class) but I realized that this made sense, assuming the consequences (and hopefully, the rewards for good behavior) were enough to encourage the child's best efforts. <<

In what way does this help a child live with the brain they have? It does not. It's meant to force them to be pleasing to others, at their own expense, and punish them if they fail or refuse. Their ability is rarely if ever taken into consideration, their needs even less so. It's about trying to force children to be whatever someone else wants, instead of being themselves. Neurovariant. Gay. Touch-dominant. Whatever.

Hell, they're down to making normal children sit still so long it's causing nerve damage. I have no sympathy.

>> I'm still leery of it - most folks with problems like ADHD can go "normal" for a while with effort <<

Consider how much effort it takes to pretend to be something you're not, all the time, because what you are is unacceptable to the people who hold total power over your life. Sure, they can do it for a while. Some years. It's why we're seeing a huge upswing in teen breakdowns. After a few years of school, the kids are exhausted and falling apart.

>> and oftentimes, the stimulants used make that effort *far* less. (For anyone who doesn't know, I take strong stimulant meds, and they aren't enough, but they're far less "not enough" than nothing.) <<

If it works for you, that's great.

But let's not forget state-dependent memory. Suppose you drug a child for a decade or two, through most or all of their school career. As an adult, that person may decide the side effects or risks exceed the benefit -- or not have the money now they're expected to pay the dealer themselves -- and stop taking the drug. Everything they learned in school, along with the rest of their childhood, is in the "+stimulant" part of the memory bank. It is now harder to access when not drugged. Much the same as drunk memories are harder to access when sober. That's a very serious problem, and basically nobody is paying attention to this.

>>All of this is to say, I could see that parent being told "look, you're a parent, not a friend. You're not going to be strict forever - just until you feel comfortable that you're getting through and encouraging good behavior; once you see whether a child's normal, self-interested effort is, or isn't, enough, you can let up." <<

If you have a child who is misbehaving, this may work. If you have a child who is neurovariant, they are never going to wake up one morning and be "good" and neurotypical. It'd be like expecting your gay kid to turn straight, which also doesn't happen, although gods know people try to make it. Once you start using force, you have to keep it up, or you lose everything and then some. Hence the kids who get out of school and say, "I'll show you! I'll never read another book again!" And they DON'T.

Yeah, I knew this was a dumb idea. Oh well.

>> Like: I saw a psychologist in a news or internet column suggest a parent, whose child
>>might have ADHD, to set up strong consequences for misbehavior in the relevant s
>>settings. At first, I thought it was cruel (partly because most childhood punishments
>>for me were far too severe for not staying quiet in class) but I realized that this
>>made sense, assuming the consequences (and hopefully, the rewards for good behavior)
>>were enough to encourage the child's best efforts. <<

>In what way does this help a child live with the brain they have? It does not. It's
>meant to force them to be pleasing to others, at their own expense, and punish them if
>they fail or refuse.

I think that, in general, encouraging a child's best efforts is a good thing, and the best way of finding out what they can, and can't do. And if encouraging best effort shows they can't keep quiet in class, now you know that - and can set appropriate goals. On the other hand if it shows they can, great - problem solved. That's part of being a parent - helping children realize they can do more than they think, sometimes.

If it works for you, that's great.

But let's not forget state-dependent memory. Suppose you drug a child for a decade or two, through most or all of their school career. As an adult, that person may decide the side effects or risks exceed the benefit -- or not have the money now they're expected to pay the dealer themselves -- and stop taking the drug. Everything they learned in school, along with the rest of their childhood, is in the "+stimulant" part of the memory bank.

I take strong stimulants. I just told you that. And I'm really pissed off that you're telling me what you're afraid they're like, when you're sitting on the outside, and I'm sitting here on the inside, and could actually *tell* you some things if you *asked*.

>> I think that, in general, encouraging a child's best efforts is a good thing, and the best way of finding out what they can, and can't do. And if encouraging best effort shows they can't keep quiet in class, now you know that - and can set appropriate goals. On the other hand if it shows they can, great - problem solved. That's part of being a parent - helping children realize they can do more than they think, sometimes. <<

It's great, if people try things and adapt if those don't work. I have seen less of this than I would like.

>> I take strong stimulants. I just told you that. And I'm really pissed off that you're telling me what you're afraid they're like, <<

Sorry the part where I upset you.

>> when you're sitting on the outside, and I'm sitting here on the inside, and could actually *tell* you some things if you *asked*. <<

I said, if they work for you, that's great. You're not the only friend I've got who finds such things life-improving. I'm glad they exist for people who find them helpful.

I also have friends who have found them life-destroying. A majority of those folks had no choice in the matter, and are now stuck with very serious consequences of other people's decisions about their bodies. Some of these folks have agitated for less drugging of children. I look at the rates of drug use on children -- many of these that weren't even tested on children, but were intended for adults originally -- and this concerns me. Sometimes it works out well, other times it's a disaster. I sympathize with the times it doesn't go well.

Since my own experiences with drugs have been iffy -- there are a lot that don't work right for me, and not so many that perform exactly as advertised -- this inclines me to be cautious.

Look: you conflate medical malpractice, coupled with neglect and/or abuse, with medical treatment. That's an ugly thing to do to someone for whom the issue isn't merely hypothetical.

And I wish I could say that your position was egregiously uninformed, but it isn't - it's what everyone seems to think. It's still harmful and wrong, but, granted, it's not egregiously uninformed. There are far too many blanket banquets going on.

(You see, after a breeder boy-bovine's blanket banquet, you end up with a mess of bullshit made up out of whole cloth.)

But you threw a new blanket-pie in my face, probably proud of how it showed your Deep Concern For The Children. And what it showed was that you were uninformed, but glad to spread fear.

Often the people that give that advice miss not only what a parent is but what a friend is. They assume that friends are utterly indulgent and want someone to lead into the same temptations they are succumbing to.

Sadly, such 'parenting' has been seen, but real friends aren't like that. The good parent knows how to give a kid just enough head to learn from their mistakes without unconscionable consequences. So that by the time they are 18 they can be trusted not to bring about the end of civilization.

>>Often the people that give that advice miss not only what a parent is but what a friend is. They assume that friends are utterly indulgent and want someone to lead into the same temptations they are succumbing to.<<

Exactly. Which means those people probably make bad friends as well as bad parents.

>>Sadly, such 'parenting' has been seen, but real friends aren't like that. The good parent knows how to give a kid just enough head to learn from their mistakes without unconscionable consequences. So that by the time they are 18 they can be trusted not to bring about the end of civilization.<<

Yeah, it worries me how many teenagers are treated like toddlers until 18, and forcibly prevented from learning how to make their own decisions. Then they're suddenly given control of a car and a crotch, and everyone is !!surprised!! when it ends in disaster. 0_o

Good parenting involves letting children learn from making safe mistakes, and gradually increasing their leeway, until by 17 they're making most of their own decisions and not too many mistakes, so that it's a short step up to legal adulthood.

Worth mentioning, T-America has better scaffolding in place for this with things like driver's ed, voter's ed, babysitting and parenting classes, bike licenses, etc. -- those are all designed to give young people experience that builds toward independence.

The sad thing is even this Earth used to be better at this. I fear the combination of suburbs and the comic book code have set us back in ways we will have to reckon with for many more generations.

Painfully true. :(

He was emotionally present when he was home, but a lot of it was physically and emotionally abusive, although the family will deny much of that and just say "that's just how he was."

But he'd only be home like 10 days then have 2 weeks gone; 1 week; three weeks gone, etc, so I'm not sure it counted for much more than "Brief trauma while it happened" because Grandma made the days without him pleasant enough to where not a lot of it stuck. So far as I'm aware; but all I truly have is second-third hand stuff from mom and others.

-Fallon~

>>He was emotionally present when he was home, but a lot of it was physically and emotionally abusive,<<

That sucks.

>> although the family will deny much of that and just say "that's just how he was." <<

Yyyyyeah. I have relatives who are obnoxious. They can be who they are, but I don't want to be around them.

>> But he'd only be home like 10 days then have 2 weeks gone; 1 week; three weeks gone, etc, so I'm not sure it counted for much more than "Brief trauma while it happened" because Grandma made the days without him pleasant enough to where not a lot of it stuck. So far as I'm aware; but all I truly have is second-third hand stuff from mom and others.<<

I'm glad your family had Grandma to rely on for much of that time.

Yeah, it does. I've heard a few stories of family vacations where not so nice things have happened on the way to or from.

...

Me, too. I'm not sure where my Mom would be in terms of her stability otherwise. As it is, I've suggested she seek counselling for a lot of the issues she now has with Grandpa because of how I see them affecting her relationships with others, including my dad. I'm not quite sure she's taken it yet, though she finally admitted she probably should.

I miss her though; She died of Altzeimer's some number of years ago that I can't remember off the top of my head.

-Fallon~

>> Me, too. I'm not sure where my Mom would be in terms of her stability otherwise. As it is, I've suggested she seek counselling for a lot of the issues she now has with Grandpa because of how I see them affecting her relationships with others, including my dad. I'm not quite sure she's taken it yet, though she finally admitted she probably should. <<

Counseling can be useful, if it is accessible, affordable, respectful, and well matched to one's problem and personality. When there are conflicts or intrapersonal issues, it's useful to consider. Pressuring people is counterproductive, but expressions of concern are more often okay.

This page has some decent tips about how to encourage someone to seek therapy. Understand that you may need to make the suggestion repeatedly -- leaving enough space between so it doesn't sound like nagging -- before she agrees. But if she's gotten as far as thinking she should try therapy, then look for ways you can lower the barriers and make that as safe and easy as possible. Is she moved by social ties? Look for friends of hers who have found therapy helpful. Is she more about logic? Frame it as an experiment, go for a few sessions and if doesn't pan out, try something else.

Also, there are many resources online that talk about family dynamics and related issues. If she's a self-starter, much of the good can be gotten from the information alone. I usually do way better at solving my own problems than other people can. Out of the FOG is a favorite site for coping with relatives who have issues.

>>I miss her though; She died of Altzeimer's some number of years ago that I can't remember off the top of my head.<<

:( I miss my grandmother too.

She's unfortunately not a self-starter; she's often (like me) afraid of things getting back to the wrong people, and if she (which I don't know) has any shame of being in therapy, that could be a hinderance.

I will, however, look at the sites when my brain is less...weasly.

It was hard to watch her go down hill, and my mom just about lose her shit for various reasons.

She was a fantastic lady, though, and I miss her reading to me, which she used to do while growing up. She was the one who introduced me to Calico Cat and Gingham Pup," "Spider and the Fly," etc. If I could find the book those powemss were in, "I've never Seen a Poem As Lovely as a Tree" was in that same book) ... I'd be hard pressed not to buy it, or at least pick it up to hold. The memories of her reading them are that strong in us.

-Fallon~

I can believe that.

This is part of it. But the other part is that he chose to come back to Florida after Mom said she couldn't take care of him anymore, and expects her to cave. Which she hasn't; and so now it's making him amad and he's blaming my dad for her not coming over...and there's a whole lot of other things that go into this that I may PM you about because it's an ongoing years-long mess that I don't want to write publicly, and she's not getting the support she needs because inheritance, and Gramps has been known to change thinge when it suits him when he can get away with it.

That said, the article is pretty much spot on there because Grandma was the one who planned most of the outings and whatnot. When she did he had no clue how to do any of that. He has either Mom or one of his other daughters handle his finances (or the bank now) because he hasn't a clue how. ... My dad would be in the same boat, though, I think, if Mom died. Difference is, I think Dad would bone up and deal.

-Fallon~

On Emotional Labor

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On Emotional Labor

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